Transcripts For CSPAN2 After Words Michelle King The Fix 20240713

Welcome, michelle king. Author of the fix. Guest hi. Thank you for having me. Host its a pleasure to have you here. This is such an important book because its not just about the problems that women face in the workplace. Its so focused on solutions, and i love your key insight which is that we tend to give advice to women, a lot of books and con friends for women, telling them what they need to do and how they need to change. We need to lean in, we need negotiate more, and if were too nice well never get the corner office. What you point out is the truth is that women actually dont need fixing. Were not the ones that are broken. What is broken is the workplace, and as we know, workplaces were designed by men, for men, when women try to act like men, it has not work out very well for us. And i love how you put it. You say we need to call a timeout on the women fixing epidemic. And as you point out, of course, michelle, gender equality is not just about women. Your book, the fix, i is not just for women. Its actually about all of us, its for all of us. Its about making our workplaces work better for everyone. So, thank you, welcome. And your back provides a guide. So why dont we dive right in here. Very interested, if you could share with us, what is your own background that brought you to this place to write the fix. Guest ive been researching this for many years, looking at why women arent advancing at the same rate as men and trying to understand that issue, and when i started out many, many years ago it was when the leanin, the leanin book by Sheryl Sandberg was popular and that fortunately rooted in what i called fix the women issue so asking women to do more or be nor fit into established systems of work that dont really value them, and so when i was researching it, i sort of sat firmly in that camp and looking at what women needed to do differently to advance at work and why women werent advancing. Very quickly and reviewing the literature i found that actually women exceptional in terms of leadership capability, networking capable, problem solving, howl they engage as managers, as employees, and a lot of that was new to me. Yao just tate networking as an example. Women are often told to attend networking programs and learn how to network and this is desing that women dont do that well because they dont have the same access as men. And thats a great example of how workplaces are broken, where simply because women dont have the same access they put the onus on women to solve but not numbering why women are excludessed from networks or when hey have accession they dont benefit the same way as men. So i found that women have everything they need to succeed and then some. The issue is more that wak workplaces were design bid and for an ideal type of work cher tends to be sort of a dominant, assertive, aggressive, health re sexual, ail bodied white male and the problem is most women dont feel that ideal what i call the prototype. The dawn draper from madmen and trying to fit that prototype it creates challenges for women when we fix them. The thing that is really interesting is that this prototype doesnt work for men so living up to mens face a 0 lot of challenges and my book really outlines how this prototype creates what i call culture of inequality where everybody is trying to lip up toking this ideal that fit nobody else and we need to be ourselves at work and be valued and need workplaces that designedder no different, quite the opposite of what we have today. Host so, tell me about your own background that led you this interest in the first place. Youre with netflix and previously with the united nations. Explain how you got interested in this topic. Guest i think ive been working in Human Resources for most of my career, and a lot of different countries, a lot oft different contexts and environments and sectors, and what i found consistently was gender inequality across these different environments, and i became increasingly interested in how workplaces werent real ya designed for difference hi and work in diversity and collusion, even in Human Resources, rarely led me to understand this issue and something has a practitioner of been looking at for the last 17 years and the research. So across the various qualification is have ive been trying to understand what it is about workplaces that dont really sort of support everybody to succeed in an equal way. So in researching this, it became apparent to me over the use us through me work and my research that there are solutions out there. There are ways we can fix this and so for me its about trying to shower that with everybody, make it accessible and make everybody understand that when it comes to equality and inclusion and equity, it really is all but jobs and so thats really what if a been trying to share this message through my own work as a researcher and also as a practitioner. Host im glad you brought up to point about how Much Research you have done. What you found that so much of the conventional wisdom about women is just wrong. And you have just referenced a few opinions. There are other areas that the conventional wisdom says that women act in a certain way that is incorrect . Guest yeah. I think across the board, if were asking women to do something that were not asking men to, we need to really think about it. When it comes to the leanin, i think that back was wherein in a time and written in a time and place where people wanted solutions. People leak the idea they alone can overcome inequality that hey that no hand in creating own though that logic is quite flawed. For me the problem is how to you say to people you can do everything just right, get the qualifications, have the experience, get the performance ratings, and still not succeed because success discriminates because workplaces werent designed for difference. Theyre designed to support this ideal to advance, and people that most closely fit that ideal are more likely to advance in organizations so the more you differ from it the more challenges youll face. Thats not something that we talk about. Organizations are inherently set up for this ideal prototype to succeed. And that creates a lot of challenges for anybody who might differ from the dawn drape ideal. The aim is to