Transcripts For CSPAN2 Books About Technology 20240713

Nine companies, the same companies that control the lions share of patents, that of an extraordinary of money that are able to attract the best talent because of the best food, you know, that have the relationships with universities here it doesnt mean there are not other Companies Like salesforce or nvidia over for not doing Amazing Things but its through these Nine Companies that Everything Else flows. The entire ai ecosystem in some way or another touches these nine. In addition to all of the things i just mentioned, they are also building the frameworks and the custom silicone chips and they have the code bases. All roads lead to these Nine Companies, and the challenge that i have is that if its the case that Artificial Intelligence is not just being built to create a better microwave, although thats cool, but instead to optimize our lives using data as currency, what does it mean when we relegate that are just a handful of companies and handful of people working at these companies who probably dont look like us and dont have the same worldviews as us, what are the longerterm downstream implications of that look like . Three of us companies are in china. They are publicly traded companies but i lived in china, i also lived in japan anybody who watches china knows that publicly took companies are still under the thumb of beijing. There is no escape. You could be an incredibly, if you are an kindly successful ceo it is because you are in lockstep in some ways with the chinese government. That matters because china currently has a brilliant brilliant person at the helm. President xi jinping is very, very smart. Hes a very effective leader and is a a very good longterm planner. China has a culture of longterm planning, and you could go back to register a look at a lot of their big Strategic Initiatives and a fiveyear plans and felt lot of them really never amount to anything. But i think things are different this time because we have a person in power and a Leadership Team around him who really understand technology. Youve probably heard of the belt and road initiative. So this seems like an Infrastructure Initiative figure building bridges and roads in exchange for debt diplomacy all around the world, all along the old silk road route as well as deep into latin america and africa. But what most people dont realize is that this isnt just about building physical bridges, physical roads. This is a digital component as well. So 58 countries are part of the digital side of the pri. Theyre getting 5g. Chinese psyche. Theyre getting Small Cell Technology and also getting something called chinese social credit score system. There are parts in Southern China right now where you might be at an intersection and if you jaywalk, which is illegal there, smart cameras placed around the intersection will recognize who you are. You can have your face covered or be obscured by the systems are very, very smart and they can recognize you by gait, posture, eye how your walking. So if youve caused an fraction your face gets thrown up on a digital billboard at that intersection along with your name and where you work, and that information is transmitted to your employers and to your family members. If youve done it more than once you might be told to report to a local police precinct. You are demoted. Your total score as a chinese citizen is taken down a few notches. The opportunities to earn points if you have done something good. Somebody report meritorious work and then you might get a few points up. This is a program that is intended to be national that hasnt yet rolled out nationally and you may be saying to yourselves, well, thats china. I dont live there so this is very interesting, but who cares . Let me tell you why this matters to you. First of all, the system already has prevented 17. 5 Million People from buying airplane tickets. More than 17 Million People last year couldnt fly. 5. 5 Million People couldnt buy a train ticket and 300,000 who did really great jobs at work, their scores were too low and they were as a result disqualified from ascending to management positions. These are not just ethnic minorities are being discriminated against. This is a shot at huge social control. And again you may be saying to yourself, listen, you had me at talking microwaves. I dont know what all of this necessarily matters to me, and the reason it matters is that bri. If its the case that china is aligning itself with all of these countries around the world, many of which are economically vulnerable or theyr available for any other number of reasons because of Climate Change or because they have political unrest, and they are inching toward authoritarian leaders. The social credit score system is a real good option for those places. It helps keep the populace in control and china is exporting this to various different places. Places. Why this matters because while we fix it on teacher wars and building big ships and bombs and thinking about missiles in the sky, what we forgotten to look at this what happens if china wages and economic war which effectively blocks this at a places or forces us to come to terms that we dont like or understand . This potentially prevents us from doing business come from us traveling, and it potentially reshapes the world in a new world order or china is that just a pacing threat, a militaristic and economic pacing threat, but china becomes a formidable global threat to all of us here thats china. In the United States there is an antagonistic relationship, a transactional relationship on good days but an antagonistic relationship more often than not between the valley and d. C. What winds up happening is that lack of understanding, there are not enough relationships, the valley does what it wants until somebody gets upset and then they apologize and then they do the same thing again over and over and over again, until one day when you have somebody like Elizabeth Warren who starts demanding that they are broken up. You cant break up these companies. There are many reasons why some of them have to do with strategy, some of them have to do with the nuts and bolts of technology but this is not like bell. Remember when the bell company got broken up into baby bells . This is not telephoning. These companies have multiple divisions and their intertwined and very complicated, and if the United States is going to continue to defund science and if its going to continue to defund our Education System and technology, then who is going to build up the future of ai among other parts of science and tech and Everything Else . You cant just break these apart. It doesnt work that way. In the process of arguing back and forth, in the process these companies are competing against each other rather than collaborating. This sets us up inch by inch, little by little your daily permission is being taken away. I no longer have the ability to back my car into the crotch with rate upon footballing because somebody whos and a part of a small group was part of a small ai tribe decided it would going to optimize my best, healthiest life, and is probably unsafe, like you were probably unsafe even though weve never been in a car accident, so i dont have control over the balding in my car. That seems insignificant but theres a compounding effect over time. We are all part now of this process thats unfolding in slow motion here you heard the of the frog in the pot and the water slowly over time boiling and you dont realize it until the frog is dead. I dont want to be the dead frog in the pot. I realized that some slight hyperbole but there so many things that are happening that we turned a blind eye to that at some point there is no way to turned turn this back, theres a switch, though singular switch for ai. Theres no Single Person in charge and at the moment we have no National Leadership on this issue. President trump issued an site and second order but that order on Artificial Intelligence is not selfexecuting. We do not have budgets. We do not have singular department of charge. We do not have Institutional Knowledge spread throughout our federal government. We have a lot of smart people but theyre not in the right places, and in the valley we have incredibly smart people who i do think what to do good by and for society, but who are instead constantly dealing with market demands. So let me be clear on this. I dont think the big Nine Companies and certainly not the g mafia which is our part of the big nine, i dont