Enjoy book tv, now it over the weekend on cspan2 read. Robert wilson is with us today courtesy of paul and heather hamilton. He is the author of Matthew Brady, portraits of the nation and explore king a biography of clarence kane. He is the editor of the american scholar, a former editor of preservation and the founding literary editor of civilization a farmer book editor empowers we use today in the editor of the Washington Post book world. His essays reviews infections have appeared in numerous publications including american scholar, the american short fiction, the atlantic monthly,ti the new republic, the smithsonian, the Washington Post magazine, and the wilsonn quarterly. And on the opinion and book review of the boston globe three times, yesterday, and the Washington Post. He lives in virginia please give a warm savannah welcome to robert wilson. [applause]. Robert thank you chris, i appreciate that introduction. I hope your app works a lot better than the one done for the iowa caucuses. [laughter]. I trust it. What you probably actually tested it. Thank you to all of you for coming this morning on this cold morning. It is very pleasant to see so many of you care. It is very visit to see cspan air and i want to thank cspan for all it does to support book sculture in america. I am tempted, to say that normally what remains of the culture in america but on a day like today, it is very easy to be optimistic about the state. I love being in savannah, my wife martha and i come here as often as we can pretty relive outside of washington dc we have a place on the panhandle of fflorida. Used to dread the 15 hour drive until we decided that we could stop off at savannah on the way go to the rain for dinner is in a way look forward to the trip very much. As chris said, the third biography i have written. It is not really a trilogy. Not at all. All three books are related to the 19th century figures whose crews resorted of the heights in the middle of the 19th century. In the first flight was developed and explore name parents came. He was dniester when out west. He explored california in its early days pretty people im some of the major peaks in the sierras name some of them including mount whitney. Later he did a survey of the great basin or the Great Western surveys of the 19th century or the people who are attempting him on that survey was very fine photographer named timothy and osullivan had worked with Matthew Brady, the civil war photographer is also a portrait photographer in new york. I was sort of writing about writing and thinking that wasnt really about good book about brady perhaps for a good reason and then i thought i would write one printed in writing turned out to be hard subject because he did not leave a lot of written material. He may have been illiterate actually. Who brady had a studio on Lower Broadway in manhattan. Kind of catty corner across the street from barnums american museum. Which was the biggest tourist draw in the city of new york. Barnum took over what was very kind of a dusty old museum the hannah sort of mineral specimens and things like that. I completely transformed it. And flags flying from the roof and lights, going up and down broadway. Him and that was out on the balcony overlooking the street. The musicians were handpicked to be so bad with they would drive people into the museum. [laughter]. So it was quite a lively place brady the photographer was very successful but i could not help thinking of him as looking and kind of longingly across the street ae barnums museum work o much is going on. And after a while i began looking longingly across the street two. [laughter]. G partly because barnum was in the way, was the subject of sort of everything that brady was not in that he run a wonderful autobiography and he was justrfa lovely writer read he was an exuberant fellow. Brady was thought to be to be full of charm, is kind of bringing people in. And taking them further portraits and making them comfortable. But it was nothing sort of like the boy its largerthanlife character barnum was. So Clarence King led me to brady and brady led me to barnum. One other reason is it possible a trilogy is is probably my last biography for this very reason that i just dont think there is a better subject than barnum. Ive had so much fun spending years with him. Often thinking about are talking about barnum now for six or seven years. And this may be the last time i do that because i want to kind of move on. One thing one of the thing that led me to brady, were to barnum was when i was working at brady, was i went around and talked to maybe 25 different venues about brady i always had a picture slideshow saw showing his photograph. One of them was a photograph barnum. Whenever id introduce the photograph i would be sure to say barnums full name because of phineas, is a slightly amusing name. I never heard of it before. But, there is also i think, something about the way barnum looked in his photograph. It was taken, sort of middleaged. He was a rather handsome man early in his life and his wife are one, but he was very handsome older man. But in midlife, maybe not so much. Im just going to be very brief story to barnum