Go so far to offer pronouns with consent and changing conditions and in one case you wrote the young man was critical of the classic markers of masculinity but he also aspired to them that there is a ghost that follows these young men around i hope you could talk about that quick. Its almost if they layer the new expectations on top of the old ones without really challenging or looking at or eliminating so on one hand yes, they see women deserving of their place in the classroom and to be leaders as they are but yet in the public arena they are still encouraged to see the mark of a man being a sexual conquest with being as many partners as possible and not treating the partners as well. So the boys in the locker room are talking. When they talk about sex they say i banged or hammered or nailed like they went to a construction site not as engaging in an act that some are really struggling with that contradiction. I was taken by that idea as well. You talk to a lot of young man in the hookup culture or the facets of oldschool masculinity. At times did they tell you they were afraid of things such as intimacy and it sounds like you kept finding the men that looked at the hookup and misogynistic culture it hurt them as well . I guess i feel like when i wrote girls and sex that they were disconnected for their desire. So constantly wrestling with ideas of vulnerability and to avoid crying. And to say i never cry. But then his parents got divorced and he wanted to cry. So he streamed holocaust movies back to back and that worked. But if we cut them off that they have can only feel happiness and anger and Everything Else behind a wall with the essential fundamental part of humanity it is the secret sauce that keeps relationships together so young men are really detached to communicate and with the idea of intimacy and i was captivated by you have these conversations with young men and time and time again it seems as if the concept you were breaking bringing up whether intimacy or expression of wants and needs and desires but that you broaching the subject might have been the first time they considered it and may have seem shocked. How eager they were to talk and to talk to teenage boys and that could possibly be on a woman and then to drop that mask i learned to put our wall up and then they didnt want to confide in anybody so obviously this is some New Territory with those limitations so how do you feel as a researcher coming in. So i just thought i had written about girls for 25 years so that is uncomfortable but nobody is talking to boys or hearing what they have to say that is really a new era in terms of and hookup culture and then to best guide them and then metoo exploded. And that put attention on boys behavior because we want to reduce sexual violence. But it created an opportunity to engage boys in this conversation and then maybe it was unprecedented it was the shadow looming in the background those that you talk to see not only cognizant did they realize that is something they should consider or change your behavior . And how that they see their world and the place in it. For those that are in denial. That anyone that assaults is a monster and only monsters assault. And as the overarching idea that blinds us to the everyday collision with that Sexual Misconduct everybody thinks theres a guy. But sometimes a good guy can do a bad thing and thats what we have to reckon with. And with those metoo allegations so what he did it was just a matter of ethics with that everyday power dynamic. And to see her limits as a challenge and it is a great want to have a discussion. Near the end of the book and talk about this culture about the good guy talk the brock turner case which is infamous situation of Sexual Assault and that he is a good guy that inherent meaning behind the letters is a good guy cannot commit these actions. And then to feel differently or how we move forward . I walked away feeling to have a lot more conversations with boys what not to do and what to do. They tend to over perceive yes especially if they have been drinking. And then to see it as a come on. Then they are less likely to perceive a hesitation and then we really have to shift that conversation how alcohol affects the power dynamic and behavior. What you are talking about is that a taboo subject. Talk about sexual education not up to the level we need to had and not to find a new way forward abstinence education talks about it as a problem. Sexual education talks about how to prevent problems. And that idea of sexual education and how this realm should work. Thats true. And then risk and danger. We need to make a shift to responsibility. I have to say, i understand most parents would stab their sons in the eye with a fork then talk to their sons about sex and sexual pleasure and reciprocity. But we dont have the luxury anymore of remaining silent about these issues because if we dont talk to our kids in todays world they will be educated by media and we will not like the results. So yes talking to our kids about sex but not only sex but media messages and gender dynamics and consent of these other issues this book was the first time that i was more prescriptive at the end of the book to take the reader into a place that exemplifies and writing about adolescence and sexuality you lay some substantial claims in the book to talk to their sons about sex and to say the superficial resistance teenagers say they want information but that isnt happening because of awkwardness or fear but you mention the eye opening culture to begin sexual education as early as four and as teenagers they have families sanctioned sleepovers with significant others as early as 14 and 15 that dutch teenagers have better relationships, they have sex at later ages and report more satisfaction. I found that an interesting concept. You are partners also. The research that compared dutch and American College students so it was apples to apples demographic looking at the early sexual experience that the dutch had everything that we say we want for our kids. Because prepared for the experience responsibly low stds and less likely to be drunk and more likely to be sober and enjoyed it more