Hello my name is the director of the wisconsin festival thank you for being here. I believe this is the seventh event and also the 30th of 32 events just today in the third day of this book festival. Thank you so much. I have seen many of you all day. [applause]. I could not be more pleased to be introducing megan phelpsroper. With her book unfollow. Were talking about her life and doubt and how you decide to leave or stay in how you defend yourself in this context is one of those conversations with religion that you need to be having so much more as a culture. I think it opens up so many doors for people and making herself a writer and activist. She left the Westboro Baptist church in november of 2012. And she knows about communication across ideological lines. At the age of five, eggen began protesting homosexuality alongside fellow members of the Baptist Church in topeka, kansas in this church was founded by her grandfather and consisted almost entirely of her extended family. The tiny group gained notoriety. As the churches spokesman, megan was one of the few that interaction with the outside world and twitter did something maybe we can longer for, custer to begin doubting the Strict Church leaders in the message. Sinful ands fallible. How could the church itself be so competent. That was the question she was left with after many instructions. She started to wonder at some time she began exchanging messages with a man who helped change her life. I am here to welcome her, megan phelpsroper. [applause]. Megan good evening everyone and thank you so much for being here tonight. My name is megan phelpsroper and i grew up in a very tightknit family in topeka, kansas value of the third of 11 children. Three girls in a voice. I wouldve done treelined street with dozens of relatives and the surrounding houses. Just across the backyard, was the church we attended every sunday my grandfather had been the only pastor since its inception in the 1950s. My moms family was vocally checked talented and hymns rang out during the Weekly Services often gave me chills. The pastor praises to god, for his mercy and his grace echoing off of the ceilings and into my welcoming years. I grow proud of my family. My grandfather had been a wellknown activist. A lawyer, in the 1960s into the 1980s and had won awards from civil rights groups. My family had suffered for that work. Such as the content vandalism but the physical attacks on the grandfathers Commentary School aged children. But then never swayed them from the commitment to racial justice. But when i was five years old and a new era of my familys legacy began. I will review a little bit about that now. I do not understand what was going on. But at first. The signs it simply appeared monday and have left. Like some undeniable force of nature. I guessed, my mothers family had been a wellknown and polarizing presence in the city for decades. But in my memory, the picketing was beginning it started at the age of five. It sure did look like a park to me, there were no swings or slides or double gems. Just an open field the separated the park from the city intersection of tenth street and gage boulevard. As pastor of the tiny church, my grandfather would drive the big red pickup filled with signed team had made the rest of the church consisting almost entirely of my aunts and uncles and cousins, parents from parents and siblings. They were to follow in a caravan of vehicles. It could not read the messages that they had carefully written. I was still fume and chive kindergarten but when i saw photos as a teenager, i was surprised how many were small and constrained. Watch your kids, gage park my grandfather had learned, was popular Meeting Place for gay men. In hindsight, we were bound to innocent a negative reaction. Especially because her message went far beyond the call of the cleanup of gage park. His oldschool baptist he said. He was determined to represent the scriptural position on homosexuality. He looked immediately into the attacks on the k community and the cycle blaming them for the aids epidemic that they deserve the Death Penalty. And published many letters including one signed by one of my hands comparing United States to sodom and gomorrah. Cities destroyed by god because of the sin regarding homosexuality. She declared aids to be a disease for which the homosexual the, holding holy and insisted that the blood of aids victims should be mentioned on those guilty of introducing an brieflys spreading the disease, the homosexual. Even during the era with disapproval of the lgbt people were more common, it took only four start sentences for my intimate claims enough to outrage most readers. I find managed to do with the economy. Militant gate spread aids. Gays are worthy of death printed and soon enough, what would become our most infamous message, the Community Sponsor protest was mystifying news for years. Thanks to negrete born in religious education i was receiving income, i was five years old when the tribune begin a did not understand why anybody would reject our message. And why are protest would draw and counter protesters. I was scared of them at first. Young punks, and diseased, probably got eight scripts would say. The bible for bed they would cut her hair but some of the women came out with colored bright red and blue and purple. Cooling here. And it was metal on their faces. Their boys with bullets and others with their heads shaved and then have, by long black hair that hung increases transit to cost the public faces. Some look liquidated, tall and skinny. Some more fat and bearded pretty combat boots on the feet and flannel shirts id rather waste printed they come out in angry mobs. Fifty, 100, more or less and try to surrender group of about 30 of us starting fistfights. Sometimes they were cops and sometimes of her handcuffs and sometimes we were in them. It was not fair because we were just trying to protect ourselves from those