As a letter to her son. Here is a portion of that program. People here when you say i wonder if i can be irredeemable they hear all white people and they hear them as individuals as opposed to whiteness for the identity. And with the second paragraph so they dont have a different history or a body but a different relationship to identity. So potentially as a consequence a more humane relationship to each other. So what i got to saying a person or individual so certainly like a white man or someone who thinks of those figures i take for example john brown are some of the most precious people in the world. Its important to me not to have a formulation and this is a struggle i am engaged in. One more question before we move on to your other book books, mothering black boys in america is a special calling. Yes. My mother said to me and i think about it a number of different ways and one is of course all the risk as people talk incessantly that it is difficult and not necessarily helpful about the challenges that they face in the world whether an act of incarceration nor the attendance rates. I think about it differently a lot of those things are true of wanting to raise my children who identify as black boys that in a way that does not do you limit their imagination or sense of possibility and allows them to understand the facts of racial inequality that keeps him from thinking they are superior to people because they are relatively privileged to other people generally and also black people but also to keep them away from seeking patriarchy or dominance in the society that values those highly. So those are more elusive for black men for a society that values that. That is part of the task a is raising them, for me and i value that like i value their characters and sensitivity and complexity from the walk of life that they come from. So the lessons of what it means to be a man across the board impales things that are not so good and then the lessons of what blackness is unless you counter or both of those and to give them a much greater capacity to be fully human. Host in the last 19 minutes everything we have talked about are things that you teach in part at princeton . Not really that is a departure for me. It is the spirit with which i teach. Of course i have but but you have much more of a fact. But i do think of that as a calling so it is important to bring to that license of values and humanity and justice and love that is to be dispassionate. How do you get your degree from harvard at the same time . Unwisely. [laughter] when i graduated from college at 21 years old and just completely in love with life and the mind that i wanted to do everything i did graduate school of law school i took my orals and then it was at a frenzied pace but it was beautiful and amazing for me. I liked it. I learned so much and every day i was being nurtured all these generations of people that have come before me. We want to play a little bit of music and little bit of video from 1999. Host of course this is at the roosevelt congressional Gold Medal Ceremony in 1989. What is that song . Lift every voice the song that was known as the National Anthem and then the black national and the after the 1970s and it is the song that i describe as black americas most precious song. And that clip of rosa parks and jesse norman that is recently departed. Host you have a biography of the song. The author and the composer they were brothers board in Jacksonville Florida and of course back in the day they were called those that every achievement and then johnson became the first secretary general of the naacp and it is extraordinary but the signature accomplishments. And firstgeneration freemen . Born in the 18 seventies . Yes. The family was born in virginia but yes they were of that generation that emerged from slavery with the hopes and dreams and aspirations that were so quickly dashed at the end of reconstruction. What was the reception in 1900 . It is extraordinary that it caught on like wildfire it was immediately embraced as the anthem of black america and what i try to tell in the book the United States is not have a National Anthem at this point so people were referring to it as an anthem the johnson brothers were both educated at the time and left florida and went back to go to florida and part because there was a terrible fire in the city so as a song caught on across the schoolchildren the black women circulated it it is printed in the back of the hymnals so it is describe it as an anthem and they did not intend it that way but they said this is our anthem. Had we continue playing we would see president clinton singing. Yes. That is a distinction he may be the only us president who knew the three versus. Host may your book may we forever stand hiphop under the farewell. So one of the things that we talk about this in my first book is there is something that happened in the seventies and eighties a transformation with a black social and political life to do with that Civic Engagement connected to the deindustrialization and there was a piece where he said may he rest in peace that hiphop is the refusal of that position it is bold it is not formal and unwilling to perform with that reveling that is commonplace in culture but it is at presents for africanamericans so that departure that we talk about was at the song keeps coming back so there are various moments it just felt like it would peter out completely but it keeps coming back. Even though the kind of institutions and communities from a daily basis