tells about himself and his autobiography which is painted in bridgeport, connecticut very much became a republican from lincoln man. But stephen a douglas came through bridgeport to speak during the president ial n. Campaign. One of his. Friends said, would you know about douglas to which barnum replied, his red nosed clear eyed dumpy swaggering chap looking like a regular barroom loafer rated 2 inches delighted friends responded that that mornings paper had said that douglas was a very image and personal appearance of pt barnum. [laughter]. I think the other reason that when i went to the photograph of barnum, to these various audiences come therewith to bes this court of chuckle. I think people feel like into the stated they know him. On some level and obviously the name Barnum Bailey circus is a name that we have all known throughout her lifetime. And it ended as you know, in 2017. So there is that name and it has carried on our knowledge of barnum to some extent. But think we also think we know him because of one thing from his for the early part of his career as a museum owner, the famous sign up this way to the aggressors youll learn the story innd school. The rest being g the exit, peope at the egress with some fantastic beasts. [laughter]. So they would follow the sign themselves out in the street. [laughter]. And they would have to pay in the quarter to get back into the museum. That story is probablyry true. Ty other story, or the other thing the real thing we know about barnum is that he says the phrase, theres a sucker Born Every Minute. That said story is almost certainly false and it is hard to prove something did h not happen. But barnum wrote, i would take hundreds and thousands of wordsr himself. At least that many probably minimal words were about him. There is no sign anywhere did he ever said it. Bring thought it. During most persuasive argument against is having said that, is the relationship you begin to develop with this with his museum goers and inside his museum was a theater so the more people who would come to go to sort of melodramas he put on there. Later in the circus career, really just the last quarter of his life, he was always very careful about his relationship with his audience. He did not ever overtly exploit them in a way that a sucker Born Every Minute would suggest. After he bought the museum, he spent enormous amounts of money to bring things in from all over mthe world. Wild animals, objects, people of interest, and continued to charge only quarter or maybe twice if you follow the egress sign and half of that 12 and have since, spent for children. In his whole philosophy of this centers on the word that he used a lot called humbug and he called himself the prince of humbug. In todays world, the word among tends to mean somebody who exploits or tricks other people but in barnums usage, and abuse the word and defined it to do what he did which is a thought of humbug as creating some kind of a stir, fighting something to get publicity and get people in the building but the crucial part of the idea of humbug was what you got them in the building or in the tent, they had to get much more than they had bargainedin for. Sophia brought the men under pretext, say remains of a mermaid, which was one of his famous exhibits. Whence they came in, they had to feel that when they are in the museum that maybe this is not really the remains of a mermaid but there are all of these other things here we can see and so people would go away happy. So that to me is one of the really crucial things about how we should be thinking about barnum. Barnum was not perfect however. I have to say that the balance, will he was Wonderful Company always for me. Reading him as a safe and writing him so. It was so witty and he could turn of phrase so well. I always enjoyed being in his company and is often won over by him worried one of the things the main a great character to write about was that he was not perfect. He was very. Imperfect. One of the challenges and one of the things that really made the job interesting day by day for me, was to think about the things that he did in the various contacts. And one is he may have done this but then everybody did it that day this was sort of the historical characteristic and you might think of his treatment of animals which he was very dedicated to bringing exotic animals to exhibits as we have seen is often a grisly process to capture these animals and ship them come up with the understanding of how to care for the month they got to the museum was limited and they were learning all of the time three department did all felton ring handlers for the animals of people who were familiar with how they lived. But it was a process that involved the death of lots of animals. In fact the Smithsonian Institution benefited from this thing that happened so often bent and that barnum would often send the carcasses to the smithsonian pretty have an amazing collection of such things as a result. Today this was an unsavory at best, is a direct reason and one of the primary reasons why the circus the Barnum Bailey ringling circus went out of business when they stopped. They stopped exhibiting elephants, people