ruffians. I held my breath whenever i walk by them so that i wouldnt catch with everett was that was making them such awful people. They would urge drivers to honk and yell which they did. They threw eggs and beer and pepsi bottles filled with urine printed drivers and passengers would sometimes abandon the vehicles in the middle of the street in carters hanging wide open and cross lanes of traffic come across on foot. My cousins and i would hide me and mom aunt sprinted from behind my side, i watched them approach to hits and threaten and shove and bellow and spent in grant for our signs. Antibodies are here. The police rarely seem to help of my parents kept up. Still i was alarmed and angry. How dare they are aged. What made them think that they could do this to us. While the cops stopping them. But my grandfather a different perspective on the opposition. It was proof, that god was with us. From the age of five, into my early 20s, it did in my churches protest across the country, almost daily. They quickly expanded beyond the date or Gate Community to include everyone who was not part of the church. Westboro Baptist Church shows itself as the only true church on the landscaping were so confident in our understanding that we consider it not only a right but our duty to judge others. We protested funerals, insisting that the deceased were on him celebrating the bethel mourners passed by a short distance away. This i was told, was what god admits when he instructed us to love our neighbors. To warn our fellowmen of their sins would lead them to gods courses and internal torment in the world come. It is our preaching is the very embodiment of compassion. Our message was the only hope for doomed world. In 2009, i turned to twitter to to reach more people. But those people had reached me instead. And hostility on twitter, group of individuals began to ask questions. To really for the nuances of the belief created over time, they found internal inconsistencies in our theology. And they gently respectfully challenge me. I was absolutely baffled when i recognize that first contradiction. How could this be. Our message was a divine, unquestionable word of god. The fact that we could be wrong, we did not in fact have a monopoly on truth is the beginning of the end of my wholeheartedly in Westboro Baptist church doctrine. In 2012 i knew i would be cut off from the only family and community i never belong to because i decided i would leave. I would lose my lifelong home on the treelined street along with everyone and everyone had been part in my life and that i would be left in the world that has been my entire life demonizing antagonizing. Rhino just going to rain for a few minutes mother. Right before i left Westboro Baptist church. I just made the decision only nine discussed it with my other sister price who also felt the need to lead leave. At this point we are trying to figure out, what to do next. Making the decision to leave introduce yet another impossible question. When. Neither grace nor i had an answer just a growing list of reasons but he couldnt me know. We can only be for Moms Birthday shortly. And what about her parents anniversary. How cruel it would be to ruin everything i did this moment. Then there were the things we can virtually without all that we would forever lose, although we are forever had. What about family recipes, these and old photos. We should just wait a little while longer. There is no nine based on dwindling hope that a drastic change would occur and save us from our plans. At the first prospect of losing everyone, grace and i have become painfully aware that there were so much we did not know about her parents lives in anothers. What did we know about his life before westborough treated my sisters and i began interviewing her almost immediately after small countries into price. We went across the backyard in the evening passed the outside in the pool and entered the church. We find graham upstairs in the bedroom next to the Church Library where he hello bible study 73020. Eightysix, grandmother was so quiet and gentle. Smaller than id ever seen her because of the deep curve in her spine. Due to the page. She would lie in a bed and grace like next to her, back in the floor at the foot of the bed and made the head and i would switch on my own funds recorded we take turns asking questions and try not to choke at the thought of losing my graham. And guilt was watching over me for even thinking about betraying her. I started recording everything. The sounds of our monthly birthday parties, even bible study. My mothers stories about my siblings and me when we were young. A party said for me. Reading aloud, and my little brothers. Even if i somehow got them back one year, even if the eventually arrest all of the years of the little boy life would be gone. An endless stream of photos, family kids ballgame, mom and the getting ready to walk to school the morning. My parents Holding Hands as they walk through department store. Family visit to her Favorite Museum in kansas city. Milkshake parties graham pretty box of the park with my nieces and nephews. The front porch were grace and i ate breakfast each morning predictor about fresno both. In those months, every joyful express became a torture leftcurlybracket me in tears. And gasping for breath. We huddled together in my bed like that try to remember what it was like before all of this. But it was like to be happy without the inescapables full sense of that we were watching the slow excruciating death of everyone we loved. I began obsessively taking notes to chronicle every moment i filled notebooks with descriptions of routine interactions. Terrified of losing even a single one. As if leaning to these memories might alleviate the agony as if recording it all could keep them come something or something from her grasp. I made a list entitled nice things said during a hug. Grandma has you can always count on me to smell