think awe the women fixing solutions, firstly is it something we are asking men to do . Secondly do any of the Solutions Work . A lotthem dont. Take the idea that women dont a s for pay rises rises and that o by a gone and theres a great study that shows thats notes the case. Women ask for pay rise just as much as men. Theres just 25 less likely to get them and part of the reason is just pure discrimination and also women are penalized when they do and for raises because theyre asserting themselves, defying the Standard Society that you have to be thankful you have a job and when women come in knowing their value and asking for what theyre worth, theyre panellized because they seen to be asserting themselves and stiff displaying masculine at tribeauts and the aim is to try to look at if we that these solutions its unfair to ask women to do things to fit some a Work Environment that maybe will never really value them and number two to look at the solutions and say do that it senator in most cases they dont because theres not addressing the underlying system of inequality, which is really the policies, the processes, the practices, in terms of day to day behaviors and the personal beliefs that leaders and employees have that value people differently and value men more than women and thats what creates inequality in workplaces. Host right. And i know of other research you cite in your book that talks it when women speak more than men in a business setting theyre penalize for it we think less of them. When men speak more in the same setting we think more of them, we reward them for that. And it does seem like theres this doublestandard in a variety of ways you point. To in fact thats in your actually the subtitle of the book. You talk out overcoming the invisible Barriers Holding women back at work. There are other sorts of invisible barriers we should be think can about and recognizing . Guest well, you just touched on one right there which is the conformity, something that women encounter early on in to careers and have to live up to the dawn drape ideal, that standard, that masculine ideal standard in terms not just how they look, the white middle class able bodied male and engage in the behaviors associated with what good looks like, dominant, assert it, aggressive, competitive those behaviors are traditional associated with masculine. So when women engage in to the behaviors they might be seen as competent but not likeable because you to be likeable you have to engage in behaviors associated with femininity. When women are meek, mild, unassuming and maternal, theyre really going to be disliked so when face this tradeoff at work and have to illinois gauge in behaviors that are dawn draper like to be competent but then when they engage in more feminine behaviors, to be likeable, theyre not seen as competent. So its this tradeoff between likability and competence and creates a lot of challenges for women early on in terms of their capability, perception of their capability, their opportunities for promotion and advancement, their access to pay and reward. So we see that really playing out early on, i this Double Bottom line. One of the big challenges the whole reason i wrote the book is that were often in denial about the challenges that it women face at work. Its something i discovered in my own research, that people assume work place is a meritocracy. This belief that everybody is the same because everybody is treated in the same way, and so people dont have different experiences of work, and with that kind of logic, were not only denying difference but were denying inequality, and it makes it really hard to solve. So whale always say to women is the very first barrier you are going encounter when you leave school and enter your workplace is conditioned expectations. We are conditioned to believe that work life with function like school life it and is a meritocracy and that we bill reward ford itselfs and success discriminates and you can do everything right and still not advance because you dont fit the protest otripe and youre prototype and have to juggle things to fit. In so the best thing people can do is arm themselves with awareness how workplaces dont work for everybody never same way and then how you navigate that and most importantly how we change workplaces to effectively accommodate difference and work for everybody. Host because i so interested in how throughout the book, you it brings home how really the male is the default and you talk about the don draper, the white male. The default which means that women or anyone who doesnt conform were necessarily the other, and it really came out you have a passage in the book where you talk about how if things like childcare benefits, parental leave, flex time, if we were actually creating a work force from scratch right now, for all of us, all of those things would be built in to the workplace. But because women are the other, and the workplace didnt start with women in mind, all of those things are now seen at benefits and your point is they shouldnt be benefits. They should be part of the fabric of work. Can you talk but that a little. Guest yes. I want to touch on something you said at the start of that, which is for me i think one thing we dont talk enough about is how you have this default standard and its something i assumed as well so i was in denial but the challenges men face and i assumed that the standard sort of worked for them, and it doesnt. So it actually works for a very small number of people and even then its not without its costs. So living up to don, requires, for example, that men dont share their life outside of work, and dont talk about having to balance fatherhood and working life and that men are silenced by the need conform or live up to the ideal standards so they engage in behaviors that can be exclusionary or they have to tolerate the behaviors even it if it makes them uncomfortable enwhen it comes to motherhood, theres this deperception that this is a woman problem, and so its just framed how we even the term motherhood at work, its how do we make workplaces work for parents, its really, okay, how do we sort of that do we need to apply help women fit into this Work Environment, and the reality is, youre not helping me. The workplace wasnt designed for me in the first place. This