Transcripts For CSPAN2 Chris Arnade Dignity 20240713

And then he is that phd in physics to go into finance. And many of this job in finance, he sort of going for walks during the day and abridge the story because its in the book. He talks got longer and longer and he ended up at hunts point. A note that is new york geography is not terribly most of the financial district. It was exposed to the back row of america. This is drug addicts, drug dealers, prostitutes. It is convince him that he needs to figure out what was going on in his back row across the country. Some from maine to bakersfield california, chris traveled the country and talk to people and, again, he was doing the same sort of going the country trip that a lot of people do pretty was visiting the back row, the drug addicts and dealers. Prostitutes, the homeless, the formerly homeless, the veterans, the immigrants, the people who created the immigrants and all that. Then recently, if you follow twitter, youll know that chris has visited the most deplorable group of old witches conservatives. [laughter]. He is here at aei and he visited the prostitutes in the tax collectors, chris is gone for lower visited the tax cutters. But again, i do recommend this book. I want to start by what hit me most in your discussion here was introspection and tunes in with the mindsets. Here we are in aei with almost all the scholars have advanced degrees in here we are in washington dc in the wealthiest arguably the wealthiest region in the country and definitely the most educated region in the country. So i want to start with i am a catholic and normally select the best of the ones that are most directed at the audience. Or the shortcomings. You talk about the immigration by the front row of what you call quote forms of non credentialed meetings other words, people fighting meeting outside of degrees and outside of jobs outside of income and outside of a nice house. And in other things. Can you talk to us about what you found around the country in that regards printed. Chris for small thank you all for coming in thank you for having me. And tim also wrote a book by the way. [laughter]. Should be that. So i guess, my book is political, or social logical. But i sat there is a week, like divide the front row in the micro fruit the bathroom people you will be seen on the streets here. The pictures of people who lived in the rocks. People who live in the north side of milwaukee, portsmouth, pictures of ohio, is not defined by geography, not this early by income although kind of estimate defined by race, but people who dont go to college or if they do they go to state schools or Community College. The conquest of that is my prior life, the ph d and physic i also spent 20 years as a bonded trader. I call that a front row. And as people to look very, come from all over the world. All of the u. S. But they share a common theme in their life. Ellipsis 16 has been through the same institution, harvard princeton yale, postgraduate degrees, internships, may be moving to new york city, may be dc but only certain neighborhoods in new york city and dc. We run the world. We walked the front row and set the rules and make the rules and we run the politics, and the making and the law firms. And we run academies, universities. One of the things we have done is to find a world of very narrowly in her mind. We only look at material things in particular, to get. Much Cultural Capital you get is some show how big arrhythmias. The credentialed economy. The things i have found in my turning his think you will see the pictures are people who find meaning in more traditional ways. Things you dont need a resume for. Very simple place. Where the value of living in the same neighborhood, the value of the friendships you formed in that neighborhood. Always likely think about well it started to hit me, i was interviewing people mostly at mcdonalds. I remember telling somebody bumping up one interview, they been born 20 miles down the road. Good either 68 or 70 years old and lived all their life there. And i said you lived here all your life right need to know. He said i was right down the road. [laughter]. Like he wanted me to get it right. When there was woman in cairo, an africanamerican town in missouri, messenger from there and she said no, from a mile outside of cairo. [laughter]. So Place Matters to people. Theres a lot of value in place. Another thing that matters and that also doesnt necessarily reap wires their credentials as a religious base. And a third is a dangerous one, racial identity. Effectively you can walk, things that give you meaning, give you value, we cant quantify. We cannot measure it, but also i think over time, the front row systems dont help value because we cant measure it. So we just tell people be a widget, go for me to be a move. What is the cost of that, its events. So the way we think about the world is a very narrow framework of only one think mattering is nothing that matters, is a resume, education, and how much money you make. Timothy is immeasurable. That is actually something that i have seen admitted and one economist speaking here, said that when she saw the book the billy, she really didnt like it and none of her friends did because it was appetizing things that were so vague and airy White Community