Into the and i demonic young dictate dictator could not be more timely. The book provides insight into who kim jong un is, what makes him tick and what to tell up at night. The book has earned wide praise from among the leading thinkers and former policy practitionersdealing with north korean issues and were fortunate that they will for the next hour with us down what we need to know about how north korea operates , who jung pak who kim jong un is and what is going on in north korea so welcome them to this conversation. They both areformer intelligence analysts who represent the best of their previous professions. They each were tremendous colleagues while in government and they are tremendous friends now. In addition to being deeply informed , kind and deadly smart, they are also a ton of fun so before i turn it over to jung and sue, we are collecting many questions from members of the audience and welcome you to send more. Do so by sending an email to events at brookings. Edu or via twitter at becomingkim. With that it is my delight to turn it over to sue and jung. I do want to spend a few minutes talking about what it was like to cover a country like north korea and a person like kim jong un as an analyst. Your book begins with you talking about analyzing north korea, the fourth year of your job as an analyst at the cia making the hard call and as you know i started at the cia two days before 9 11 and in my years covered kim jong un and yours, your years covered kim jong un and between us, from kim jong il to kim jong un there are two decades of covering north korea but we both agree north korea is the hardest of a hard target country. Can you talk about your job as a north korea analyst in the Intelligence Community andhow you analyzed the best information and misinformation connecting the dots , talk about how you your career analyst job is about putting together pieces of a puzzle at different times, different pieces of the puzzle and so on. Can you start with that . Thank you to ryan for that amazing introduction and to sue, i can never get tired of your telling people about our first date. This is a rated pg conversation so she left outa lot of stuff in that opening. Sue, thank you for doing this. Im so glad were getting to do this with our audience so we cant do this in person. I think whats so interesting about how our past is is that you cover the father and our i covered the sun and our paths crossed at the agency and even on the cia website, the recruitment website you see things like you work at the cia because you help us to learn to connect the dots, that its like a puzzle where you have different puzzles coming in at different times from different period so you have to figure that out but i think in the north korea period, we see this now where all this fragmentary information is coming in about whether kim jong un is alive or ill, is that because of north koreas specific practices, operation security and their Information Security it makes north korea the hardest of the hard targets and as you know this is all things that always rang truethroughout the building. So i think north korea doesnt want, the regime doesnt want information to get out to the outside or within north korea itself. Because of that you have only a small circle of advisers who might know where or what kim is doing at any given moment and i think that is designed to make sure that no one gets any crazy ideas about starting a protest or getting together or colluding against the state but its also to makesure people on the outside , the United States and china also are kept in the dark about where the regime is so given all of that, i think a lot of assumptions have been made over the years but given all that, the northkorean Operations Security , their tight hold on information, makes it difficult to actually hear insiders. In your book about you talk about richard shumans book about how it analysts need to work through the weaknesses and biases in our thinking and how we need to check and review our assumptions and i found that its very true. I think thats one of the most thoughtful things about your book about the need for checking our assumptions. You know this book. Weve probably had five or six different copies given to usat any point so everybody if you walk into any cia Analyst Office , former or in a langley youll see this book on their bookshelf either over to the side but it reminds me of one of the things about being a north korea follower is that, a north korea analyst is that its extremely interesting. You have to live with all of this ambiguity and provide answers so its a lot of mental and also emotional gymnastics that you have to do to get target and we see north korea as a hard target and its the reason we study north korea so much is because they have Nuclear Weapons and its position in the middle of the most economically vibrant part of the world, asia is its sick with south korea, its where troops are present in japan and so given all of those factors and the fact that we dont have very much absolute insight into the leadership intentions, that makes this a very volatile place and it really requires a lot of checking of the assumptions. Otherwise we are just following it at the wrong time one more question and we can move on to north korea, what do you think is the biggestmisperception people have about the agency and what is it like not being in the government anymore . Is it weird not having those resources . Yes when i arrived at brookings , after nine years of the agency i remember being at my deskand looking at my one screen, we had multiple screens. Just looking at my one small screen and feeling i was on the decline. What dopeople do for information . What are they listening to . What are they seeing, talking to