is actually fixing something that was originally broken and workplaces need women. We talk about that Women Deserve work places that value them and we need workplaces need us. We have capabilities that effectively they need and if you look at the theres great study by the Federal Reserve bang o stu louse which found over 30 years, the most productive workers are mothers and specifically moore two, and so its no surprise to mother because know what i takes to jig this but people often shocked when queue say that if workplaces wants the most productive worker theyd would design for that nomer its real estate pout slapping on a Flexible Work policy or providing some parental leave which in the United States is a huge issue, those are what i consider the bare basics that women need and order to work in workplaces and so do meant many need the opportunity to look at their children and stay at home and engage in Flexible Work but you can have all those policies in place and studies show theyre still not effective and the reason is is culture. So, all of my work, the whole book talks about culture whiches the lived experience of workplaces. If you think your your daytoday moments. If your boss is saying its really hard to advance mothers s who are reduces schedule oar orr denote you to this lower level role because your on ruleses work schedule. Those are all sort of invisible barrier that prevent women from advance can, the parttime penalty, where employ flees 0 reduce their work hours and work parttime have less access to longterm Career Opportunities and thats women, twothirds of all parttime workers are women. And so the challenge that inequality creates show numbers those daytoday moments. Policy and processes are acquired but if we have leader whose leading and managing the challenges and considering the whole person and your southwests outside of work and how best to destein a Work Environment to meet those need, that would sort of do away with your need to have a lot of of thieves policies to date we dont have that. Dont have leaders who are leading or creating environments that are equitable to both men and women in the whole person and what thered ins are outside of work. Host that is i would have developed you that as someone who has hired hundreds pea in my time, as an editor in chief, but also as a mom of two, i totally believe mothers are so productive and mothers of two, not surprised at all. But lets talk about, though, what the solutions here you talk but culture change but also about leadership. What is the balance to get to the right place in the workplace . Do we need a legislative change . Do is its just all about culture change . Do we need new laws . What is the right balance here to get to the place we nod to get to . I talk about this a lot in the book in terms of equality is really coming down all right. I believe its an invitation to leaders to lead and the reason i say that is because leaders set the standard for what good looks like when it comes to behaviors. Employees live up to that standard by modeling leadership, and so when we think about what good looks like, were looking at leaders and many thereof those leadersed today are in denial but the challenges that women fist and most unrepresented groups in organizations and if leaders dont under the barriers women face and not take steps to remove the barriers and most barriers happened in daytoda moments. Its when a woman gets spoken over in a meeting or theres a sexist comment or some Office Banter that excludes or marginalized employees at work. So those are the moments we need leaders to manage and outside of legislation which i dont cover any become because for me im really looking at workplaces and how leaders can take action today and what it is they can do today and for me, just simply managing the moments is something that every leader can do. So when you see discrimination, when you see marginalized as innings see exclusion, its your doesnt to pull employees aside, talk about it and use it as a learning moment, and really resetting the standards of behaviors and organizations, the challenge is to do that well, we need leader to know what the barriers are so they know that would Pay Attention to and what to look out to and in order to know what the barriers are i recommend reading my book you have to disrupt your own denial and think about, as a leader, how am i in a position of privilege . How die fit don, whether having a whiteness in common with don that makes is easier to advance enough youre a woman, white women in a leadership role you node to consider that and understand the barriers women of color face in organizations but if youre a man, you have your masculinity in common your whiteness or middle class or ableism so you need to become nut how you what you have in common with don makes it that much easier to advance etch nobody is saying, don draper type leaders havent had to work hard. Theyre saying eave everybody else has to work hard too and also have to overcome numerous invisible barriers. I have 17 in my become. Thats what we want leaders to do, start the process of becoming aware, disrupt your denial, understand your privilege and how that makes it that much harder for anybody else to advance, know the barriers and then manage the moments every day. Host so much of what your talking about is unconscious byas, and then some of it is outright buysas, the barrier. Bias, you mentioned 17 barriers. Can you talk but a few that we havent hit on . Sure. Sure. The think on the unconscious bias, im not a fan of unconscious boyas training. Research shows in fact a lot of unconscious bias training is ineffective because youre raising people who are winners and then you are telling them its unconscious and they feel they dont have to do anything about it and theres another great hbr study that talks to this, and research by my university has found that what we need to do is shift people from unconscious bias training to conscious decisionmake and can thats what my become tries to do by outlining the barriers so the really showing how the invisible barrier show us up and what to do to navigate it or remove it or prevent that from happening again. So we have some great examples in the become. Thing is mentioned before like simply not being awomen, women what you do around. That. Arm