and could communicate with their partner that they knew very well everything they had americans did not. So what they found was the dutch student said their parents and teachers and doctors talk to them from a very early age about sex and emotional intimacy and sexual pleasure. It made me think as a parent myself americans tend to frame discussions solely in terms of risk and danger so shifting that conversation to talking about responsibility and joy. Im a parent myself that shifted my mentality more than anything else. That is telling because it sounds like the americans approach conversation about sex between parents and children is with apprehension and fear. From these conversations youre having with young men either the first sexual encounter or while they are navigating the politics it is happening outside of parents purview, at parties, and unsupervised gatherings with alcohol involved, expectations when you read the description it sounds sinister and frightening to the people involved there are a lot of miscommunications where people can make bad decisions or be put in danger. And that has an effect. There is a lot of ambivalence and a fair amount of trauma. You say kids roll their eyes but thats what we do all the time. But another thing what i found with the dutch is we use that opportunity of negotiating the terms of the sleepover with the significant oh one other as another way to reinforce their values to talk about protection and safety and creates a soft control over kids that we dont have and in American Culture we pretend its not happening. And the results are not safe. Capping and over conversation on television it feels a little revolutionary at times. It sure does. And the guy say to me all the time of never talked like this to anybody before i never admitted this before this is like therapy. I got a lot of that and i thought i learned so much and they stay in touch and i thought i am a stranger imagine if they could have these conversations with the adults in their lives were with their peers or in their own head. Host when you have these conversations in the book it struck me that you found a level of intimacy with these young men that they never talked about and one of the things that keeps coming up in these conversations that is very notable is fear and the insecurity the fear of being judged, not fitting i in, excommunicated from their groups, i feel you could move beyond that to find at the heart of this is fear. Vulnerability and shame and collision and this is the opportunity to have this conversation was somebody in that protected space were nobody they knew would see them talking and allow them to have those conversations. The conversations you are having we fall on evolved around here pressure and young men especially in the vacuum of their parents or their elders talking to them about sexualit sexuality, a lot of the appears fill the vacuum of the conversation. It sounds like they are inherently dangerous like locker room culture definitely plays into rape culture and misogyny so can you talk about the role of mail insecurity and peer pressure and how it perpetuates these ideas . That man boxes very small. So one way is by being silent in the face that they know is wrong or violates morals in the face of misogyny or homophobia. I had problems of how difficult that was. So in one case one guy on his crew team him and a guy tried to stand up to another boy who was saying something despicable about girls. The other boys just laughed at them and mocked them. So the boy i was talking to stop talking. His friend continued to challenge sexism and misogyny and he said and i watched while he was marginalized. The other boy stopped liking him as much and he lost all social capital in here i had buckets of social capital but wasnt spending it and then looked very pained he looked at me in agony and said i dont want to have to choose between my dignity so how do i make it i dont have to choose. I have that exact quote written down. So its getting to the heart of the situation i kept finding in my own research men put on persona to mask insecurity in one thing with rape culture and misogyny those that play characters but they never understand the other men execute as well and it turns into a competition to see who could be the most missiles and check on misogynistic this was a young man named call for your book he was really lost in your conversation so this was a young man that understood the morality and the ethics and the situation but felt powerless and for you to talk to a young man like tha that, i thought that was truly remarkable. Thank you. I really like what you say underneath that competitive culture so also with the word hilarious and that is another push with that deflected shield if it is a reprehensible or inappropriate or violates morals and you dont want to say anything because if you do you will be ostracized they can you can always say thats hilarious and thats a safe space. Hilarious is another way to cut off to be cut off from real emotions with that more compassionate response when women are the subject of what they say is hilarious and at the far end i am interested in reading of the high profile stories of Sexual Assault by High School Students so often their defense when they are caught we thought we were being funny. It was hilarious. That encapsulates to put up the shield or the safe space and if this is hilarious and theres no problem certainly dont need to feel any empathy. Host to use the term safe space a lot of people who owe behave in misogynistic behavior are part of the rape culture will criticize the idea of a safe space to care about how other people feel. One thing that kept coming back around those that would say awful things that obviously covering up their own insecurities but these were people who did not feel they were safe and kept coming back around to the idea they had to pretend in public. What is the disconnect . Whats happening with young men but seemingly in search of their own . Its hard. As a young person you want to be accepted in part of the group you dont want to be excluded so with the support and encouragement and discussion to bring the culture down