them and what is the government saying . So that was a really difficult transition. You had to find others sources of information. I think you found that to, that when you provided, it was such a hard way to acclimate to new information environments. What did you think when you left . Like, what do i not know . You get, you become an information obsessed so now you dont have it. You have to go through this withdrawal. So moving on to kim, i know the status of intelligence and will get to that later but in the book you mentioned theres a tendency by analysts and scholars and media to portray him as a cartoon figure. A 10 foot tall baby. And theres a tendency to simultaneously underestimate or overestimate his capability and you say with his capabilities, with his intentions, questioning his rationality and of course he is not the only one who is caricatured. I remember when i was covering kim jong il, hillary caricatured him. He was making fun of his bouffant hair and platform shoes and has a session with films and womanizing and so on. So could you talk to us a little bit about that, being portrayed as this cartoon figure and theconsequences of the implications of doing that. Its easy to caricature the kim regime area that youve seen this all your life in your career. And i think its because of that absence of deep knowledge about north korea and i think that to kims are very easy to caricature and thats one of the things that i wanted to do with this book is to provide a whole picture. It depends on where yourgaze is. I think this is where richard porters comments about mirror imaging. That you cant be projecting your own assumptions or your ownbeliefs and what i would do in that situation. So i think the whole crazy moniker, that goes to how can they do this . Why would they do this . Dont they know we would hit them . This doesnt make any sense. Only when you lookfrom the north korea or the kim perspective, thats something that i tried to explain. What are the drivers of all of these actions . What is his historical baggage . What is he mindful of, what does he adds aspire to and how does that evidence or manifest in his actions so what might be crazy and unpredictable and unprofessional to us is rooted in rationality on the part of kim. In writing your book what most surprised you about kim jong un . As your view of him changed over the years since he took over . Has he exceeded your expectations . The 2018 was really jarring. Remember that . When kim did this abrupt switch and everyone seemed to be talking about he is different. Yes, hes different from his father and grandfather. He did this pivot at the olympics and hes engaging with south korea and the United States after years of holding his neighbor hostage, that he was different. He was studied in the west and hes got a wife and he wants to be more modern so we have to grab this opportunity and that was get disconcerting and this goes back to how deeply uncomfortable it is to be an analyst of north korea, it made me challenge my assumptions about kim. What are we seeing and what does that mean and what is drivingthis outreach . And i remember we were at a conference and there was a really blustery frightening statement after the pivot and all of us were like oh yes, thats the north korea that we know. The issuing of threats and telling us that theyre going to use their weapons , all of that but i think as i tried to get in the issue and show that he is still learning from us. Hes still growing. Hes still adapting and that we have to be ready and responsible to adjust our analysis based on the situation. Do you have a fun fact that people dont know about him . Like, i know that his favorite food of all time was sushi and not only sushi, fatty tuna. I think as i was writing, you know sometimes when you write the more you feel like youre learning from the writing process. What i felt was interesting is the role of women. And his use of this so i thought that was what was. But kim jong il did not have his consort out in public, they tried to keep women in the background as much as possible but there are many reasons why people bring their wife to the four and one is that he was young and his father had told him to get married just before in 2009. Told him to get married and although this isnt explicit, because it would make him into a man and in korean culture, youre not a man until you get married and have your own family so that gave him that gravitas of being this married, stable man and i know were going to be talking about whats happening now but i also think that the reason he included his wife in his rule for that he introduced his wife at all is that you wanted to ensure that this is a stability of mine. Kim jong il had a ton of women but kim jong un wants to have this image of a family man so i think i suspect that hes thinking that there should be no jockeying in the back over which line of the family is going to be the next in line so i think that it makes me i think as a parent to think that he thinks ahead and hes not thistwentysomething year old kid anymore but hes a 36yearold. That was one of my favorite parts of your book is your observations in that chapter on kim jong uns wife. And you link her role with north korea and him teasing the world with the promise of a different more peaceful charming and modern north korea. And he normalizes kings status, not as a leader of north korea as a Nuclear Power but you mentioned as a husband, as afather , as a ruler on par with people like president moon, president xi. You have a quote, the carefully curated appearance with a false or side of things, a thin veneer of good humor to mask the brutality and deprivation indoor by the people while reports about the existence of a possibly multiple children, thank you for