People are here when you say i wonder if i am irredeemable to hear all white people and white people as individuals as opposed to whiteness as an identity. So when i go to the second paragraph, what if we took this identity apart that people would not have the different history but a different relationship to identity. And potentially have as a consequence a more humane relationship to each other. So later into the first paragraph an individual someone that was raised by a white man or someone take for example john brown or bob zellner. Who i think are the most precious people in the world but its important to me not to have a formulation that removes them from my sense of the struggle that i am engaged in. So thats what i was thinking. One more question about breathe, mothering black boys in america is a special calling. Yes. Thats the sentence my mother said to me. And i think about it in a number of different ways. One of course is all the risk so people talk about it incessantly and some ways that is difficult and maybe not necessarily helpful about the challenges that black boys face in this world whether mass incarceration or inequality your College Attendance rates. I think about it differently. I think not that there are not true but wanting to raise my children who identified as black boys, and a way that does not delimit their imagination or sense of possibility and to understand the facts of racial inequality , that kept the one keeps them thinking they are superior because they are relatively privilege to black people and other people generally and also what keeps them away from seeking patriarchy or dominance in a society that values those things highly so thats more more elusive for black men to attain with a society that values that and that for me to raise them to not value that but to value their characters and complexity and sensitivity and no matter the walk of life that they come from so all that is a special calling because what it means to be a man are acrosstheboard including things that are not so good and what blackness is that unless you counter both of those with a story that is more accurate begins a much greater capacity to be fully human. In the last 19 minutes everything weve talked about are these the things that you teach at princeton . Not really. This is a departure for me it is the spirit with which i teach but i tend to teach much more fact and material driven but i do think of teaching as a calling so it is important to bring to that values and humanity and justice and love to the students even im supposed to be less passionate. Had you get a phd and jd from harvard at the same time . Unwisely. [laughter] when i graduated from college in 21 years old i was just completely in love with life and the mind and ideas and i didnt want to choose and i wanted to do everything i will go graduate school and law school then did two years and took my orals and first year of law school, it was a frenzied pace, but it was beautiful and amazing for me and i loved it. I learned so much. And every day i was being nurtured by generations of people that came before me to help me understand the world. We want to play a little bit of music in a little bit of video from 1999. Of course that is betsy norman singing at the rosa parks congressional Gold Medal Ceremony 1999. What is that song . It is lift up their voice that the National Anthem and the black National Anthem after the 1970s and it is a song that ia describe as black mans most precious song. And just that clip of rosa parks and jesse norman who is recently departed is moving. You wrote about the biography of the song maybe forever stand and those that were born in Jacksonville Florida and then back in the day and then to become the first secretary general of the naacp the first black man to make it there which is extraordinary in the signature accomplishments and what are the first generation freeman . The mothers family was not enslaved since the became instant fathers from virginia but yes they were of that generation that emerged from slavery at the end of reconstruction. Host what was the reception in 1900 . What is extraordinary is the song caught on like wildfire. And then immediately embraced as an anthem of black america. I try to detail in the book that the United States did not have a National Anthem at this moment so people were referring to it as an anthem the johnson brothers were educators at the time of the composition and they left florida and went to work as songwriters because they were in a terrible fire in the city so actually they werent there as the song caught on and it caught on with schoolchildren black women recirculated it it was printed in the back of hymnal hymnals, it was an anthem of a community they didnt describe it as an anthem they did not intend to that but they said this is the anthem. If we continued playing the video then we would have seen president clinton singing. Yes. It is one of those distinctions he may only be the us president. From your book maybe forever stand hiphop under the farewell to the black National Anthem. One of the things i talk about in my first book is there is something that happened in the seventies and eighties which is a transformation of black social and political life with the kind of Civic Engagement and association and the industrialization. And there was the piece who says may he rest in peace they have the moral conscience of the nation hiphop is a refusal of that position it is bold, its not formal and not unwilling to perform as a reveling which is commonplace in American Culture but its a different kind of public present so that departure was significant but i also talk about that the song keeps coming back there have been various moments where it felt like it would peter out completely but it keeps coming back even though the kind of institutions and communities in which it was song on a weekly and daily basis dont exist the same way and black communities. Can you draw a direct line to Biggie Smalls and Langston Hughes . Absolutely. Because in so many ways both took the beauty of vernacular language to craft it with the decision to tell stories that were pointed and often had political content and resonated deeply and was a pleasure to listen to and engage with there were different kinds of political subjects and to be an overly an activist and organizer but the relationship to black language and those are directly connected but the process by which it became the most popular form in the country and have an audience that has the core audience because from the very beginning of what postindustrial life in the United States and all of the complexity. It is not to meconium to the hood. Hiphop is not it is an exploration of it. Host you use the term mc. What does that mean . It is the word for wrapper that is a little more organic to hiphop. Initially it comes from master of ceremonies but others spell it phonetic like rapper but the relationship between the rapper and the dj on the producer. And these are in turn all hiphop and then also what made the mc good. But what did that consist of two have that literary analysis of the profits of the hood but that opposition to whiteness that it was part of the art forms conscious and before i go into this a lot has changed since 2004 that describe at present but there is a overt play with the black people as thugs. Of criminality and access and gangsters and violence and hiphop and satirically and critically and to play with that social reality charlie you are on book tv new york go ahead. Caller i have grown and i have seen the world is a very complex situation. I dont support black nationalism is just as much as fascism right in trumps face. But black people are just people they are not inferior or superior. And black nationalism is just as bad as White Nationalism i cannot understand why imani