Transcripts For CSPAN2 In Depth In Depth Highlights 20240713

Story author of bestselling from slavery to freedom appeared 2006. The first white man that engage me that i remember when i was in high school and it was a man from the afternoon newspaper. The tribune did not employ any young black newsboys. I was employed with another job i wasnt always clear what it was but in the afternoon i helped him tied the newspapers and wrap them or whatever we di did. That i help to deliver the newspapers. But i did not collect. He collected the money and he had all the contacts i had no contact with the newspaper all theyll know they knew i was employed by him. But there were no black people to serve as newsboys. My father was a lawyer. I had contact with white people through him, but most casual and not serious just being introduced. Was born in a village in oklahoma south of tulsa about 60 miles south and my father and mother move there in 1912 because he had experience from Shreveport Louisiana and these experiences were not pleasant so they moved to when all black town to give up on the white people because of the way they treated him he was thrown out of court in shreveport so from where he was practicing going to an all white town or the allblack town at least he would have that humiliation he experienced in shreveport. I wasnt born so they moved their 1912. What was that experience like . Because then they separate the methodist from the baptist and the baptist were hard on my mother and father. And the result was the strife was not racial but religious and after a while, we lived there several years after i was born they were not happy there because it was such a Small Community it wasnt practical for a lawyer to pursue his profession so my father in 1920 moved on to tulsa oklahoma and left us behind my mother was teaching and then with my first year of school to move on to tulsa at the end of the school year and then the family would be reunited or put back togethe together. The tulsa riots happen 1921. Yes. We were just about to move to tulsa. We were all packed actually we are waiting for our father to come get us and then on the train to tulsa where he had already made arrangements to get a house for us and that sort of thing. So we waited and he never came. Absent radio or television or telephone or any kind of communication we didnt know what it happened. Finally my mother read in the newspaper discovered that there was a race riot with many casualties. So that had anxiety and apprehension even more we didnt know if he was living or dead. For about ten days later she got a brief letter from him saying he was all right and unharmed except that everything that he had acquired law office burned to the ground the house was burned and he was in detention during those days and could not get in touch with my mother this is First Contact and said he didnt know when he would be there it would be sometime before he could make it down there. Was even more important and then to make good contact with the victims of the riot suing the city and the state and the Insurance Companies and that kept him busy he was practicing law at that time the entire black community was burned to the ground. What sparked the riot . A young black man was accused of sexually assaulting a young white girl on an elevator. He had been acquitted. But the White Community felt justice had not been served. So most of them felt that the blacks should be held accountable. So even though he is being accused they said they would get him out of jail and to commit that kind of caught on the harm to him to teach all the people a lesson. That meant he would be seized and lynched and then they went down to the courthouse armed and were about to take him and give him protection but he was assured nothing would happen to him and that they should go back to their part of town which they were willing to do but as they retreated, someone fired a gun and the rest is history. Host good afternoon our guest is doctor John Hope Franklin author or coauthor of 17 books wellknown for his book from slavery to freedom the most recent is the autobiography here is the cover and we will begin taking your calls in a few minutes. Here is a picture of your mother, Molly Franklin what did she do . She was a graduate of the University First in the spring of oklahoma and then tulsa im sorry where i was born but shortly after i was born she took charge of me and took me to school with her everyday about me in the back of the room with a pencil and paper and told me to be quiet. I was quiet. And she felt i would just be scratching on the paper but she was teaching the children she had the alphabet on the board i that that was more interesting than anything i could do so when she was going around one day to see with the children were doing she came back to see what i was doing i had alphabets and letters and simple sentences and she was astounded to learn i had taken and everything she was teaching. Im not certain when i learned to read and write but it was about ten and from that point on i was a student. Host how weird is it to be africanamerican in 1950 with two parents that were College Graduates . I think it was fairly rare. And to confound from the reconstruction. And with plessy against ferguson and. And that brought an end to whatever. With the fights. For african americans. And with the 19th century. To have some state schools and then scattered throughout the south. But you dont have large numbers and going to colleges and it was rather remarkable. And you have a very interesting point many decades later. Then young black men. So black girls could not handle themselves in the world and then to become the victims and with that activity or exploitation whatever. And then to educate there was never a time but those that were exposed to Higher Education my grandparents were slaves yes. They were slaves and tennessee my grandmother and grandfather on my father side were slaves the mississippi. And they were sold to indians and transported to the indian territory where my grandfather as a young man grew up and married my grandmother. And then to become a rancher. And then with the state of oklahoma. I got hooked on orchids in 1959 at the university of hawaii. I came back when i was living in brooklyn. And then with the greenhouse and between and with that collection of orchids at the botanical garden. And then told me a great deal. And was chicago. With a much larger greenhouse. And then i came to and with that first hobby greenhouse all those sometimes anything larger than 17 feet and then to become a slave to the orchid. [laughter] how many orchids are in here . And the banana tree. And all the things. And all the time. And nonstop. And it is remarkable. So i enjoy it all the time so much. Where do you acquire the orchids . And then from above to have a permit from the department of agriculture to bring orchids in from brazil some are from the far east, southeast asia,. But coming into the greenhouse what you didnt see yesterday that i bought this from bombay 1976. Taking care of that for 30 years . Yes. Yes. I have some offspring of it to. Is not any highpowered scientific method. That is how they start . Yes. From bombay india. And then it has the new leaves in the new shoots. This little fellow will grow up but then the mayor gave me this when i was there a few months ago. So this is named after me lady cavalier John Hope Franklin. This orchid over here is named for my wife i need a franklin anita franklin. It was developed by a place in South Carolina and they were very friendly and very fond of my