that one. But yes, i think that was definitely illuminating. Lets talk about his sister a little bit. Because that, now everybody is talking about these officials succeeding if something was to happen your thoughts on his sister . I think he, its clear he doesnt trust anybody else. They share a mother and a father so kim went through the pruning the family tree, getting rid of the five brands or marginalizing. Its anyones guess the older sister is in a position to potentially jockey for the children as they grow up but this is anyones guess. So theres a lot of speculation about where kim is and who might take over if he is incapacitated but these are real questions and north korea regardless of where he is, whether hes somewhere else, the North Koreans still have Nuclear Weapons. They have a cash ofbiological chemical weapons. They have a sophisticated Cyber Capabilities so north korea is a danger and a threat and i think that this is a reminder, kims absence is a reminder about how we should be preparing for all of these various scenarios. What is your best estimate of what is going on right now . I know that we have so many conflicting reports and nobody knows but what is your best estimate . Whats your take . Maybe while we made for him to get back on because were having technical difficulties, maybe i should talk a little bitabout what i think is going on. Just to talk a little bit about my sense of whats going on, obviously theresno confirmed reporting from ,so no one knows. No one knows whats happening with kim. But there are a couple of data points that i do find interesting. Since april 11 he has not been seen. We know that. And why while he has been out of public view in the past it is highly unusual that he is done this in at two very important events including april 15 celebration of his grandfathers birthday. And the Army Day Celebration just on saturday. And now missing this april 15 celebration is significant. Because he has i dont think ever missed that event since hes coming to power so that is noteworthy. And another interesting fact i do think is that its curious that North Koreans are very quiet about all of this. You would think that they do monitor the news coming from the world and they could come out and saythis is all fake news but theyre not doing that. I think i was asking you what your best estimate on the state of kims health was and while you were gone i was trying to talk about basically saying we dont know whats happening but it is curious. Some things are unusual. Something is off but were not going to know what it is. But the questions about, the questions remain about what the implications are of his actions and i think it would be in his interest toshow up sooner rather than later. Both for his supporters and the information penetration is not what it was like in 2014, not what it was like in 2008 rumors are going to get around and i think its interesting that all of this chatting is going on in the chinese chat rooms and that, so all of this information, all of those rumors are going to get out and i think it would probably be to his benefit andadvantage to show up sooner rather than later. But you do think that in, that he is most likely to succeed if something was to happen to him . I think given all of the resources that the government , that the regime has put forward to elevating that family line, the bloodlines and in their propaganda and in all of their history and all of their education, and all of their landscapes, it would be hard to not have a kim Family Member at the head and even if that person was a bigger head, i think there would have tobe a full Family Member at the helm. What kind of ruler would which he be . We look at history what kim jong un did. He got rid of five of the seven people helping him at his funeral procession and he marginalized the other two by the time the first two or three years and i think that kims family are not strangers to brutality and repression and they have to use it to make sure that they maintain their survival and when we talk about regime survival were talking about the kim family and not the entirety of thegovernment. But if she were to take over, with the regime be stable . I think in the year to nearterm, the elite would be very selfconscious about sticking their head up or raising their hands were trying to collaborate to their body on the west coast and i understand kims purchase over the last few years hundreds of officials as a way to keep the elites offkilter and to make sure that no one support or no ones networks get very ossified or hardened into something. Given that i would expect to see purges. I think in the near term i dont think the elites are going to start rising up to that extent. I think we have to be careful about thinking of the regime as fragile. It is fragile but also theres a lot of resistance because theres a lot of entrenched interests, money or otherwise that keeps the elites pretty much along the lines of what the regime wants. I also think that given all the things that have been happening so far in terms of the North Koreans, kim has been clear that north korea cannot trust anybody except for kim to protect them and if anything i think that what the past few years have shown is that the us is not a reliable partner. South korea is not a reliable partner. China is not a reliable partner and thats something i keys in the book about how the regime has said over the decades that the other countries, allied or not will turn their back on you if push comes toshove. Lets talk a little bit about north koreas policies towards the United States and us policy towards north korea before getting to audience questions. First, if kim is not incapacitated or dead and indeed is alive and well what can we expectfrom him in the