perry supports black nationalis nationalism. I am not a black nationalist. I am far left what it takes on many different faces that are conservative brands of black nationalism that are actually quite aligned. With political conservativism. With the nation of islam and then to advocates like the black Panther Party or the Student Coordinating Committee with the third World Politics and anti colonialism to identify and colonize people across the world. So the single term but i disagree with the equivalent that people try to find a way to build a sense of control and that is not the same but thats not a designation i would subscribe to. Host you say you are far left . And im against economic exploitation and everybody should have access to safe environment, schools, clean water, living wage, healthcar wage, healthcare, we live in this extraordinarily wealthy country and we should not have children who are poor. We shouldnt have People Living on the street. I dont think that the narrative is a consequence of economic vulnerability and we should be okay. Thats not a decent way to organize society. I dont think people are poor because they are deficient but because they are exploited and have lack of opportunity. So the question is much as i write and think about right one race, its never separate from the large question of the distribution of suffering in our society. As an example of how society was organized but my objective is not for black people and with that sense of domination to have that robust democracy that is only possible with a decent quality of life for all people in society selling over 15 million copies of her books she joined us to talk about them. Host you suggest that Justice Kavanaugh should read the newest book spark of light. Why is that quick. Its probably one of the most balanced looks at abortion rights and womens reproductive rights that i have found i worked really hard to make it balanced and i think it would allow him to see other peoples points of view with compassion and protect roe v wade a little longer. Host you say all points of you are represented. House so . The book is actually about a shooting at a reproductive rights clinic some states only have one clinic left because over 200 laws at the state level have chipped away at reproductive rights since 2012 so in my book the gunman comes in and start shooting and kills patients and hostages and then takes the rest hostage. One of the people he takes hostages a 15 yearold daughter of the Hostage Negotiator on the outside and the people in the clinic are a wide range of people. They all believe very Different Things about reproductive rights those that are prochoice and prolife and they are accurately represented. Host how do you storyboard a story like that . With all of the connections and things going on. That is a particularly difficult question because it makes it difficult than the others because its told in reverse the very first thing you see is the standoff between the gunman and the negotiator then the chapter each goes back one hour in times of what you learn is what brought all of these Diverse People to the clinic at that moment. That was much harder than i anticipated. I wrote a 48 page outline because i had to ride it chronologically in reverse but also had to follow the storylines of ten diverse characters. I have never written an outline like that mostar three pages long, i know my characters and the plot and the twist because i want to leave a trail but this was so much going on it was so complex i really needed to map it out the real magic was not the outline but the editing. When i edited i took posted flags and marked up the whole book by character. That i edited in reverse ten different times each characters thread to make sure each story was coherent and then edit it entirely going forward. Host how long did you spend in mississippi . Between jackson and alabama with a doctor who was an africanamerican Abortion Provider who also identified as a devout christian and says he performs abortions not in spite of his religion but because of it he heard a sermon about the Good Samaritan who will provide for these women if not me so now he goes all over the United States to the most underserved areas so do have cover input . And that is not the original cover for spark of light. I like the covers all things might want them to confuse it. So the art director came back with that so that caught my eyes. Talk about small great things i expect we will talk about. So i look at the color chips if you look at the covers were there is something not quite right about the color. So small great things is about racism in america and that was such a beautiful illustration of what we try to talk about. Host are you kennedy . I think any white person is kennedy. So that book looks of a real life incident in flint michigan an africanamerican nurse 25 years of experience in labor and delivery help deliver a baby and in the aftermath the babys father said she doesnt want her anyone that look like her to touch his kid and pushed up his sleeves and showed a swastika tattoo. So in the hospital there was a postit note in the file to say no africanamerican person can touch the baby. A bunch of personnel banded together and sued i hope they got a great payout. But what if that nurse was the only one alone if something went wrong and as a result she was brought up on charges of murder and what if she was defended by a public defender that never considered themselves to be a racist and the voice of the white public defender began to unpack her own feelings about race. To me small great things is meant to say open your eyes a little wider its easy for people to point to a white supremacist to say thats a racist its a lot harder to point to themselves to say the same thing. But yet race is about prejudice and power if you are white you hold all the power. Although its easier for us to see it if you are a person of color your life might be a little bit harder and harder for white people to acknowledge the challenge of racism and there are unearned benefits just because we are born like this and that is something that is for white people to fix ultimately thats not the reason i wrote the book but that the audience i was hoping for. You in 26 books oil bestsellers . Not by any means. I did not have that overnight oprah moment the first book had 3500 copies that was it but i think what happened people who read my books told their friends they should read this and it grew very organically after my sisters keeper the Second Glance got onto the bestseller list by itself. Host how quickly was my sisters keeper option for the movie . Not quickly at all it took a while. It was not a pleasant experience. [laughter] did it adhere to the book . You have not seen the movie. [laughter] know it is not. When that book was optioned i said the only thing i will say if they keep the ending because it has a monstrous twist i know that sold the boat peoples that i cant tell you what happens just read it so we can talk about it. So the producer that option the book thats how he got it and they asked me if i would talk to him and i said yes and i told him the ending is really important to me he read the book and said i will not change the ending if anybody does i will tell you why and i will tell you myself. I thought okay then i worked with him for a year and a half he would call me and ask me questions about character and then one day i got an email from a fan who worked in the casting agency and said did you know they change the ending of the movie and i called nick at home he would not take my call and went to the movies that he threw me off i went to the head of New Line Cinema and said you will lose money because i have some pretty eager and ardent fans that are rock stars and they will not to want to see this movie and he said we know