and for those that want to do that. I just got an email today from a boy from an excerpt in the atlantic he was 16, junior in high school that it made him feel validated to hear the voices of the other boys. So but boys themselves can challenge this culture and maybe open up a more meaningful dialogue within the peers or themselves. There is an aspect from the book there is a portion where you actually talk to young men who are actively engaged in hookup culture and seeking sexual conquest and having problems with intimacy and felt detached from themselves and interactions with other people a profound loneliness and sadness. But you mentioned even some of them except in rare cases that you would consider victims of Sexual Assault or taken advantage of were unable to express that and in some cases the men around them even congratulated them for what they were doing with the selfharm in the situations. I thought that was really telling. One guy had a fairly traumatic first sexual experience that i would never tell that to my friends because as a guy, it has to be great, its always great. It is great. So yes, it was interesting how often the issue of unwanted sex came up because we think of this is just an issue with girls but in fact boys experience a lot of unwanted sex sometimes they brush that off or make it into a joke or masculinity issues but for a few of them, especially if it is their first time and they wanted it to be significant and caring was somebody that meant something to them, if they had been taken advantage of or incapacitated, they reacted very much the way girls react in that situation. They had trouble with their schoolwork and become angry and lash out but theres no way to discuss that and i guy said to me when i try to talk to the girl she said dont give me that all guys want sex but once you say no you dont have Sexual Agency and that in itself is an issue. Beyond that if you cant say no im not so sure you cant ever hear it. That is a pretty important repercussion at the heart of all of this with the ability to discuss it. You brought this up, you wrote that job culture fraternities, silicon valle valley, hollywood and the military justifies misogyny and hostility. Can you talk more about that and what do you think the repercussions are of these problems going out into the world is boys and young men and sex . So in that section and team spirit and camaraderie learning how to problem solve it is fun. But that culture that supposedly builds character can in some circumstances be a smokescreen where there is bullying and guys bond by bragging about the ability to control the female body maybe not surprisingly by the time they get to college or three times more likely than others to be brought up on charges of assault. So that lack of talk for some goes beyond that. What was interesting to me , was that a lot of boys that i spoke with that love the sport they were playing, dropped out. Not because they didnt love it or didnt want to play it but they didnt like the job culture and it offended them and they didnt know how to speak out against it and then be perpetuated by coaches as well. So for that spectrum one that was recruited at the college said he couldnt handle the way both the coaches and the players were talking. Said he dropped out of the sport but he transferred to another school. He felt there wasnt room for him socially. That was pretty extreme. But i also believe in there are organizations that the all meal cultures are principle of changing can be leveraged to challenge some of these ideas and get us talking about it. You talk about mentor ship whether coaches and fathers and where that can go right and wrong and in particular i was struck by the idea young men desperately want their fathers to talk to them. Thats a great resource for them to learn about how to behave as men in the world. But it seems like from the book and experience, older men give the wrong lessons and actually make sure these young men are steeped in toxic masculinity and conquest culture so there is a pervasive influence with that. Yes and with they are told is respect women but that was meaningless thats like telling somebody dont run over the little old lady but then hand them the car keys. You dont think they will but they still dont know how to drive and guys would talk a lot about wishing and with sex and intimacy and with their own regret. So i know their fathers did not talk to them. There is not a culture we have of dads talking to sons in the authentic and connected way. But if you take that leap it will make a difference. So drop the pressure to feel you have to be perfect. Either in terms of what you say or who you are. You can make mistakes and say i wasnt right when i said that or say you are 16 weve never had a conversation. Thats something i want to correct now. It will be hard but i want to do it even if you have had success in your relationships , that doesnt mean you dont have wisdom to offer to your son. Speaking of wisdom lingering questions it seems that you were one of the first people to talk to them about the subjects and many seemed relieved and to take your counsel and want to talk about these things openly and as a researcher how did you feel in the middle of this . Did you feel you needed to offer guidance or were you removed . Yes i have compassion for the boys that i spoke with him felt that sense of connection to the them. I felt like i was doing something for them by just having the conversation. Like you said they felt such a relief and it got them thinking just to give them that space and room to think through their ideas of what had affected them. That was helpful like i was dealing with something. Host talk about the young men who have kept in touch with you where there any who felt uncomfortable or were worried opening up and be honest would be damaging where they felt guilt . I dont know how they felt afterwards. I know. Of course it wasnt like we just walked into the room and they said everything in their heart. Some spoke a lot so there was a range but what i would hear mostly is that it was a positive experience for them. So there is a chapter in the first half of the book which deals