wife. And wanted to do something in her memory. Is it weird for a historian to have a hobby like this . And that from the main activity and it is always challenging to learn a lot. And for a person that did not have a scientific that was always fascinating and to be enthralled by the orchids. But but when i was a little boy so this is a continuation. I have piles of books there did you actually count the number . No. Its hard to count books. You are right i write a newsweek column is that really a book . And then you write more columns and then theres another collection to overlap. I think its very hard. Which sold the most . The one you have freedom to choose. It was a bestselling Nonfiction Book of 1980 and sold 1 million copies. How many languages hasnt been translated quick. I forget but Something Like 20. What about this book . Published in 1962. It sold well over half a million copies. And when it was First Published in the New York Times and with the Washington Post and the only review technically and the reason is no doubt in defense of capitalism and free markets and now is not a popular topic at that time. This is only been out a couple of years. My wife and my memoir. How long have you been married to the woman on the cover . 62 years. She is about the same age. She doesnt know her age exactly because she was born now i think it is ukraine but she refers to it as poland. It was russia and came to the United States just before world war i as a child. But her birth certificate has been lost, it was burned up in the First World War in that town in east europe went up in flames. There is a question if she is one year younger or older than i am. We are not sure. Host if i read the book right, you said you dont read . I read it more than i used to but i dont regularly. Why . First of all i live out here in San Francisco i read the wall street journal in the local paper daily. When we lived in new york i did read the New York Times but in general i have found its much too wordy for my purposes. I dont have enough time to read it if im going to read it i have to read it and im not very sympathetic with the general editorial position. Host what other authors had an impact on you . No doubt the writer had the greatest impact was friedrich i want hayek. And we talked about that on book notes and the road to serfdom for which i have writte written. Did you know him . Yes. And i first met him in 1946. Host why was the book so important . When i say hayek influenced me its not just the road to serfdom but the other books like the constitution of liberty, it is because it help me organize my thoughts the way society should be organized what was special about a free society and the prerequisites. And i was generally sympathetic to those ideas that hayek was a very deep thinker and if you read him you cant read him without thinking. And without those basic ideas. Host when did he die . Im not sure the exact date. And mustve been ten or 15 years ago. He was born in 1896 i think and live to the age i think 90. That wouldve taken him through 1986. Host who in your lifetime have you most disagreed with on economic theory . Thats a very hard question to ask. But to pick out a single name from that that going back the people that influenced me are not only to their books with that influence on me. And burns who later head of the chairman Federal Reserve board was my teacher when i was at Rutgers University and he was my mentor for much of my life. And of course my teachers in chicago doing graduate work. And then with a great influence. Host in your book the two lucky people in your autobiography, you mention the whole discussion of nobel prize in 1976 it took a number of years for you to get it. What impact did that have quick. It didnt have that much of an impact. Host what about once you got it . The major impact is not on me but on the publicity. I dont think it had much impact on me as a person but it did alter my opportunities and made me more visible and available. Host we talked to you your husband for two hours he had a lot to say. I heard it all. I never like to talk very much. I know its in my jeans. Host so your picture is on the cover. And i had an equal role to write it. Almost everything i have done is in writing but i dont go out to speak about it. And i refuse to be on the Television Program. I was very careful. I did a lot of the planning and the discussion. But nothing was done in advance. Host you have any reason why . No. I dont really like to compete. He speaks well. He has done it all his life. Why should i compete with him . [laughter] host i asked him why it has worked. We never compete with one another. Host what about economics in your life . I was trained my idea of being married at least in the beginning from very different that what people these days feel about getting married. I did not intend to have a career or attempt to equal my husbands. That was one of the sources of our success. Host where did your family come from . From what was russia when we were there. Now its not russia anymore its ukraine i guess. I keep track of what has happened to it because i was an infant when i left and i have no ties to that part of the world. Host where did you grow up . Portland oregon. Host your parents . I guess the main reason our relatives were there. My father came to the United States twice and the second time he earned enough money to send for the rest of us. Host he went to college why did you transfer . Primarily because my brother was responsible for my complete education. And wanted me to go to chicago. And then as much as 2000 a year but we thought we both could live on it but my mother thought i was too young. And then graduated from high school. And then we persuaded her that i was old enough. You remember the first time you met this man . Yes. The first graduate course at university. The professor arranged, you have heard the stories so many times probably, arrange the class alphabetically so he could identify people. Mine began with the b and his begin with the letter f and we sat next to each other i complete the story that i was the only girl in the class. Host in the entire class . Was at the same ratio in other classes in chicago . Mostly and economics. There were very few. In the thirties very few women went to graduate school. Host you told me briefly before we went on the air that you completed your work for your doctorate but didnt get your phd. Why not . Why not . I worked on it. For one year after we were married but during that year i also had a job. And then we move from one place to another one year in wisconsin and then washington then new york. I forget the sequence. And then we decided we wanted to have a family. That took a long time. Only two kids but we lost the first one. The first one was lost out of one after delivery than that took one year out of my life that i went to work again and then with the hopes we could produce a child. Host where are your two children today . In california. My daughter has been ever since she went to berkeley she decided then she was never going to leave california and she never has. She graduated from berkeley and then law school and got her degree. And San Francisco as a matter of fact. And my son lived in chicago for five or six years. And then to come out to california and lives in santa clara. Host our guest here from San Francisco on book tv doctor Milton Friedman and his wife rose who was also here on the cover and is your most successful book. Yes. What do remember about working together on this book . It was from what was already said we have the Television