we are doing. He made the notebook for us and sure enough they lost money on the film i fans were very upset and ultimately the great irony is money speaks i said you will lose money and they did and now as a result of that experience i have more Creative Control of future projects. Host do you have any creative onto option that . No. Most writers do not if you do have Creative Control that is the anomaly because normally what hollywood will do if you want Creative Control we dont need that thank you very much we will go to another author who will take the money and run so its like giving the baby up for adoption you try to make an educated choice and do the best you can but you cannot call every day in say did you feed her breakfast. Host small great things has been optioned. I hope we will have a little more we will see it is early days yet but still barracks company in the optioned it Julia Roberts is attached i can not think of anyone else im delighted so far. She is an incredibly talented actress we will talk about other books that you have written but before we get into the first call have your books gotten more topical over the years . Its funny i tried to look at the trajectory of my career and i actually think it is where my brain is at any given time if you look at the very beginning of my career it was about mothers and daughters i was closer in age to the daughter than the mother. That i had a baby and got married right before my first book was published i had my first child and then the next was about motherhood and incredibly difficult it is it shocked me how hard that was and marriage and relationships and then i had all my kids with a wide span of years were all of my kids, of all the terrifying things that can happen to your kids sexual abuse kidnapping, suicide, all these things. Then they grow up and they got to the point where they were selfsufficient and then i began to take a step back to look at bigger issues that make me sit up at night and worry like the nature of good and evil like racism what it means to grieve and lose someone and reproductive rights and spark of light. Host in my sisters keeper you preface as the mother of the child who has had over ten surgeries. Yes it grew out of two different places. I wrote Second Glance which was about the eugenics project in america which very few people know about in several states we model the program that hitler used for his final solution and one of the things i learned the original society was there in new york the group that took over where is the human genome project thats almost too close for comfort and i happen to read when i was researching eugenics which is the story of the nash family in colorado the first family to create a donor sibling to help their daughter who was supposed to die by age two hanging on by a thread at age three and designed a sibling that could have a sample of umbilical cord blood she went to remission and all was great thats a whole different topic and i started to think about that and in particular when i met them they were five and eight they were little kids. But what happened to a donor sibling in the teenage years of who am i . Semi here just because of my sister . I wanted to explore that and it grew into my sisters keeper but at the same time i was a parent of a child who had multiple surgeries that is a benign tumor that grows inside your ear toward the brain if it does it will kill you so you have to take out the year canal wall and scrape out the tumor and then go deaf my husband and i chose a different approach with more surgeries but to preserve hearing he had in both years the only one in america who had that at the time we made the right choice because at the end of this he had marginal hearing of the right year and profoundly deaf in his left ear but went on to become a very talented singer tons of musical theater the ultimate Success Story but i remember very well what it was like during all of those surgeries and pre reconstruction how hard it was to keep the family balanced because one child clearly had to take precedence at that moment and we say we love all of her children equally but sometimes there are events you have to direct your attention to one child so we hope we are able to be there for all children when they need us the most so thats why i wrote that point of view for sarah in my sisters keeper. We all have the script down pat for the lost cause you are the peacemaker allied of relationships in your book. That makes sense watching show what one and to forge a family also its fascinating on many levels teaching ethics courses at medical school in Nursing School and it is something to consider because we tend to think parents make the best decisions for their children medically but what if there was a competing medical interest and it comes to those ethics we know a patient and what is happening to a patient could end up convening a ethics committee. So finally to choose an embryo with six matching proteins to help cure cancer is very different than choosing a child that has brown hair or female you just begin to wonder how do we monitor all that and keep it from spiraling out of control . Because one of these examples to outstrip morality and then we get to a point where that happens. Host describe your work to other people. People say what you do i say i write nonfiction and what kind some of it is very future most of it is very contemporary and deals with contemporary information politics and surveillance and censorship and the question whether or not technology will enable us to be more free. Is a hard to translate the modern day themes into a Science Fiction format . Know the next question everyone asks is how could you write Science Fiction in the era of rapid change . Are you worried you will be left behind by the march of history . Just like a the 21st century like if you dont have ten ideas a day youre not really trying. Host asking if they admit it or not they are writing about the present really it is a comment on the now. I think as it reaches into the world when you have go to the doctor they will swap your throat and wait a couple of days and have a look and then tell you whats going on in your body she doesnt do that because she made the exact replica of your body but and incredibly replica of your body were only one facet was the most important fact so Science Fiction grab a technology and build a toy world where that takes on importance and its a way to surface the blatant properties especially Emotional Properties before 1998 we didnt have a way to talk about mass surveillance of the George Orwell gives us incredibly useful narrative framework for talking about the emotional impact of living under conditions of mass surveillance now we can use the word orwellian somebody who has a great idea well spy on everything everyone does and then find all the bad people like the sermon on the mount and then you can explain why thats creepy with that and talk about this concrete thing. Science fiction writers fancy themselves sometimes that they are due future casting to look at the variables and put this together they call it the timeline because there is a future in his book like any future one fortuneteller it was so vague you could interpret any way you wanted but dante talks about the fortunetellers what happened to them he would turn their heads around 180 degrees and then put them in molten feces and then was flogged relentlessly by demons and he gave them an easy break because the message of the fortuneteller the future is coming no matter what you do that is doing no matter what you do then why are we here i like to think it happens because of what we do and a Science Fiction writers we can intervene in the future which is so much more interesting. Host how do you use your characters to do the intervention . Often what i am thinking of tech