Tonight i am speaking with betty about her new book the other madisons. You can purchase the book directly from talk about one a cappella books and also a link provided on the website. As were talking we invite you to submit your questions and i will try to get to as many as time allows a retired physician and geneticist and the nominated essayist. Following a 30 year quest to confirm the lineage routes for a new generation thank you for being with us. I am happy to be a part of this program. Most of us grew up thinking of James Madison one of the founders of the country and the bill of rights what did you think or what we you told growing up . Just like anybody else. As an important figure in American History but i was also told he was my great great great great grandfather. So he is my ancestor. And you were told always remember you are and madison coming from african slaves and the president. What does that mean to you as a child . To me it set some clear expectations and was intended that i was reminded of my Family History and to have slaves in my family so there was a lot to live up to. And your mother carried stories of your lineage and those that were enslaved eight generations going back to this is the feminine so tell us about that tradition of your family. That tradition goes back thousands of years probably before the birth of christ so those who maintain the entire culture with its value forever. But primarily it is a tradition of oral history. So this carries throughout your family and your mother tells the story there was a slide presentation that she gave to organizations in the eighties you call it the black madison lecture circuit. And handed this role to you when she gave me the box. What was in the box . In the box death certificates, marriage licenses, amazing hand stitching that it is a very fancy embellishing. There were slave senses and newspaper articles. Anything that could be gathered and put together. What did it mean to receive the box . It is a big responsibility and that it is my responsibility to take care of the box in the contents and to be responsible to make sure the stories did not die and are passed on through generations. So i wasnt sure how i really should handle it. My mom created the box before that my greatgrandfather collected the documents but he lost it during a move and he was devastated. So i didnt know if i should try to make sure that didnt happen again or should i tell the stories to the people who were interested . I decided on the latter because there were so many important things that were so important not just my family stories by enslaved people and their descendents and people represented that were africanamericans with the message of persistence and love i thought it was important to share. You talked about a sense of ambivalence. Many obstacles covered, a lot of emotional freight. Your mother had a reference for the madison family with pride and meaning and strength. Would love to hear some of your feelings. Because you had more ambivalenc ambivalence. I did. I grew up in the sixties. So i came of age during the black power movement. So i felt licensed to take more of the uncomfortable side and talk about them head on which is very different from the way my mother looks at it. She was very proud of president madison and in some way reassured and comforted by having Something Special in her family background. And that set her apart from those who were experiencing the difficult part of being black in america. That she grew up during jim crow into very strict mother. You were alluding to heading these things head on she was kidnapped from africa as a teenager, purchased by James Madison senior, he sexually assaulted her, she bore his child. In james junior who became president raped karine who bore his child so not only rape but also incest mother was reluctant to call it that and it was courageous for you to have that conversation. Can you talk about that . I remember this pretty well. Sitting on the floor with papers around me because i was think did she really recognize what this was . I said did you know president madison is a rapist . She said really . I said yes. That is what they were. She was quite uncomfortable with that term. And the term that she preferred was visiting. What did that mean for her to frame it like that . I am interested in the dynamic because it is such a part of what you confronted not just able to find historical record but your own family the histories they carried with them and in a way you were batting at a sacred cow. Yes. I was the first to take up the bat not only my mother that my grandfather use the term visiting and explained what it meant my mother discussed it with someone else and they were very uncomfortable talking about actually what happened in a straightforward way. And with that approach with those types of questions. But you would get at the unvarnished truth that had gone unchallenged. The official history is that James Madison did not have any children with his wife from dolly madison. She was a widow and had a son with a married but the story your stepfamily tells details the life of james and karines son jim that was sold off at dollys urging. Give us a recap i know its complicated and the life but a sense of what you heard about his life . Jim was madison and karines son. About the time he was born one of dollys nieces came to work with them at montpelier. And hired him to be his wetnurse. So the story goes that should put jim on one breast and the baby on the other