think they are evil. I dont think they intend to do more. I think weve got herself into a situation where the system is broken. Weve opened up our archives to look at recent other programs about technology next, reporter anna wiener recalls her expenses working for tech startups. The ceo of the company in seller cisco was 24 when entering the company. I was 25 so worldly experienced miles beyond him. He had been the company that traffic isnt terribly hard thing to do to run a company full of adults come completed m have dependence or debt or whatever. I didnt envy anyone in a position. You self select for the position if youre lucky. I have a lot of sympathy for someone who is growing up at the same time they are learning how to be a ceo. The reason i dont Name Companies or executives, one of them is i feel the behavior that i saw institutionally as was individually was more a result of a sort of structural position that any individual failure. I realize thats an exculpatory narrative or exculpatory framework, but [inaudible] but thats its not to be coy or offer a puzzle for people to solve, although im sure that [inaudible] im not against puzzles. I think its a sort of common leadership style or more to do with incentives with the Business Models than of the industry, and then to maybe illustrate this, i told this anecdote at another reading. [inaudible] i feel like im walking into these readings with my own book and its like im an American Girl doll. Like, here i am with my book. [laughing] so i read anyway, i think is in new york so we came up to and after reading and they had read my book and images a scene in which i talk about how early members of my team were brought into a Conference Room and our manager asked us who are the five smartest people that you know . Bite their names down. We all did this exercise. Then look at your list. Why dont they were care . Was one of them Abraham Lincoln . [laughing] i was like why would they were care . This doesnt make sense. Theyre assuming of useful the useful things to the world, interesting things do in the world. Why would like my friends were in graduate school well, not that they would make their way to tech, but why would these people who are smart and talented an interest in other thinks the why should they be working at this Analytics Company . Im here because i dont know what my purpose is in life. Its that hubris and idea that these five smart people should work and because it economic value. Heres the thing come to think that hubris is how it is conducive to work . This is the anecdote on telly in my book. Sorry. Its a long story, i apologize. I feel like i i should have one line answer for everything. This woman came up to and me ar this event and she was like, the same thing happened at my company. Actually i was at the first i heard this. Another woman texted me to say this was like deja vu for me. I cant believe this happened either they must have all read it on a i was told in the room and asked to write down the names of the five smartest people i know at a totally Different Company unrelated come ceos probably are not friends. If you like theres a thing that happens in this culture that has to do with the intellectual culture that tech has fashioned herself which i would call antiintellectual but is more about that in the book, too. But that has to do more with people revisit advice, theyve never run a company before. They have a ton of money and a ton of accountability and attentive responsibly to their employees. How to lead so they read a a bg post that heres a you can scale hiring and get really good people for your core team that will set the team for the rest of your company. Corral your employees and a competent and asked them who the smartest people they know a push them to accoutrements he will pay you five or 8000 per recruiter i tried so hard to recruit people who were or were not the smartest people i know. [laughing] anyway, i think that the industry has values. You can speak to this as well, you may have seen this in your excellent book like investigation of uber. Its called super pumped by mike isaac that he will be signing afterwards. I think the Company Cultures assayed by the Business Model action in the business incentives and those are shaped by the incentives of the interest of Venture Capital say the participation speed and scale and acceleration coupled with the libertarian spirit of industry that has been incubating for 25 years, 30, 40 years. 2020, longer, 50 years. You kind of get this weird cultural product i dont know what im talking back, im sorry. Im just for it. Im going to touch isnt this on cspan . All right. Its fair to say theres a lot of i guess im wondering if theres parts of your experience that you take with you that others might appreciate. [inaudible] a lot of tech folks who think again, tech is doing good for the world and unabashedly a positive thing. Even questioning that, kind of dangerous sometimes. I guess im wondering, like if there are parts that you appreciated that you took away from your time in tech . And if you say no, thats fine. No, there is. This is like, i think the heart of the book is ambivalence, so i think there was a lot that i appreciate about working in tech. I dont know if in my 30s i would go back and appreciate the same things to be totally honest. I havent be the right agent have the right yearnings to be sort of an ideal employee in a certain way. But in my 20s having just moved here not knowing anyone from a different city, being told fusion meaning, run with it. It. I think what i admired and appreciated was the camaraderie, the sort of commitment to a, project, the collective project if you will. I liked that people seem to have autonomy for a little while. I think thats also part of the problem is people have autonomy who dont necessarily have the authority to have that autonomy or shouldnt necessarily, but there seems to be some potential in that he will often like the people with the most autonomy just replicates, you know, power structures that exist. Initially that was exciting to me. There was one more thing that it really did enjoy and appreciate about startup culture. I think its earnest in the sum who is constantly vacillating between like detached mockery and like deep painful earnestness. I i dont know if you can relat. [inaudible] anyone who yeah. They might be wrong but i genuinely believe people in tech you think theyre doing good for the world, believe they believe it and i dont trust them when they say. I think whats missing is more of like, i think the problems assistant. I dont think they are necessarily at the individual but of the curious what you think about that given your reporting on uber. But i do wonder, like do you, i dont know if youre legally supposed to answer this question, you just moved here but did you like someone i heard someone say that uber couldnt exist if it didnt have this basic culture my question is like, should it exist . Obviously that culture, that culture shouldnt exist and if you do that culture and the comp doesnt happen, maybe thats fine. But [inaudible] is that when youre going with this . [laughing] i think youre getting at the exact right thing. I think like, if you boil down how all of this works, youre getting investment in your company. You have to hit the next level, whatever that is what is users or raven or something, and for most Companies Get canned contes have to start doing things that might not be legal, right. I dont know, i think it is just make into a lot of this works, i also think, i think theres justification. Like the people who are already in the space, the encumbrance, protected in ways that are not necessarily fair and you can kind of like believe, im not saying this is wrong. Theres your own reason for doing a lot of this stuff. And also just go back to my own argument, i do think people are in this same structural position and they are not ass calls. Im not calling them with specific you have to be a jerk to do well in industry, depending on who the ceo is. You are watching booktv on cspan2 with other programs on technology from our archive. In september of 2019 microsoft Senior Researcher mary gray report on the workforce that drives Large Technology Companies Like amazon, google and uber. You are probably familiar with the category of what will call online offline Platform Services anything from uber, lip, stored as come use the same mechanism. If the api Application Program interface put at the request for somebody come pick up the