all whimpering the work force with the awareness. What we find is without that, win the first three years of working life, womens confidence drops by more than 60 in terms of their able to reach the Senior Leadership positions and their perceptions are fit so how much they fit into the organization drops by more than 40 . Thats lot. That takes a toll. And the reason for that is simply not knowing the challenges youre going to encounter can really knock your confidence when you do encounter them because you start to think, is it me or is it my workplace . And you really grapple with the sense that maybe i dont fit in here. Maybe im not cut out for corporate life. Those are challenges we see earlien and also the con officiality bind or challenges with performance tasks, because women intuitive dope fit the don draper profit otype, their behavior and how the look. Women have to work that much harder to be competent or capable so many we have overproof to be seen as just as good as our mall colleagues and that he can correct challenges and as you approach motherhood you sea a whole bunch of challenges with workplaces not designed for mothers and one of the key reasons for that is you you can really differ from don when you become a mother. Its the most furthest away from that prototype you can be and its something that physically we see, and that is why pregnant women really tried to hide their pregnancy at work and good into work when theyre not feeling well. Ive get a great story around a colleague who was given leaninwhen we was four months pregnant and told by her bows she was seen as less capable and necessary confident and needed to prove haves and lean in even further. She was already performing at a irate and did even more work and got signed off, overworking by her doctor saying what damaging her health and so we see this is the whole tax around motherhood, the motherhood tax, and people may be familiar with the motherhood penalty and womens performance is questioned because they dont look like the parole to type and people have a lot of stereotyped to southern with mothers and we see that play out in terms of reduction in wages. So its estimated that mothers after controlling for all the usual factors that affect wages will face a 5 reduction in wages per child and we see that play out and its ironic, panellizing our most productive workforce which is crazy. So, those are challenges mothers experience. Then moving to whale see is this last phase of women residents careers when women are leader. One of the Biggest Challenges we often are unaware of the challenges Women Leaders face. At assumed once you have broken through the glass ceiling, you have overcome all the barriers and thats just simply not the case. Women are hypervisible when theyre leading because every day they have to go into a workplace and defy the standard for what leadership looks like, and so they say face challenges like backlash, unmined or have the capability and Authority Questioned or where people dont support their leadership decisions, and then we also see it play out with things like what i call stereo typical typecasting and label Women Leaders like see them as ice queen or those terms and then it makes it very hard for though lead in a with a that isnt sected with that. Its important to understand that all the different challenges women face throughout their careers and for women i say when your are reading this book its helpful, road map. You sick see yourself in past experience cozy tchen the future and some of the barriers that might be coming up for you and really helps awareness is key because it helps prevent that internalizing process that seems to knock confidence. Host i think its very important that you have broken down invisible barrier. When we talk about gender infee quality, focus on metoo and the worst cases of Sexual Harassment but the fact it that when do get together and have these conversations, amongst ourselves, its in general these smaller, this more invisible barrier. Interruptions, women are interrupted three times more frequently than men are interrupted. Each one of these barriers you talk but, all backed up by research, and these are the things that being talked over, being ignored, being be legislated in a way. Being left out of the conversation, being ignored in that sort of meeting before the meeting when the guys talking about last nights game. All of these lesser theyre these are not that outright sexism that we saw 30, 40 years ago, but you add up all of these invisible barriers and it leads to as you say this lack of opportunity and recognition for women in a workplace that is not working for women. I want to ask you something about quotas because there are a number of people and theres a number of other countries where they have instituted quotas for women on boards. You have fairly strong feelings about that. Why dont you explain. Guest yes. Its funny because people love quota and i always feel the need to apologize because its a rant. I never used to have a strong opinion but quotas just full transparency and then it was in researching the challenges that women experience and also men, mens experiences of inequality i came to realize the damage that quotas do, and the reason im really opposed to. The is because for a lot of organizations, this is the goto solution. So the goodtoo solution is to mandate a certain percentage of women in leadership positions or cut, copy and paste women interest leadership positions, and then hold women accountable for fixing inequality or cultures of inequality they have no hand in creating. And so we see that happen all the time and the reason its really damaging is when you when i interviewed women and million in two different organizations as part of my ph. D research i really found the barriers that were sort of compounded through quotas and we see when women women already have their legitimacy called into question, right . Because they dont fit the prototype so its assumed women are less competent and capable. Women have to work that much hard. When we cut, copy and and paste a woman interest leadership position she is seen as having got that role because the organization now has diversity and inclusion quotas and instantly everybody questions her capability, everybody calls interest question her legitimacy