Out a Young Readers book called the fierce 44 . Guest look, for the undefeated, our platform, which focuses on race, sports and culture, we have done a digital project in 2017 that was kind of an ode to the first africanamerican president , hence the title of the fierce 44. So we had this idea lets do kind of an all my to an argument i think is the greatest achievement for africanamericans to become president. And youll should be on that list next we did a a list. It was a Interactive Digital process and it was well received, highly debated. And then mr. Flynn hardcourt publisher, said could you turn this into a Childrens Book . Because there are not a lot of africanamerican biography that that shone with that was popular, childrens biography collections and so they loved robert ball had his beautiful illustration and so we edited our digital project entered into a book. Host was the format of this book . Guest its basically a short bio sketches with a couplp with illustrations. It just gives you enough, give kids enough so they can learn about the tremendous africanamerican achievers, and just absorb some of the inspiration and greatness of black americans have contributed to this country. Host you make it your editor and part of espn . Guest part of espn. We launched it in may 2016. It was the idea of our former president of espn john skipper, and it was the idea that here we have a Digital Product that really could serve a really loyal over indexing black audience on digital. And meanwhile helped espn with, bring your own aesthetic and sensibility to espn where race, sports and culture intersect. I think sports now is very much about culture, too. And so that came about and i was at the Washington Post as you and i knew each other, and after a lot of debate i was presented with this opportunity and and i decided to go in and give a shot come simply have a start up at you spin turn you are managing editor at the Washington Post, and how much debate happen in your family before you guest a lot of debate, particularly my wife. But sometimes you just disrupt your own career. I mean, i want to do something different, take a little bit of a leap off of that cliff and try something different. I decided to do that and its been fantastic. Host just to be clear, why 44 biographical sketches . Guest it was a play off the 44th president. You know, he was exiting the white house and we said well do 44. Originally called the undefeated 44, so these were our selection, our staff selection, and there was a lot of fierce debate. You can imagine because there are many, many more than 44 great africanamericans. We dont dont say this is the greatest black achievers ever. We dont try to put that these are just a 44 that we looked at that fit the sensibility of the first africanamerican president , in the sense that heres something, they did something pioneering, something disrupting. They were in some cases, i say noisy geniuses or quiet innovators, but they did something extraordinary in their own space. It was, believe me, peter, it was knockdown, drag out debate among our staff and we kind of did it kind of democratically where if you come to get on the list you had to convince the group that this person should be on the list. And if you were going to add someone, you had to say then, who are we going to take off . It was a lot of back and forth and a lot of people were left off but i think a lot of great people on this list. Host what do you want Young Readers to know about barack obama decides being the first black president . Guest well, its interesting. I was at the nba allstar weekend in chicago and happen to have come be at an event that my colleague at espn was hosting and have barack obama was there with chris paul and kevin love and it was to discussion about what athletes do and how they use their influence on issues. It was reminder of how, what someone like obama does to elevate the discussion. He was interacting with the athletes and you could just watch the athletes in the sense of thinking more deeply about how they could influence and use their own power for good on and social issues. Fascinating discussion. I do think look, its hard to be, president. I dont care who you are. Were watching that now. Its really difficult, a a long journey comes to be the first African American to do is a signature achievement that many people thought they would never see in their lifetimes, and so thats always dance at the top of the mountain. Host the majority of the profiles in the fierce 44 are not athletes. Guest we have six athletes and so, and even those, there are people who were left out but i think the athletes that we do have in the list, serena williams, simone biles whose argument the greatest gymnast ever. You know, i think she is the greatest gymnast ever, just record wise. Michael jordan who kind of, not only was he the first, he was the first black athlete outside of o. J. Who really kind of set a model for how athletes could do in business. And represent big corporate brands. And he had a style, and a kind of swagger in addition to his highflying ability. So there are a lot of reasons why various people got picked, and we could say theres a lot of great athletes. Hank aaron just not on the list, for instance, and he could easily been on that list. But i think the athletes we do have are amazing. Host who is not in the book that you personally wanted in the book . Guest well, i dont know. I think host or did all your choices get picked . Guest no. They didnt. Some people that it argued for, i dont think there was much argument. But i think, ali, some people obvious. All he i was an obvious one. Thurgood marshall was one of my favorites because i think Thurgood Marshalls contribution to really breaking the back of jim crow through the legal system and traveling dark roads and really going into allwhite courtrooms and really doing under death threats. It was really important to have the legal dimension while everyone else was out in the streets and protesting and doing sit ins. He was one of my favorites to be on that list. I think argued for jessie jackson, as a forerunner to barack obama. He kind of first set the idea that it was possible to a lot of people didnt want to run for president , and also as a great oratory and some of who inspired many generations to have hope and faith. There was a lot of debate. People were getting knocked down and added on, and it was very spirited. Host you are the coauthor of a a book on Justice Clarence thomas. Was he considered for this the fierce 44 . Guest he was raised, too. And as a Supreme Court justice he certainly was someone who was raised. There were a lot of people who were raised. I think that we were mindful also of not trying to make these choices based on ideology or based on factors that, hey, this person was isolated from the race. We tried to look at achievement and what was done. Obviously with 44 youre missing a lot of people, you know. Tiger woods is not on here. You know, i think Louis Armstrong is another debated. Host but Duke Ellington is in here. Guest yes. Part of the process was we thought about, we do want to have it overly weighted with civil rights or activists because you couldve filled the entire book there. We were sensitive to whats missing. Like i probably think we added people, Richard Allen is in there. In part because certainly