future . Will he conclude a deal with trump . You think he prefers to deal with trump instead of President Biden . What is kims next step . Next steps this year for the coming year. So i think whats interesting is that he came into the scene in 2011, 2012 with a lot of swagger. He said North Koreans didnt have to tighten their belts anymore. That that was his fathers line during the famine. And that when he introduced this policy in 2013 of a dual track policy kim said we can have Nuclear Weapons and Economic Prosperity but whats interesting in the past year is he told his people there might have to be some belttightening, that there is going to be a prolonged struggle with the United States and things are going to be hard and people are going to have to work harder, longer faster so it seems as though kim has closed the door or at least kept it open on engaging with the us. But i dont know if he would make any big movesnow. Given the us elections and the uncertainty there. It was not in his interests to push a deal at this point given who knows what, so soon after the election and these deals whatever itis would not be implemented. So i think what were going to see is i think were going to see more tests as the northkoreans have been talking. This is something they do to try to improve their capabilities. I think were going to see ramped up cyber activities and a panel of experts in private Research Companies and think tanks have documented this very well. Thats a lowcost way of generating revenue for the regime so i think thats going to see a kim thats going to try to make, maintain his weapons. Is going to try to bolster his role and use his strength to increase the optics of strength and muddle through in a way that the us will probably muddlethrough and north korean policy in the coming months. Usually in an Election Year there are classifications and i dont think its going to be a major qualification such as an ip cbm or nuclear test but ithink theres going to be complications as he comes back. He also needs to show that hes strong and that hes not a weak person and if you look in march there were all these missile tests and i think it was gearing up to that two more provocations. Do you think hes prepared to deal with President Trump a second term or President Biden . I think things look pretty good for kim in terms of foreign relations. He has a us president who has praised him for his leadership and ignored his human rights violations. We dont have a human rights envoy in north korea. President trump and the Trump Administration has turned a blind eye towards the shorter range multiballistic missile testsand other evocative actions. The us south korea relationship is not great, the burden share agreement is outstanding and there are thousands of workers furloughed. Things with china, us china are not great. Their trading arms over whos doing a worse job with respect to the coronavirus. I think if there was more, if those more of this kind of environment that a think these are net positives for kim. So what should be our policy towards north korea put you right ultimately kim is not businessman, and well, in what President Trump says of the word, this is not what theyre looking for. And President Trump has policymaking that did not comport with reality. Kim is highly unlikely to give up Nuclear Weapons in order to get a mcdonalds franchise. What is the right approach then . What would you recommend for either President Trump or in terms of President Biden, what should we be doing . I dont put that up front in the book. I let the story developed and libya some of the episodes, various parts of his personality, various parts of his life and various parts of what north koreas history, and that build to that towards policy recommendation. That was designed to show that kim is not just about security guarantees and he requires hostile outside world to try to justify his reign. The problem with President Trumps approach about this is that kim does not want american entrepreneurs running around in his country setting up mcdonalds franchises. He does not want people building railroads or fixing their infrastructure for him because he doesnt want nonnorth korean tort uncontrollable inside the country and inspecting his people with crazy ideas about market economy and democracy and good governance. But he doesnt want that. Hes not a subcontractor body hotel your from new york is used to working with, but his incentives are different and think why to. I also think what we do, we do a great disservice to our policies and to the north Korean People. I know your strong advocate of this, is the idea that we dont treat the north Korean People as an entity or actors themselves. A lot of scholars and activists and think tank people are working on this. The problem with human rights is its not a huge u. S. Priority. Its always on a lois frankel priority. Issues like that are seen usually a secondary or tertiary issues, if at all. Its clear this administration does not see human rights issues in north korea as a priority at all but i think we need to ramp up information of penetration, give the people what they want, use technology and work with Technology Companies and activists to try to get information into north korea. On human rights President Trump to begin with, when his term began he did focus on human rights. I remember when he was in south korea gave the stated Union Address document north koreas human rights abuses. Remember when it state of the Union Address giving advice north Korean Defector and Otto Warmbier family and then switched, all this, maximal pressure to peace offensive and diplomacy, all of a sudden he completely dropped it. I completely agree with you on this information penetration. To me at such a kick information