bonds and the they were looking for other ways to measure success or value or anything like that. But as i think it starts a lot of people as arbitrary. Which is to say that you will see this article like in the washington headline, loyalty is known. And people will constantly talk about the accident of where you were born and we can say is unfortunate that it can determine your outcome. The accident of where youre born does not seem like an accident or something that can be swapped out for changing the color of your hair. Seems to actually matter to a lot of people. But in the front row, it seems arbitrary. And clinging to it seems unwise. An efficient and best. Chris so this place and we devalue them because we cant measure them. Begin work quantitative. This way we think about policy printed in the home living thing. But i think back to where i disagree with all of the conservatives of adult like the way we think about the front row free trade is is a tradeoff. Its a positive. There will be winners and losers and we are going to it game over. But we dont know, we cant measure the losses. So the spreadsheet of the spreadsheet losses look like a factory born in milwaukee. But in real life, the loss is a fact regarding milwaukee which destroyed communities, destroyed families which destroyed the kids born out of wedlock. Rings and drugs. But often more than that, it takes away peoples meaning. Like that was their center of the universe to be able to live in milwaukee and stay there. Dad downtown bars. Timothy the rising bread measure is the way to measure the fact of the effects of free trade have not been sort of distributed evenly across the country but have been very uneven and the places you have talked about is not experienced a slight decrease in the equilibrium wage. But when factories shut down, a lot more happened then just less money was flowing in there. Chris exactly. And the induration to the solution was to just move. I comes from the right by the way this whole uhaul thing. So offensive. People dont necessarily want to have the money to move in your asking them to sell it at a low. Timothy so thats the number one question i got in the navy america should these people move. And you spent more time talking to people and some of these towns, you look around and is hard to see. You and i both moved to places where we had the best job opportunities. New york and for me dc and it is hard to say that if you cared about this person was in a town where theres no jobs and drugs are running rampant, its unlikely they can raise her kids safely there. Or did you say to them. Chris personal ive never told anybody not to move. But what i would say to them, im speaking to the policy people who assume that moving is easy. They also said that moving has no cost. References all of the time. Theres this woman in the book was a perfect example, mexicanamerican woman who i bet and mcdonalds in his delay. And she was figure to to the local Community College bypassing the opportunity to go to another school because she was saying there to be her moms translator. Her moms first generation like a lot of older immigrants she is now, this documents for her mother. Why do we think should be think that that is the right decision in my mind. And in, why should we expect people to just be able to tear family bonds is still restless at low prices and also getting back to meaning, those have value to people. They dont require money to have those. Doesnt gifted a birth i did take us away from people is essentially, extraordinary elitist. Timothy so im here and people recognize me know me. And for 20 years ive been bossa nova written a book can help you get these credentials and meaning if youre still in, your known and you have credentials a meeting for having been around for 20 years. One of the words, and to talk about tribalism has become very negative the recent years. We noted means by that then politics is just what i read this, about how kabbalistic the fish for wanting to leave it just caring about them. Then he describes group of friends and how much they were going to loose from brexit, because they were all in his federal constantly traveling to europe and enjoying the food from their leaves describing a tribe. As you described it, you talk about your group and your shared experience. Unpaid have left us with all the same room field. Dedicated to knowledge. Our community was global. So in other words the front row, six try to think that is above tribalism. And it tribalism is actually necessary. Dont know if you agree with this blue think people need to belong to tribes. Chris people need to belong and be a valued member of something larger than themselves. If that is a church group, if that is a law firm, if that is a bowling league. People need to be a valued member. We are the cool kids is how i describe it. We set the rules of what school. When you make people feel they are in a rat race, that is humiliating. The opposite of humiliation is looking for dignity. Dignity is a double edged sword. The search for dignity could be positive. You can fight dignity and creating art, you can find dignity of making a member of your community, raising a family, this also ways we would rather people not find dignity i think part of that is going to the race thing you can