to be in that role. She faces tremendous backlash day to day and not only that, psychologically its very damaging to women because they question themselves. They question whether they truly are ready for that role, and this plays out with men where something i also found is the number one barrier to mens a lad vans independent organizations according to men is the advancement of women because of diversity and collusion initiatives that focus on women. And so for me quotas in many ways are the ultimate fix the woman solution. Theres this idea that were just going advance women into these positions and the whole problem will be solved, and i would be fine with that if it was true, even given the cost because i have women say to me, we just need quotas. Its the only way to fix the environment. Some of our leaders will never get it but the reality is quotas dont work and thats not something we talk about. So you see the lack of sustainability in cut, copy paste solutions when you put a woman interest other leadership role theres something called implicit quotas. Where simply having a woman in leadership role makes you 50 less likely to hire another woman. Also found when women are ceos they 45 more likely to be dismissed regardless of the firms performance ask they are i think around 60 more likely to be replaced by a white male. Employees feel like they can be themselves at work and be valued for that which is culture of equality. Women are six time more likely to go to School Leadership and mentor twice as likely knew say how can that be thats because we are no longer advancing a small number of people that fit this ideal. Everyone has an opportunity to make it. In these environments something we havent touched on is employees are six times more likely to innovate. Innovation is critical for the future world of work its more about how we get it its not just a be a quick fix more about understanding why is that you do not have that now and what is it that doesnt support women to advance. For me its about taking a longterm approach this a longterm commitment to fixing your work pick onchip workplace. So i do a lot of work with gender equality. We really want more women in Senior Leadership. We just cant find them. What i always say to them, this jibes with your research. Look at the entry level. If your entrylevels 5050 and your leadership is 80 or 90 male, you are losing these women as not that they all want to go off and have babies, right. You need to look at every single level and see where the need is an see where the problem is with the organization. I think what youre talking about, it does lead to more innovation and more women being promoted. Its kind of all comes around to that success being a longterm proposition but what i also love about what youre talking about is that longterm answer number of years, its not a generation. If you look at a law firm, consulting firm, its a business where youre bringing them in an entry level within seven or eight years the entry level people can become senior people right . You go ahead. So i was going to say to that point about leaders saying we cant find them, i get told that all of the time when i worked in the energy, manufacturing i get told that all the time but what i will say to that is organizations that do this well, in terms of getting Women Leaders into their organization, firstly have the right environment so its easier for them to attractive women into their organization. Women know, women are smart. We look at the get the ranking of the most equal sort of work and environment we note the organizations that support us. Those of the organizations that are going to attract the best talent when it comes to women in all underrepresented groups. Got to create the right environments for them to be successful. Secondly we need to say it we cannot find a women what theyre really saying is they cant. The reason i say that is how many leaders have exposure to underrepresented groups in terms of qualified, able candidates. You can simply hosting events and expose yourself to a broad range of qualified, capable black women, white women, women from hispanic, lg bt cute represented as a range different sexes. Really expose yourself to different and ensure that you understand the capability does exist out there. Its just you have not been exposed to what we find is when leaders of built up networks, when comes time to hiring a leader, they know capable qualified candidates. That something every single leader and organization can do today. You can actively seek out within your Organization Even externally women you can mentally coach and groom ideally to take your role when you leave. Its not to say they will get it in a quota base, its really about finding qualified, capable highly experienced candidates. The same way you support men to advance but they also do for underrepresented groups. I see this playing out in organizations its lazy to say we cant find them. Its like no or not expose them and best were out there. Youve just not reached out, if not made your mission to have a diverse network. That is factually true. Men dont have Diverse Networks they just dont have the exposure for those candidates very think that something every own a joint owner need to take membership five. So is not just women its underrepresented groups which is a very key point. You also talk a lot about this in the book and we expand for the people here about inter sectional sexism and bias. If you could perhaps explain what that is and how that plays out . Two i am so passionate about this and i talk about it in the book particularly as aye south african, which is where i grew up. To me ive had to check my own privilege but ive had to understand being aye woman is not much easier to advance in organizations compared to women of color or in those minority groups its not a uniform group and that is an important point. Specifically in the book for every barrier i talk about how difference compounds the challenges. What i said before the more ways you differ the more barriers youre going to face. Whats really important for me, we think about women and how we support women at work or how we dont support women at work engaging in some of those exclusionary behaviors, its really important that what women want from men in organizations, they have