into north korea to help the people basically break free from this information blockade. But we will see on that. I have a few minutes before return to audience. If kim is life and well what would you say to him . So this was a surprise question youre going to but, i mean, yeah, free people . What should he do . What would you say if you got to spend some quality time with him . You know what i would like to ask is what is the legacy that he wants to leave behind. And who, what is the legacy you want to leave behind. And i think most people would prefer that he would say i want to have a peaceful north korea where everybody is prosperous. I suspect when he was younger maybe he at some of these thoughts, but i think that i wonder if how has his ideals or his goals from 20122020 change and what has he learned . How optimistic was he in 20112012 versus 2020 given the fact he hasnt had sanctions removal, he hasnt had much success on that front. I think thats what i would like but that something i think would be really interesting to find out from him. Make a case to do better force people . But what if he did die or pass or incapacitate . If this is it, what is his legacy then . I mean, he has its the worst of what north korea has to offer in that the elected equality of communism or socialism is gone, as people can rely on the state for the daily necessities. Its almost hobbesian in that you eat what you kill in north korea. I think about this when we talk, when you think about covid in north korea. Theres no way despite the north korea regime says theres no infections. The elite can go to the hospital. Kim jongun is building this massive General Hospital and anticipation of having to treat the elite. But its really the vast majority of the 25 Million People in north korea who are without safe water, air scrounging around for food and they have to rely on smuggling, human trafficking, sex slavery to try to get to try to scrape by. There are millions of stories in north korea in terms of all these defector stories which are so, they are so poignant about the triumph of the human will versus all of the burden and the repressive this of this particular regime. I remember, do you remember over the sum the woman who died in her apartment in seoul with her child . There were north Korean Defectors and they had died of starvation in south korea after they had defected. I wish that we could offer in an alternative vision, and i think the most prominent defectors, his winning a National Assembly seat i think provides that sense of alternative vision. Were good at talking about lots of things. Were good at talking about Nuclear Weapons, how to do nonproliferation and coercive diplomacy, et cetera. But a think we do a pretty bad job of showing north korea what could be possible. And i think we really do have to ramp up the information penetration and focusing on how to get different ideas into north korea. I cant agree with you more, and i was very happy to see because it you think us sends the right message to potential defectors. There is alternate path to them. Theres a life theres possible and south korea. We go to question from the audience. First question we have an analyst from Foreign Government federal government. So this person asks, to what extent do you think his appetite of risk has grown over time you do talk about kim jonguns weakness and tolerance in his book. Has his appetite for risk grown over time . One of the premises of the book is that kim is watching us as much as we are watching him, and he learns from what were doing and what we are not doing. There were many, many red lines, allegedly redlined that he crossed. Using this in conjunctival area from one Nuclear Weapon eight. Based on what he is done, hes been very aggressive. There have been other than sanctions which the air was let out with the summit, hes still standing. He did three icbm tests in 2017. That long ago was a red line that North Koreans would be inviting trouble if they did that. But they got sanctions and so did a Massive Nuclear test as well. He threatened during his reign, he threatened to hit south korea. Hes done night training for commando raids. He has had mock displays of the south korean president ial blue house so that they can do training on how to raid it. He then done some pretty brazen things, and i think the punishment has been pretty subdued. There were sanctions, i thought them maximum Pressure Campaign and it was a good policy but i think all of that kind of went away when President Trump said i dont even believe in maximum pressure, and that he is dismissing north koreas human rights violations. So i think hes become bigger, batter in boulder because he has perceived a lack of political will to respond to him or punish. You know this, sue, that sanctions are hard to implement. You have to check on your side. You have to make sure that all of our partners across the globe wherever North Koreans are has the capacity to find out illicit activities that are taking place in their country. So i think he has a bigger acceptance or risk, but also wonder, this is something ill be watching for is how much of the Economic Issues what i worry about is his default, his aggressiveness. Its not being shaped in being a self reflective but what he needs to do, but that since in weakness in one sector of the economy, that he might go all in on the other sector which is the Nuclear Weapons program and military readiness. The Economic Situation is even more uncertain with the measures they taken to prevent coronavirus. Now taking some draconian measures. Theres a secondary effect that. So implications to the economy and will see. Particularly if he was sick if the major surgery and recovers, i wonder if this would make it more risky and future in