basically stopped going to thest circus. So this is an example that we have certain values and there were other values of the time. How do you way that into whether or what you think of him. Im not a person who deals with what i would call leaves and presentism then that we have no just sort of state of perfection we can look on insensibly on those who came before us. There are obviously, ways in which our opinions about things have evolved and even if they are far from the state of perfection, they are obviously better than they were. So i i tried to try as hard as i could give him a break on the things that i felt kind related to to the way people thought in his time. I also tryry to think of him though as a man and think about well, was he ever cruel to people. Ase. A rule, i think he loved people. And he treated people very well and many of thed people who worked for him, socalled freaks, were very devoted to him and very grateful to him. He was not very nice to his wife. I dont think that is something that we should forgive out of any sort of historical perspective. He came to from a culture in new england was very much all about practical jokes. He had a wife into her three kids at the time. One of his daughters had died in the interim and he had not come back. He came back without announcing he was coming, he sent someone to tell his wife she must come to the museum to find out some information about barnum. It was clear she wouldve thought he died. Someone got noticeeo of this. She came and there was barnum to greet her and it was a great practical joke on her. I think the cruelty of that is selfevident. Was really a matter of, sort of going through his life in think through these things. Maybe because i am an journalist i seem to be folky on the negative here. He was a person who brought an incredible amount of joy to millions of people. Was dedicated to that as well. And as i say he was just such great company. I think one of the things, and journalist and focusing on theul negative, i would sort of like to talk a little bit about his attitude toward race. One ofin the things it was interesting to me about barnums career or his life as a whole, he lived from 1810 until 1891. A span of the second century almost. One of the things i wanted to tell you that it really admired and came to admire about barnums that he change throughout hisis life i felt. He became a better person. Which is especially remarkable because he had a lot of success early on in his life. He was notorious, he became sort of a character in the newspapers, everything he did people were interested in. He made a lot of money, he lost a lot of that money at one point but made it back. He became quite famous. I think about how few people, who have success earlyar in life, dont feel it is a reward for their perfection as human beings how many people like that actually change and become better through their lives . Barnum had a bit of a problem with the grape, as they say. He began to notice people around him, that he respected were similarly inflicted. He eventually, gave up drink. This is at the age of i would say his late 30s. Unlike all reformed people, he became a great advocate for temperance. One thing that is really not known very widely about barnum as he became one of the really most in demand temperance speakers of his day. Kind of on a par with kerry nation. He gave hundreds of free temperancet speeches. In fact later in his life, he would go out with the circus, when the circus was on the road, he would often schedule temperance speeches because he was in a town he had never been in before. Finally his partners asked them to please stop doing that because so many people were going to his speech rather than going to the circus. It was perching the intake there. That was one way in which she changed. His religious faith, he was a universalist. He was very opposed to sort of hard core religion and very opposed to, this is the days of the great revivals. And very opposed to any Movement Towards confusing the roles of church and state. At the age of 21 he started a newspaper for the very purpose of fighting the idea of religious party developing with connecticut at the time. Im getting pretty far away from race, i will get back to it. As a result of his temperance speaking, he got to know a lot of the famous preachers of the day and they became great friends with him. Many of those were abolitionist. They had an effect on his growth. One of the things that got barnum into the public eye, and in some way fueled the reputation that barnum has to this day one of the other ways we know the name barnum is often the ones group you loose person who i wont name, achieved high office in this country, people would immediately slap the barnum label and it would not be a complementary label. I think you can trayce this back to his first acts that he became involved in. He did a lot of things in his teens, 20s, 30s he started the newspaper, he ran lotteries, he had dry goods stores, he worked in dry goods stores. When he was in early 30s, he felt his lifes work should somehow have to do with being a showman and exhibiting acts. He at the time ran a boardinghouse and a store in new