and policy are very abstract ideas. They have a super concrete consequence and by writing stories that pivot on thes abstract ideas like general purpose computing or strong cryptography then you can take these things non figurative abstract mathematics and take them into emotional stories where it becomes undeniable. Host how many books you have written . I dont know the number it is in the twenties only because there are essay collections and short story collections in a picture book for kids and other things may be around 25. Host you talk about surveillance and privacy do you find yourself revisiting those concepts and characters . Anyone who tries to communicate as the platonic irreversible thing they have in their head want to put into your head and they try to reproduce it through a medium so i write words and a story or a give a talk and i try to make it happen and then i get feedback what people heard when i said it and from that i get a more refined idea of how i might put that into other peoples heads and then i try again you can see this in the work of writers they circle the idea through their whole career like a gunner of mortar fire you take a shot and get some feedback and change your elevation come in some ways it is all the same story like this is how i see the world and what i have hoped for something to transmit more perfectly to you. One of your novels grew out of what you are constructing at the time. I never had a blog post to turn into a novel but everything that seems like it is significant to write for public consumption something a stranger can understand you what excited you then you cant cheat i can never figure out what i meant but i have to be more rigorous and that is a database but also creates a mama next suit of all the rattling around and then they crystallize into novels and essays and short stories but they have the idea and research my method is until it sparks an idea. Tell us about your ideas that spark the book. Walk away is an optimistic disaster novel in which a time of great economic and Environmental Crisis the majority people pull together and the enemy is of the bad people who are just waiting for the breakdown of law and order to go eat their neighbors but those that were convinced in the time of crisis bad people are coming the racialized import people are coming for them to be preemptively policing them to keep them from tearing down their towns and from a paradise built in hell this wonderful historian and closely researched disaster and how people behaved and how we thought they behaved with the Power Outages or Hurricane Katrina or the Haiti Earthquake and each time people add a distance who are convinced the must be a total breakdown and then when you read that first person account that are published by the people on the ground there is an incredible moment with the petty grievance stops and then people realize they have more in common with their neighbors then they had separating them and solidarity became the order of the day. Its about people who find solidarity and who use software and automated mechanisms with the luxury resorts that babysit themselves anybody can take what they want or do what they want when a rich weirdo says thats my dirt in garbage you say theres more where that came from and then walk away. It is a book that has had a good response they say it nails that intuition that i couldnt give a word to when you are crystallizing. Host to introduce the protagonist and antagonist. There is a multigenerational story but three young people who are walking away from default society. And those Anonymous Party and then adopts the real names policy like facebook you have to use your real name they are so infuriated they give him the top 20 names from the 18 twenties census we doesnt fit in the database and then they meet a trust fund heiress who also has become disenchanted and there is a whole host of characters of a brazilian and national and who is a leader in the movement who struggled all the time and then to see this egalitarian ethos and mathematician who was part of a project to build practical immortality to allow people to simulate the consciousness that if she sticks around and does this to be complicit and then to steal the fire of the gods and then to release the knowledge is open source. And those are just a distraction for the rest of modernity and thats when the hellfire missiles come out. And as they have it now and that do the best that they can but to create a totalitarian moment the father of the young heiress is super rich and a charming fellow but also kidding himself if he isnt that somebody else would and if not him he such a nice guy. So why shouldnt we find the best among us because they will be counted in the best among them. Host that is what i walk away is to acknowledge that there are problems to be solved not citizens. Please expand. People talk about the unnecessary it neoclassical economics a certain number of people that are unemployed. So we count the unemployed recount job seekers and overall numbers but at certain point if you think automation will remove the need and you dont assume we will do something to redistribute that robots and what they are building then you have so many people hanging around like a bad film its way more than you need and then it becomes a source of instability. So there are problems to be solved. How do we buy these people off so we dont have to get rid of them you sulfur equilibrium and economics but where is that balance point . We had the equilibrium was surveillance and cops. And between redistribution. At a certain point the amount of money that people need to spend to build the guillotine exceeds the amount of money just to build hospitals and roads to diffuse the energy to the guillotine built on their lawn but one thing mass surveillance has done that is so much cheaper to separate the sheep from the goats. And to move that equilibrium. And where the guard labor is cheaper than the distribution is moving so far along all these people who dont feel they have a stake in society i was talking about this last week at a conference and people talked about how natural it feels those utopian stories that when the system starts to separate people overrun that Civic Infrastructure and set fire to everything why would they do that so it struck me when you see that in prison riots it makes total sense why would labor down the prison because it is in an adversarial relationship yes thats where they sleep and eat but because that is how they are controlled and they have no stake in the prison and the fact that we totally understand and it feels completely incredible that so many of the neighbors will want to burn down the city that they live in is that says unconsciously we think of society not as a machine for delivering dignity in the essentials that go into it but instead the cage and if you think about that then of course it makes perfect sense that as soon as the guards turn their back you burn it all down. How do you define your economic philosophy . I am a liberal. The word comes from latin and this is very much in mind to be contracted with a slave and one very simple way to describe true liberalism is to say that everyone has the right to say no. Thats all. If you are a woman you dont have to agree to be raped if you are the employee and dont like it you can leave. But im reading a wonderful book about a novel of the soviets and people could not say no. If we were employees do with the bosses said we do but we could always walk but that is fundamental to a free society. And with true liberalism it is the theory of an adult society. And with that fascism and communism and that social democracy of the welfare state. That doesnt mean we shouldnt help people. But i call myself a christian liberal. Host back to why liberalism works, i can understand the