suit, deliver to this address and the platform is participate in that exchange by recording when the food is picked up and delivered come executing a payment, scheduling, giving an address. That portion of the work is automated. The delivery, the value of somebody being there to deliver the food, asked the party question we often are not considering. Or more increasing we are aware of it because we can see those folks. If id said content moderation was a form of the flavor of the anybody wouldve done what us talking about intel cambridge analytica. Well know content moderation is a job that people do. It actually is providing another service which is training Artificial Intelligence what important those are people in a competition executable loop were performing a very important service. We are focused on this vast world of business startups often businesstobusiness services that would be below the surface. Thats the world of work company talk about today. Its the world of editing, its a world of usability testing,. Many of these different tasks do drive Artificial Intelligence innovation. They are what help structure a clean data set, and a love being get him a key because most of you in the room know what im saying what a survey. But importantly in increasingly seeing a a number of jobs are saying quite hard to mail that a i think, will just keep a person thread into a moment of a Service Request that is perhaps textbased or anytime you perhaps have gone to a website and have little help window pop up, you know its a mixture of script and the person who was assisting you. In thinking about that world of work where you have a person who is doing something on the spot but cant be quite completed by automation, there are probably some points of reference that come to mind and become was in the book. Its places to threat together. This is not new. This discontinuity here and howe treat people who are there for what we imagine which is the moment because automation will come around and it will be replaced. That might look like piecework went in the days of textiles come certainly we could have manufacturing knock out a short but could add the button, the vocals know. For quite some time that was a matter of decades thats important thing to take away. Yes, automation eventually made it possible for textile in some cases. In other cases the reality of the paradox of automation last mile is what we call the bow its something to sophisticate for textile machinery to be able to consume through automation meant a person was kept around. But its also in the work of federal Contract Labor. Use the example of the women who were made famous in the film Hidden Figures who could at the time be brought in to serve those computers which again at mit know that was a weapons to the people, not the machines and that just as quickly when the need for them, when the demand for their services as competition experts eventually disappeared, they could be let go. There was a security in that employment but was it less valuable . They didnt have a way of looking at a point in seeing these women as valuable precisely because we had already moved forward an idea of what it was to value work. It was fulltime employment. It was particular professions and often particular bodies embodied in those professions, men, white men a privilege with a specific roles to play. Anyone not playing those all seemed expendable. So to continue this lineage, by the 1960s and the advancement of staffing and Temp Services that quite literally, and i point you to the beautiful book on the tenth economy, quite literally brokered on the value, the devaluing of womens labor as a resource because mostly young women who are College Educated them a great office girls. They were also expendable. So keeping that thread moving, by the time we get to the 1980s and 2000s and the outsourcing of Office Service working becomes much harder to make the case that people are doing something that could so easily be replaced precisely because they didnt work that is also being done by workers in the United States. It becomes much more obvious that this is a question of labor arbitrage, where you can find cheap labor thats just as educated as anyone whos in the location that is generating the request for work. I often lament perhaps to some of my colleagues dismay that the settlement of the case against microsoft that involve microsoft meant we never resolve the question of what do you do in case of employment that is yes, necessary for a printed time, its project driven, might be something that we need someone with a specific kind of expertise, say a language expertise, coding expertise, but you know do not give them for more than 12 months or 12 weeks or 12 days. What ways do we have two value that worker . At the time we didnt have a category for that. So its important to note that post 2002, Silicon Valley and especially 2001 what happens, we have effectively the. Com bubble burst but it at that moment that we have resolved without case law that were going to leave questionable what to do with people who are necessarily not necessary as when hold them for a career and what we came up with in the settlement was practices that treat Contract Labor often through vendor management systems, but that on dont leave them with the protection beyond that 12 month contract to be able to say im employed and his benefits with my employment. If you think about this history that withdrawn, and it is an argument, any historical trajectory is an argument, that in this case we see this setting in place from the beginning of the industrial era of loss around labor protection that mostly have seen the valuable work, the work that cant be automated without much projection out about what might one day be a target of automation. Mary another really valuable stores to get great amount of training but if you think about what it took to bring up a website back in the 2000 when you had a hand cut everything. How many people you know what i am talking about. That is not completely done with software. At that time we paid quite a bit of money to build peoples websites. So keep that in mind as youre thinking about what can be automated, what is in the work of the creative and complex communication the seems beyond automation. Its really an open question. Its what is it that will be constantly on the horizon. And requires to take some amount of time. So that, studying of this work, is not the most obvious thing to do as an anthropologist. Actually had to figure out where to begin. Which is for businesses as case studies we identified the workers but also these companies to show us the inside of their black box. How did they organize and what is the workflow look like. And the companies this man in this world of mechanisms that can both build out an Artificial Intelligence but also teaches the delivery. Our program continues, deputy chief Technology Officer for new york city. She spoke at kramer bucks, in washington dc. About the power dynamic between Big Tech Companies and governments around the world. I think the best way to describe is to talk about how i came upon the idea to write this book in the first place. Back in 2015, there were a number of terrorist attacks across france. And in november 2015, there were archer terrorist attacks that killed over hundred and 30 people. It was set up after the fact that a lot of these people organize on social media. So social Media Companies really got involved in working with event agencies to try to figure out what we stop the corporation of terrorism on platforms and how do we keep them from organizing. It was in kind of a rough start in the beginning. One of the people who were looking at the attacks was captured about six months later despite the fact that hed been actively posted on facebook the entire time. There was still a lot of cooperation between governments and Tech Companies at the time. A few years later, facebook, google, youtube, amazon and a few others came together for a global form to talk about how to fight terrorism specifically. This was something that was organized by the Tech Industry and for the Tech Industry. But again it wasnt a lot of cooperation with the government. And then skip forward a few more months. We saw a series of hurricanes in the u. S. Hurricane maria at primerica and wiped out the power grid and cell phone coverage. And who showed up, tesla came forward to resolve their electric grid predict google showed up. And they provided internet and tell them to communicate