Program notes. So we started with one chapter and then ended with the other person so we really dont know who wrote which words. Thats true about all the books we have written. And that was the shortest time because we had a deadline they wanted to have it out in time to be available when the Television Program was shown. So we started on it and marc march 1979. And then to be published by labor day they got it published by january is when the tv program started. Host what does she do that you dont or vice versa . Everything. Nothing. We both use a computer now. Host we talked about aging your both 88 years old. You surprised at how well you did . You move around. Everybody says we are bouncing around. I dont feel that we are bouncing around frankly. [laughter] many things i cant do today that i used to be able to do. I dont have the energy i used to have. Any advice for people would you do anything differently . Maybe i wouldve lived more extravagantly because we were always saving our pennies. Saving them for a rainy day that never came. I saved my pennies. You would say youre saving them for a rainy day and living in a perpetual drizzle. Host do you disagree with your husband economically . Very rarely. Host did you start from the same point . Thats point. We learned from the same teachers. We grew up in the same kind of home. Caller hello doctor friedman, either of them. [laughter] i have a question ive been wanting to ask someone that is knowledgeable about the situation for a long time. So with the minimum wage that automatically goes to inflation. And that was just my own idea. What do you think . Host will the minimum wage lead to inflation if you raise it . I dont think it will to inflation but it will lead to unemployment because people who are hiring these people they dont feel that i on that they can pay them more so therefore they will reduce the employees. Host at this point of the discussion there is a sense that they will pass an increase. Wire the republicans going to go along with it . [laughter] they go along with everything these days. Because it is superficially political. But on the surface things look very good. And then for them to have a higher minimum wage. And thes indirect effects that are unseen that counterbalance the good effect. Because if you raise the price you will buy less of it. Sugar, automobiles, the higher the price the less people will buy. If wages are higher than they will buy less. How does that lead to inflation . There is an element of truth to what he says that if you raise the minimum wage too much, and create massive unemployment it would be a great pressure to do something about unemployment. What does that lead to . Inflation. As a way to literally reducing the real value and then to ask why they would agree to a dollar minimum wage in two years and part of that they agreed to it is because its not really a raise. Its a raise of nominal terms and prices have been going up. You havent had much inflation for three or four or 5 Percent Inflation over the last few years. 6. 15 two years from now is probably about the same level of real minimum wage is 5. 15 two years ago. Books are about people. How many have you interviewed over the years . Thousands. When i was in the program at the fine art station, 25 years, five days a week writers, actors, all sorts of people and activists. So to give them to the Chicago Historical society. They call me a distinguished fellow, god forgive me. So there are between nine and 10000 tapes. Host in the book about you you are quoted as saying i have given voice to the voices of those we never hear. Tony parker was a remarkable man who died recently. I did what he did when he was alive in london einstein is celebrated thats true. There is no need to the celebrity. So the word that i like dislike is ordinary because that is encroached with the book of the depression or a matter of race so to the voiceless. It was a contemporary charles dickens. And he was a prototype. And this guy capture the voices of people who never heard the Chimney Sweep the mistress or the chambermaid. He was astonished at what he found out. So when alex haley wrote roots, the first thing was to the land of his forbearers to speak to historians as long proceeded as a pattern. So what i am doing is ancient except i have a tape recorder. So i describe nixon myself that all i take and that all is all that i am so i hope are purposes are different. But thats what i do. And to the voiceless. Host where do you write . I do when i dont i have a combination. At my house there is a typewriter. Its electric. No computer. Most of my letters are written longhand. But you mention the computer. No. I believe in the refrigerator because where else can i freeze my martini glass . I believe in appliances. I was saved by technology. Had a triple bypass a few years ago five years ago if not for that i would be dead and here i am condemning technology. And then ask my colleague to repeat the question so i have a hearing aid is stateoftheart but doesnt do any good. A bionic man not quite informed yet. It is an experiment. I realize that and flying without a net. Host how does somebody with the name lewis get the name stu stud. I read the novel by James T Fowler in the thirties a chicago guy and i was taken with the trilogy of books but then it got me into trouble. The book working, there is a fireman in the book and soprano language talking very colorful idioms. So this is a letter that i got from george. She missed it but a librarian is not too exciting such as when you wrote the book working one of the people was a spy and from Jerry Falwell and looking at dirty words and said mr. Cooper request is come for a book and i said to the subscriber we dont have pornographic literature and that its called working studs by charcoal and thats when i knew i had a bestseller. My father was ill he was a tailor. So we were alone some money to go to the rooming house and to run a hotel so really those were my universities. I dont know why went to law school. So what are you going to do . Host why did you like law school . And the Partnership Call me crazy. The wpa writers project with a Civil Servant for a time and washington making 12. 60 a year and then became a gangster and then in the soap operas. Argo all the soap operas were the same. Guiding light, it was the same script so i always had a job. Many jobs lousy tenure like a college professor. One thing led to another then i became a disc jockey. And then to play classical and jazz and that i do in opera. And then or the singers. And then Louis Armstrong follows. So what is that kind of program. So finally i wind up on this Radio Station and then called and said you should do this more often. And then to eavesdrop to an actual conversation. So that some of my interviews appeared and then to press one day is an idea for a book. Host what was studs place . Its a Radio Program about a neighborhood restaurant run by me, myself, who was okay but as a waitress and there is a handyman and he was a very good singer and shark play the piano. But now i realize with the full aspect of American Life and they thought there was a studs plays. Twenty years later what happened to the place . Where is it . It is here and here. That was it. Then i got in trouble because mccarthy days came along and i had a big mouth with anti jim crow and anti price control and rent control and i signed petitions and then to say you are valuable property. And that i say but they are in trouble. And thats when i get smart. But then to come out against cancer and then people laugh when i tell them. So