to be prepared to women of color. Im sort white women want from organizations they have to be prepared to give to women of color. That is to know what the barriers are, note the lack of awareness creates the barriers. How they have a role in removing those barriers producing this all the time when it comes to racism and gender. You get the mix of gendered racism and its a whole new experience of equality and organization. Something as simple as speaking out for white women you might be defined by the standard of general femininity and speaking up and being more dominant. Black women have to came up with both of them. One of the stereotypes out there for workplaces is the angry black woman stereotype read when they speak up its much more noticed much more heavily penalized or policed. They really have to think about my activating both the gender and race stereotype. Am i going to be seen automatically as the angry black woman even if im just asserting myself in a standard way. They carried this double burden. It creates a much heavier word emotionally and mentally to carry. Thats never getting the Work Environment centered work with difference for it i think every single one of us can make it our mission to not only understand the barriers and how theyve shown up for us but to understand the barriers of how they show up for all areas of difference. Particularly when it comes to race. I talk about it in the book. If you look at the history of feminism, it was stolen along time ago by white women. They were not interested in advancing the needs of all women. As very much white women. Women who are most like to advance with white women they have their whiteness in common with the prototype or even if you look to the distribution of leadership positions today that supports that claim. Tout we create an environment to support everybody to advance because the whole set up with the prototype doesnt really work for anybody. Its less about having organizations that are designed for one particular prototype and much more creating about organizations that are designed around values like kindness, empathy, innovation, and giving people different ways to engage. Im not saying all femininity is bad it might be appropriate to mask your behaviors. Gives both men and women the way to be as effective as possible. That is something we rarely need was of the Technological Advancements that are coming our way that are going to transform the way we work. Can you though talk about a little bit of that you mentioned this in the book id love for you to give us some specifics. Those of us who are white need to spend our White Privilege what is that mean . What is that actually look like. I think about in the book because i think it is really important. The key to this is ally ship. What you know what your privileges, and my cases my whiteness. I know even though its hard for me its much harder for women of color for example. So i can make it my mission to find capable, experience, qualified women from underrepresented racial and ethnic minority groups coach them and groom them and wasted work into my role when i leave thats exactly what im asking men to do across the boards you can pay it forward in that way. I think the key is also knowing what the barriers are in how they play out different really talk about the angry black women when that plays out it is in passing if a black woman in a meeting asserts herself and they frown or go quiet, that is my opportunity to lean in and amplify her message and support her as her illini. And knowing shes probably going to be penalized for speaking up. Thats really what it is about. Once you know what the barriers are that most people are likely to encounter you know you comply role to amplify their message or support tempered the one thing i will say though is it is very important in this work when youre spending your privilege by their calling out sexist behaviors advocating for your colleagues or even making aware of them when youre doing all of that its really important to not approach from that position of i am helping you. We see that a lot and current sort of gender particularly with the men you see im helping this Disadvantage Group that simply not the case simply witnessing discrimination nosy inequality moments the daytoday sexist comments when he witnessed that it has the same negative or detrimental impact on your mental and Emotional Wellbeing as if you experienced it yourself. Most people dont like to watch their colleagues being or marginalize it creates a hostile environment. This is marc very much about a Work Environment that works for everybody. You feel better when you are an illini you have a better Work Environment in advance of that sort of environment for its actually for your benefit. Think thats the key to this. Serves to benefit everyone. You make this point you dont want to be like you are trying to help with the right way to do this is it to have a conversation privately with the person, how do you support them in a way that works for everyone . Two i think you got to do the work. I dont need men to help me. And very competent and capable as i am. I need men to remove the barriers they create to my advancement. For example negative gender norms is a label ive given to one of the key barriers women face which is daytoday discriminated station and marginalization for a limited view example. As a manager i walked into the kitchen at work on my very first day picked up a detailed through that me he said michele, you are woman, why dont you wash the dishes . I was the only manager on that team he was a female part all the men who reported to me were standing around the kitchen none of them said anything. It that moment, had a choice i could either stick up for myself and my gender which is a part of my identity. Or i could play long but then i would be mocking who i am. So i turned to him and said, you know what youve got two hands why dont you wash the dishes yourself. In that moment he said this is why i hate working with women because they cant take a joke. That was my very first day as a manager at gnostic example of a gender norm this underlying joking or underlying banter, sort of a drip drip drip of these moments makes you question your legitimacy whether would have it research talks about summons humming in your workplace. You