telecommunication coverage. This time i thought okay, what is going on with the Tech Industry. But not just making apps, theyre going to be involved in the areas that are way outside of their ordination and what used to be the former responsibility of government. With diplomacy, the counter terrorism, the infrastructure building, i thought there has to be some better way to talk about them than just tech. They seem to have a role to play in geopolitics. So the problem was that the term nonstate actor was kind of had already evolved into just the bad guy. So he studied were the stern happened. Host and the terrorisms. As the bad guys. But i did some research and in defined nonstate actors as examples like the un and nato. Sewing and there are not considered terrorists. And it was sometime around 2012 or 2013 that you started saying the term being used in two reference to al qaeda and eventually than with isis. So nonstate actor was taken with the bad guys. But clearly these Tech Companies or nationstates either. So i thought there needs to be another way to talk about them. So introduce this concept of net space. Internet companies, who were working outside of their Technology Admissions in areas that used to be the domain of the nationstate. Like defense, diplomacy, infrastructure. In the article actually in 2015 rain people who read it said, i think this is a little bit of a stretch. So put on a stretcher two years and after hurricane maria, i thought actually really feel like theres something to this. And that is when i put the article out there pretty wire publish it and it turned into this book. Speech of was the difference between Big Tech Companies who might have philanthropic concerns like donating tensor money or volunteered aid or whatever our cisco, and also major and new stuff. Alexis is a very good question. I actually dont put twitter in this category. I do put tesla in this category. It might be som surprising in se ways. Im looking at how Tech Companies are expanding outside of the digital services. And into these domains that used to be the territory of government pretty and you dont see over really getting involved in counterterrorism are the moment. And microsoft is very deeply involved in diplomacy pretty dont think of cisco as having a real stake in national treaties. So this is the start of the differentiation between the two. And that was uber. I would about other international companies. Like cocacola that operates globally, mcdonalds. But neither one of them are opening a counterterrorism department. Facebook has a larger kind of department than the state department and terrorism put in doesnt seem strange that they would. So think this is one of the reasons that i thought we should talk about this. It. Host so the list of companies that qualify him a is google amazon facebook, and microsoft and you anticipate in my question, tesla. Why tesla. Alexis so one of the things i looked at in the book, is not just how Tech Companies is expanding into governmental domain but heather expanding into what i call this in real life, physical infrastructure and services. And this is something that tesla and elon musk, they are really doing in some ways more than anybody else with the publicity operations, they are pursuing partnerships with governments to provide electricity. He is now moving into starting. There is a lot of endeavors where they are no longer just looking out this kind of product and Services Like cars. There really changing the way we think about public infrastructure. For instance like the boring company, theyre producing a heightened braille in chicago. Speech of his running mechanism that elon objects to. Alexis exactly. One of the questions we need help a private Sector Company who are in charge of our public infrastructure. What happens when they decide they dont necessarily want to make it available for all. And this is one of the reasons that i talk a lot about in the book about teslas work in puerto rico. They stepped in at a time when puerto rico rico really needed somebody to step in when the federal government did not. But theyre not under any obligation to state. They dont have the responsibility the government has two for instance provide equally and fairly access to services. Adam so what do they want to pretty in the book that netscapes to have beliefs. What you mean about that what are their beliefs. Alexis one of the things that also distinguishes the companies is that a number of people that work there, a large enough contingents to make a difference will say there driven in some ways by this belief that technology should be used for good. So we see this in case of google. They worked with the department of defense on a very small contact called project name and pretty looking at how to apply ai to the recognition technology. This was a very small project. Theres only been a handful of people working on it. When people found that inside of google this was happening, a number of people resigned in protest and there was a company wide letter circulating that we do not believe google should be in the defense business and google backed out. They let it expire. In a significant portion of the drive the people who work in these organizations, they want to build things. To do good. Adam subleased not totally unlike the government is constituted in its constituent parts pretty. Alexis i think this is something that is one of the interesting features of these particular companies that i call netscape is that of course theyre interested in the bottom line and making sure that they can be successful businesses but you do here about internal employee protest when a company does not or does not think the beliefs of their core beliefs that tech should be used for good. And i think that is one of the challenges with this dynamic is that we may cheer them from the sidelines, say yay google. But we dont actually have any role as citizens to directly influence the process. And i think is another thing that makes us maybe is a phenomenon. Adam and we will come back to that pretty face on your experience and what you talk about in the book, i want to ask you a bit about the governments relationship to netscape. Let me ask you that if you can stop or start by re counting this episode you have the book where you, i had not read before, social Media Companies and Tech Companies with adjusted justice department, and enter fit interference with the 2018 election british how to let go. Alexis so that has been intense for the Tech Industry up to about 2018 referencing in this book, to reach out to Law Enforcement and to reach out to big federal agencies and try to partner with them and work with them about figuring out how to meet these challenges that we all face together. And the Government Entities have been a little slow to respond. There is a meeting that was held in which the key players the google and facebook and others invited members from the department of homeland security. They offered a lot of information about the own strategies to deal with terrorism platforms. The emerging Information Campaigns. And in response, they were silent rated selection be contained, they didnt invite anyone from the government to the table. I think 2020 we are seeing this shift a little bit frantic especially from the defense shut sector to try to reach out to the tech almonds very aggressively to try to get to work with them. But i think that theres a sort of chief officer of facebook, was not sent stanford coming but it really well. A local Police Department maybe really hardworking and really strong but we wouldnt ask a local Police Department to defend against an invading army. But that sort of what is happening in the tech sector. Were looking at these Tech Companies to stand up to their own counterterrorism in their own Defense Mechanisms not really getting the support that they need. Adam and disengagement after that episode before this cycles really interesting parable about the risks of government standoffish notice. In the federal government they cant get it back together, to participate in the Tech Companies are going to use do whatever they want to do. Which i thought was a valuable point. In the same time present a bit of a problem because we know that dc and especially congress, even more than the executive branch does not and cannot keep up with tech. We had all of these lawmakers who made their careers and insurance parcels reaven medicine and law but they show zero grass and technology. I remember hearing they asked if facebook