dont exist in the same way but communities. Host can you draw a direct line from langston to Biggie Smalls . Absolutely. And so many ways both of them took the beauty of the vernacular language and then to tell stories that often had a political content. And resonated deeply they are different kinds of political subjects like as an organizer but the relationship to black language throughout the diaspora and to understand that as a foundation for the production that is absolutely directly connected. Host part of lad i talk about in the book of course is the practice by which the most popular form of music and to be extent expanded by the core audience but there is something that i talk about from the very beginning of what post industrial life and what that was like in the United States. In all of its complexity. Is not cecconi into the could its the exploration. Host you use the term and see what does that mean . It is the word for wrapper that is more organic to hiphop it actually comes from master of ceremonies but to make it phonetic emc ee that there is a relationship between the wrapper and the dj and the producer was really important. It is a title absolutely. It is internal to hiphop to describe the role. Im interested really and what makes the mc good. That just this moment in history but so that became important. Host from profits of the hood the construction of blackness in which that is demonized has become part of the art forms conscience. Right. And i should say hiphop has changed a great deal from 2004 there are some aspects that are still described at present. But there is a wert on a over to play of thugs if you know tupac embrace the idea of thug life. Of the criminalization of black people with the sense of a very long history of america stereotyping. I spoke from criminality and access and gangsters and hiphop has engaged that satiricall satirically, critically , played into but with that social reality. Host lets hear from our viewers as we talk about your books. Roslyn heights new york. Caller hello. I have fought races of my life but i have grown and seen that the world is a complex situation. I dont support black nationalism i think is just as bad as White Nationalism and with the fascism in a country with trumps face that is good and bad in all groups black people are not inferior or superior and black nationalism is just as wrong as White Nationalism i cannot understand why she talks about that. I am not a black nationalist. Im far left. Nationalism takes on many different faces. There are conservative branches but politically i am quite aligned many ways to political conservativism. Even though White Conservative advocates black nationalism that you would see it in and organization like the black Panther Party or the Student National coordinating committee or with the third world politics, anti colonialism that identify and align with colonized people. So the single term doesnt mean much without the larger context. But i dont disagree with the color that they are equivalent because certainly people trying to find a way to building a sense of control and autonomy over the communities that they live in has a long history of colonialism and domination. That is not the same as celebrating the history of the slavery and domination. That is not the designation i waited of scribe to. You say you are far left . I identify as someone who believes in a democracy is an intellectual because i am against economic exploitation and everybody should have access to faith, environment, clean water, safe schools, minimum wage, healthcare. I believe in this extraordinary wealthy country and we should not have children who are poor. People should not be living on the street. I dont think the narrative of the consequences of economic vulnerability are just consequences and we should be okay. Thats not a decent way to organize society. I dont believe people are poor because they are deficient but they are exploited or a lack of opportunity. So the question is much as i write and think about race it is not separate from the distribution of suffering in our society. So an example of how it has been organized to opportunity unjustly but i want to be those that dominate and then to have a robust democracy that is only possible with the quality of life for everybody in society host you suggest Justice Kavanaugh should read your newest book spark of light . Is probably one of the most balanced of abortion rights and reproductive rights that i have found i work really hard to make it balanced just with the other peoples points of view with compassion and empathy could protect roe v wade a little longer. The book is actually about a shooting at a reproductive rights clinic in mississippi the state that only has one clinic left in america because over 280 laws at the state level chipping away at reproductive rights since 2012 and in my book the government comes in he kills hostages and he takes the rest hostage and one of the people he takes hostages a 15 yearold daughter of the Hostage Negotiator on the outside and they all believe very Different Things about you want reproductive rights individuals are prolife and all of their points of view are accurately represented. How do you storyboard a complex story like that with all those connections . The it is another question because theres another twist to the book is different from the others that is told in reverse. The very first thing is you see as the standoff between the standoff everything goes back one hour in time until the very