finally they said why are you duped . You are a fool. To this day they say you are heroic. They dont know what they are talking about. We were scared. But my ego did not escape. So my vanity did it. And then i got out of the station as a result. And then i wanted then to say i must be the host of her program on cbs radio and insisted. And said sinus. I said i dont sign those things. She knew about me and my big mouth so then tell them to find another one if you want side that will then he disappeared and vanished and the show went on. Nobody said no back in those days. How old are you . May 16 of the 88 i was born when the titanic sank. You got the story of my life. Giants of jazz. That was early 1957. Its for young people. And rent for young people. But then in 1965. So go back to the jazz book that jazz is the music of multitude for more than 70 years deep divisions have been playing it couldve only happened here in the us. But jazz remember it is of ken burns. And of africanamerican. But basically it was an expression connected with work songs. s of a new form came in it was improvisation. But in that aspect of jazz. And with that Country Blues singer. And then to describe the things i wanted to be. But it was on my bed. And in a poor mans mind of that definition. Ten years later coming out in 1967. That was a big line. But then that billionaire to sell the detergents and deodorants. And during that time of the Civil Rights Movement and the cybernetics revolution what about doing a book about a chinese village . And because of revolution how about you attack the American Village . He was right. So he got some claim from leaders and critics and what about the depression. So that is how it began. Host studs terkel will be joining us the next two hours. Talk about the book hard times and in the book you write about the invisible scar during the depression. It is depression survivors having quirks by gathering things. So as a group i was interviewing he was a college kid but they spoke street talk and they have the lights on. They are going downstairs to eat and then got the tv set. Well i am of a different generation. And the nursing home. So these are quirks. But the big scar is of keeping quiet. The only time kids are told you have it so good but that humiliation wanting to work and not find a job to be on release which is the equivalent of welfare today. Host you were a teenager during the great depression. Yes. 1929 the crash officially began but that october day, i was 17 years old. We worship the free market. That was our religion. Too much Big Government. It was Big Government of those daddies and granddaddys of those. I was talking to a guy like Alan Greenspan of his day, a junior partner at Goldman Sachs advisor to truman and kennedy and what happened . I dont know. You dont know . There is tickertape then jump going out of windows and there is the announcement from whom . So save them and they forgot that. The purpose of all of these books are to recall history from the bottom up. But thats not what happened 50 years ago. The ties to world war ii was well packed. And from the great days in washington. And this which wraps around the top floor with this wonderful wooden floor that you could see. And then with that occupation. With that great distinction it was used by clint eastwood. And the president ial motorcade goes up. And then came back and all the walls were covered with the knockoff panting on paintings. Thats connecticut avenues north and south of the phones in effect from the white house up to maryland and across as massachusetts avenue. That is the sort of axis of the city. Im told that this is run by the National Security agency to monitor the going on through the days of the old soviet union. You probably cant see it behind me, but on the horizon as the russian compound. There is the naval observatory buildings on the grounds of which of course the vice presidenvicepresident , then theh embassy beyond that. Then there is general mcclellan, the man from whom he had asked to borrow the armys general and they had no use for it. He ran against as a proslavery and have secrets from the other side. He is still pointing south in the wrong direction it would have been that way. A typical writing day for me depends on how the previous day was. I tend to work late at night and if its been successful and may not have gone to bed until 3 00, so the next writing they probably wouldnt start until say noon. But if you had to average the day it would be like this. Get up, try to inhale some coffee, forcing myself to eat oatmeal. Before lunchtime i wouldnt get much done except answering emails, sending off whatever had accumulated. The world of telegrams. Just coping and then having plunge which i enjoyed reading by myself. And isnt jolting being a writer is being a good reader. The main thing is to keep testing yourself against other writers that are better than you. That is what caught on as a writer permanently the risk of having to say i dont know why i bother. I think there are certain authors with whom much have the books and. I know i have in this apartment every single word he ever wrote including his expense reports to the bbc. Most of james joyce and not all of what house because there are some books that are not worth keeping. Even trotsky, [inaudible] salman rushdie, i have pretty much all of what theyve writt written. I like to think i have a life rather than a job or career, and its all to do with reading and writing. Thats how i make my living but its also how i am who i am and what i love. Theres nothing else i can do, and i chose this and it chose me. This is one of your more recent books how religion poisons everything. When you look through your body of work, religion or atheism kind of permeates. My review of Mother Teresa in a way it is and what to do with the origins of the virginia statute on religious freedom and another book about thomas paine asked to discuss a bit his other works of reason. Most important of all for people to be free. Host was thomas paine and atheist . Guest it is the view that there may have been a first cause creator. The universe seems to justify some kind of order. This is before einstein and darwin of course. They didnt answer prayers or the politics of the war, quite different from the advance of the view that god has a plan for you that you must okay and you must claim to know his mind. Its a nonsensical position. Host who is mrs. Jean walked . Guest she was my scripture teacher when i was eight, until i was about 12. At the little boys boarding school. I was sent off at the age of eight. Made a man of me, and she was a fine old lady, a widow, very little cultural education, but she would take us on nature walks. I used to be able to tell trees and plants. Then she would just scripture. We would have to go through the bible. It is required to have religious instruction. One day she oversteps her mark in tand tried toin to try to dio roles and discussing vegetation she pointed out it was largely green and she said it is proof of the glory of god because he could have made a vegetation or range or read or something that would clash with our lives whereas greene is the most restful color for our eyes and how decent it was of god to make the trees and the grass that way. And i sat there and i thought thats absolute nonsense. I didnt know anything at this point, photosynthesis, anything about evolution or dna. But i knew if anything its the other way around, but the eyes have adapted to the vegetation. So that was my first moments of thinking im not sure that i trust to be points you are