terms of his actions or what . I mean, it might have psychological impact, right . Yeah, and he has to show strength, otherwise how do you keep the elite in line . How do you keep the military in line . Which is strange to say for somebody who is overweight and has issues, and its striking to me have inconsistency or the business of kim jongun on with his protruding belly smoking a cigarette and ordering the north korean navy to strip down and swim in the ocean for an impromptu drill. But he has to show strength, perception of strength is in doing these things. The institute for defense analysis ask him is said north koreas senior military leaders fear kim jongil but did not respect him. What is your view of kim jongun . As you know one of the reasons why kim survived, is elite force. We know elite loyalty, elite loyalty towards kim ilsung, elite support for kim jongil. What you think of these views of kim jongil . How much do they really support him . Im not sure that, im not sure thats exactly the best question. Its more are they willing to i mean, they are willing to support him in the way that he protects their lifestyle. Thats something to be mindful of, is that as odious as kim jongun might be in his treatment of his people, there are still interests that are tied to him, and the way he is perched people and demoted and shuffled leaders around, that also means that they have a stake in the north korean economy as it is. The military and the party are very much involved in moneymaking operations, and the closer you are to the regime the more money you can make, the more opportunities you could have. So i think after think of it in terms of not loyalty to the kim jongun itself what he represents, that kind of stability and the privilege that they are used to. Okay. We have more questions . Someone was asking about how this is more book related. How are you handling book to her. I know today was a big day. Youre hoping for book tour. How are you handling that . This is your first book. What was the best part and worst part about writing this book . Yes, so i was nervous obviously about the book tour and not being able to show people what i had done and what i had produced. Theres always a a silver linig and i think having this webinar with you, sue, its different from having it at brookings in auditorium that holds maybe 150, 200 people. But with this we can reach hundreds of people from across the country who can share in our conversation and hear about north korea, especially given whats going on in the news. I think the worst part, the worst part was writing late at night. It was having my brookings day job, coming home, putting the kids to bed after dinner and then starting work at 9 p. M. And working until 3 a. M. , and doing that for a year. And now i still have that schedule where i cant sleep until two or 3 00 in the morning and i get up at seven. I thought you got the heavy blanket. I got the gravity blanket and its not helping. [laughing] oh, no. Okay. Question from washington, d. C. You had that question is answered from New Providence new jersey. This question from washington, d. C. How was kim introduced to china as a young man . One of the first things that he did as leader as he was consolidating power was that he killed his uncle by marriage in 2013, and one of the criticisms of him, in the indictment was that it to me context with the chinese and that he was more subservient to the chinese and working with the chinese, and the something you want to avoid when youre an official in north korea having too much for in contact, in that it makes them highly suspicious. And, of course, there were rumors during the grueling process that he went with his father to china. But the Chinese Government was pretty open about this. There was no criticism. The Chinese Government. Beijing was the first to say congratulations to kim jongun on taking over after his fathers death. You have beijing at that point that was very cautious and sensitive to making sure that they have their contact and making sure that they didnt offend kim jongun. So this is kind of like the tyranny of the week, that even though you have this relatively weak country, you have there is a sense without north korean stability you need to have access to kim and at some sort of relationship with him. One question was, as has it become easier to analyze north korea from the time of kim jongil to kim jongun, given its Army Defectors running new services, sneaking campus and in north korea and presumably Better Technology . Is it easier . Absolutely, in terms of how much, because of technology. This is all the result of activist work end effector Organization Work and organizations like the National Endowment for democracy. As was the state department. I think there is a lot of information coming out. Some of the things we hear about the regime in this grassroots way is you get a flavor of the atmosphere and some of the things that we are, that give us the flavor or snapshot of whats going on any particular part of the region. Theres a lot of complaining at a think theres great information to come out of north korea. But what we see is there is a lot of anxiety, a lot of some isolated part of the regime but the problem is these criticisms are not connected. These isolated incidents of critiquing the regime and not the harbinger of a people rising up. We have just time for one last question from audience, and that is given the fact information on the outside world has been leaking into north korea over the years, what are your thoughts on why theres not been yet uprising from his people or inside assassination . So why has there not been a pricing . The people are too isolated. They are not connected in that way that would spur a collective action. And collective