here you go around asking people hey whos humming in every sense its not me im not humming. In fact you are the one whos having seen to fix yourself. Thats exactly what gender and equalities like daytoday its a background noise it takes a toll on women. What we are really asking for is in those moments to be an illini. Any one of those men could have turned to the leader and said hate thats not cool. Hey, dont do that. Any one of them. They couldve taken action to speak up but they have to know at the barriers are haptic knowledge in that moment. Speck the anecdote you just told about being told to wash the dishes is something that probably every working woman can relate to. That has happened about a thousand times to every working woman. The key then is not just for the women to defend herself but one of the guys to recognize that it is wrong and to call it out. Or for any colleague to recognize it is wrong and call it out. Speck the win as the men is because they are in position of privilege its much easier for them who process the prototype of power to call it out. I would say its very hard for people to for marginalized groups to do that. Im certain amount of privilege i couldve walked away from that employer which is a privilege in and of itself pretty easy for them to do it. For men you have to call it out. When you do that it is incredibly powerful. You are resetting the norms the acceptable behaviors in that team. Two very powerful thing to do. Lets talk about the she went over relatively quickly earlier you say theres the three phases of a womans career and theres different obstacles in each of the three phases. Lets just walk through that so people understand where youre going without. So when i started researching the different barriers women encounter, i wrongly assumed that women followed the same career path as men and wasnt until i looked at research and studied womens career path and i found that actually women tend to follow three distinct phases throughout their career. We start out, thats called the idealistic achievement phase and research we are idealistic work going to workplaces not knowing they are not going to function like school and we believe that inequality might happen to some people but its not going to happen to us. We alone can overcome it. There is that belief based on what weve been told to expect. As i said before, what we find is not being prepared really leads that drop off incompetent and internalization of the barriers. Thats up until so goahead. Host i think he said 24 to 35 age . Switch to thats around that i hate giving hard lines because it really depends on your personal circumstances. Roughly that phase will encounter some of those barriers from earlier on this expectation, performance tax, youll experience a lot of those then we experience walkthrough womens careers the barriers dont just disappear. They reappear at different points in your career. For example conformity buying morse on chat most likely you will see that when you go into it workplaces but continues throughout your career prayed the ease of trying to show typically when you might encounter barriers. Once youve experienced that first idealistic phase, then roughly around age 35 or 45 around then you enter whats typically the motherhood phase for your either approaching motherhood or you are at an age youre close to approaching and you are also most likely positioned to take on a manager role. Even if you dont choose to have children you can encounter a lot of challenges with that phase. Truly the perfect storm its called the endurance phase and for good reason. Women have to endure and work all the barriers that come before but also new barriers as they try to leave the negative gender dorms. I took my boss not teach how thats when it really starts to happen also things like the motherhood tax, the motherhood penalty, even if you. [inaudible] something we havent even talked about which is sort of the mental and emotional lows women carry from having to manage all the activity in the household and the domestic responsibilities and childrens schedules and all of those invisible loads that women carry outside of work. That phase is really difficult for women to survive. As i talk about in the book if you do survive it, you get to the final phase which is known as a contribution phase. I think, joanne this makes women so remarkable. Once it gone through all of that in women who do survive, they may want to contribute. They want to make a difference, they want to make it easier for the next generation thats why the final phase is a contribution phase. Whats amazing is a remove all the barriers just for these jobs i dont want to just do their job they want to make it easier for the next generation. I think that is incredible we talk about how hard it is for them to do that they have to achieve the impossible for navigating all of these barriers to do their job and then to try to make it easier and contribute to that next generation. Those are really the three phases for women i think its important that leaders in particular understand how womens careers differ from men in that way to support their development. Is very important point we talk about that endurance phase in the middle so much of what we hear is this is when women are having children, families, the elderly relatives to care for. This got the pull of family prayer theres so Much Research that shows us that women who choose not to marry, not to have children face that same career gap as men in that same age group. There is that expectation youre talking about is put on these women even though they are conforming to the stereotype of a woman with the babies at home in the elderly parents. Speech was incredibly challenging for women nearing that age but ive been in loads of meetings with Leaders Within make assumptions on the secession plantings by saying things like oh shes likely to get married soon, probably should not put her in that role. Shes. Smack i have been in more meetings that i can count heres a great opportunity and someone else will say you know susan will be perfect for that and someone will say the you know what, susan has a baby at home, shes not going to want to travel, ive heard susans husband has a great job, she is not going to want to put in that many hours. As all of