was the same thing as twitter and another asked how they make money. It was just clearly have not been on the platform at all. And we can tell these people to be better and hire new staffers in the whatever but fundamentally what if you have thoughts about how to the government can be smarter about this relationship with netscapes for these people overseeing agencies who basically have no idea what to ask for. Alexis thats a really great question i think theres a couple of different ways that we need to think about it. One is we need to make sure they were putting people in congress who do understand it the importance of technology. Not just as some locale but some is a really power player in both domestically and geopolitically. That is number one i think were starting to see an influx of younger and more Diverse People running for elected office. So i have some hope that within a few years we will see kind of the nature of people who are representing a start to reflect societys interest more locally. But i also think that the people who are currently in office, its no surprise that Technology Companies are impacting our daily lives pretty this is not news in 2020. We have 2014 elections this Information Campaign from foreign actors, over a few years ago and we asked for congressional action and i think there is no real excuse for it other than a lot of appetite for it. I even at the Congress People themselves dont grasp all of the details of technology, they certainly have access to resources that they can learn or help inform themselves better of what to do worried. Adam it is just hard to be passionate if you cant grasp it. The campaigns. Talk about the work of netscapes who are stepping up and counterterrorism and insight bigotry and prejudice groups. I am wondering what you think about the imbalance that exists between the work of the Tech Companies, this netscapes can be here and abroad and whether you think theres a certain imbalance with the first amendment. We have scriptures about how we can compare to the e. U. Which can impose regulation. What can you talk about that. Alexis talking about someone earlier about the fact that they have really broke up spieth laws. We dont have anything like this first amendment. And a wistful way, that wouldnt it be great if it were somehow be able to double down. And i think that the needs to be some sort of movement. People oh who are sort about the extreme end of these things. Theres those mistaking very serious hate speech for anything other than what it is. Its kind of like a fire in it, theater. Its an egregious example of a hateful content and if it cant regulate in ways, like Tech Companies to be more aggressive about labeling them if not taking them down. This is something you see a little bit with face book, youtube and google. Labeling the content that is problematic. In information about the coronavirus that seems problematic. Labeling it is being potentially prospect. And i think this is one way to get out making sure that things are more informed. Without just shipping it away completely. Adam and if you like or do you have any thoughts about whether that can work. Alexis i think that it is still early. We need to study the impact. It is a start. It is better than nothing. I remember a few years ago asking aaron shift two is the ceo of google of time. When his thoughts were about google whether this or should be something they took a heavier hand and identifying painful or problematic content. They dont censor anything pretty we can rank that kind of content. So this sort of tipping this scale a little bit behind the scenes pretty and again this comes up to the foot student of the fact that we dont necessarily have visibility into these actions. So i think one of the things that makes Big Companies interesting from a citizens perspective is this. Those absence of transparency pretty were not really in a position to say we show algorithms to show you rd ranking or we just see the results. And hope that they are doing a good job. And reminder that all of the problems youre seeing now are available to watch in their entirety that book to be. Org. Just click the authors name on the book title the search box at the top of the page. Next in our other programs on technology, mcneil speaking at Harvard Bookstore in massachusetts. She argued the internet use has shifted from being holistic and spontaneous and voluntary to make data in advertising driving. A wallflower is standing in the corner. But people cant necessarily see you. See you watching them and its one of those things that has to do with the elements that make interaction online a lot unusual from the physical world interactions. And sometimes because we take for granted how much our communication is woven into our daily lives, that court difference of physical and visual world of actions i want to make clear that title. Host sees that youre looking at your preferred way of interacting with the internet. And since you look about it is our other specific places online that you choose like that you sort of think for yourself primarily like where are you working these days pretty. I would say that i have never had a profile that a lot of times especially like especially in the quarters. Joanne and some are very sweet and unexpected. I think there are letters that are very toxic. But there are also ones that derek created the people facing homelessness in all about the Teaching Resources rated they were somewhat of a layer of anonymity. It is a lot about screenings as opposed to an all dont participate myself, have worked on cultures. There are a lot of communities and just find useful information. And then, in the book i go through the president s how like there is a chat room and boards. And before, i would leave the post i would definitely spend possibly months making sure that i would be welcomed there. Host i am noting that the title is working at the edge of the room. Working, how a person becomes a user rated and we will make you participate in this particular way rated guarding work. That point about read it is so interesting because one of the sort of where things that i also, mo red marker. I read a fair amount of legal advice as a lawyer which is probably a form of like sort of like causing myself pain as opposed to hearing other people. And read a fair amount of apple. Athena sort of funny because is actually sort of gotten a lot of peoples way of interacting with this particular form of it the internet is through torture. Something ridiculous will be posted it might be actual posts in the lots of people responded twitter. It totally is departed from the actual context in which the initial post was made. Joanne is such a classic example about how conversation is still usually quite bizarre rated and heated and on ways, you take it to another platform like twitter where this quality of underlying irony attached to it in the sense that you have to be above the content. I think thats what makes it distinctive that you cant really be too sincere about things. And its funny about twitter, i took about in the book, when i was first other, i was too much of a joke or social network. Look at all these nice people sharing with her eating for breakfast. So why am i not it nice person. The share these peaceful moments of that life. Now i just want to make where jokes. Know i think that overwhelmed that kind of edge to the content and that everything has to be. Some second element of distancing yourself from the farm that if you can laugh everything, youre not not so inclined to have some fun layer of personal distance from what you are doing there. Host i think in some ways that looking can be a way to distance yourself because you like, im not it is invested as the people who are choosing to post. And some people, being on one time a it is a lack of a lack of an investment. Im not actually less invested than the people who post. Incident cases, i think i am more invested than people who post but i still like get that sense of distance. So you sort of friend the book, and both in terms of working but also in terms of the idea of becoming a user. It started one of the things you talk about a fair amount the book is facebook. But because of teachers like the offline profiles. They look like the ultimate and the renaming. And some people didnt want a facebook profile. Then facebook instructs the profile for them from all of the things to do even though theyre not on facebook. Generally, do you think about this ambiguous tracking on the web. And