find dignity or tribalism and dignity and other forms. Host i think when people are humiliated they search for a way to find the dignity and theres negative consequences of that. I think some of it your sing politically these days, a tribe very much a tribe there are non resume their nontraditional form, come join the election thing and lets have fun. Speech of the argument i make in my book as a trump phenomenon is people seeking to belong. Meaning and dignity are part of it. The framework is belonging to something. My argument is in the suffering parts of america whats lacking is things to belong to. And so i looked at a lot of these places that were suffering and i saw the swingle had pulled down, the factory closed down and you still get the disability or unemployment or whatever that adds up to it does not even come close to adding up to belonging to this workplace, the labor union that shut down. That alienation what it leads to largely is a street gang is isis, white nationalism, sometimes its wearing the red hat that people who dont belong to anything the bitter ironing, i think for a lot of political left and theres a handful of liberal writers have written this, some may sit at that we are more secular country would all get along better because we would not have these religious divisions. When we belong to the church than more people are going to belong to things in one way or another will cause more strife or not lead them towards happiness and the good life. That is my argument out of the way you think about that. So theres variations on the theme. I think both of our books talked about this. Me, less explicitly than you, the loss of the jobs cascaded everything. Their engine im very much on the left on this one. The loss of all these other forms of meaning, the original sense was the lost of the factory which lost ability, all those things you said that were once there to join those started dissipating. I am less comfortable talking out about more cultural issues because its not my strong point is not where i come from. I think the right does have people on the right does have the say this is someone to a agnostic is the loss of faith is huge. Absolutely huge. Think he went to Salt Lake City or brook right . So yes. It didnt make my book but one that was contrary to my thesis was utah. It does not have the levels of despair or the other places have. And has him but it doesnt have them and the reason being the church is there. It provides people with a very central role, provides the classic both regulates and provides people the sense of place. I say this as a leftist agnostic the solution to whatever we have going on in my mind is the fall of the church has been a big loss that many places cup capitalism and respect. As a tugofwar we dont go too far, scurrying as a capitalist your neighbor because youve got those religious rules there. Capitalism without religion is a disaster. Host gerry was a man as he put it did not know his abcs and he said he always felt them, and as he put it its not the way i as a catholic whatever put it. Then i got saved it changed me. I never felt worthy before i got saved. And now i understand i am worthy of the lord. That to me is the most noncredentialed form of meaning. You literally just for being human, become worthy. Our modern culture and economy does not grant that. If you cant read, if you have the wrong views or whatever its hard to find. I want to move on, i will come back to make it uncomfortable for the rights in a little bit. But i want to pick on the left for a little bit. You and i had the same experience of surprisingly being a bit ignored in our books by the left. Specifically, use the phrase of people who were left behind and dignity. There is an interview on fox. Com there is a professor who is arguing something similar to it i would argue are in the box. Com interviewer interjects and says these people have not been left behind, they have chosen not to keep up. Which would have been a shocking thing for summit on the left to say before donald trump existed. So i think something about the white workingclass voting for donald trump especially in the republican primary has created a situation where a lot of people would look at people who are suffering especially if they lost their job to free trade and have sympathy. Its now people saying you are responsible for your own suffering. Which by the way is what you would hear about urban blacks. Speech at the way i frame it i believe i am from the left and one very important way which is if i see a group of people suffering social ills, i will never blame qualities all blame the political structure they associated. So i wont call them lazy or weak or dumb. I wont call them racist. I think you have to look at the political structures people operate into understand their decisions both at the individual level and a group level. The left has always rightfully done that with neighborhoods the right says welfare queens and all those things, laziness, just get a job. Addicted to having kids, violence, crime, the left said got a look at the situation where they find themselves in. They find themselves in a neighborhood secondary and everything lets hold off here and stop calling people sub humans effectively. I would say the left would do the same to