progressive point of view i can remember its attraction as one peruses the pages of the nation or gnome chomskys latest come it feels like one is doing good. Isnt that great. Just listening to him, actually debated him last summer i was in a festival in england he was on a big screen like a large tv screen and the three of us argued with him. And i think people who feel they want to do something for the poor should do something for the poor. For example, they should help the homeless as i have actually. In a small way by having them compliment them i have some Homeless People with me for four and half years. It does not make me a saint, just makes me a person wants to put her money where her mouth is. The key point is to let the poor people flee so that they can work and travel and live. You told me before you started, that you have 2 acres. While that is probably because yorktown, you cant build a house without a large lot. That is to keep poor people out. That is what is for. It is true. In many places in the United States. People with 2acre lots, careening a nation magazine. Tyrell. [laughter]. There are no rules are no restrictions and no rules. So lets go back to why liberalism works. This is a quote from stephen. You tell us who he is here in a minute you say the Public Policy should not be designed to advance moral instincts that we all reject everyday lives. Thats right. Cory about not having to put your money where your mouth is. Not pushing people around. Im not ever like to being in a boss myself. Some people are much Better Administration than i am. In a free labor market, a person can leave if they dont like your management style. But in any case, people should not like being nasty. Theres best driver this morni morning, he was really nasty. And he said to him, your life would be better if you treated your customers with respect. Ive been on buses in chicago the bus driver was wonderful. He welcomes people on the bus and is proud to get there in time. Thats how we are to live. We should live the way our moms told us to bring i taught from the university of shark cargo from 2000 to 2015. Ive been in retirement since then. My joke is that i retired in order to work more. I finished my trilogy on the economic and social histories, and finished this book that came out on why it works i have a new book coming up from chicago from the Chicago Press and the full which is kind of a pop version of all of these called leave me alone and i will make you rich. Host you talked about your trilogy, the most recent, bourgeois equality. What is the definition in room bourgeois. Cory attends prison. Usually a specialized and the leaders of the town. The merchants and manufacturers and guilds men. I was in fact the common term for the class in english. That was before the phrase middleclass became common about 1800. They started calling them they call themselves middleclass. And before, before the basic idea was that there were priests, and the ability and then everyone else solely in the last couple of centuries that we started making distinctions one distinct distinction between them. My point is really, to argue against my friends on both the left and the right, who are contemptuous of this. Of people like my grandfather was contentious. He was an intellectual contractor. And it was honorable thing to do if youre not cheating, your doing your wiring of airports well, and are being paid for it. What is odd about it is it makes for a sweet society. Theres a sort of mythology the marks pc especially especially in the soviet union. Anyone who makes money is evil. On the contrary. Before you make money, you do things that people like. What exactly is the problem here. Host the christian gospels, surprisingly harshly by the standards of the rest of the roles predict religiousness pretty is not surprising therefore that in that 19th century the bourgeois Christian Europe invented the idea of which was him predict. Cory thats right. Socialism is a second eyes it think of christianity in many ways the apocalypse of evolution. It is very similar to the Second Coming of christ read the father of ideology among soviet communists in china that when they were sent to the prison camp, he thought it was okay. He thought it was okay because it must be the party knows and very similar attitude in some versions of christianity the priest is bad and bad. Theres a certain sent element as well. It is quite strange. The west socalled, most successfully spread of the world had would have us ideology of anti wealth. I just reread new translation theologian out theologian, thery a socialist element to it. Christianity was with amanda friends among friends, space quality of consumption and is very sensible does not make sense in the Large Society. It never has. Does not work when its a Large Society when its about printed family works. Socialism im talking about. Host you a long time, what happened. Cory while i changed the gender. I did that in 1995. I was once donald and after that, i felt there was something more that i needed to look into. And like to pray to whom it concerns. We couldnt go on calling anglo system. The american revolution. Interested me very well. It was the middle road between catholicism and something else. Host what is it about at the fitzhugh so well. Deidre it is, the spirit of the church. In the United States will call the present chosen. Because in virginia especially coming of the class and in new york, the upper class was episcopalian. [laughter]. Is not because it was the present chosen that i like it. In the kind of joking way, he claimed that episcopalian is him coming dont really need to believe in anything. You do the ceremonies. You become a church, and you do the math. Host the smells of the bells printed. Deidre no that is high church. Once a year in iowa at a church, once a year we did smells and bells printed is kind of funny. Instead of fun actually. It is a very flexible framework for the journey. You dont have to be leaving the virgin birth to be a practicing person. I think it is true of Economic Performance pretty you dont need to be specialist of the economy to be a contractor. You just do your job, and you might learn from it after a while. There is a mutual advantage here. As i get older, keep trying to unify my thinking. The paper im working on right now about theological free will. Its a very deep subject. And free markets. I think they are connected, they are not opposed to so Many Americans think. You dont have to be a socialist to be a christian. Host lets go back to the porsche law. I agree with my favorite economist nancy for break that education should be financed from the center at the early childcare should be expanded and financed by the state. Texas should be seen that corporate welfare should be eliminated and military expenditures should be cut to it tiny fraction of the present level and a modest income should be given to every american but the tax laws should both encourage men and women combined paid work with family and Community Work and we follow full version of adam smith are egalitarian. Is there but in their printed. Deidre nancy and is an old friend. She a professor of the university of massachusetts. And she should get them nobel prize but she wont. She was annoyed that a connor a narcissist because shes not unorthodox markets. I was once, bias socialist. As i said, im a christian liberal which means that i have knowledge responsibility that we have towards the poor. I cannot just take it kind of country club, humans are losers. So a lot of the policy proposals that nancy makes in the left, i agree i may not quite agree with that skill she wants to do them on but we agree we should health for people and pregnant women and so forth. That there should be manifested in peoples face but an open end. Help. That is perfectly consistent with what we