with the prevalence of online pornography and the readiness of it out there. I had to read this line a few times you said young peoples erotic imaginations are shaped long before with even a good night kiss and going back to the beginning of that working my way through to think about the consequences of that. When you have these discussions it seems like with men and women generations coming up with the internet and readily available pornography have a different understanding of how it me moves forward and seems to forced from any real connection. Were you shocked by that . So to be the de facto sex educator for young people we dont talk to them as parents are we dont talk to them in school if they ask that is natural but what is different for this generation with the smart phone and the dropping of pay walls on porn sites they can get anything they want and a whole lot of things that nobody wants at their fingertips on their phone. So that shows distorted they are not accessing ethical porn but what is easy or free and that tends to be images that show is what men do to women and for pleasure and performance and for mens pleasure to destroy the body obviously a lack of connection a lot of facts that would not feel good to most people and with that personal understanding they say i know thats not real. But we also know that when we absorb media it affects our thoughts and beliefs and feelings so yes maybe they know in a theoretical way is not real but then if they think it is real and they are definitely taking those ideas into the bedroom. In addition to readily available pornography the dating apps and hookup apps that have really change the way people approach so how that has affected the dynamics and the people involved and is definitely been an obstacle. That is true. But in college obviously High School Students are not supposed to be on those dating apps but the college kids use it in a way like video games theres a lot of backandforth but one thing that was interesting to me was how much there was sexual racism there has been a huge problem in the south no asians or blacks and one guy that i talked to who was Asian American who said they talk back and forth with a girl and then she said we can be friends but no offense i dont date asian guys. How is that no offense . That is an interesting topic because those conversations you talk about in the book it seems the young men that you talk to are more aware than ever of this idea of proclivity and sexual politics and the need to be politically correct. And in one moment you mentioned there is more accepting like lgbtq that then you feel like the conversations are layered with homophobic slurs either misogynistic ideas so how did you feel navigating the text in subtext of the conversations . That is what it was all about and at the heart of it with a contradiction between the messages they are getting and the ones that have not gone away. I had a real concern with gay boys in particular on one hand its a new world we have a president ial candidate who is gay there is stuff where its completely different straight boys have gay friends but on the other hand theres a way that was social but nobody was talking to gay boys about the sex part in what was happening is a number of underage boys were telling me how they were lying about their age and going on and hooking up with much older men. Not telling anybody obviously not their parents or their friends and that was concerning. Listed if you were a girl and told me that story i would feel i would have to report that to somebody why would i not feel that way in this case . He looked down and said i dont know. So we have to think about those straight parents need to be better educated about the kinds of things that people of the same gender might be doing together and talk to their gay sons about sex and their values and how we can provide them in social situations to have the ageappropriate experience. There is a harrowing account of an encounter that you wrote about the young boy that you talk to said something along the lines maybe Sexual Assault but i wont say it was not Sexual Assault. Did you get a sense that these young men were taking into consideration their own safety if it was imminent bodily harm or stds . It seems they are very aware of the political and social capital but what about body harm . Gay boys in particular . Any boy. With gay boys, i did not i really worried about the gay guys and their safety and i also worried either way they were not using condoms and gonorrhea and syphilis in that community are very high so there is a way then say its not so bad so then we need to talk a lot more to the boys about the other risks besides hiv to make sure they are engaging safely and mutually and joyfully and allowing for human connection. You mentioned and a lot of your conversations with the lgbtq boys there are moments they felt they are coming out or the conversation with their families, the woman you spotlighted felt being excommunicated from the family and they were comfortable with the people around them with some casual ignorance but i wondered what do you think the new challenges are as lgbtq people are more accepted . What do you see as the future challenges or society and how that matters . The imperative with Sex Education classes is to have education from that lgbtq perspective and not just those kids but all kids because otherwise those identities and sexualities are marginalized and stigmatized and they will stay that way unless it is more normalized in terms of people understanding. But i do want to say there was one thing about gay boys that i found fascinating and really important they were much better able and equipped to navigate Sexual Consent and to set the terms but they have to be because what would be happening was not assumed are obvious. So and advice columnist on sex says gay guys will use the four magic words what are you into when they start the sexual encounter. At the moment of consent its not just yes or no but the conversation in that openended conversation that we really want to encourage adults that kids in particular are asking early in their sexual histories so its not one person