workingclass white neighborhoods. In some cases they do but many cases they dont. When they look at the problems in a working class neighborhoods, its addictive just like no these people have privilege started this project in 2011 well before any of the trump stuff happen. It only became political because i was in these towns during the election. I remember being in one West Virginia trailer park more a lot of things were going wrong. The family that had done a lot of wrong in their lives. I remember forgot the context but it basically said something about privilege white class working guy, you have a lot of privilege but he just looked at me, looked around and hes like are you f ing with me. And i said really. [laughter] compared to workingclass kid and black kid in milwaukee, i was aye kid and trailer park has privilege perhaps but hes not being told that hes being told that by a sociology student in cornell on twitter. Its just mindboggling that this is where i will criticize the left of what it goes back to you. I think on the belief on the left is that misunderstanding of how much privilege education provides you. I think that is slightly uncomfortable because it makes people in my party feel a little bit like they have more privilege they want to admit. I want to go further than that we say education, one of the big things it actually means is connection. Which is to say, in college read homer, i read greek, lots of things i absolutely loved. Even so my older brothers, went to a much Better College than i did and maybe he learned calculus or Computer Programming or whatever. What helped him as he went to yale. When he dropped out of Philosophy School he had friends that went to yale that helped him get a job. Education is not just who you meet in college but its also learning the code. Talks about this a little bit how to interact how to speak not to get a neck tattoo. All these things that arent explicitly talk to but you absorb through these education. Education what you learned in the classroom code of behavior and its connection. That is the nature of our privilege. Accepting that is uncomfortable. So where the cool kids . Both culturally and economically. With that comes with any club comes these memberships you dont really know you have. I think the bigger issue, there are two of them. One issue talk about the connections theres an africanamerican gentleman, is interesting in the projects in cleveland who had gotten a full scholarship to vanderbilt, back in the 70s. He came to me he said literally she is a derogatory phrase, my mom was a welfare queen, all those things. Thirty years later looking back at the size of what you think about it . He said i wish someone had told me that going to college wasnt about going to college wasnt about studying is making connections. He didnt use the words he didnt have the capital to know what to do in school when he got there. We got 30 studies. He also had the makeup he had a gap because he had a lesser education to prepare him for this. He spent all this time hitting the books where everybody else was forming friendships. Hes like they all came out of the as i commode ds. [laughter] to me, what is most frustrating about where in education divides people. It really allows, we use it now as a way to silence the voice of with the working class. They dont know the right language to speak. Some of it is political correctness, a lot of it is the whole idea im very much contrary to a lot of people on the right which is the whole is the expertise. Youre not allowed to speak on something unless you have a resume that allows you to speak on it. That comes with the right and on the left youre not allowed to speak of is surely used the proper words. That just silences the working class, they cant do it, they cant speak. Very frustrating because some of the topical issues right now are very language sensitive race gender. I have found that the working class has a lot to say about it its not nearly as negative as the educated but assume. They are pretty understanding of getting to this new place where the left wants to go. They dont have the language to express that. These wrong word theyre going to be pounced on. And called uneducated, called dumb racist or sexist, they just give up. So for me its very frustrating because education provides you, you set a language. Very in important its an entry to being heard. Part of my project is that actually let people speak. I try to put the book in their dialogue but them speak without me jumping and correcting them. Again, i really enjoyed that part of the book. Is there a part that i wish you had drilled down on more when it first seemed like a contradiction between your book and alienated america which as i wrote about how the real affliction, the suffering parts of the country it was a lack of things to belong to a lack of places to get connected. I dont mean connections as connections of powerful but connections of your neighbor and belonging. A lot of the book is writing about how sort of even in the rubble, people were finding these connections whether it be you have a picture of a bingo night at mcdonalds which is an amazing sight, and a bible study at mcdonalds. In a crack house. And you say even in if you sheltered the crack asset something to belong to five arguing lack