unfortunately go capitalist. But when you think about it, the ordinary transaction, we buy a cup of coffee, and for one thing it is the sheer act of buying a couple coffee is mutually advantageous. Both people are happy about it and furthermore you noticed that if you make a habit of going to a coffee shop, you eventually become friends. Commerce creates adventure. In church creates friendship. For high school class, or whatever. People get together, theyre not hurting each other, not forcing each other to do things printed youre allowed to say no. Now that that comes with the french called duke suite activitie, withbetter pay your u dont, we put you in jail. And the threats from the irs. And having a minor, not legal dispute read i dont like coercion, i do member. Host pc dont like the word, philosophy. Deidre is on the philosophy, sorta dont like. The word capitalist is modified. Means not just investors which with that were met in french, around 1800 teens whole group of people who are the buses. Then after mark, capitalism. And that became the characterization of our commercials. Its a terrible word. Intellectually and scientifically and educational educationally. Marxists and everyone else that capital can relations the spring of our commercial economy. It is not. The years necessary but the motor force comes from the spring in the spring in modern life were elective, and enormously expanded is innovation. Human creativity. This is a view of economics, ive come to take. Economics ive done for many years, my phd is fleeting because it looks at the capital. Economists call it cape, this would vote with steve brother thanks. But capital the capital and motivational he did things. Now if i was speaking in brazil a couple of days ago, and he said to them bankers, may be what they dont like what you do is very good, you choose among the creator, but you are not the creator. You say okay, this is a good idea. I will make a loan. That is an appropriate an important and necessary. But is not the idea. That is why freeing people under liberalism, first spring portman. Then slaves, and slowly women. Women immigrants, catholics, gay people, whatever. This remarkable freeing of transgender people. All of that works to encourage, think about the word means. Bring encouragement to be creative. This is an amazing effect. Income, mobility to buy stuff. To go to the university it has increased by a factor of 3000 percent. Its 3000 percent not 100 or 200 or 300 is 3000 percent. Thats what free society has done. Host we are in a very general sense having a debate about capitalism versus socialism. This is not the first time that we have had this. Deidre is been going on since the middle of the 19th century. The get to say, lets try socialism. And bernie, oh bernie. I dont hate bernie. He couldnt hate bernie. Its a very charming person. He was a freshman at the university of chicago in 1960. I was a freshman another college. I was in the military at the time. But at the time, we had a most the same opinion about the capitalism. I prefer to call it a different name. Its much more accurate word that. But anyway, both wanted to overthrow capitalism. He was probably more systematic than i was. I read half of the communist menu fest and a reckoned that was enough. I have read a good deal of it. In london who was a hero of mine when i was 16 rated is great. We have the same opinion. I learned stuff and he didnt. Is the same same opinion he had in 1960. People say hes consistent yes, he is consistently wrong. We have tried socialism. As i said appropriately and efficiently works in a family. Works among small groups of friends. And it should. Buy pizza to share with five of my friends. And i say well you know, i will eat the solid pipe paid for. This not what friends do. But in a big society, 330 new people, that is kind of making everything into a family does not work. It is when you dont have charity i want to help each other and it doesnt mean you have terrible capitalistic blood. No. That is not how they are which i think i established in my first book. And it is not the future or past of our society which have argued it in the third book. Also incurring an in depth, former administration of trump, his most recent book is the war for american soul. Part of the discussion from january of this year. Was missing, the second half of what was missing under the Obama Administration is the id idea, the policy that the ideology is irrelevant. The terrorism is the result of poverty or this disenfranchisement. Remember the beginning of the Obama Administration, i think it was a csi half, the john friend who became the president s director said, terrorism is the result of upstream fascist, lack of education. Webster, have of india would be terrorists. Half of china will be terrorists and they are not freighted as a result of that analysis the Obama Administration said when you fully the really bad guys, we will kill them in we will win. Just the idea that the president of the United States and the obama, how to secure habit in which he had the threats disposition matrix, which locations of individual terrorists would be shared. And he would decide which terrorists we should kill today. Thats sheer insanity. He could you imagine churchill, actually choosing which commander to kill. Thats not the job of the president. When we arrived in the white house, we had hundred and 20 obama holdovers in the National Council of edina how many people work in the National Security council under eisenhower pretty 55. Nobody can tell me that eisenhowers globe was less complicated in our globe today. Under Ronald Reagan, its only 75 individuals. When they have done is replicated government at the white house. They have made should have been strategic, eight tactical function and most important of all, they missed the ideology. Rich saudi engineering. To become suicide bombers on 911 because of poor or uneducated. People with inmates. The head of al qaeda, is nimby. The Obama Administration said ideology, is irrelevant. This administration sees it very differently and if you want to understand where we are going, read the president s speech. Read his incredible speech where he talks about our enemies being able. As of the poor, evil ideology just as fascism was an ideological threat in essence just as the soviet union with the threats, it isnt about poor people at is about going to subscribe to the ideology and blame that the only way for humans to live as an drake global process. Host when you hear the newspapers and they talk about the general the got killed theres a prediction that this could lead to world war iii. Is quite stunning on the last 72 hours that world war three, world war iii, was trending on social media. What world do these people live in. Do they really think, will win 70 comes up with a criticism of an action, the bliss place to start is to take parts of it and what is the individual critic. So they are saying, we should not have to kill him. How is that better, the man whose hands are drenched in the blood of at least 603 u. S. Citizens. Who have been responsible for the naming of thousands of others. This man who we knew according to exquisite intelligence was on the cusp of initiating operations to three different country in the coming weeks that wouldve killed hundreds of u. S. Citizens let alone our muslim allies. Leaving that man alone to do his business. That is better. Better than what world. Anybody whos not shaving when obama killed. Or when we killed the wonder dog. They held back daddy and is not sharing when a murderous a conic evil individual, this killed by a fire strike needs to examine the conscious. I care what your politics are what god you pray to come i dont care if youre in atheist or video been with them i dont care what your skin color is printed you need to examine your conscience if you think