saying yes or no to a prescribed idea, but having an openended conversation about creating and experience to be mutually pleasurable, gratifyin pleasurable, gratifying, and consensual for all. I like the idea of the four magic words. What are you into. But i also find myself thinking of those words and why American Culture would be so hesitant to use them more or openended honest conversations. After all of these interviews and interactions, what do you take away from that that keeps americans from having these conversations . We just dont. We never have. Part of it is politics and part of it is culture but we live in this culture that is filled with Sexual Energy but yet completely silent about what constitutes mutually gratified sexual experience and when you start looking at that it is bizarre frankly. And like i said if we dont talk to our kids there are other jillion messages they are getting female sexual read and ability. And that is where they will absorb. After talking to girls and boys with these volumes what surprised you most diving into these projects and talking to these parties what are you walking away from to be the most surprised about where the most illuminated . To be the most valuable is learning how to have these conversations not just people in my life but in general. I was not born to come on to your tv show talking about sex. I was just as reluctant as any person growing up in American Culture. But it just seems like an imperative and if i wanted to help young people have more egalitarian and joyful sexual interactions and meaningful relationships i felt i had to step up. So learning how to do that is the biggest thing to me and i realized you can look at it as scary and awkward and as excruciating and if you feel that way but its also the opportunity to connect on a different level with your child and bill that and to show up with them and help them see how to have a difficult conversation because they cant have Difficult Conversations if they dont model that for them. You have had very successful conversations with those honesty gaps that they were suffering from. So what advice do you have for parents watching who would like to have that conversation or would like to talk to men about these topics . Where do you go inform these relationships based on honesty . Thats why i wrote the book. I really wanted to be a tool and it offers those ideas and i was hoping that would help parents to have the conversation and it would help boys reading it. But if you are watching this program right now watch it with your son. It can spark a conversation. You dont have to say tell me about you but what you think about what you are talking about. What about other guys that you know . That is a place to start. You just have to start. You said something in the prescriptive chapter that boys dont just the talk but multiple talks and an open dialogue between themselves and their parents or mentors with continuous conversation this is a very large topic that has a lot of reach in different parts of life and culture. What are the benefits of having a big, giant conversation . What could be more important than talking about your intimate relationships . Thats a good thing that will determine your wellbeing in life because Research Shows it is our personal relationships so we have these conversations focusing on your son or daughter to have a far more fulfilled life. Host and from your conversations do you feel they are hopeful about the direction of masculinity and manhood or is it feeling a very hard time to be a young man in america . I think constrained and for a way to engage in intimacy with emotional and physical that would be mutually gratifying and fulfilling. I would hope they wanted to have these conversations and engage that gives me great hope a better way moving forward. So walking away from this project did you feel the overwhelming sense of hope in terms of sexuality in america or did you feel there were still several roadblocks we have to take care of . We are in a very polarized country right now. This is as polarized as it gets. This is a tough one. But i do feel strongly. And so excited to get it out into the world because i felt like we do have this opportunity at this moment so when i first started to read about girls parents of boys would say im so relieved to have a boy because i dont have to think about these things. I say really . But that was the mentality and that has changed entirely. Now parents of boys are so eager to hear about these things and have these discussions because they also want change and realize it was a big challenge to raise a man of integrity and a world that gives the boys the message of the opposite. Host actually noticed in recent years in particular with the rise of metoo do with parents talking about the idea they are fearful of having boys and raising boys its a larger job now. What is behind that anxiety at this point . That is the lack of conversation so i would say we dont have a whole lot of say of what messages your son is absorbing but if we are thinking thoughtfully and intentionall intentionally, i feel like writing about girls 25 years ago, there was a lot of the same anxiety around girls there were so many girls and advocates and writers to engage with the ideas of the contradictory and conflicting messages. And they are not all the way there. That we are a lot further and they have a much bigger sense of possibility and personal power. So its time to bring our sons into that conversation to allow them so they can be the man we know they can be. Thank you. A very important book that i hope people take up and read, peggy. And then start over again. Thank you so much for having me we are not talking about a stimulus package but word i need to do primarily with the fiscal packages make sure that people can survive the. And then pay the rent and the utilities. It turns there is a thing that happened this process when you start because most of what we do is copying and the tools and training and comfort was solutions that exist. We have never been able to have diagnostic test this quickly. And then to watch and see the viral genome mutate which was critically important