good. Graham, on how my curls in my face make it difficult to breathe. Mom on how she didnt mind being smothered by them. Dead on how he loved it when i finish his sentences. I love you mimi he said. It was named luke had given me as a toddler we can produce mind corruptly. Were very fortunate to have you as a daughter. I run down before he could regret it. Before he could take it back. Before getting ten photos me the home of the wall before he could repurpose my bedroom and before he gets for the rest of his life, erasing me from his memory as much as possible. A little at a time, grace and i began packing her things in boxes. My sister the labels listen things like shoes, or books. I remembered my boxes, meticulously cataloguing every single item that went into each one. Each piece of jewelry i owned, i labeled them. If i ever forgot any detail, there would be no one around to remind me. I copied 63 dvds with home movies and watching scene after scene play like funeral real. And all the while, i knew what would happen when we left. And in the heartbreak they would feel in the material. I had felt it when my brother josh left eight years earlier. Devastating postmortem that went on for weeks after he left. We had racked our brains looking for every sign of his and with each new thing that we found we had transformer or into outrage. All of us who remained were disgusted with his leaving. How could he, how could he pretend to be one of us knowing all of the while was going to abandon us forever. He did not occur to us to think of his devastation. It could not see his terror for his despair or his desperation. It was much easier to rewrite history and kept him as a villain. It was a selfish jerk who only wanted to pursue his own lust. We cannot imagine this 19 oh boy have a legitimate reason to leave. We could not consider that there was anything truly wrong with us. My parents, my brothers and my sister, my grams and my grandpa they would all affect just like i had, they would see me having movies and interviewing gramps, cleaning our bedroom, it would search through all of the Text Messages and a male license. They would remember my refusal to tweet they would wonder how i ever couldve put them in the eye. When an understand that i wanted to tell them everything. That i tried so hard to keep from them. The name and begging for change. The wood wanted to stay. Shortly after that, krishna left the church and first i thought i had to run away and hide forever. I thought that after living, that was only way i could survive in the world. But almost immediately, i connected with people who help me to see things differently. People who invited me to work for change. And help dismantle the arguments that has been my life defending. And repair some of the damage that i did what i was part of the church. In the nearly seven years, since i left i spent a lot of time making amends the communities they used to target. I have shown incredible grace by those communities and im so grateful to have had the opportunity to turn what had been a largely destructive life into meaningful healing for so many people. And for people like me, who were race from birth to condemn others. Healing for people and were situations and they were trapped. If healing for people struggling to have meaningful conversations across ideological divides. Most importantly, healing for those who express the hateful message of Westboro Baptist church firsthand. At my book came out last week, i received a message from a gay man, he was a teenager was terrified and struggling with his sexuality and he said that he had consumed my charges content convulsively almost as a form of selfharm. He told me, writing a book and hearing you eloquently dismantle their arguments felt a certain kind of closure. Messages like this remind me that is an extraordinarily painful as its meant to revisit all of this writing, the coral things that i did to others that were most vulnerable and must devastating moments in my life, on this earth. There is real value in owning our mistakes and finding ways to turn them into forces for good. Thank you again for being here tonight and if anybody has questions, i am happy to answer them and if you want to ask a question, i think they want you to use that microphone over there. And thank you if you do. [applause]. Cement thank you for coming and i wonder if you count yourself as a christian. And also, is so clear there was so much love and your family and so many good things. I wonder what you or if in looking at the social struggles, theres so many places that divisions between the conservative churches in the current society, is there any place you feel like your church or more conservative churches and general have something to say to the culture that is useful. Megan the first part of your question, i dont think of myself as a christian anymore. Im not religious although, its really funny to me how much i have any religious ideals are that i learned from religion, i still carry with me. I give a ten talk years ago that was basically detailing when those people and twitter did for me. How they managed to turn this incredible conversation is taking place on twitter, to turn it around into meaningful dialogue across his huge ideological golf. As i am writing, i was playing very close attention than anything i run the toprated wanted to say exactly what i meant and nothing more nothing less. And finally when i finish it after weeks of working on it often on, i close my laptop and i realize that that the threat of my argument was what you just it, love your enemies. So there are a lot of things in the bible that have not been able to find a good explanation for. But theres some of the things that i believe, memorizing bible verses, and i found much better ways of seeing some of those things but theres still too many. Too many for me to ever think be able to patients ever. I just think coming from a place where i felt so