teaching me about religion. And of course i thought i was the only one, as all of us do. As you get older you find many people you have host were you raised in the church . Guest required education requires that you know, my father was a refugee from a very strict baptist family with very tyrannical patriarchal i remember my grandfather, and my mother was from a jewish family originally from what is now poland but when they left it would have been germany. And for those reasons didnt want it to pass and had succeeded in doing so. Host when did you become a u. S. Citizen . Guest my birthday. Host why did you become a u. S. Citizen . Guest i applied shortly after the attack on the United States in september of 2001. I made up my mind to do so anyway. That and the arguments that came out of it. There were certain forces that made me realize i have come to identify with my country of adoption and as the gesture because i thought if i didnt do it id have to tak i would havee papers of citizenship. Host do you miss england . Guest biplane im going there tomorrow and a lot of my best friends. Even if i was going someplace else, so no i never regretted leaving if that is what you mean. Since i was quite young, i had a very strong impulse. Host you are well known as a smoker. Its a fivehour flight a long time for you . Guest no, its a funny thing is why it is such a stupid habit. I dont really need it. I mean, it doesnt bother me now. I used to be able to smoke on cspan, unbelievably. It doesnt bother me now being here three hours. If you would like to give me a glass of sherry since we are going to lunchtime that would be great. [laughter] host another of your books, why orwell matters. Guest he was an english man born in 1983. The book came out on what would have been the centennial. He made at the second half and died in january, 1950 just after completing what was his bestknown book, 1984. What else was he . Upper middle class is not with any money or capital, rather being in the opium business in the british, he worked for the emperor as a policeman before [inaudible] and from then on identified basically with the victims. And as a lowwage media worker. When fascism came, he went to spain and try to defend. Went with a leftist militia communist party in barcelona, golf shop igot shot in the throa fascist communist and wrote a wonderful book. Out of these experiences, the reason i say that hes important above all of the writers of the 20th century would be the big three issues of the century, fascism, communism and imperialism. Orwell was the only one to do all of those perfectly. With no more resources than a person of integrity and intellectual honesty. He never had a steady job or a steady publisher or proper just often books were bad or suppressed or the articles went unpublished. So, he is my exemplary case of how much a single individual with a bit of nerve and literary ability can do in a very short life. Host if he were alive today, who would he be writing for a . Guest at a certain point, people do this because of the reputation for integrity. A lot of people want to invoke them and have them on their site. Its not relevant to ask anymore because he would be more than 100 now comes with the game stops i think before that. Host i want to show some of the other books over the years. This is the long short war, the postponed liberation of iraq, a rather short book about iraq. A pamphlet. The trial of Henry Kissinger. Do people still want to talk about Henry Kissinger . Guest absolutely, they do and they should. He is still around. His advice is still sometimes sought and understood by the administration. It might explain how badly things were going. Remember, paul bremmer the catastrophic postliberation was a member and kissinger himself wrote an oped piece saying we have to be careful with iraq because of the setting majority. That is what they knew about this rather important state. Host well, speaking of guest it goes back to the malign influence that can still be felt over the place. Host speaking of iraq, the cspan book tv bus travels the country and it goes to book fairs in bookstores, and often times we ask people if they have a question for our guests. One gentleman that we spoke to had a question for you about iraq. This is from garden city idaho right outside of boise. They make my question for mr. Kissinger, you were a strong supporter of the iraq war when it began in actually beforehand. Could you maybe tell me how you feel and if you regret at all the role you played in getting the support for both president bush and tony blair. Guest i regret more not having done this more forcefully and 91 when my view of it was rather different. Being removed earlier than he was. If we were to have an inquest on the war, which i think we should, i agree with the gentleman on that in the accounting of what went wrong and how the statecraft failed us, then [inaudible] to leave in 1991 the socalled realist position, kissingers friends of general scowcroft, and other factions of the president himself. I think that is where things were critically wrong. 12 years of sanctions. Host another topic in the book the clintons and this is the same book that came out with two titles. No one left to lie to cover the values of the worst family in paperback and hardback no one left to lie to, the triangulations of William Jefferson clinton. Host the pink one is the later expanded edition is almost a paperback. There is an extra chapter one regarding the first lady. By the very important and never asked or never discussed question of whether or not the women reported mr. Clinton. Ive interviewed three women and i would say its sure as can be they are telling the truth. So, thats the difference. If youre scrolling through the bookstore. She discusses her work, reads from her pulitzer prizewinning book beloved and describes what it was like to win the nobel prize in literature. For me it seems enormously long time. He was 5yearsold when the emancipation proclamation happened, and he was kind and frightened because he kept hearing the adults are saying its coming. They had to pull them out and explained to him things. Im very keenly aware of the lifethreatening circumstances under which they lived, the difficulty might have been sad as a young couple. Any kind of miraculous thing i suppose in my generation. I just knew i really wanted to go to college. My mother was not interested in by getting married. She didnt think that was necessarily the ultimate goal. Rather she thought that it shouldnt come too soon. She and my father were very supportive and told me to listen, we dont have enough for you to get a full college education, but we do have enough for one year. And i said thats all i wanted, just one year. So thats the way i went, convinced that i could survive financially for one year in 1949 and 1950. I was able to do the rest myself, but that is how iffy it was in those days about getting a college education. Host not just for africanamericans, but for women. How did you finance the rest of the education . Guest i had temporary jobs. One was in washington at the university where i was an undergraduate, and actually, my mother got the job and was so happy that i was here, at college. So she took a job at night. She made 15 a week, 5 a night. Host how did chloe, your birth name, become Toni Morrison . Guest a little bit of lunacy i think, in some vanity. My name was chloe. I love the name. Children couldnt pronounce it into some adults would refuse to and they would call me chlo were other things that were not chloe. Because my sister and i were so close