end of the book where you learn all of these very Diverse People at the clinic at that moment and that was much harder than i anticipated i wrote a 48 page outline because i had to write it chronologically in reverse but i also had to follow the storylines of ten very diverse characters. Most of mine are three pages long i know my characters and the plot because i want to make sure leave a paper trail but there was so much going on and it is so complex that the real magic to me is not the outlining but the editing right edited the book i took postit flags and marked up the whole book by character and then edited in reverse ten different times following each characters thread to make sure each story was coherent and then i edited entirely going forward. How much time did you spend in jackson mississippi . As midweek between jackson and alabama working with a man who really is an africanamerican Abortion Provider who also identified as a devout christian and says he performs abortions and not in spite of his religion but because of it he heard about the Good Samaritan about who will provide for these women if not me . He went and got trained in all goes all over the United States to the most underserved areas for those who women that needed the most invited me to come shadow him. Then you can determine the title and the cover . They normally show me a cover i will tell them if i like it or dont i love the cover small great things fight it with them to confuse it. So that really caught my eye and i loved it. What does the cover represent . When i look at the cover i look at the pantone squares and if you look at the covers there is spots where color is missing as something isnt not quite right about the color. There is something absent and that is such a beautiful illustration of what i was trying to talk about. Are you kennedy . I think any white person is kennedy. So that is based off a reallife incident in fort michigan an africanamerican nurse 25 Years Experience in the delivery ward and in the aftermath the babies father said he doesnt want her or anyone that looks like her to touch his kid push up the sleeves and there was a swastika tattoo because they were in the hospital they put a postit note no africanamerican can touch the baby they bandaid to gather and they soon i hope they got a great payout but made me think what if something went wrong and as a result she was brought up on charges of murder and what if she was defended by a white public defender that would never be considered to be a racist and what if i could tell it in her voice of the do public defender that to me small great things is for white people and is meant to say open your eyes a little wider with easy to say thats our races with a white supremacist its harder to look at themselves and say the same thing that yet race is about power you hold all the power although is easier for us to see the headwinds of racism you know your life may be a little harder if you are person of color but the fact there are unearned benefits that come to us because of that and that is something for white people to learn and to fix ultimately thats why wrote the book that the audience i was hoping for. Host you ever 1026 books is everyone a bestseller . No. Not by any means. I did not have that overnight oprah moment. I started off very humble my first had 3500 copies. Thats it. I think what happened people read my books told their friends and they told friends and it grew very organically and really not until i think it was after my sisters keeper that got onto the bestseller list by itself. Host how quickly was my sisters keeper optioned . Not quickly at all. It took a while. It was not a pleasant experience. [laughter] is it true . You have not seen the movie . Dont. And that book was optioned i said the only thing that is important to me is the end it does have a monstrous twist and i ultimately people who have said i cant tell you what happens just read it so we can talk about it. In fact that is the producer who optioned the book had gotten it. So they asked me if i would talk and i said the ending is really important. He said i will not change the ending i will tell you i will tell you myself. I worked with him for a year and a half he would call me up and ask questions about characters i saw a script that looked like the book and then i got an email from a fan who worked at a casting agency did you know they change the ending of the movie . I call them at home he would not take my call they threw me off the senate and he said he will lose money because i have pretty eager and ardent fans who are rock stars they will not want to see this movie. He said we know we are doing. And sure enough they lost money on the film the fans are very upset. Ultimately the great irony is that money speaks in hollywood said he will lose money so now because of that experience i have more Creative Control of future products. Host did you have Creative Control want you optioned out . No. Most writers do not if you have Creative Control thats the anomaly because normally hollywood like you want Creative Control we dont need that thank you very much we will go to another author who will take the money and run the site giving the baby up for adoption you try to make the educated choice and doing the best you can but you dont want to call everyday and they did you feed her breakfast. Small great things has been optioned. I hope we have a little bit more. We will see. It is early days but ample and entertainment optioned it and i cannot think of