religion is such an important founder of the ame church, religion is so important to black communities, and still is, and churches have played such a role. We couldve probably had more religious figures. At some point i think i may have raised we dont have enough religious figures. Military, davis, a decorated general is in there. Host first africanamerican general. Guest thats right. And so that was a nod to the fact of our contributions to the military and fighting and defending his country. Host theres a connection between jessie owens and Benjamin O Davis who both served or operated during that same time. But thinking back to the u. S. To a different come to the same old world. Guest to the same old world, and jessie owens and many of those other olympians from the 1936 olympics came back and were not treated and welcomed in the way that we are accustomed to olympic champions being welcomed. Host in fact, jessie owens you write returned home to the oppression of jim crow, working at basically menial jobs like racing horses and pumping gas. Guest yeah. Just kind of a sideshow. That was a really tragic outcome for somebody who had essentially was regarded as defeating hitler, you know, and really embarrassing hitler in the games in germany. Host i wanted to ask, who was Robert Abbott . Guest he was a great newspaper editor. The chicago defender was one of the, the most important publication in america for black americans over time, and it really during a period when chicago where there was a migration, chicago and really nationally really being kind of a beacon for truth and leading the way. So Robert Abbott definitely deserved, and, of course, journalism so we have to have some journalism representation. Host what was the importance of the defender and is the important . Guest i think black newspapers at the time were really, i mean, africanamericans were not working at the white papers. This is where we got our news. There was like the amsterdam news and, of course, the afroamerican, other papers around the country for black papers. They were out covering the civil rights movement. Covering injustice, and many of those reporters that were going down in the deep south were just like thurgood marshall. They had to figure out how to stay in places and file their stories, you know, in dangerous places. So they were also under threat, had to do their work under threat. I think they were really important, the black newspapers in chicago, the defender standing above all as leaders in the civil rights movement. Host what was the toughest part about transitioning from the Washington Post and politics into sports and politics for you . Guest look, i was a sports fan. I follow sports closely. Was managing editor, i oversaw the news, features covers, that include the Sports Department come have written a lot about sports as a feature writer. I felt comfortable in the sports world, didnt feel too out of place there. The biggest difficulty, transition, you at a place like the Washington Post which is so new centered, and you know, was going to start a essentially that did not have a culture, did not have, we had to build everything from the ground floor. When you are starting something new, you were encountering all kinds of challenges that go along with that. And, when he was a great transition. Host why is it called the undefeated . Guest will, its based off of a maya angelou quote, the we may encounter many defeats but we will not be defeated. That sometimes you need to suffer defeat to know what you can become. It was really i think both from a sports standpoint and a race standpoint really kind of came together as an ideal. I mean, sports, you know, our kids lose, we hug them. Theyre going to lose a game and we let them know this is not the end of the world, there will be another opportunity. Just the resilience of what black americans have done in this country, their resilience and triumph over obstacles kind of reflected in that quote pics of the undefeated felt good. Host as you mention that are six athletes featured in the fierce 44. Our athletes inherently role models . Guest you know, i think whether they want to be or not they are for many people because they play in public. They are out doing their work in public and they interact with fans and fans watch them and people come money to see the games. So kids look up to them, you know . Because many kids grew up playing sports and the wish that they could become serena williams. Look at coco goff now. Shes lighting up dennis and she was inspired by serena williams. Naomi osaka was inspired by serena williams. You see that kind of pipeline, and so i think athletes, you look up to them and you want to become them and so they are a role model. Host what about Colin Kaepernick . Was he considered for this book . Guest you know, i think, yeah, there was a discussion about kaepernick and i think that certainly at a point in time, you know, he has become a symbol for activism for black athletes now, and certainly sacrificed his career in order to make a point about Police Brutality and oppression, racial injustice. So i think that somebody was kind of the modern day, you know, ali to sacrifice something, at least we seen that way by many people, you do, he was definitely considered. Host kevin merida, there were two people in this book i never heard of, im ashamed to say. One was John Michelle basket. Guest yes. Well, he was really kind of like avantgarde painter. He really was, and right now some of his paintings are i think, his paintings were up there at the highest resale value now turkey died young and he was somebody that, like some young geniuses, they die too young and you never know what they could have become. But even him, we kind of put in as a disruptive because the raw a lot of other artists and in a couple people on our staff, im going to call jessie washington. He thought there should have been other notable painters or others that were more deserving of being an artist. I think all should be considered. The achievement, success was important. There were a lot of factors. We didnt have a scoresheet. It was just a debate. Host the other one i had not heard of. Doctor charles drew. Guest he is a pie in the air in medicine. In nashville. He represents the importance of medical discovery and the contribution there and the way we thought about that was charles drew is somebody, a lot of people, many people in the realm of scientific invention and discovery. Host who do you hope reads this . Guest kids, i hope parents read it with their children and everybody, kids of all races and ethnicities, black americans shook the world, i hope kids everywhere do that. Host beautiful illustration. Guest robert ball, an artist we contracted with. Host kevin merida is editor in chief of the undefeated and one of the authors of the fierce 44 black americans who shook up the world. Guest thanks for having me. You are watching a special edition of booktv airing during the week, while members of congress are in the district due to the coronavirus pandemic. Tonight, life in america. American Enterprise Institute scholar michael strain argues the future is bright for those who want to become successful in the united states. The washington examiners tim carney has thoughts on why the American Dream is less attainable today and later Pulitzer Prize winning journalist nics