these assumptions that are made on behalf of women in these opportunities that they would be great for our never even presented to them. I do think you make a great point ask the women, dont make assumptions on her behalf. Absolutely International Assignments are great one. Most people need International Assignments to some degree to advance that level they need the exposure to go around the globe they need the experience of different environments because that is how you learn. Men are much more likely to get those opportunities that women. Its because we make these assumptions about womens capability. I always say you can be penalized with the motherhood penalties without even being a mother. That is why it is really important we start to impact that. The exposure opportunities are critical. Without them its very easy for leaders to lean on ambiguous things like she needs more time in her role, she lacks judgment, catchphrases for preventing a woman from advancing when in reality she does not have access to those opportunities to have exposure and judgment to move up. Its really about how can we afford women the same Development Opportunities were affording men understand what it is as an organization we need to do to help women accommodate for those outside of work and increasingly men want to be home they want to be involved fathers and talk about that. We need this on both sides. Host heres the big question, how do we convince men this is actually their issue. We know young men say they care a lot about family time. When youre talking about the people in leadership, the don draper model, the white male, they see this as way to second why should i give up my power to let in these other folks its going to take away opportunity for me . I know theres all kinds of research and you have cited it as well showing us theres a real business imperative to do this companies with gender balance are more successful, more innovative their earnings are better the return on equity improves theres a lot of research but what it comes down to the individual men who have those positions of power, what is the reason that will make them open their eyes to understanding what the barriers are, why they should allow women through the door as well . I want to acknowledge women who might be watching this that today a lot of work and diversity has not been inclusive to men. We have not been speaking to the barriers men face there about six of them to identify in the book that everything from silencing men at work, that challenges men face trying to be the breadwinner image and the associated cost with that. The silencing that happens in more places where men have to conform you saw my examples of my boss or the dishtowel, we dont really acknowledge the challenges inequality creates for men i am not a fan of Business Cases the reason i say that that its inherently misogynistic. We dont have a Business Case for why we should have white male leaders yet we require every other area of difference. Even with the Business Cases that clearly show diverse teams, diverse organizations, more Inclusive Organization and leaders are just better acrosstheboard in terms in terms of innovation and creativity, Revenue Growth is just better to have a diverse Team Customers are not all the same either so you need this team to meet a sort of global marketplace. Even talking the Business Case comment talking the barriers men face. One simple fact i found through my research that at least in the work i have done with meant really brings it home is there is this assumption that the ideal instrument its a belief that don draper got us here, living up to that so it must Still Service prayed the reality is it doesnt. I work with an organization that the Global Financial Services Organization i had this question at a roomful of male leaders i said does not serve you today because you do not have the cognitive behavioral and emotional diversity to be a very effective team. You are all thinking and acting in the same way. As i mentioned before a lot of the disruptive changes things like ai, robotics, nanotechnology receiving at least 60 of jobs in the next three years according to the World Economic forum has to change so we are seeing a need for new and different times of skills to look at those skill sets things like persuasion isolation, effectiveness and being more inclusive, and engaging in behaviors we typically associate with the Women Leaders. They are much more what we call Transformational Leadership thats more democratic and collaborative. So i actually research this myself and asked of 100 leaders, men and women in an organization what are the top five capabilities that are required in the future world of work . Is things like achieving results through people. Collaboration, creativity, the typical behaviors the World Economic forum side. Out of those top five how many do women have today . Respondent say women have for out of the five top capabilities in the future world of work. Both men and women. Both men and women say men have one out of five. The reason for that is don draper was back in the 1950s when he had Ford Motor Company coming up with this ideal of what it looks like in terms of leadership. That model, that ideal does not Service Today and it wont service in the future. Men need this more than women. Men need the way to engage in a broad range of behaviors the femininity stigmas, when they gauge and more empathy and sort of some of the softer skills that are associated with women, they are penalized because theyre not living up to it. Its really about men who truly compete in the future world of work them inclusive leaders, they need this more than we do. Host we are running out of time if you could perhaps and on, if theres one take away here you would like to make sure people understand when they read your book . It is as simple as this. It is not you, its your workplace. Get to know the barriers because the problem is not you and we need to fix organizations so they work for everyone. Michele, thank you so much for being here today it is a pleasure speaking with you, the book is the fix. I wish you all the best, thank you so much. Thank you so much. starts tonight at 7 30 p. M. Eastern, find more information on your Program Guide or online at booktv. Org. [inaudible background conversations]