york city. He read in the paper about an act that was on display in philadelphia and indeed a Person Associated with the act came into the store and talk to him about it. The act wast a blind slave woman was purported to be a 161 years old. Who further claimed to be the nursemaid of george washington. She would go around andab tell stories about Little George they would also sing ancient hymns that no one had ever really heard of before. By the way, i love this perspective. I feel maybe i would into the wrong business. At. [laughter] but barnum hurried up hurried down to philadelphia from new york to see this woman, joyce, was favorably impressed with the fact that she could be quite old. She never admitted throughout his life as he often did about other things he did, that he suspected she was not 161 years old. The Life Expectancy for aye woman at that time was about 40. I would day agenda dirty say for slave woman it was last. She was blind, kind o of crippled one of her arms would not move. But her tongue moved very well. She spoke up in a strong voice. So barnum decided that the people who she was supposedly owned by a person in kentucky. Some other people paid him for the right toth exhibit her but they wanted to get out of that business. So barnum made the offer, brought her to new york after kind of creating a buzz in the newspapers and began toeg exhibit her. And it went over very well. He took her through a tour of new england and at one point, when he got to boston, he became acquainted with the man displayed on tomtoms, creation sort mechanical because someone might be in a box under this stage would seem to talk and respond to questions. S. Had occurred to him because the crowds had begun to fall off for her to plant a story in the i newspaper saying she was in automaton that she was made out of india robert and gadgets and stuff like that. This sorta became a typical ploy for barnum. When he had an act he would either create a conflict counter argument about the person or whatever is on display. And then sort of challenge audiences to come and see for themselves. If it was something in his museum they might want to go in and see this act. Then he encourages to come back and see it again. I do think if you look at the length of his career, one of the things he knew he was doing, who is not only bringing people in who had lived lives there pretty isolated. When he was born the telegraph had not been invented, the photograph, the railroads were not running, and throughout his lifetime, people who lived in small villages he was, began to have more access to the world at large. I think one of the things barnum did through his museum and exhibits was bring that world to people who were eager to know more about it. One of the things i think he was doing was challenging people come and looking you make a decision. So that was sort of the petite part of this. In the case of joyce, it seems pretty awful. Joyce was exhibited for a few more months, came and died barnum had had an arrangement with the surgeon in new york, to do an a autopsy of her. The surgeon had been eager to show it had been a hoax. So barnum rented a big venue, advertised and charged admission for this autopsy. Pretty awful. He invited preachers and people like that to come. As it turns out surgeon found that all of organs were in good shape except her lungs. She died of tuberculosis. He felt she could not have been more than 80 years old. This did not slow down barnum at all, he continued he was not at all chagrined that this was the case and continued to get various kinds of publicity. This is a barnum to me at is worse for theresnu other instances where he had racial views that were terrible. His connection with the preachers in the temperance movement, this wife was against slavery, he became more and more of an b abolitionist. D he became a republican, lincoln supporter through the civil war, he was very pro union. Did a lot of things in the museum like exhibiting, there is an exhibit of the hero of charleston, the union hero of charleston whose name i am forgetting, robert, i know i know it. Anyway. He did a lot of things to support union cause. After the war he ran for the legislature in connecticut. He said he wanted to do that for thisll purpose of voting for the 13th amendment which abolished slavery. Who did that is what is first acts of legislature. He also gave a sort of dramatic, widely publicized speech in favor of giving the vote to African Americans in connecticut. Whichd he argued in terms we would not find particularly noble today. He was very much in favor of that. It did not happen for many more years in connecticut. Eventually, the 14th amendment superseded that. I make a case in the book that he became more enlightened about race. People in the reviews have pointed out that in 1860 at a point where i am arguing exhibited my little person, 4 feet tall, black man who weighed about 50 pounds as the missing link between Charles Dickens book had just come out on the species in 1959 this was 1860 he started exhibiting this man, johnson, he put him in a pursuit, it was just awful. One of the things that was interesting was when he was teexhibited there be aye