breast and nurse them to gather. Over the years they became very good friends. And they fell in love with each other when they were in their teenage years. Dolly found out so she sold jim he ended up in tennessee and never saw his mother or father or victoria again. Just a heartbreaking story and one of just many heartbreaks. See you decided you would try to find these unnamed people and in 1982 you make your first of many trips to montpelier the madison Family Plantation and traveled to portugal and africa and several states and like so many people descended from slaves whose lives were not considered important enough to document a lot of trails went cold but there were some breakthrough moments when you care to share any of them . In terms of whatever you discovered along the way. There are so many little gems to find more about your family. It was difficult because names are often not recorded or separated and i tried but it was very difficult to find out exactly where he had gone. But the trail takes up with his son emmanuel so there is documentation of him so we know of he was so he was owned by billingsly who was famous later in texas so we hope to trace back to jim. When i say we the three of us that were doing research to gather. That my cousin came across the 18 thirties slaves census. Because the man he found was not a slave it was shadrach madison. So we believe that was jim so now trying to verify the shadrach. And at the same time and originally owned by the family they had an unusual first name shadrach but then when they were freed they chose the name madison. Which speaks to the always remember you are a madison. Katrina williams thank you for writing this book she says what about trying to rewrite the narrative around slavery to be as indentured servitude . They are deniers. In some ways its not unlike lara who didnt want to talk about the painful past is just a part of American History. It happened. Its a very important part because the country would not have been what it is. That comes across so clearly in the book the role of dependency as and emotional support he went to portugal and research the origins and then twisted the moral code to rationalize that so why take on the physical and emotional experiences . What did they add to your sense of the family story . They help to understand who i am. I grew up in the solid middleclass environment so i had no idea of what my enslaved ancestors had gone through i thought that i was missing part of myself so i looked for them for all the places that you name and montpelier literally walking in her footsteps which is a profound experience and then i got an inkling of what my ancestors had gone through and how they help to shape me. And i learned a lot the sense of balance and hope and the values and passing down to all descendents its true for all families not just mine. So you just three yourself in all the way and to understand that depravity and inhumanity with these trips that you went on that to confirm the lineage but also through dna enlisting the help of doctor Bruce Jackson what about authenticating your families dna . Where did that lead you . Doctor jackson with the genealogy if you compare that they can say i told you. You are not related. So the National Society identified one man who has the appropriate genealogy and was willing to participate in the comparative dna. What happened shortly after that coming from my research in washington he did not want to get involved in the brouhaha and since then i was not interested in that and that the dna and the truth that other non africanamerican families but thats not what is important. You have been asked many many times would it matter if you did get proof that you were descended from James Madison . Or that you are not and you came to an interesting place with that. If i did get proof it would be great for my book. [laughter] but it is much more than marketing but understanding who you are to honor and respect the slaves and that you have an opportunity to contribute just as much as they did to the country. Its about knowing who you are. Do you have any sense of role the faith and religion played with your ancestors how have they informed your own view . My enslaved ancestors as most slaves were but that sense of community and an important to our values and passed down to all of us including myself this part of daily sense of who i am. Thank you for sharing your family story have you been in contact of other enslaved families like Sally Hemmings. Tell me more about that. On two occasions one was university of virginia i cant remember exactly but a symposium with the university with a sense of james monroe and Thomas Jefferson and those that were owned by the university i was at montpelier Monroe Jefferson and washington so yes i have met them. You built so many relationships in this journey several that work at montpelier and many others but this is the most elite called the father of the constitution to have the sacred fire of liberty which at the very foundation be at this is a man who comes up with a political compromise calling them three fifths human you managed to flush out the people that aaron the slave descendent line how do you make sense of these contradictions or does it matter who he was. Doesnt matter who he was . That is a good question and a tough one. I think it does matter. Its hard to balance out it would be great if he lives up to those ideals but he didnt he didnt free a single slave. George washington that he did freeze some slaves