in age, they were always together and they called us lois and chloe, so i didnt really have separate name to make a long story short. But when i got away, i used my name, which was a short name of my favorite name. [inaudible] host you married and became a mother. Were you writing at this point in your life . Guest i think i was, but i wasnt, i certainly didnt call myself a writer. I was a teacher, and i was interested in the work of some local people here in washington. Some were faculty members, some were artists. They had a group of writers, and i was invited to attend. And i brought with me some Little Things that i had worked on as a very young person, and one of them was a story that i had to refresh because they wouldnt let me com, if i didnt bring anything new. So i wrote the story and i brought it to that meeting. A few months later it was the heart of the first novel i wrote. Host and it was called . I would like to show this to the audience and as i do, would you explain how the book actually made it to print from the beginning . Guest well, i wrote the story for the club. I remember my oldest son was hanging on my shoulder, pulling out my earrings while i was writing and i remember him spitting up on the manuscript. [laughter] i always tell the story it must be important because i didnt wipe it off right away, i wrote around it. [laughter] went to the meeting, have a good time and took some serious criticism of it. Some daylight. And that was it. Then later on, several years later, when i was in another place not teaching anymore, but working at a publishing house, i began to work it out and then i send it around to writing 12 or 14 publishers before somebody was interested enough to take it. Host who said yes . Guest Holt Reinhardt and winston. Host do you remember the phone call . Guest there were so many phone calls i wish i could take this book but i dont think they will. I will try. Thats what i remember. And then suddenly im sitting at my desk and random house, the socalled and they said yes. Host from the point of view of your artistry, there is one way to read this book and your most recent novel, paradise. What would you find different about your style, about your approach towards literature . Guest i think for me the striking thing is the person that wrote the bluest eye, that equality exists in paradise also. Thats very important to me and its odd to have a style immediately, not to have to develop one. I have to learn how to write better, how to seduce the reader faster, how to challenge the reader, how to open up the world, how to manipulate. Thats what i am pleased about coming and i didnt know until i wrote this second book, is that i really truly do have a recognizable style. If i took one page out of it in those books and read it, i think that i would know it was me. Host can you give a quick synopsis of beloved . Guest its based on the historical figure of a black woman who killed her children or tried to when she was a fugitive and didnt want to return to slavery. Beloved is about her life as aamatch and buyan imagined by my altered by the return of what she believed to be the daughter she killed. Host you pick it up where the fugitive slave act is about a group of people picked up. Guest the sheriff turned and said to the other few you better go on. It looks like your business is over. Mine started now. School teacher leaving the bloodshed. They didnt look at the woman with the flower in her hand. They didnt look at faces that had edged closer in spite of the rifle warnings. Enough for now. [inaudible] little eyes crinkling up to cry in the arms of the old whose old eyes were nothing but looking down at his feet. But the worst ones were those of the woman who lived like she didnt have any since then they disappeared. She looked blind. They unhitched the schoolteachers force. Then, with th the some straightp over their heads, they charge off. It is the little socalled freedom imposed a people who need it every care and indulgence in the world to keep it from the life they preferred. The efforts to think the way they committed. The naturalness of the content, the effortlessness of their belief in their superiority. Coming at the moment after the reader has been in the lives of those categorized. Because these characters are so familiar, this i was hoping comes with hl not just because of the event of this water but the way in which at this point [inaudible] host how do you get inside of the psyche of the people . Guest its difficult. But what i have learned is we are the actors and actresses used when you have a main character whether you want to be in that persons head, where the shoes, behave the way that person wanted so you have to enter or project and know where they park their hair and what kind of soap and what kind of food they like. Whether or not it appears in the book you try to imagine all those things. And that works for me. Host can you tell me the story of when and how you found the story . Guest i was just getting out of the shower i think. The phone rang. A friend of mine was on the phone. A woman who was very instrumental in bringing me to princeton, ms. Simmons is her name. She said you won, and i said i wanted was . She said the nobel prize for literature. And i thought instantly that she couldnt know anything that i didnt know about on something important like that. Who told you about and she said she just heard on television, so thathen i knew it wasnt true because [laughter] that would be the day. I really just dismissed it. It was so remote and never crossed my mind. Her telling me that seemed odd. I had seen the media rush over to all sorts of people, the cameras and journalists ready to record their words upon having received not only tha that surpd that others only to be told that that person did not win. So i was not impressed with what she had to say. The phone started ringing. I got dressed and went to work. I went to my class it was full of reporters and telephone calls and cable lines. I thought well i guess its true, but its out there. Wasnt really in my head. But also i hadnt heard from the swedish academy. They didnt say that i had one. So i asked them when they finally called about 12 or 1 00 that afternoon, i asked him to send me the facts. Host i want to see it in writing. Were your parents alive . Guest my mother was. Host that had to be excitable to share with your mother. Guest which was wonderful. I was so glad she was still alive. She didnt understand the level of the prize. She knew it was important, so she enjoyed it. Host did she go with you . Guest she was too sick for that. Host i have a copy of your speech. How did you use that opportunity . Guest to deliver the acceptance speech and a kind of lecture for the literary winners to do their scientific papers. I thought i would try very hard to give a speech that did an act with the subject was, which was the value of the narrative, that it is a major form in which we acquire knowledge and we set it up as a narrative. There are other forms of symbolical, but now it is a major way in which we absorb knowledge and remain intellige intelligent. In the stories we tell, the invention of them is a learning process and an intellectual process. I wanted to say how valuable literature wise, but i didnt want to just say that. I wanted to theatrical lies at. So, i made up a story once upon a time and i used an old story that every culture has about the blind woman or man who is presented and asked. The old person says i dont know, the young Person Holding that its in your hands. I wanted to use the situation of the encounter