certain about everything, i am very wary and skeptical of ever coming to place recently okay, now this is the answer. In the second thing. Im not sure. I guess that i think, dont think when it comes to any church or set of believers, like everybody has potentially wonderful valuable things to contribute to a conversation so dont think we should exclude anybody from that. So dont see why. Well that answer your question. Its a little bit broad for me to be able to sorry. [laughter]. Guest first of all, thank you for your courage to leave in your courage to write this book. So thank you for that. [applause]. I was wondering, do you think your parents might ever read this book did. Megan i do believe they will if they havent already. Westboro Baptist Church, when it comes to x members, pretend that they would nonexistent dont acknowledge. The exception to that is when something gets attention. 710 talk i gave a couple of years ago, they were tweeting about it. There were tweets saying things on what i was antichrist. I do believe they will read it and definitely, i wrote the book for so many reasons one of them is that i kind of seen it as a bread crumbs from the people for my family and in the church. Maybe by detailing exactly why i stopped believing the things that they believed you. How it came to see the destructiveness in this. And hopefully, not written in a way that even they in their current position, they can be a bridge from the where they are to where i am now. And even if it doesnt cause them, okay i need to leave. But i do hope it causes them to reconsider some things. And hopefully, right at the end of the book about the church has moderated its church in important ways but i think it is still obviously has a long ways go and hope this helps and their progress. I can just repeat the question two. Guest [inaudible]. Megan i have two brothers who are out of the church. I have another brother who left year and a half after i did. Im close with my brothers, not with my sister anymore. I think it is just a complicated. People react differently to leaving. I think when i was in the church you basically think of x members, there like on the same page. People have different experiences. And within different families and there is a lot of support, not nearly the club i guess that the church envisions. Guest you talked about in the responses are thinking that you did, with the people with you interacted with you on the printer and the importance of reason. He also talked about the strong sense of community and told that you had to enter the church. As you up with other people, it sounds like you work with people on leaving. Can you talk a little bit about the interplay of reason and community her feelings that you would try to help them with. Speedo im really glad to brought the Community Aspect of this. I come from a family of lawyers. So they are very intelligent and analytical and seemed like a very closed system. Because as long as you accept the basic premises which is that the bible is the literal bowl infallible parts of god. Everything else seems to follow for the most part. Its very important for me to experience on twitter, to actually have conversatio conveh people about those inconsistencies. I dont think i couldve left without that. But i do think the emotional and Community Aspect of it is important. Talking to an anthropologist last year and she defined shame is the feeling that we get when we have we know we have violated the norms of our community. Over a long time, i grown up, Mother Teresa and Princess Diana died francis, the church celebrated. Anytime a person who was they deemed as sinful, but passed away they would celebrate. And catholics are idolaters. Thats all it took. I knew nothing about them except those two facts enough is enough to have them condemned to forever. This is how i was trained. I was just modeling the behaviors of those running. In 911, my literal reaction when i heard what happened was to say out loud awesome. I never felt ashamed of that. I got on twitter in 2009 is talking to me looking back how quickly when this people who i started interacting with, the majority of them were extremely hostile. But the fact that there was this group of people that i was starting to come to know of time, a lot of things about twitter the many unique in my experience. So the fact it was very limited to, hundred 40 characters, and we feel safe. My interactions outside were always keep them at arms length but because it was so limited, i was never aware of the feeling being in danger. Stopped me from using insoles by casual insult that my family would throw around all of the time. There was not space for it on twitter. And also when i did include this kind of insults, the conversation is completely dissolved into this method of you dont know me. And so i stopped using them because they didnt communicate a message. So theres all of these things that were happening on twitter and developing report with over time with people. Ineffective me in a way that i could not have anticipated or rather the just would miss it. And now i am on twitter i am saying, the people that passed away. I felt sad. Seeing how other people responding ensuring memories of her and things like that. And then so, i am sitting in a Birthday Party actually, so it is one of our monthly birthday parties at the church. And i am seeing people surrounded by them in im kind of stunned and the celebration starts and somebody dies. I am feeling bad that i worse and worse. I see Something Like a famine in somalia or someone died or because they felt like i was becoming part of the community, i started to feel ashamed. It could not feel shame until i was part of this other community. So anyway, just wanted to emphasize that while the reason was absolutely important and essential, so was the centerpiece. And this is why i think that our tendency is humans often is to see people in groups like this and think