man out sfront telling his story and telling how hed been found in africa or something. In the background, this man would sorta be mocking the white sky insane and dont really believe this. This is not really whats going on. Sort of meta in some way i guess. And barnum clearly not only permitted it but encouraged it. Barnum ended up building ap house for this man in bridgeport. They were friends for the remainder of barnums life. He went on to be exhibited, to be seen by 100 Million People into about 1920. Thats another one that is sort of hard to sort of think about. I will leave you with one click image though. Barnum life is about the late 1870s, the late 1880s, he and bailey, james bailey who is the genius behind the circus, took the circus to england. They exhibited it was showed in a big building called olympia in kensington. It was a huge building that had room for the three rings, the big track that went around it, then at the beginning of each days performance, there were two performances a day. Barnum would get into a fancy carriage with footman and matched team of horses. He would go slowly around the ring. He would stop every so often, stand up and say you want to see barnum . Im barnum hes supposed to have said i am mr. Barnum any tip his hat and everyone in the crowd, the women would believe their handkerchiefs and men would tip their hat back. I looked very much was pointed out by a member of the royal family who looked a lot like, who didnt turn off his phone . It was i. And it was a triumphal moment he was much loved. Atat w the end kinda 1860s, or 1870s after Ulysses Grant left the presidency he went on a twohe year tour of the world promoting the united states. When he came back, barnum saw him and said mustve been wonderful, you are the most beloved americans it can go to the world. He said no bart of you had it all over me. Everywhere it went, people asked me if i knew barnum. I will stop and if there are questions. [applause] what was the most apprising thing that you learned about barnum . Guest i guess it was to learn he was really a better person that is reputation. I guess that is the thing. Yes. You touched on how many of us have used perhaps simplistic picture of barnum to label certain prominent political figure. I would like to turn that around and hear from you how the current status of american politics and american Popular Culture might havevi informed your view of barnum . Guest thats a great question. One of the reviews, theres actually a piece in thect new yorker about my book that matt and jen made the case i had completely unaware of it was going on politically in thisis country while i was writing the book. I tried very hard not to, to do that. One of the people who wrote a very good book about barnum called humbug, i read it to when i started in on this. He gave me his blessing and said every generation, barnum deserves a new book in each generation. Little did he know i was not that much younger than he was. [laughter] so im aware that my own beliefs, political beliefs, other beliefs informed the book. You know, there are certainly times in the book or i said a modern sensibility has to struggle to understand barnum in the situation. I tried to think my way into the 19th century in certain ways, but to apply my own judgment about right and wrong. I do think one thing that came out of the reviews is the question that i mightve been negative today but in the course of the book whether i gave barnum to much credit. In fact the New York Times book review referred to me as barnum is a wing man. [laughter] i understand barnum soon after his wifes death married a 23yearold. [laughter] to joe something to do withwi that . [laughter] guest he had been married 47 years to his wife. I think they were very much in love early on. Barnum spent an incredible amount of time on the road. I think later, may be get away from her i do not know. Early on they were separated a lot. She discovered she hated toy travel. One of the ways, the whole family was cruel tohe her because they made fun of her when she did travel and they imagined a disaster was about to happen or would be terribly seasick. Think they had grownnky apart. He did hide this marriage, which actually happened on valentines day in, i cant even think what the year wouldve been. And then he brought her back in the following september they had a Church Wedding and it was announced. It was still pretty soon, his wife had died in november. Anyway, think of your question. Guest one question te people tend to ask me is what would barnum think about twitter . I think he wouldve loved it. He was a genius at using newspapers by sort of writing unsigned squibs himself which would just be printed word by word. He was enthusiastic advertiser and newspapers. In that way he got the attention of editors who became his friends. He also, one of the ways in which he replenished his museum that a couple of major fires in this museum. The next day he would get up and start telegraphing around the world he was in touch with people all over the world to bring new exhibits. Then of course later with the circus, the genius of moving a circus which is essentially a small city and setting