how does that change like the experience of sort of being online generally or. Joanne is not something thats really possible on the internet which is defined to track activity and how and olympics and all of this is part of the function of the social network. Especially Something Like facebook where it is profit is attached to having data ons users. So that is another element of you have some advantages that you can leave without a trace. You can walk away from things. Perhaps the surveillance cameras rated. [laughter]. Host that sort of leaving without a trace. Switch topics a little bit. One part of the book and read was a lot of interest was your section on tech which is entitled crash. So someone who sort of at a time identified with that label sort of actively you describe a sort of was really appreciating the humility in which you approach that specifically you say that youre going to resist the urge to leave a theory around why women seem more likely than professional commentators new york to address intersectional concerns. So im not going to ask you to do this narrative you appointed but this is just a sort of note that maybe this is overly kind to me. That i love you. Of organizing that you highlighted and see like actually a class analysis rated that ended up bleeding over into what i call the focus Pipeline Program of that diversity box and we still see. In the way in which there is a particular very different version of it ready and you might have seen it in new york. The these people you are still having a version of feminism. And certainly there were bright spots. And he pointed out the culture and there was a lot to be said about that. But i think that i would be curious about your process and thinking about that chapter is like a real moment where you are reflecting how not to just come off as sort of nostalgic in a way that seems historical about that sort of positive parts of the internet. More generally your views on the tech feminist like your real reflection on it. Joanne that was intense, and an eyeopening one. I was based in new york. And as elements of that became more unavoidable unavoidable and twitter and facebook, the profel feminist movie and the time is not necessarily addressing some of the intersexual elements that would into this harassment. Some of the resources that i found that were pertinent for things like d feminism. Lewicki, of resources that seemed so much beyond media presentation of gender inequality. So here in a time when we can see coincide with a different activism. Certainly black lives matter. I do remember especially at the womens march 2016, there was a feeling of wow we have really come so far. A lot of basic understandings of inclusion that wouldve been quite radical three years prior. They are effective much more broadly. I am always hesitant to name certain factors more than others. But i do think as problematic is twitters needs major problems are, the nature of having Something Like twitter where we had trending topics and someone created a. And use that to discuss personal experiences. And having that Community Element in a platform that is designed for multiple communities. They push forward some more progressive ideas. But i say that with anticipation because of the most part, if you like those platforms that are designed for everyone karma are themselves very dangerous. Its a tradeoff that because you have a twitter account and you many types of people, you probably follow trends people and a few people from backgrounds very different from yours. So seeing their experiences and their argument as part of a conversation in the part of twitter that was having a. In solidarity the white women, would be the key, one of the turning points for the activism. It is something that i dont want to discount but i dont want to give it too much credit. I dont want credit twitter because twitter is certainly been nothing the company did nothing for that user activism. Eligible to be on cspan2. And were taking a look at some recent author programs about technology. Next, from april 2019, sociologists Julie Albright examines the deep bite between digital native and the generations that preceded them. Now we have kids growing up where there then it is this mobility, the global devices, phones and internet enabled, ipads and all that stuff. Kids are now being given these devices at infancy. In 1979, theres a band called the tube. I dont know if you know these guys. The kind of a funky band. San francisco, a lot of fun but they had an album cover thats called remote control. In the album cover is kind of a wink and a nod to think about the evil impact of television. People thought that television was going to work kids brains. Then they had tb at a kids face in a crib. But im you a little picture here. Now we are in 2018. And actually this is a real Product Available on amazon. Where the kid has an ipad right in the face on day one. And there are others like this. Their potty chairs that have the ipad right there. Right at the crib so theyre actually feeding Dangerous Technology to children before they acquire the language skills. So neuropsychologist no that there is something called brain class to city. Children are like plastic and valuable and what you put into them, influences them of the things that are exposed to shape those nero pathways the brains of the children. What is the outcome. Was going to happen when we have babies like you saw, infants that are acquiring Digital Skills before acquiring language. Will it be the outcome of that. We dont know that yet. Of that fast generation of videos that you see on youtube, all the stimulation happening. Most parents now also say they have the tv on at the same time and most support that they have this going at the same time produce and theres always stimulation pretty there was always noise or sound of visuals coming in. Wasnt due to the attention and thinking as these nero pathways that are being shaped by all of that input. We do not know yet. Thats going to be to be determined on the horizon. And that is where we are at now in terms of digital technologies. In a steady diet of that being fed to children. So we could say that this is rewiring brains that these children are going to think differently than you do. And that is where we are at. I told you that people are coming in tethered. One of the reasons they are coming in tethered is because they have so many choices. You heard christopher say that i have worked with eharmony. And i helped resolve some of their products and have the match people better. When i first started coming up with my dissertation. What is happening now is eharmony sort of a web based matching service and la have with our phones and apps right pretty grinders and stumbles and bubbles in all of these things and people just walking. It becomes a game. But was happened is is presented to the young people, this idea that you have an un limited sea of choices in front of you in terms of romantic relationships. So wouldnt you think that this sea of choices, you would find just the right choice for you. But what happens is, and we see this in psychology there is a paradox of choices. And the idea is that its kind of funny but the more choices you have, it makes it more difficult to choose. They did a study where have you ever been in a store or market for the giving out samples of food, cheese or Something Like that. They have a table set up and theyre going to give you something. What they set that up with samples of jim. In the first day they had 24 varieties of jim. In this and hey, try all of these jams any of the two operating they can be confronted by a jar of jam after that. In the second day, they came back and instead of 24 varieties, they only gave six varieties, six choices pretty insane coupon to buy a jar of jam. Comments and sickly you would think that the more choices you would find just that jim. Maybe like strawberry or whatever that jim is that you like pretty you will find that jim. But it turns out, that is not the case. When people were only a tent is likely to buy any at all when they had more choices as opposed to only having less. When a situation now with nurses paradox of choice. Thats like choice overload. The more choices we have, makes it harder for us to choose anything at all. People are swiping swiping swiping. Maybe they will find someone a little richer or little more hotter interesting. Maybe 70 and dont fight with. So they keep swiping but the doughnut choosing. In a new study just came out last week. Half of americans, are not in emmett romantic relationship. 