that person didnt deserve to become a pile of ashes. Host sebastian how did you get to know President Trump freighted. I had special regard and i was in my third year at teaching and college and the university, is preparing for classing a fungal who i didnt know from a hole in the ground and said im Campaign Manager for candidate trump and in this was in the summer of 2015 and he said candidate trump, is preparing for the whole gop debate on National Security. What i consider meeting with candidate trump. Perhaps help preparing for that debate. It nice and sure. I flew to new york printed. Sebastian and i went to trump tower and then candidate trumps office, and sat down with him and closer than we are in his desk and then was in the corner and ran his incredible blue sky discussion on Security Issues from the civil war, right up to isis nuclear weapons. And halfway through the discussion he did the classic tropism, he looked to cory and he said i like this guy. Lets hire him. He asked me to become a consultant and prepare policy briefs first base, and then eventually became a new general mike flint and headed his transition team. And that became part of the ones are only two candidates left, i became part of the official president ial transition team. And finally the job of Deputy Assistant to the presence of strategy which i started on 12 oh one, of 2017. Host why did you glass just seven months rated. Sebastian i was on vacation, and new england in the middle of the fight when i said have you seen the news. I said no and cut from the world. Like to not see or be plugged in and went to an area when i could check the internet and i see where steve resigned out of the blue he was my immediate boss. I was that Deputy Assistant he was the chief strategist. And without telling me, steve said i am leaving. In the two months prior to that, and income clear to me that the new national hr was not a fan of mine. I was sort of on the National Security council but i was always present for key meetings regarding isis, china russia, an interesting as we left off the invitation once he became the security adviser. I knew i was being boxed out. In my immediate later resigned and so mom wife and i sat down and talked about it and we decided that i should stay in the white house for a while. And to be consistently boxed out by somebody who has issues with me, but i support the great agenda from the outside printed and as i wrote in my letter to the president , is available, as of right now, the antique mega forces are in the white house with a chart being there obviously, i would like to serve you on the outside. I think you better do so. The president actually agreed now and the National Radio show, across the nation, 2 million listeners and over a Million Dollars on social media. So my decision was shaped by the belief that where he sent is not important. Its the agenda and making America Great again. Bringing us back to that place to the shining mess on the hill. This worked out in the last two years. Host his most recent book is the war for america itself. When you book open the book and Trinity College. Sebastian is part of the reason that i wrote this on the book. It provides an event experience and i have to to write the chapter and should. And for me. My daughter graduated from Trinity College last may. And it had been a tough four years for her. She was involved in the accident that made the National News which is before the term began, there were children in College Building and they were on the deck of the billing on third floor and my daughter stepped out from the neck and so she stepped out, all three decks disconnected. Lucky nobody was killed but very serious injuries. My daughter was on crutches for weeks and despite that, she went to the captain of a team and had four different jobs in college running up coffee bar the ata, Research Assistants and then she was invited to join the institute at the trinity church. Trinity like most colleges are hardcore left. They wanted to propagate the Judeo Christian civilization. That was the last straw i guess for the social justice warriors. In three weeks before the graduation, the twopoint daughters photograph and on social media and posted the encounters, the butter name, and underneath, they said that since the face of the white supremacy. Why, because she was my doctor and despite the fact that this girl had helped ethnic women, minority women, and for those who have been abused financially from the partners of their husbands, so when it came to graduation, i was very trippy dishes. I did not want to cause a scene. I knew the route would be a lot of people there who were probably not trump supporters. It was a sunny day. I didnt sit with my family. I sent under an oak tree pretty so they would not be any distractions from watching. From my daughter celebration is all fine and to help after the ceremony, my daughter received her diploma in the capture in the year printed nine decided to make my way back to my wife and my motherinlaw the daughter, and i was separated from everyone. In the little slip of a girl walked up to me this was the meat of the opening of the war for americas whole. The little girl walked straight up to me maybe 19 years old, and the 85 pounds eight dripping wet and she looked me in the eye and she said are you Sebastian Gorka the one who worked for donald trump in the white house. And me, i smiled and extended my hand yes that is me. And hereafter edit teens, she said and a few you naughty. I have been through the mall the white house but i never had somebody and was living in the most successful powerful nation in the world and do that to me in front of hundreds of witnesses. Once a my composure i said not with my family background, i saw her go back to her family and i think the mother and grandmother probably were standing there, and i looked her in the face and i said, who in the do you think you are. My parents children suffered under the occupation is essential in europe. And after that my father on the communistic dictation, was arrested and tortured and imprisoned and who do who the do you think your to call me that name. In the girls mother was fairly shocked and her jaw dropped and she said, did you really say that to this man. And this is why i wrote the book the war for the soul. The little girl, freeze nation in the world with it just like gran from like the joker bettman looked at her mother and said, yes, i did. This frightening. It is frightening and according to the victims of communism the moral foundations the latest poll, 72 percent of the american would either like to live in a communist or socialist country. This after the fact that we know if you read the black book of communist that at least hundred million human beings were exterminated in the name of karl marx and his ideology. So i spent more than 20 years in the National Security domain. I specialized in regular warfare in the strategy of counterterrorism. And now, the last two years have been damaging moment for me. The skills have fallen over my eyes and realized that have perhaps the greatest threat that we face is the falsification of history and the indoctrination of a whole generation of americans. Host rule number one, live by the role personal discretion into your adversary as a human, deserving zero respect, for compassion. Sebastian and they have used very effectively. The democrats assume call for horsewoman of the democratic nancy pelosi with impeachment instructions. Perhaps most influence winchell individual, reproduced elements of Hillary Clintons dissertation. In working for them, only to find the original dissertation, is in the appendix. Missing the last three years and you the letter from ms. Been the most president since 1948, his big dark embassy to jerusalem. Recognize jerusalem after 23 years of broken promises must close