of things to belong to is just because i didnt looked in the right places . Is it a different sort of thing . Trying to scrounge together things to belong to. He look at my book if you read it or know much about me i am the mcdonalds guy, go to mcdonalds all the time. I started this project wouldnt go into mcdonalds and i started saying hang out people who went to all the time for they went to mick free wifi, they had bathrooms, you could just hang out there. I started bending my time hang out and mcdonalds i started seeing friendships forms. Theres a community there. There are morning groups, there are people who who go there before their wedding. [laughter] very devastated towns like gary, indiana, basically the town center. I get is on a sunday one of the few places open and operating you go in there and its like the town square. The old medieval town square and everything is happening. People are playing dominoes, they are romancing their reading, theyre doing everything. So its really funny when i started this project i would meet people at mcdonalds for it i couldnt believe i was seeing so Much Community and mcdonalds. To the point i was in denial where take them at mcdonalds i realize mcdonalds is a story, i would frame it differently think about what mcdonalds was formed as evidence of two things. One is people are desperate for Community Though formant and mcdonalds. If you give i think maybe he went to different places, i went to places where there wasnt anything sometimes about mcdonalds. The desire for dignity people have romantic relationships at mcdonalds. [laughter] part of my argument is the lack, the big part of the suffering, as a lack of trust of your neighbor. Go into town to West Virginia to look at china are others destroying your town i also think there is less social trust and a lot of these places a lot of places are going to be different there still going to be poor places for people where leave their bikes on the front yard. Talk about people protecting the Street Corner with guns, and met guys shot. Theyre not getting shot by outsiders gains of washington lobbyist shooting them. The problem is not the police dogs not police dog and racist white cop cinemark. Its going to beat the social fabric is broke down so much. What they are engaging in for, since sense of meeting is going to be warfare and drugs. So and i have a very different view on this. Period i spent a lot of time in drug houses and around drug dealers. Ive seen a lot of bad things go down. Ill spent 20 years on wall street and seen a lot of things go down. [laughter] to me, it is simply, their legal system. If you screw me over on wall street, im going to lawyer up and sue you. Going to be all very pleasant, you screw me over on a trade, they dont have that option. That is their legal system they cant trust the cops because the cops cant be trusted. They are also doing they are working in the black economy because the illegal economy is available to them. I spend a lot of time around drug dealers if i had grown up in one of those neighborhoods i would be a drug dealer. I think most everybody person i worked in wall street wouldve done the same things the you have so you have the option you have im not encouraging people to sling drugs on the corner. I look at it as a functional system, believe it or not thats working because the system the outside system is not functional for them theyre going to create their own functional system. What i find fascinating is the opposite which is even in the most destitute situation, people form rules and order. Youll be in a drug place and there are rules. They are on written but not there. I find interesting people self organize. So and they create self communities. When people are deprived of it they seek it more, thats what were trying what earlier sometimes it will be drugs sometimes it will be something we might think is better for them i have two more things than we can open it up. So i want to open it up in there something in owning stigma if you get accused of being a dirty drug dealer and have all these negative consequences eventually is a yep thats me. You call me this all the time i might as well be at they own the addiction. You call me a dirty addict okay thats it man youre exaggerating your addiction. Or deplorable. Same thing. Owning the stigma. Couple more things and we go to questions. Something close to race. You talk about, you sort of allowed the one privilege that africanamerican has is that you are allowed to, its fine comments have ethnic identity, racial identity and defined meeting in that. I sometimes wonder if the whites identity comes from a loss of ethnic identity. The carney boys didnt think about walking themselves as white we were irish and american. To say more we had in common with the italian kids and we did with the korean kids is laughable what did we have in common with them . And so if you look at places or people are more likely you ask in their ethnicity the say im american. Not im africanamerican, native american not my nationality is american but what sure ethnicity the cru dutch, africanamerican, a snow and just american. Thats most jet mostly appalachians who are white people who are scott irish. That is where you think you will find a high correlation with that with opioids. With