washington and Thomas Jefferson and those that were direct descendents that the closest he claimed to that to philadelphia and the contract madison sold to the northerner knowing that assuming eventually he would be freed that madison himself did not freedom. So they had this strange dichotomy with these lofty ideals but not truly being able to live up to them. So thats the way we do things here. And not to flesh out but as far as acting on it. What positive or negative reactions have you received from your book . So far i have only had positive reactions. I am guessing there will probably be controversy and people are disputing the account and the dna test from the Sally Hemmings family. Building relationships speaking at workshops and symposiums to reexamine and the historical narrative to who is included there is a movement that wants to contextualize how we remember with that story of Sally Hemmings or the Atlanta History Center to contextualize lost cause civil war monuments how would you like your family story to be reflected at montpelier . The first time i went to montpelier was 1992 that was six years before the hemmings family. They were ahead of the game already and the day that i arrived, the first time i could see the site and they were trying to learn who the slaves were, what they did and how they played a role in James Madisons life in Mount Hillier. They were already doing this. They have continued to do that. They have always been supportive and interested in my story and corines name is up on the wall where other slaves are listed. And annette permanent exhibit and thats is something allamerican should see. And at Mount Hillier and how they were dealt with i would like to say there were millions of slaves and individuals. And so that encourages the feedback. What does that mean to have that more inclusive picture of American History . It is the whole story. It is the real story. It is the voices that were not heard. African slaves really were not able to speak for themselves that from new york city all over the country from boston with the mark of the slave. The story of your family is amazing i love the book your message of what its like to be black in america what would you like women in particular to take from your story . As i was writing the book i imagined saying that they would passed out those same qualities that they would tell their own children about those qualities so that is the chapter so one specific message i want to convey is that it could happen in any setting. And within marriage. I did want to portray that to all women that marriage doesnt necessarily offer a haven from being sexually abused. There is a lot there for readers to dig into sexualization of africanamerican women. That was a tough chapter. The little girl there is a likelihood they could be raped and nothing their mothers can do about it. Think of the racial divide i wonder if that interconnectedness of families are part of the healing . Dont want to say women as sex partners should be celebrated that that dad is present among us can be subverted to come together as a family. Thats a long question. [laughter] it disappeared so i cannot reread it. But that interconnectedness part of the healing instead of that that binary way. Within families . I sometimes wonder if that interconnectedness of families can be part of the feeling one healing women as sex partners should not be celebrated but the denial of humanity that is present among us can be subverted by the descendents coming together as a family . Yes. It is an outreach i have the pleasure of meeting a descendent of wine of madison sisters. And she has shared with me that my cousin used the history the same way that we should all come together to withhold the truth of her family background. And to recognize the healing that it definitely brings. How do you feel about president madison now . Any different than before your research . To be honest i feel angry with him. Its only different when i have clarity. He use one of his enslaved women the one thing he didnt do he didnt stop dolly from selling jim. So i lost a connection to an ancestor so yes. Im disappointed in him as well. There are so many stories people can look forward to like one forcing the master not of the grit and fortitude your great grandfather from cedar creek over the right to vote and of course so much more about the journey you go on to find those things out. There are so many names left out of the official record. Names you just want to put out there. The first is the first african ancestor in america. Mentioning emanuel and they had a ton of children. Fortunately most of them kurds stay together. But in that family and that generation my greatgrandfather and i kid go on to name all eight of them. And my beloved grandfather. A wonderful family. I appreciate you sharing that story with us tonight. We got our lovely note from connie bloom you just mentioned. She says this is a real story im proud to be her cousin i would love to see her another descendents and i to come together and talk about our history. I will never be mad at you. Thank you. [laughter] so all is resolved in that part of the world. Thank you for joining us tonight. It has been a real pleasure. Thank you for having me. Thank you for tuning in be will air the edited version and with that virtual author talk series about the new novel ask again tuesday may 12th and then to talk about the new memoir called stray. You can see a video from other events thank you again so much its a pleasure