it up elsewhere as a matter of a couple of days. It was all baileys genius but barnum and braced. He embraced the new technology such as they were. I cant imagine he wouldnt be all over twitter and making as much publicity as he could. I thinkll im allowed to ask a question two. What prompted you to start writing books and can you tell us a little bit more about clarence kellyanne Matthew Brady . I was interested in that it never got a chance to ask you that. Guest ive been an editor and newspapers and magazines. Ive done some writing. I wanted to, at a certain point i decided i either n needed to write a book or stop thinking about it. Clarence king was a man i beat came too know it the wonderful book name Patricia Otoole called the arts its about Clarence King and henry adams they had a very interesting lives in the book, they were all very intellectual people, people from the east. And in the book, patty otooles book, king would blow in from the west all sunburned, is a very handsomeit guy, everybody seemed to be in love with him male and female. And i thought this is a really interesting subject, there should be a book about him. So i kept telling my writer friends you really need to write a book about Clarence King. Hesct a really great character. A friend of mine who used to work for the New York Times, said a wise thing once that ive never forgotten which was you just cant give away a good idea. And part of, what makes a good idea good is your own enthusiasm for it. So eventually i just said well im gonna write it myself. So i didid that. As i said at the beginning of that book led me to it Matthew Brady and with both the king book in the barnum book, i was very lucky there had been very, very good academic biographies about both figures so they helped me out. The biographer of a barnum named Arthur Saxton is still live and was extremely generous to me. I wrote himim a text yesterday and set after today, barnum will be his again. [laughter] but brady was a different character. As i said theres not been a good book about him there so not a lot of paper on him. And so a lot of it had to do with looking at the photographs, with him theres a big question of what is a brady photograph he ran a studio and sent people out to take the photographs but they were called photo by Matthew Brady. Was that very different kind of challenge to write about brady. I was wondering if you saw the greatest show man movie and what you thought of it . Oh im sorry, i did see the movie, i actually agreed to write something for the daily about all the little ways the movie didnt quite get barnum rights. But i came out of movie so enraged. [laughter] i could not write a lighthearted piece so i did not fulfill that. That struck me they were so many ways, the whole question of presentday sensibility versus sensibility of the times, the sensibility of that movie is so hollywood, 2018 or whenever it came about 2017 . I just felt, the thing that offended me the most is like big shocker halley John Hollywood does a movie and doesnt get history right, thats never happened of course. That struck me as being perverse because of barnum was so much more interesting than the character that came out in the movie. And just the wholean thing, hugh jackson and Trent Jackman had to dance, one of the people he exhibited was a famous opera singer called jenny lind and they traveled around the country together. At one point jenny lind on new years eve try to pull barnum out to sit idle dances that go come on barnum you can dance. After he tried dancing for a little bit she said i do believe you are the worst dancer ive ever seen. So i feel quite sure he never dance again but hugh jackson is always dancing. And anytime you think that happens in the movie, they are there having a drink to celebrate. Since barnumum was a great temperance person that would not have happened. Those are just small things. Anyway, my wife liked the movie. [laughter] guest thank you very much. [applause] [background noises] you are watching a special edition of book tv airing now during the week while members of congress serve their districts during to the coronavirus outbreak tonight a look at pandemics. First the National Institute of health of jeremy brown provides a history of the 1918 flu pandemic and his thoughts on how prepared pr for the next major outbreak. Then there is a discussion on viruses from the 2016 book of festival. And later john barry ask describes the flu pandemic that killed as many as 1 Million People worldwide. Enjoy book tv now and over the weekend on cspan2. See maxie pan has round the globe coverage on the pandemic its all available on demand at cspan. Org coronavirus. Watch white house briefings, updates from governors and state officials, track the spread throughout the u. S. And the world with interactive maps watch on demand any time, unfiltered at cspan. Org coronavirus. [background noises] well good evening everybody. Once again welcome to books and books thanks for joining us this evening and supporting your local bookstore we appreciate you being here for anybody has a cell phone or anything else is going to ring outsourcing out if you could put it to the silent position wed