high trumps support in the early primary. That a lack of ethnicity is tied up is tied up with lack of religion and people been seeking some other form of identity which might be whiteness. So i dont think im a good person answer that question. What i would say is, how i saw flipped on its head in a negative way why or blacks allowed to be proud of the race but not us . Thats been said to me specifically. Youre sitting at a bar in applebees at two in the morning and somebody next you says that after eight beers, start time up privilege, social structures. Talk about Cultural Capital, talk about majorities and minorities or you can simply say its the right thing to do. So my answer would be if you identified as polish, no one would hold that against you. I think we still have difficulty their days with irish kids beat up the polish kids who beat up the jewish kids. I think the whiteness is replacing other identities specifically religion. Frenchcanadian american let me get my hyphens right would most likely be trump voters what i will say to this point when i go to my non traditional forms of meeting with faith race. Then theres materialism. You have to choose one of the four. I say one of the three non forms is going to be chosen by people. People with nothing are going to choose something. Unlike the rug in the room. He try to push one down it pops up somewhere else. I personal think race and gent racial identity is the most dangerous one for people to start seeking meaning. For all of the obvious reasons. But my warning has always been to the left and elites if you stop if you keep devaluing faith and place and you keep upping up the ante, making this rat race of building resumes and universities, you are going to get a backlash thats going to go to race. Thats going to happen very quickly. What frustrates me sometimes his racism is malleable it can ban flow. Lewis is a town in maine that is 30,000 people lost its textile mills to mexico and others comic downtown emptied this 99 white and then somalia americans came. Their family was placed there in 98. I spent some time there. I talked to the professor of anthropology said about racism she said racism, she studies this issue shes is one of the things you will see is when someone is visually different, seem to be jumping the queue, jumping the line. Thats when he gave big upswing and racial majority. That night and sitting there, lucent has this members only club. That were organized around the mills. It was a Snowshoe Club was when i went to it was organize our monthly snowshoe races. They were, all the mills would go empty into the clubs. They did not snowshoe race, and the membership i did joint was 1 dollar. [laughter] and for those who think the membership was there to keep africanamerican out, there were africanamerican members in the Snowshoe Club. Anyways im talking to the guy next to me was had a rough life. In his mind he was a vietnam engine vietnam vets. Lame leg, alcoholism, section eight housing, inandout of section eight housing, inandout of homelessness. He is in there drinking, stealing my cigarettes. In getting really drunk. He goes off on a tirade. Really nasty. And the bartender actually stops them he was a trump support and stops him and he says no some mollies are great, stop it stop it on the three well. But the interesting thing was this guy, then only spoke he literally, started losing literally talked about some minds jumping jumping his line for food. He literally saw these people in his mind who were newcomers, he thought they didnt deserve to be there because they didnt fight for the country like he did. They were now making his weight for free Food Distribution three times as long. So why i dont approve of what he said it all, have you got to understand what he mightve gotten there. If we want that not to happen, you need to we need to provide someone like him opportunities veterans not to find easy scapegoats. See when we have time for a few questions we have microphone so please wait for the mic. It will be brought to you. Wherever you picked the microphone will be brought to just quickly identify yourself with your name then ask a question that sounds like a question. Im son of it cuban immigrants and can relate to a lot of the spirit first 20 seizure endgame here . I heard you described your not a journalist, you dont check you listen. Weve done this for eight years, youve met america really, so it is your end goal here . Is it awareness, passion just curious where your minds at . Secondly where is peoples anger directed at. If you asked to interview them is anger directed toward the local senator the state council is a Broad National issues what do you hear . Guest in terms of the first question my wife would like me to it answer that one as well. [laughter] honestly, the project was haphazardly done it was not intended as a real goal. At some time and got motivated by political anger and some people who are routinely disparaged in the press with stereotypes being worthless hookers or what have you. People who are actually wonderful people. Part of the project was to let them tell their stories as i saw them. As worthy as a bond trader is valuable. In terms of what was a second question again . Oh wait the anger is defused. Sometimes its anger at the whoever put the pot