better casting so i am delighted so far. Host when a read jefferson. She is incredibly and talented actress. Host we will talk about other books that jody has written but have your books, topical over the years . Its funny. I try to look at the trajectory of my career and i actually think it shows where my brain is at any given time if you look at the first book it was about mothers and daughters i was closer in age to them other than the daughter. Then i the daughter than the mother then i got married and had a baby right before the first book was published the second book was about motherhood and incredibly difficult it is and that really shocked me but then i got into the marriage and relationships and then i had all my kids with a wide span of years so all my books while the terrifying things that can happen to your kids from sexual abuse to illness to kidnapping and suicide and all these things and then they grew up and got to a point where then i began to take a step back to i could see the bigger issues that make me set up at night and worry like the nature of good and evil like the storyteller and small great things what it means to grieve and lose someone and need time and reproductive rights. Host in my sisters keeper as the mother of the child and surgeries. Right that grew out of two different places. It was about the eugenics project in america which very few people know about we actually model the program that hitler used for his final solution. So one of the things i learned is that the original American Eugenics Society when they folded the group that check over was the human genome project thats almost too close for comfort and i happen to read when i was researching eugenics a story that they called modern eugenics the story of the nash family in colorado the first family to create a donor sibling to help their daughter molly who at the time who was supposed to die by age number two they wound up designing a sibling for her who could provide a stem cell transplant through umbilical cord blood and went into remission. That was a whole different topic and i started to think about that and in particular molly and her brother when i met them were five and eight and were little kids but what would happen to a donor sibling in the teenage years when that is all about who am i . And my here just because of my sister . I really wanted to explore that and it grew into my sisters keeper but at the same time i had been of a parent of a child who had multiple surgeries it is about nine tumor that grows in your ear toward your brain if has the brain it will kill you but the traditional way is to take out the ear canal scrape it out and leave the child deaths my husband and i chose a different approach that would require more surgeries but would preserve the hearing turns out he had in both years are less than nine kids in america that had that we made the right choice because he does have marginal hearing in writing profoundly deaf in his left and became on a very talented singer is the best success story. But i remember very well what it was like during those surgeries during reconstruction how hard it was to keep the family balanced because one child clearly had to take precedence at that moment and we as parents say we love all of our children but sometimes circumstances arise that make you direct your attention toward one of your children what we really need as we hope we can be there when they need us the most thats why i wrote the point of view for sarah. We all have our scripts down pat. Im the lost cause. A lot of familial relationships. It makes sense because i was watching my own kids grow up and forge a family also what is fascinating at many levels i know it is taught in ethics courses in Nursing School and it really is something to consider because we tend to think parents can make the best decisions for their children medically but what of children have competing medical interests . And with medical ethics we know a patient and what is happening to a patient may end up at the hospital a donor is not considered a patient it does not convene the Ethics Committee so it can be weird to choose a girl that has six matching proteins to help cure cancer is very different than choosing a child that has brown hair or female you just begin to wonder how do we monitor that and keep it from spiraling out of control so it was fun for me to write the book because its an example where science has outstripped morality and ethics that we get to a point when that happens how do you describe your work to other people . People say what do you do i say write Science Fiction some of it is futuristic some is contemporary and it deals with contemporary information politics, surveillance and the question if technology can enable us to be free your take away those freedoms. Is a hard to translate that into a sciencefiction format . I dont think so the next question everyone ask is how can you write Science Fiction in the era of rapid change arent you worried you would be left behin behind . I feel like a the 21st century if you dont have seven ideas for Science Fiction novels per day you are not trying. Host all Science Fiction writers write about the present to extrapolate the future is to comment on the now. I think sciencefiction reaches into the world if you go to the doctor and you have a sore throat she will swap the back of the throat to wait a couple of days and have a look and tell you whats going on your body but she cannot do that because she made an exact replica of the body