these people are evil. We need to isolate hun. Theyre already isolating themselves because they think youre evil. And if we want them to change, but if we dont want that kind of hatefulness, you dont want them to condemned people are convinced them to join them, so having the language as much as we can for whatever individuals have the time and patience and feel safe enough to engage with people like that. More likely we are to change hearts and minds. I just want to point out, some people look at my experiences a this is singular unique somehow. Maybe its in particular, like the fact that Westboro Baptist church, specific things that they do, are far outside of the norm. I dont think my reaction was anything other than completely human. And there are many other examples for example, former White Nationalist and david duke was his godfather, he left the movement. And daryl davis, the black jazz musician who commits over 200 members of the kkk to invent the movements. Theres a lot of people, a lot of examples of this. The strategies being powerful and Community Aspect of these. And we have this person whom you have demonized in your mind, show that you are not who you thought they were. Thats extremely powerful and causing that hopefully in a lot of cases, like actually does cause people to change their views. So it was answer. Guest hi, so you say you kept people at the far distance when youre on twitter. When you first got in to twitter new responding to all of these different things, you do have guidelines for drug free will with you are allowed to do. Was or someone over your shoulder doing this. When you were discussing what was being said. What was that interaction within your family and the guidelines they had. And given us free will. Speedo i was 23 at the time, some 2009, island home. My desk was 5 feet away from others. Got on twitter after i had read an article on cnn. I always a first, would run my post by my mother before i posted them initially and then as time went on i became more, so twitter is a way of communicating with people that didnt require the stories of the journalists. I try to explain our position then i read the article and i think that is not what i said is not what her position is and i would get varying frustrated. I love the aspect that i could reach out to people directly. I would be cooking dinner, and my iphone in hand. I would have two sides in one hand on the picket line my phone on the other. I would be causally answering questions. A family of lawyers had taught me all of these arguments from the time i was funny. And theres always an answer. Have somebody would estimate question i didnt know how to quite answered. I would go to the elders and they would tell me. I felt very safe. We have all of the answers. This is the church of god and unquestionable. The never ever had the feeling of being vested. So when it came to this point in having these conversations, the first one was from a jewish man. He wrote a blog and is asking me questions. This was like a year into these conversations and i started out attacking him. And he responded very negatively at first and he started asking questions. And i started asking questions in response. And my purpose was to better counter his arguments. So in the midst of these getting into these extremely theology talks, he finds this internal inconsistency and literally, i was flabbergasted. I had no idea what to do with this. At this point, i had 20 years of always having an answer. And i go to my mother and start to like approach this question and they, in hindsight, you can see the cognitive distant in their faces. They reiterate the verses that justify their position but theyre not addressing the contradiction. Totally mind blowing thing. Occasionally, i would have people who come up to me and say, she scrolled through tweets and theres like ten in a row on the same person. Shes insinuating that theres something wrong with that. I basically said, is all one response. Exalt predestination so i had to explain and the twitter handle was long. So there is not that many spaces left. For the most part, after a while i was just trusted. I felt safe doing it. I think since i left, after those things are a little more tightened up in that way. Which is understandable. Guest harry about your grandfather and your anti racism work was fascinating can you tell us anymore about him and well just him. Megan i do write a lot about that in the book, it goes a lot about that into the book. He took that as a sign from god that he should go go to law school and defend the rights of the people. And for him, some people look at that work that he didnt compare it later to the work of the dead against lgbt people and their rights. And for him, there is no tension between those two. In that seems to be on the outside and thats because he thought both of those positions as being scripturally right. The importance of equality and under the law in the bible, one law should be to him, should be home born and in the strangers among you because god is made of one blood in all nations on the earth. So there was no, he never said it was a an abomination to be a protected class, but that he would say like homosexuality though is defined by conduct. Not natural conduct. Abominable and ungodly conduct. For him it was just this is what the bible says and therefore. Was on the principle of the thing is much as this what we find in the bible. Therefore this is that standard of god and unquestionable. Guest but that was the reason he went to law school. Megan he actually had gone in before that, he had gone to a school, Bob Jones University in the left because the excluded black people. So we didnt graduate from there. This kind of amazing since he broke the deep south. In a moment say this is that god had shown him this, the mercy of god that he had seen that it was wrong and did not just go along with it. Guest i kinda glanced at your Wikipedia Bio