hole in the front of your debts not going to be fixed. Sometimes its anger at procedural things in the past, sometimes its immigrants. Theres a tendency to want to punch. The more frustrated you are, the more you want to punch the more masculine you are the more you want to punch. I think the degree of anger at the elites, its a broad sense of feeling like youre being patronized all the time, youre being scolded and told youre done, youre not worthy or being laughed at. Its a real sense of they know and they are convinced that this that people make fun of them, the near times, washington post, justice not get them. They would rather not spend time with them. Its diffused anger and sometimes they dont know where to punch. Its hard to know its hard for me to it know who to punch. When you are that removed from the political process its hard to punch, to know who to be mad at. Steve went let me ask you about your experience i was surprised at how easy it was to get people to talk to me about their life. I would say im a political reporter in from washington d. C. My thought was i should share with them, tell them im coming from, tell them what im doing. There was always a little reluctance they didnt like the word politics and i would say whats it like around here. His soon you have them telling you about their mothers time in rehab et cetera. The thing i tell younger people who do it i want to do you have to get them to start talking. Again ive been in applebees at two in the morning hearing for the fourth time about the wrongs that cause their truck to flip. People want to talk. Even if they wanted trust a guy from brooklyn in the abstract. I think the narrative, i hate that word, where i think the general dominance throughout there is wrong, is this idea that the poor hate the rich. They dont hate the rich. Theyre kinda frustrated they are not there. They view it as aspirational. I think a lot of where the press got trumped wrong was that wealth is understandable. I dont know how to draw made his money and i could make a mocking articles about how as a business failure didnt beat the s p. The guy put big buildings in the air, a lot of people out there understand that. Thats what money is coming exactly what i do. A lot of people i did this silly thing i get the Financial Times and it comes with something called how to spend it. A monthly supplement on how to spend it. Id be in these drug dens and i forget my how to spend it was in my car and in my van. There would be people literally shooting up over how to spend it. So i eventually said, i did this little project id see them flipping through it and id say what you think about this . Have them looking at it and they all loved it. There wasnt what you see and left wing twitter. You see this 50000dollar rolex watch and they would sad love to have that its really pretty. I think people get it wrong. They dont hate it its aspirational its more like i wish i could do that. H1 another question lets go over here. Im also from a finance background. There seems to be at gap in your awareness of whats happening in finance. If youre working in finance he should be aware. This is consolidating brokerdealers bond jobs relocating out of new york, you are actually in the situation, you are just more educated and in a different bracket. But you dont seem to be aware of that. There seems to be a lag. For example, people who are working in the coal industry in West Virginia, they have longterm jobs. If you go in as a bond trader you have basically twentyyear, to bear markets and youre out. They will milk you for everything youre worth youre 22 years old you will be out for you dont suit the bank for that lee cant just lawyer up like youre saying and these people face the same thing you are the same person. Guest im not saying theres not a lot of problems with the banking industry, the way they treat their people is awful. For you in the front office or back office . Its a very different industry in the back office and the mid office in the front office. They treat the back office like crab. Its not a nice industry. Im a journalist and it is a perilous industry to be in. I think the main privilege this conviction and belonging. I think if i got laid off, and there were no jobs in journalism, there are people with money with other things who i could turn to and at least try to land on my feet. That is a lot harder when Everybody Knows in that town and they all lost her job. I come from my experience was at the very, very top. Its a very elite group and nasty group. All right, over on the side. Upfront here. Hi what most surprised you about your interactions with the people you talked with . Your experience what would you say surprised about them . Honestly dont take this as a lesson dont try to do it i did because i am aye guy. I spent most of my time in africanamerican neighborhoods. No one ever tried to rob me, nobody would try to take anything from me unless Walking Around the 5000 cam little scruffier than this, but a 5000dollar camera. And drug houses at two in the morning i walked into abandoned buildings at three in the morning just on a lark because someone said i should go there. Nothing bad happened. People treated me well again its very different for females. Entirely different world out there. In terms of the