between the old, the wise, the blind, and the young and give the young agency to really talk back to the old person and say are you picking us, and have the two of the debate and argue and come to the third place. Host what was it like standing there in front of the academy and all the people in that room accepting the prize . Guest i was the only woman. I told them you need to give more time because you have to write a speech that is worthy, you have to find something to wear. The man just rent a tux and they are ready. It took forever. [laughter] i felt very representational. I felt very american. I felt like a writer. I took all of these responsibilities of representation on, and i felt like the first black woman writer, and it was really serious but at the same time it was kind of protection, so i wouldnt have to shoulder it a all. I can sort of redistribute myself out there a little bit. For me, living in the moment happens after the moment. Its only upon reflection much later that i knew what i felt and why i felt so happy, unabashedly thrilled, joyous delight. There was no false modesty. I didnt sort of say it was the most Glorious Party with the most generous people in the world. So, it was as good as it gets. In place of the regular programs, we are showing some highlights of previous authors whove appeared on in depth. We conclude with the late novelist and historian shelby foote who invited us to his home in memphis tennessee in september of 2001. Host our guest for three hours today on in depth is novelist and historian shelby foote. Cspan when did you move into this house and how much of your writing was done from here . Guest all three volumes were written in this overlooking the river for the first volume. That was then the eastern city. I wrote the second volume [inaudible] cspan how many years did you live their . Guest in this house since a 66. Cspan wha with room are we standing, and how much of the house plays into how much you write . Guest very much so. Ive never been able to write away from home. My desk is where i do my work and i dont write when im traveling. I have a great admiration for writers who can write at anytime, anywhere. Any time, anywhere. But i can never do that. If i take off two days it would take me four days to get back to work. And i have to be at my own desk. Cspan where are we in your house . Guest this is the sitting room adjoining my work room. Cspan most of us got to know you in 1990 when ken burns did his civil war epic of 11 episodes. Where were the interviews on . Guest they were done here on the couch sitting right here in this room. Cspan what impact did that whole series of outdoor life . Guest it tremendous impact. I had not realized the enormous power of television until that time, not only to sell books, but people will call you up, call you by your first name and say it was nice to have you in their house last week. Its a strange and somewhat startling. Cspan we are going to chat for three hours, and then we will get two calls and emails. For someone that might be just coming to the program that may not have seen you before, how much of your life have you written . Guest you mean how long have i been writing . Cspan how many words, how many books . Guest the civil war is 1. 5 million the rest of my writing is about the same amount of something over 2 million. Cspan how many books total . Guest six novels and three volumes on the civil war and then recently some things ive been doing for the Modern Library like a long essay on stephen crane. Cspan we opened by saying they were from greenville mississippi. How long did you live there . Guest until i moved here. I was always there for the first 40 years of my life. Cspan what impact i does the city have a new . Guest a great impact. One thing that happened i know everybody thinks they either had the worst possible childhood or the best possible. I was raised in a town in the mississippi delta, and it was a population then of about 15,000, which meant that the average child in a town between the ages of say 13 to 17 was enough school. So you left the rest of your lives i got to know every type of person and in the town thaa townthat size one of your t friends could be the president of the bank and the other could be almost anything. You get to know all kinds of people and know them well. Cspan you can get on the bridge and go to arkansas. How far is mississippi . Guest is a cit the city is t 14 miles south of here. Memphis is the capital of the mississippi delta. Cspan i found something on the web that i want to share with you. This is from im not going to give the name, because it might be embarrassing but it was a student i believe from austin university. Have you heard about this . She wrote an introduction in a biography about you. The last line of the openings has foote is a tremendous writer that served in the civil war, and his writings come from his personal experiences. [laughter] guest that i guest that is the impression that i wanted. Thats the way i think history should be written as if you were living in a time. Looking at passing judgment on it as people did without knowing what the writings were and what the laws were. Its what causes enough of a misunderstanding trying to apply a different set of standards to a different nation really. Cspan all right, you have how many books do you think . Guest is books this way and that way. I would be guessing if i sit around a thousand bucks perhaps. Cspan was on the shelf that is one of your favorite . Guest i have a particular reason for having a favorite. They are all my favorites. But upon the next to the top shelf there is a leather bound new york edition of henry james. It belongs to walker percy. On the ride over there on the third shelf from the top is one of shakespeare and that is my favorite possession. Adult 20 years ago we had agreed whichever of us died first would leave, walker would leave me to james or i would leave him shakespeare. He lost the contest. So that is walker james. He was on his deathbed and told his wife to make sure i got it. Cspan how many years ago did he die . Guest he died in 1990. Cspan shakespeare over there, did you read all of that . Guest several times. You cant read too much shakespeare. The beauty of the language and the skill with which he handles it. The language itself, shakespeare. When you get to talking about art and writing, [inaudible] then you talk about various others. Cspan we are going to go to the next room here. What is this one . Guest that is where i do my work. Thats my work room, always has been. I had the desk and bookshelves built in. Cspan since 1967 . Guest 66. Cspan its going here and see what we can find. Now, when you were writing, did you sleep in this room . Guest sometimes when i was very anxious to get up in a hurry and working hard i would sleep in here. Cspan before we talk about anything, right here is your life behind you. Guest its very strange to see it played out at this. Ive never seen it like that before. Its very strange to see it altogether. Cspan what is the merchant of bristol . Guest the first thing that i ever published. A friend of mine had a newspaper and he did that for me. Some people put it together and its assigned and numbered. There were 260 copies and i charged a dollar 50 a piece for them. The whole town was furious i would put a price on such a junky little thing. Cspan now, tournament was your first novel. When did you start it and when did you finish it . Guest the first two years at chapel hill i decided that i had had enough and it was time for me to come home because i knew the