before i came here. And read it very deeply but you went to washburn university, was a before or after you started to do the twitter thing. It was before, how did you sort of avoid all of that students and other people like being in the academic life that sort of influence prior to that lessons online of course. Megan s washburn was before twitter. It is definitely not a place that you would look for or find intellectual freedom. It is because for my house, we protested there every week at least from the time the protesting started. He was one of the earlier targets. We spend as little time there as possible. I talked about the fact that we went to Public School also prefer that. Some people wonder, how could you be exposed. We read secular books, very few restrictions on what we are allowed to consume. Guest i just thought you mustve been homeschooled thats why didnt mention it. Megan press, people would say how did those things not influence you. The best analogy of come up with his before your ever exposed to any of these ungodly ideas or trails, you understand and you are talked in detail like why all of those things are wrong. And it is like being inoculated against his ideas. Can be further exposed to them, you memorize that explain these things. So when you see them, you dont see them something to emulate you see it as just, you shrug it off as like your horror an adulterer or whatever the thing is. Is this something that you are swayed by. In college, evolution him up or something, we obviously didnt believe in them but we just went to parent the answers that they wanted. Were just telling you what you want to hear. Thats fine but we dont have to believe it. So thats kind of how that went. Guest heard you speak on the radio yesterday. You got on the subject of how this country is very polarized politically. And think will comprehend or have friends or relatives who on another or the other side of the golf and we cannot communicate pretty lead to a number four or five steps where it is possible to get over the gulf. Megan so that is the ted talk that i mentioned. I think the steps have a lot of power in bridging divine. Im literally just stilling the best ideas from most people on twitter. Madison bad intent because when talking to somebody, you assume theres people are stupid or delusional, you stop actually listening to them. Youre not hearing from where theyre coming from if you actually dont know what they believe, it will be difficult for you to reach them. It is like you are giving them permission, that is how i experience with people on twitter. And so, the third point is to stay calm, which is really difficult when youre talking about these really intense ideas that people feel very strongly about. I can feel like an attack when someone questions a deeply held a value you have. It can be very difficult. This is the one of the ways i think online communication or written communication can be very powerful. You have a moment, you can step back and not right in the physical space was somebody rethink you have to respond immediately. You can stop and consider exactly what words are going to choose to communicate your ideas. You can decide not to respond instinctively which can be really difficult. And the fourth step i mentioned in my pep talk was to make your argument, which may seem obvious but its one of those things that can also be difficult to do. If you believe something very strongly and you think the logic behind it, the reason behind it should be obvious to any wellintentioned person. Any decent person would have already come to the same conclusion you have. Sometimes we forget to actually argue for the idea itself and to defend it to articulate those defenses. Those of the four i mentioned in the talk. And the fifth one that i would have included if i had time i used all the way down to the very last of the 15 minutes they give me. The fifth point would have been be patient. People dont change in an instant. It takes time to process especially when it is a deeply held belief. People generally do not hear for instance when i heard that first contradiction, the words i said in that moment were Something Like you want me to it say that activity, that god calls abominable is okay . I wont do it. I was not addressing the contradiction, i hope did not even acknowledged to him i saw the contradiction. This was something that just got inside of me. And it is only in hindsight that i see how immediately following that conversation, things started to change for me. I started being willing to challenge things i was being taught by the elders in the church in a way i never had before. All because of that little bit of doubt. It takes time for that to unravel. And thats fifth point, be patient. Ive to complete unrelated questions. I was rained on gent raised Roman Catholic and lost faith because of the contradiction. If you are willing to share the more specific about what the contradiction is . If youre talking a little bit more specifics. Second question, what was your first night like when you left . What did that feel like customer did you sleep . The first point, yes the contradiction the one i keep representing us he was asking us about one of our picket signs and called for the Death Penalty for gay people. I said that is the punishment called for and if that punishment is good enough for god, its good enough for us. Instituting the Death Penalty, making homosexuality a a crime shows the only way they could be truly repented of this previous sin. He quoted jesus he said didnt js us say that he who is without sin cast the first stone . Our response to that is we are not casting stones, we are preaching words. Were standing on a public sidewalk and preaching he points out the obvious you are calling for the government to cast down so what verses that mean if not addressing that. That kind of set me back on my heels for a minute. He went on and set also what about your mom . I