safety issue and the trust there was a woman by the name of millie who i met on the street at two in the morning she was working the street she was a worker. Back to think or people tell you, i asked her her story, she told me her whole story and i wrote it down and notes. Three years later she passed away and i located her body. Few die in new york without papers, you are put into something called heart island you should google and read about it, its one of the worst things of the world. Just let irish there by the weights of poppers grave. Think 1 Million People are buried there. Then the poppers island since 1865. They put you any trench and bury you. So she died over six months i located her i found she was bx 66, their 66 deaths bronx at that time through this whole process of getting her exhumed improperly buried, i learned a lot about her past. Im not it journalist i dont dig into peoples pasts and lets us to get the buck paperwork to the body exhumed. Its fascinating to me so three years later after this happened, everything she told me at two in the morning, complete stranger in her life was right. When i fact checked it was spot on. Her whole story she had told me she did not lie she did not exaggerate. Again, the honesty of just telling a stranger, and was not a good life it was not something to be proud of. Id say edit individual level people are very decent in the aggregate, not necessarily. That has always been my u. S. Paradox the north is an aggregate friendly and individually not the south is individually friendly and aggregate not. [laughter] are another question, right there. Microphones are behind you. My name is kelly i am wondering are you still traveling to interview people . And my second question is have you ever found the one from the community who found a way out and followed them in their life . Im really curious what you said about not having the right language to fit in the front row. Thanks. I know people my past life as a banker who have done that, played the long odds and succeeded. But on the streets, after three years of my project in the bronx, i ended up i wrote a piece saying the Lesson Learned was nobody got out. There is no happy endings. Shelley is in jail now, just got Text Messages from her so maybe not. Beauty is still doing whatever beauty does, shelley and her moan are still living in a van somewhere. So the very lowest of low i did not find any success stories. But the again i was looking at the very lowest of the low. One of the things is uncomfortable to made to think about why do some people succeed and some dont . There are some people who just make it out. You meet them, there is a young girl at a church or who im pretty sure well make it out. I hope she will. But you could just tell at seven or eight. She was going to leap every hurdle, she was going to do what she needed to do to get out. When i met people like that, on wall street who came from nothing. And they succeeded, they themselves cant really say i new at fort. [laughter] that i wanted to do blank so i dont know what that is. I dont know if its teachable, whatever. But to the question of if im still doing it, ive been taking a break from the u. S. Ive been doing this but in foreign countries. But without a camera. With no real goal other than to just see intellectually. The talk about getting out it reminds me of a conversation i had working on my book with a pastor from prince georges county. He said he has a horrible almost selfcontradiction of wanting people showing up in his community are the most engaged they are most likely to go out and actively love their neighbor. And care about their place. To some extent the place that he is from success is going to try getting out. Hes planted his roots there hes there for life. He does not want that brightest girl to get out. He wants her to be a leader in that community. But if hes caring for her individually he does want her to get out. Isnt that the horrible paradox we are in. Charles murray argued that in 1960 that girl was more likely to stay there and be the principle of the public school. Now if shes doing anything worth her talent and community its going to be getting out. When people ask me for advice on about talking to people, i always tell people if they want to leave, leave. I always say go to college if you want to go to college. Its not my place to tell them not to do it i did. What i do say is if you do go to college dont get into debt. Do it on the cheap. Go to Community College do pell grants, to scholarships. People are going to want to leave, you cant stop them. Again or selling copies of the book outside, crystal be signing them i want to thank you for doing this work it changes the way we see things at the beginning i said im a christian and a catholic, our duty is to love our neighbors and care for the least of these. And that book youve done in telling the stories is a great example of that so thank you and everybody lets thank chris for joining us. [applause] you are watching a special edition of book tv airing now during the week will members of congress are working in their district because of the pan and jet pandemic. Today on after words at New York Times Peggy Orenstein looks at sexual culture and male masculinity. 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