war was coming. This was like 38 or 39. I came home and while i was enjoying the Mississippi National guard and waiting to be mobilized a wrote this and sent it over to bill percys publisher and they read it and go to the men said they liked it very much, but they didnt think that it would so and i would do best to write my next novel and they would be ready to see that because they thought that it would give a bad name. So i put it away in the drawer. I came back four or five years later and was published by the press. Host and the main method of the book . Guest he serves as a law log man of the book. Hes not interested in answering these questions, he was interested in [inaudible] i feel the same. Cspan how long do you think that you have . Guest its hard to say. Cspan you mean hes a man of the law. Guest i think that each of us is alone. Being alone is something. To be a loa alone is a good thi. But breaking out of it is something else. We are a loan in strange times. You are most alone as a thing that can go on forever. Its a strange business when you start examining how each man is alone. Cspan a few months ago you had a battle with cancer. Colon cancer. What was that like . Guest you take medical things as they come and leave it up to the doctors to do something about it and do what the doctor says. I have had all kinds of medical things since ive turned 65. Each one came along and we take it as that is how and thank god they had good doctor have good i wouldnt be here if they havent developed medicine like they had in the last 20 years. Cspan you are going to be 85 in november. What does it feel like to be that age compared to when you started the first novel . Guest i cant associate myself with anybody. Cspan cspan to use the rightclicks guest of course. I wont stop when im down but nearly all of my friends are dead. My closest friend walker percy has been dead for 1 11 years its hard to believe, but thats the way it goes. You take it as it comes and you hope host you are married to client who is here today. Guest 45 years in september. Cspan cspan what has that been like . Guest i cant imagine being married to anybody for 45 years. Its amazing. Cspan the on cspan the one thing i want you to talk about because weve talked about it before is whats over here on the shelf, talking about the time. I remembered some things past. Guest this is my favorite 20th century writing. My mother gave me this full volume for my 17th birthday and every time i feel that ive earned the right to do it, i quit everything and reread it. Ive done it when i wrote the ninth reading. Cspan so you read this book and its what, 3,000 pages . Guest yes. Cspan nine times. Guest yes. Guest it is pure enjoyment. The fact that it can teach you something. And talking about shakespeare. Cspan what is it about the written word that either attract you to people or separate you from television . Guest the written word is what defines us as superior creatures. Man is characterized by a number of things and knowing that he also has an obligation to make the time of whatever he has and its by reading and learning about the world. Learning about the past and presenthepresent and in the bucy look to the future by reading. Cspan if you just joined, shelby foote will be with us for another two hours and then about 15 minutes we will go to the phones to give you a chance to ask any questions you might what to ask him about anything, including all the writing that hes done. What goals are your favorite things in this room . Guest that is a large question because cspan we are going to talk about all of that when we get over here to your seat. Weve got the music over here. Guest there is the games and comrade. Cspan and youve read it all . Guest yes, and over and over again. Guest i appreciate more about reading and rereading, i am a writer and as my craft and when you read a book especially about a good writer, you enjoy seeing it to prepare for what is coming and the skill with which he does that is enormously instructive. Cspan what is the circumstance . Guest its a funny thing i talked to peopltalk to people ag and i do not see the scene when i read. I read words and punctuation. A lot of people they tell me when they read its like looking at a movie, they see the characters and people might do to some extent but mostly im looking at the way we move the words around. Cspan i remember reading somewhere at the university of North Carolina chapel hill you got lost in the nine stories. Guest i was very much happy to be there. I came in as a graduate student and there were other books i had never seen before. To me i spent more time in the library than i did anywhere. Not only was there all of shakespeare but all the books about shakespeare. Cspan what kind of music do you add from over here . Guest to crime, Classical Music in every sense and also a big fan of the blues, Robert Johnson especially integrate many others. Cspan we talked many times years ago when you listen to music you dont read. Guest no. I can listen to music while im going to sleep, but a distraction i cant put up with him to do botand do both of thot once. Cspan so when you read you dont listen to music. Before we sit down, a couple of things. But lets go quickly through the process here. Follow me down is in luck here . Guest 1950, this came out in 49 and that one and 50, 51, 52, 54 and athlo that 175. Cspan guest one of the characters is from my home place. Cspan we have the three volume set of the civil war, all nonfiction. You said you had 350 books to write. I had about 300 i worked with. I didnt want to go to libraries or original materials. I wrote from the printed word but it is so wisely written about that you dont need to go back to the original. Theyve all been gone over. These are just a few of the over 200 offers that have appeared. You can watch any of the programs featured over the past few hours in their entirety on the website, booktv. Org. Just click on the tab and search for the author that you would like to see. In this portion of the program, she discusses the changes she sees happening within the political parties. In 201 2016 in the republican primaries, there was a civil war and the republica republican pae Establishment Republicans represented by jeff bush and others didnt get the nomination, didnt get the support of the american people. It was the revolutionary donald trump. The democrats are going through the same thing right now, but they are having a civil war but is it going to be the traditional democrats, is it going to be some alps fighter, is it going to be a socialist, but that is indicative of the fact washington just doesnt work. It really hasnt kept up with the country and i guess at the end of the book with i realized after a long period of thoughtfulness and i went into the wilderness to try to figure it out is that america goes to through these devices. Every 40 years because we are very dynamic demographically, geographically, socially, economically we are constantly reinventing ourselves not just as individuals, but as a nation and the government is out of stock. Its a status quo institution this is the way weve done things and we are going to do things the same way again. And its people who then gets stuck. So america is about to have these revolutions, political revolutions. He had one of the very beginning in the American Revolution but ever since then weve mostly had the revolutions that play out in that is what we are in the middle of now. Senator rand paul your the most interesting people and politics and the Republican Party i was a family before i got to meet yo