said was about my mom . He said didnt shave a child out of wedlock . Isnt that another sin that we deserve the Death Penalty . I had never our response for that anytime anybody brought up that was of the standard of god is not sinlessness, its repentance. So she is okay and does not deserve the punishment because she repented, she does not do that anymore and acknowledges it was wrong. Of course david had pointed out that if she had been killed my family would not of existed purge she would not have been the opportunity to repent. The realization of oh my god, the arguments we had in response to the two points he made seemed to sound right. But the inherent contradictions there the whole time but i missed it. How could i miss it . Does not compute. That was one of them. The other when i saw that really blew my mind as i mentioned they were protesting as the embodiment of compassion. When it means to love thy neighbor. If you are offering them the only hope to change, to turn around, it was for certain destruction reclaim to love our neighbor but on the other side there came a point in our ministry we were praying for people to die for god to curse people. That came for instance, david who god called a man after mine own heart. Prayed for enemies to be fatherless and wives to be widows. He was clearly calling for the death and curses of god. We saw this as an example for us. Not realizing its a direct contradiction and the new testament where jesus says love your enemies, bless them that curse you, and then the apostle paul who says bless them who persecute you, bless and curse not for you are specifically not to curse. When i came to the realization i felt i was literally deranged. How could i so strongly and passionately believe in both of these things at the same time in hindsight, ive read a lot about psychology since i left. [laughter] sawyer brains kurt and trent departmentalized. As the bible is true and impossible to be wrong so therefore, so anyway, it was unreal. Oh yeah, what happened with my left. That first that was really awful my sister and i stayed in the home of my wonderful friends, keith newberry, who is both of our High School English teacher his wife and kids they let us stay in their basement the first night. Also he would hurt me this tell you to follow him on twitter. He stayed up with us for a couple of hours i thought we got to his house he basically leave us to our despair. He stayed up with this for a few hours late into the night. It is important to finally out loud more in our family and the fact of what our whole lives have been, figure out which way was up it was absolutely wonderful. Hi thank you so much for your talk it has been really inspiring into here. My question is what are some things you have done to make amends with the community from your past such as the Lgbt Community and such. Theres financially contributing to different groups, that is important. I spent a lot of time among people in these communities volunteering. I went to montreal for a month, that was the 12 month after i left the church is volunteering at the Jewish Federation there is also a huge target of the church. I also spent a lot of time with Law Enforcement in finding ways to use these experiences look to get on work is like hate crimes, counterterrorism, things like that. Basically any opportunity i have to help people we really want to start a nonprofit at some point but he suggested we call it the westborough foundation. [laughter] and i really love that idea part of the reason i kept my name to, was to change the legacy of that name. I love when they dont want to think about sobering funerals and strategy but people who are there to help people when they suffer it was a wonderful plan on his part smack i have two questions as well somewhat unrelated first one is where to get your strongest sense of family nowadays . The second is just asking advice on us from experience especially engaging with people with whom we strongly disagree life stresses us out we lose the energy for these important topics what would you say to us for a healthy way to engage customers to make would you remind me about the first question. I cant remember if i said this i married one of the people i met from twitter. [laughter] live a 1yearold daughter now who just turned one couple of weeks ago. Actually she just took her first steps right back there. [applause] my husbands family is incredible. He has a brother and sisterinlaw, their three children his parents also live, we live in south dakota his parents lived nearby. It amazes me i met my husband on twitter i just feel like we fit so perfectly together it is wonderful. But also the fact that it love his family so much and it just happens both of his parents worked in mental health. [laughter] this is really wonderful, wonderful gifts. They are incredibly supportive. Having my daughters something that has made me i think about my mom all the time. Its not like i didnt think about her all the time but now its even more intense. Not having her around to talk to about everything and share things with like having my husbands mom be so wonderfully supportive and just a warm and wonderful person. Im super grateful for that. Now i forgot your second question. [laughter] out where do i get the strength to be able to engage in your tired. I would say that even i can do it every time when you encounter someone is not in you to have the argument at that point. Or to be able to reach out for it i reach out to my family. I do it anytime i feel moved to. Its pretty regularly. There are moments i feel like i want to i just cant. Its too painful. Its not like you just leave and things get better. Its a continual thing the rejection is constant. Its active. Sometimes its just too painful being aware is an option there such a sense of hopelessness now, theres no point in even trying. Just even moving away from that in small ways a little bit at a time. Again the four