65 percent of High School Kids have never had a romantic relationship now. If you go back to world war ii. A lot of people wearing their high school sweethearts. Well we dont have that now. Its really changing the dynamics of everything. In one of the reasons i brought that up. Another thing that they are doing right now with all the swiping is an easy come easy go. You can get a date so easily the people just disappear. It is called ghosting. Just take off. They dont ever contact the persons. But thats what theyre doing. And guess what. The same idea of the swiping in this choice overload, and the ghosting is happening in the workplace. Theres this idea that you go on monster or linkedin, theres this endless link of jobs available. And people now are ghosting their employers thinking that they can just get another one and another one and another one. So this idea of this endless sea of choices, is changing peoples willingness to commit to something because maybe there is something emma is better out there. Be it a job or a romantic relationship. Because of this endless sea of choices available. What is happening to us changing the qualities of adulthood. There were sociologists that studied the markers of adulthood. The five markers. And heres what they are pretty complaining school, leaving home, becoming financially independent the fulltime job, marrying and having a child, now if we go back to 1960, by age 30, 77 percent of women at 65 percent of men, had achieved all five of those markers by early 30s. But if you fastforward to now, is less than half in the third of the men. In essence, we are living in it. Of extended adolescence. That part of the qualities are in tethering from all of these traditionally markers of adulthood. Now some people say, maybe we should just unhook from these devices and things like that but it is becoming harder and harder because in one sense, they are addictive which i didnt use like that word but they are now once we have mobile phones available to us, theyre basing in qualities that are similar to one armed bandit sought machine. We talked about addiction pretty heavy over playing a slot machine. You pull the arm digging a gang. Those, maybe you win. I will try again and again. In all the coins fall. And all of lights and sirens are going because you have one. Thats exactly how instagram works pretty your scrolling just like those people are swelling and front of you in the slot machine. Some are interesting and sometimes its been boring. And none the less, it keeps going back in for more. So these same behavioral drivers that are the most predictive of people coming back for more, are into our social media now. Because it comes harder and harder put those funds down. Even bring up an alert or a message pretty embarrassing and tingle often for people check the phones around you. Sometimes people are even doing the vibration. What is not even vibrating. Maybe there was a message. The checking they just want to keep checking in checking. Some people are checking their phones at thousands of times a day. So the problem because this. Im not trying to be amish. Going back to the horse and buggy days. Im not saying that. I am saying is that the combination of our devices, and our connectivity to that and unhooking from these stabilizing social structures have left particularly low younger people on lord. Were saying the highest things of anxiety, depression, that we have seen in 30 years. And i work in the university. So i am right at the front lines so sit up to dont know if he realizes pretty colleges now one quarter of students are on some kind of psychotropic medication now for some kind of mental disorder. The key here is coming in tethered it means coming in some ways, we dont have these stabilizing social structures that are stabilizing peoples mental and physical health. And so we need to sort of reinvent that pretty and how can we do that pretty and as we pull away from these social structures, how can we create new structures to provide some stability for young people. Because obviously we have a problem on our hands. And books about technology with you in january, this year discusses the next level of Artificial Intelligence that involves decisionmaking. Im lucky that i went through the computer revolution. Computers were big old things and nobody can use. My mom didnt know the difference between software and hardware. I had to explain that to her. We went to a massive democracy sensation of computing technology. I believe in the same thing today with ai, and data. The net new tie technology. Ai is done to us but we dont have control over it. Data is overwhelming, distant and at best we can a data visualization. I have had the honor of interviewing hundreds of people in the Tech Knowledge industry for a few years and asking them what are you frustrated about spring and technology itself, it could solve one problem what would it be. And over and over again, i have a similar answer. I look sort of like this. This is why i am pretty sure, i have been building Machine Learning applied learning a real long time. Over 30 years. The human genome product and graduate schools. Ive built a hundred Million Dollar business for the government. A built thousands of machine remodels. Mostly to provide fun. Who wouldve known. So many years later, people know what i am talking about. Whod known. So i believe that this background has given me insight. All of these years somethings been missing. And that something was missing his women coming up from the technology instead of putting humans at the center of the equation. Of honor to be about the vice chair. And who works closely. I like that she called intelligence augmentation. Because you can sort of think of ai is upside down to the ia. Its human at the center of the equation again. When i interviewed all of these people i found what i call for a while but decision oversight. What is a decision. It is an action. The thought process that leads to inaction. Lorien that action in a complex world, lets do some stuff. And i dont know what buying that scarf is going to do to the world pretty is going to have some impact. But honestly, i dont feel very motivated because i cant seen an impact. Some visual and present for me. It doesnt grab my primate brain makes me think gosh, i really need to buy the hybrid car read i cant see it. In the data stack today, the ai stock today, is not giving up to me. This is my dog. I am training him to be a service dog. An ipad him pretty much as a life, since 11 monthold. And i have this awful thing happened to me. I have a trainer is teaching me to train the service dog and she told me about a b steve. My head exploded. Thats exactly what ive heard so many humans have said. They are always talking about the end statement which is the context. When i say said, the behavior. The dog sits. The consequence. He gets a cookie. So this is a universal archetype. This not one way how we might to use it and i will take a little bit about how that fits in the moment. I think, this is the way to think about it because it has the lowest infraction to how humans think. The lowest friction to how humans naturally think. Busy people live in complex environments. They dont have much brainpower to learn methodology or any of those things with things that we have to be the board there at the fact that were not has created a giant cultural barrier. Between people of the head of government, at the head of businesses. And even me. As we try to make decisions and move a evidence and data nai to help make sure the decisions have an effect that is good. So farmers i am working with, on a proposal, they have to decide oclock to plant pretty down the road they dont know that that crop, what will happen because they have fewer migrant workers. The situation has changed. Were going to acquire a company or what products to launch our what price to change. As the fact that through, you hear what my dog heres pretty thats a situation pretty is a behavior pretty will like this but i did this. And then down the road, but for us, what makes us special is that we can see through long chains of consequences. And we need computer help so again a decision is an imaginative process in her hands as we think through, the actions is some context, the lead to some results. And if you remember nothing else, rimer this template. It was cool about the decision intelligence which is what the book is about is because of these things i