action or protests, you know, when the arab spring happened, there was a sense that this is the start of a new air with the people rise up as a result of technology. But what weve seen in technology in north korea is that they are not connected to each other and that these are totally monitored and that people are still very careful about what they say. The horizontal connections that need to be, that are necessary for any kind of protest you are not going to see. I think there is, and this is the irony of all this, is i think north Korean People are so resilient that they are able to adapt, as many decades of living under the kim family, the lid to the famine, they lived through weather events. They have lived through a period of want, and you are living through this regime. The difference that is they are making money and making lots of it. You are not going to see massive uprisings as a result of the fact that there are enough people earning money. I have to say this one point, too. Kim is trying to encourage it. Kim is trying to encourage the you know, you too can make it in by having kelly gang become the center cosmopolitanism and modern luxury, and its a way of trying to keep those desires contain and directed towards, inward, torture selfimprovement versus outward and overthrowing the regime. And if the regime can keep uptodate with peoples aspirations and hope, i think you are going to have a status quo. Okay. I think our time has come to an end. Thank you. To jeff any final comments. Was no. Just to thank you for everything and to brookings and the valentine and all of you in the audience who joined us today. Im really grateful, im really proud of this book and hope that you like it as much as i enjoyed writing it. So i i also want to think everyone for joining. Again kudos the kim the most insightful book on the subject that is very timely and of great importance to u. S. National security, you know, writing highly informed subjective analysis of one of the least known leaders in the world, thats not an easy task. And i have to tell you, this book is highly readable in terms of history, the narrative on north korea. I promise it will resonate with everyone. Whether you know a lot about north korea or know nothing about north korea. I personally find it very enlightening because she is very dispassionate in a way but very thoughtful, insightful analysis. What i really loved about the book is that she goes into in explanation of why and how she came to assessment and evaluation. Sober analysis of kim jongun, its very revelatory, even socalled nuclear expert. For example, if youre talking about describing and what transpired, she doesnt just talk about she elaborates on what happen but what the event reveals about kim jongun. And so on. So the book is very revelatory. Again, thank you jung for writing this book. Thank you all for joining us today. Not go out and get this book and enjoy reading it. Thank you, sue. Tonight on booktv in primetime New York Times reporter chronicles his journey to reconnect with the south asian culture and family. We took a look at all the programs with political satirist dj or work. During an Author Program hosted by haymarket books City University of new york professor Ruth Wilson Gilmore offers her thoughts on in the mass incarceration of the u. S. Heres a portion of her talk. In Los Angeles County, decades ago, the aclu brought the conditions of confinement case against the county for the horrendous conditions in the jails. Over the years, the aclu was in charge of taking care, keeping an eye on what the county did to remedy the horrific conditions. About 18 years ago the aclu invited a few abolitionists to come and talk to them about something they had never imagined, which was perhaps the way the remedy the problem with the l. A. County jail was not to have a jail at all, rather than to build a better jail. Slowly but surely this way of understanding became central to the struggle in Los Angeles County over those jails. 16 years later abolitionists who joined forces with the forces of reform managed to persuade the Los Angeles County board of supervisors, one of the biggest governments by number of people in the United States, not to build new jail but rather to put the billions of dollars that wouldve gone into that, into housing, healthcare, and other lifeaffirming projects. So abolitionists is present. Abolition is how we connect wit with, grow from, and multiply organizations that have the capacity to lift the movement. I learned that many years ago that we are who are talking hes sometimes on skype, we need to lift the movement, not to lead it, to lift it. To lift it by showing how at the Domestic Violence people were central to the formation of abolition, as a movement. That mutual aid organizations which are now flourishing everywhere because of emergency of covid19, the unions, food, healthcare, nurses, building trades, all of these organization have become in one way or another connected with the movement in the direction of abolition, because abolition is about abolishing the condition under which prison became the solution to problem, rather than abolishing the building we call prison. To watch the rest of this Program Visit our website, booktv. Org and search Ruth Wilson Gilmore. Good afternoon. Looking to white house history live. My name is Stewart Mclaurin and im the president of the White House Historical association. Today were going to have an exciting conversation with the head of our rubenstein senator whitehouse history and one of our historians on a brandnew book, the cabinet George Washington and the creation of an american institution. Ordinarily we would be doing this event at the carriage house, historic decur
comparemela.com © 2020. All Rights Reserved.