steps i mentioned, those are absolutely skills. There are things that take time to develop, to implement and your own life. It takes time and it takes effort. In whatever way she can, dont assume that the small things are not worth doing. Again, thats not like this people on twitter wasnt that i was talking to all of them every day, was just Little Things along the way, the fact they were multiple i think that helped too. Ultimately it was just a few people, over time, willing to engage. So to be willing to see all these things as an opportunity, dont feel like it is an obligation to do it every single time. You will very quickly get overwhelmed and say i cant do this, im done. When you recharge your family are you neutral or looking for an argument . Speeches sometimes is just its elements are happening in my life. More often it is making some kind of argument. It depends. For a while it was about that specific contradiction about praying for bad things that happen for people. Thats one of the things is change since i left, for initially when i made the argument and brought up the passages in the new testament and said i made one other analogy to say for instance david had multiple wives, we dont take that as an example in white question because it contradicts what jesus and paul said about marriage. So why would we take this example of him praying for somebody else to drive them have other specific commands from the new testament, not to do that. Initially, they just doubled down. And then i think is about eight months after that, my dad gave a sermon about that passage, love your enemy. I dont think i ever heard a sermon about that verse in meyer entire life before then and shortly after that they stopped and every week a flyer would go out on friday that would list all of those who died that week and if thered been 15 of them and say thank god for 15 dead soldiers we pray for 15000 more. That line, the second line for praying for more disappeared from those news releases. I know they can be reached another absently still arguments to be made, even from their own perspective that would help them continue to moderate and a step back away from some of his more extreme ideas. So anytime i see that, anytime i see an opportunity, i have an aunt who tweets. Again they stepped away from praying for bad things to happen to people and they say they dont celebrate the bad things that happen to people. But then i have an aunt who will tweet terrible she will do a retweet with some bad thing that has happened. Her only comment on the tweets as ha. Its like seeing those kinds of things you can see the old spirit still there and reminding them, that is not right. Its not biblical is not scriptural. Like is it any time i see it i still keep an eye on their 20 fees especially. I see what things can i say to help them change for the better . So i wonder if youve heard of the book, escaping the rabbit hole . Its written by a person who made a reasonable. [inaudible] in the Internet Business decided to retire early and spend his time debunking various conspiracy theories and alien abductions. The conclusion of his book, which very much parallels yours is be nice to people ask questions, be patient. Have you ever follow that book was my so i didnt have not but i will get that to my list my to be read list thank you for that now i had not known that. It makes me happy to hear anytime someone takes those positions to not believe it is hopeless, to communicate with people like that. Conspiracy thinking is also again it can be really hard to get through to people with those ideas. Like you said, asking questions and taking the time to reach out to them that can absolutely change things. Thank you for that. I will look into that. Hope i think we are done. Thank you. [applause] [applause] so tonight on the communicators president and ceo of the National Association of broadcasters, gordon smith, on how broadcasters are responding to the coronavirus outbreak he is interviewed by Communications Daily executive editor. What are the precautions and different steps that your members are taking right now . Whether its internally, work from home as you mentioned at the association. Whether its changes theyre making programming and such. So its interesting as the broadcasters are also people who live in their local communities. They are trying to be good citizens. While members in abc or cbs or nbc or fox, they are heeding the warnings coming from the cdc and the white house. About ways we can participate in reducing the spread of the virus. They are pooling resources. There pooling crews that go out and sharing in ways you dont normally expect competitors to be doing. Certainly ways that are lawful and very important right now. So watch the communicators tonight at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan2. You are watching a special edition of book tv airing now during the week will members of congress or in their districts due to the coronavirus outbreak. Tonight we focus on history. First and jet musician tim mcgraw talk about through song. Then land of hopi history of america and then later erica lee has america for americans looks at prejudice throughout american history. Enjoy book tv now and over the weekend on cspan2. Washington journal to prime time a special evening edition of washington journal of the federal response to the coronavirus pandemic our guests are chicago mayor Lori Lightfoot on the citys personal response to the pandemic. And the director of ucla global and immigrant health talks about the spread of the virus and the latest data on what how well it is being controlled. During the conversation tonight at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan. Senate Majority Leader Mitch Mcconnell gave an update on providing more money for small businesses, hospitals and testing. Senator maria cantwell, Transportation Committee Ranking Member also spoke about the situation with the