can teach you ideas that you can take home and use immediately. That is my problem promise of you stick with the top. How to make decisions today. So im sorry to say, i had since this was happening. Especially in a complex world. Human evolution, you dont really think through the consequences of our decisions very deeply. We are much more likely not to think through these rationally but instead, to be socially, we look at someone who looks like they are successful or dominant and we will simply copy the decisions that they have been making. It turns out that is a very effective. It has been usually successful for the human race. In fact thats what separates us from any other species. We are great copiers. In the cultural theory says that we have developed the behaviors. But the society like that of the unconscious genetic revolution, we need a cultural revolution to come up with these behaviors. This is what we are programmed for. To look at the prestigious or dominant person and doing the due credit as opposed to thinking through the consequences. That was great for a few millennia. But the situation has changed. First of all, if there is about aftercare fire rated and tell us what to do. And they are smart, they can influence us to make decisions that benefit them but not us. If they are smart about the situation. Second, the context is constant and changing. We need to be developing new ways of coping with his big ocean, thats fundamentally different. Because it keeps changing. The water is going back and forth. And we always are thinking through problems that are societal and no longer are they working. These have complex systems. Not only the feedback effect pretty we seek winner take all. Where Large Companies or large artists, are 90 percent of the benefits. An elective inequality. Nationally the distance that weve talked about is very important to predict everybody has worked with data, and we tend to focus on what you can measure easily. Money. Size and price. We tend to overlook reputations, happiness, morale. And yet i have never built a decision mild model that didnt have at least one feedback that involved a soft factor. We must Start Talking to the sociologist, the cultural evolution is all of those other disciplines to understand the soft factors. Decision intelligence creates a roadmap for how to do that. The other thing i didnt take as the future is no longer like the past. And we have seen the pass in the future, matters that have been based on the past. Suddenly all of the sudden the ones who are white or black ones. Inarguably. The ai emma and i will take about decision intelligence can solve this problem. I grew up of optimism. We were all sharing all of our cones and our internet was going to bring our ideas together. I dont think we have realized all that. The decision intelligence, will help us go there. I think we have created a number of changes, data and learning collaboration and internet and social media. In one more, start make a big difference to have a model of your impact. That is di which we will start to talk about. We do this. We start with people. We dont say where is the data. We dont say we cant do this ai thing like without data. Data is great but theres a huge amount of Human Knowledge that has no data set whatsoever. Actions lead to outcomes pretty your homework tonight is to go home and ask fred who did not come to this talk how they think about concept decision. To the talk about action and they will lead to an effect and also lead to outcomes and the noble talk about the context. So what i do is a sitdown with a Diverse Group of experts. All different gender race, and i say, what are the outcomes you are trying to achieve. And so Many Companies have these vastly big projects never sent down and bring strong brainstorm through the outcome. And i consulted in Different Levels with many arguments. And he said what are we trying to achieve. In the outcomes is different for each person you Donate Technology to get better pretty interesting to have a brainstorming process where you think through one of the outcomes that we are trying to achieve. It is a higher revenue. Net revenue after two years. Is it some kind of military advantage. And when it does not create a backlash that will get us two years later in terms of psychological reputation of our country. What are the outcomes and we are trying to achieve. Make sure you ask that question. Brainstorm through the actions. Many folks dont take the time to have an open and stormy session to allow bad ideas and funny ideas. Where the actions that might achieve those outcomes pretty do that. Move all of the blood to the creative side of the brain. In the analytical side of the brain which is over here maybe. You dont have room. So separate those two. Spend some time being creative. And then spend some time being analytical. These triangles here are where ai fits in. Most decision models i believe, as we have democracy democratized ai, this is the pattern. This is how we do it. So we talk about a decision today. I saw greta on tv. And she was so compelling. We have a Climate Crisis in the way we solve this, its real simple. Stop worrying about analysis. At the very root, pay for some trees. There are organizations all over the world that will take your number and they will buy trees. They will grow. And they will suppressant carbon. And perhaps, i dont know if she said the trees alone would do it but anyway she said it would make a big difference. I have not sent money to treat organization yet. I cant visualize how i might send lease through chain of events to some outcome. If i am going to use ai to benefits me, i want active fun experience. And so this is what i think is the future of ai. Its what you look like a videogame. To do some of this in the basement because we can base on this and walked through the spaces. And what we do the spaces, we are expanding through these actions that you might take and were learning the computer help us understand the chain of events that that sets into a motion to lead to the consequences. That and a personal level, also highly valuable and an organizational level. You can watch all of the programs that you have seen here many others about technology online, and booktv. Org. Access our archives by using the search box at the top of the page. Search technology and books. Is the coronavirus continues to impact the country, heres a look at how it is affecting the publishing industry. With brickandmortar bookstores closed, publishers have focused on their online efforts. In a recent profile by publishers weekly, random house detailed on the pandemic shape the direct to consumer marketing initiatives through online full clubs, author events and a virtual author conference that was held on alterable platforms. Teresa creative market directorate random house said this about the changes pretty there are lots of readers out there. And i think for a long time, because of their very traditional methods, we tended to reach a Similar Group of readers. This has given us the opportunity to go a little bit beyond that. Meanwhile, has a few book stores have sought to reopen, most are so close to the public and are trying to determine if they should open the doors or continue with online sales. Big bookstores in Salt Lake City have opposition to the end of utah stay at home orders which expired on may 1st. Kings english bookshop, centers rare books, wrote we would love to throw open our doors to public for business as usual in may 1st, we believe we would our lives along with those of our employees and customers by doing so. Also in the news, books and reports of book sales were up close to 5 percent for the week ending may 2nd. Bolstered by increases in develop fiction and childrens nonfiction. Adult nonfiction cells were up 1. 4 percent on russell down close to 9 percent for the year. And many book festivals and conferences that were forced to cancel are now offering virtual experiences. For the americas largest book industry conference book expo has announced that it will offer a series of Online Events for may 26th to june 29th read all of the programs will be hosted by look ats Facebook Page and will be free to the public. The mississippi professional cancel their annual august 3 nonparty will provide virtual programs. So the lebrons book festival which will take place online on june 6th. And finally the Dallas Public Library has collected a series of recorded author talks highlights north texas authors. Praise it by Hillary Clinton for the