his relationship you can imagine with Prime Minister of israel, to call that man and empty semi, a bigot and a racist, the same person is effective Prison Reform especially for minorities and was created the lowest economy. Its a triangulation that we were taught, separating isolated just right. Remember the path of the years of the revolution and going back centuries but never to this do not target children. We didnt target the president to children we didnt go after the first ladies because they were wearing the wrong shoes as they got onto the helicopter. Thats why when people talk about trump derangements rendering, there is some substantive evidence the level of demeaning the other person to the point that you did neither humanity, that is very unhealthy. This disturbing. And you see that. If you would soviet russia, germany, when you start to dehumanize not discuss policy issues, that leaves the road to the labor camps this way and convince the sadly democrats, john f. Kennedys death taken over by extremists, fight radicals, was that you have that. Tell about the benjamins. That omar pretty tweeted two days ago, that they have murdered a Foreign Government official. What made so money was mass murder. Was hitler and official to this moment. We are living in hard times. But as Ronald Reagan taught us, and i consider myself to be a reagan order affection, we are happy. We are fueled by love, love of country, love of literacy but i feel on the left thats another reason that i wrote this book is because the movement that has become if eyeing and feta fueled by hatred. That is hatred itself. This is psychological underpinnings but with thinking americans. Which is not in a colonial force, we are the freeze nation. We have of the democratic party, the left, the fake news industrial, tried to manufacture china gives the president of other it was regards to russian collusion or extortion and bribery in ukraine, every single time it was redundant back to them. Reminiscent of that final scene when bennett soviet launches those torpedoes thinking hes going to sink the distance and strong subgrade, but what happens, the torpedoes circle back and seek his own vessel. The fact that Hillary Clinton a former super agent to give the dossier of russian propaganda and use in a secret or two spinous and Trump Campaign white house and then to come off or after us. Its the sweetest most delicious of ironies. Weve all seen transcript, there is nothing on it. One hundred bidens son, taking him between 50 80000 per month, from a corrupt company that was investigated by the ukraine, in which his father for the moment Obama Administration, they fired the prosecutor before he give them a billion dollars. All of these things go back like a boomerang. Youre right in one thing. Crowd strike, perhaps the one thing the democrats and hillary and coming in brendan which we talked about. The idea that the company will is greatly invested and that was working in the ukraine was a message to the dmz, we do need to get to the bottom of that but if you believe in justice, of the news for you. William bar, john dunn, there on the case and they are unstoppable. So stay tuned. Host much of his influence this book on your part of your own philosophy. Sebastian great question. So my three favorite books. Undirected down a great deal in my second book written if you really are interested in mass security and strategy, there are two classic authors you must be familiar with. On more and the chinese strategist, the art of war. They complement each other. It was published by his widow. It is the most influential text on of the west does National Security. The west system of nationstates thinks about National Security. The concepts of friction and sense of gravity, their eternally typical. On the other hand, is incredibly important because a break you out of your with thinking and illustrates how other nations have very different ways about thinking with regards to National Security is a strategy read its essential reading. He was to understand china is doing against us today. What and ron and rush are doing. Not because they are asian but because the foundation of the warfare of the indirect approach and how you take down a more powerful enemy than yourself. So if you want to start your library build from there. Host here on the sebastian. Guest something thats been bothering me is been missed or least not brought up and i think that it is putin has played the democratic party. To do his bidding if the democrats would have clutter in the present instead of attacking him, all of the stuff that we have been going through may have never occurred. They knew how stupid these people are and he played them like a fiddle. Sebastian was a phrase that was it useful, useful idiots. Really is a case of that. But when you have, the most egregious example, many of the former cia director, john brennan, obama and the cia on national television, use the word treasonous to describe the president of the United States, Vladimir Putin is laughing. Weatherize being paid by the president is irrelevant. Hes doing the venting, the idea the president has been targeted more than 200 russian in syria by our forces, instead of sitting like this ukraine like obama did, since antitank missiles, an individual gets moscow that we have ever seen. The person is treasonous. He returned massive return on their investment. Even when they did not pay these individuals. His sound that they targeted them. Ted kennedy, under gay negotiations with the family trying to elicit to undermine Ronald Reagans election. As always on the side of the left on the side of useful idiots, the fellow travelers. Now the choosing donald trump and conservatives. Host why we fight, the 2018 book pressure does not share americas interest, the main sermon threat but that does not mean it is a candy our friend. Thats a look at some of the authors, watch any of these programs in their entirety ernie other, got to booktv. Org. Television has changed since cspan began 41 years ago but her Mission Continues to provide an unfiltered view of government. Already this year we brought you primary election coverage. The president ial impeachment process. And at the federal response to the coronavirus printed and was cspans Public Affairs programming on television. Online or listen our free radio app. And be of the National Conversation cspans daily Washington Journal Program or through our social media speed. Cspan, created by private industry, americas Television Company as a Public Service and brought to you by your television provider. Saturday night at 11 eastern, watch author, they discuss the pandemics. What happens now is when we have outbreaks of contagious diseases, we look at the social political roots. People get sick, and then we help we can through vaccines and drums edit to make it go away. Should not be surprising then when i talk about invalid, somehow very quickly animal connection comes into play. Its also very obviously mosquitoes and ebola it is bats. And those of the original causes of where this virus sort of lives in effect somebody and that is how you must spread out the chains of said submission in humans. There is nothing about this virus that suggests anything other than a natural mutation and is a reminder that we need all kinds of biological warfare to really explain something that is natural anything to be a wakeup call to all of us, that the nation must be taken very seriously. Is in a 9 00 p. M. Eastern on afterwards on netflix director of inclusion and former official with the book, the sick. Were often in a challenge, people, everybody is the same because everybody is treated in the same way. So people dont have different experiences of working with that kind of logic, were not on are even denying our difference but we are denying inequality. Watch authors discussing