but an incredible replica of your body were only one facet was the most important. Science fiction writers reach and to build a toy world where that takes on importance. And with those Emotional Properties and then George Orwell gives incredibly useful narrative framework about the emotional framework of mass surveillance and now we have the word orwellian we can use we would to spy on everything is like the sermon on the mount. I will be the pharaoh when you can explain why without obstructions and talk about this concrete thing. And future casting looking at the variables and to call that timeline and like any fortuneteller the predictions were so vague to interpret them in any way that you wanted. And then to turn their heads around 180 degrees. And then being flawed relentlessly the mansion on the message of the fortuneteller its coming a matter what you do. So then why are we here and that is because of what we do and what we could do to intervene. Host what role do they play for you . So that is very abstract ideas. And that is the pivot on these very abstract ideas like generalpurpose computing and cryptography that they are literally masks like nobody figured out the mathematics to put them into emotional stories where it becomes undeniable. How many books have you written . Thats another question i dont know the number. It is in the twenties only because there are essay collections in a couple of books that are forthcoming. Twentyfive ish. When you write about the things you talk about surveillance do you look at that concept of characters . Anyone that has trying to communicate they want to put that into your head and they try to reproduce that act of telepathy so i write words and a story and an essay or a give a talk and try to make it happen and then i get feedback what people heard when i said it. And from that i get a more refined idea how i put it into other peoples heads. I try again they circle the idea through their whole career. Maybe like a gunner of walking mortar fire you change your elevation and take another shot in some ways its all the same story like this is how i see the world and what worries me and what i have hope for to transmit more perfectly. You grew out of a series of blog post. I never actually wrote them but what does happen is everything that crosses that seems like it is significant and i write that out for public consumption a stranger can excite you when i make notes for myself i can never figure out what i meant for for someone i never met a have to be more rigorous and that is the database but also it creates a mama on it soup of the fragment tory story ideas like a supersaturated bush and then the idea to be crystallized into novels and essays. Some peoples method they have an idea, they research it i Research Everything until it comes into an idea. Tell us about the ideas that spark the book. Its and optimistic disaster novel in which in a time of great Environmental Crisis the majority of people pull together and help each other and the enemy isnt the bad people who are just waiting for the breakdown of law and order but it is the people who are convinced in a time of crisis that they are coming specifically were coming from them that are policing them to keep them from tearing down the walls compound. So with the book a paradise built in hell to have the closely researched history of disasters and how they thought they behaved with Power Outages or Hurricane Katrina and the Haiti Earthquake and how people at a distance and wealthy people convince the must be a total breakdown in order if you read the first person account that were published by the people on the ground, so there is an incredible moment when petty grievance stops and then people realize they had more in common with their neighbors then they had separating them and in solidarity was the order of the day. So those in the badlands in that territory to use software and automated mechanisms the luxury resorts that babysit themselves for anyone to come and take what they want to do what they want and then a rich weirdo says donts builder in the garbage theres plenty more where that comes from they just walk away. So it is a book that has a good response. People read it and it feels like it is the intuition that i could not give up and you are crystallizing it for me. Host introducing the protagonist and antagonist. There is a lot of protagonist it is a multigenerational story but three young people are walking away from default society and as part of a Political Movement when the Anonymous Party adopt that real names policy like facebook you have to use your real name they are so infuriated they give the top 20 names his best friend is a man named seth and then they meet the trust fund heiress who has also become disenchanted and the three of them walk away to become part of the collective and then there is a whole host of characters a Brazilian National and as a leader in the movement and then to have the egalitarian ethos and as a project to build practical immortality to allow people to simulate their consciousness on computers and helping humanity then and that act to run away and release the knowledge. Thats a super rich that realize the smelly bohemians will be alongside of us the rest of modernity. And the state that is a looming surveillance presence it is composed of people doing the best they can so this creates that totalitarian the father of the young heiress who is super rich if youre not doing it is somebody else what and why not him . And then those that move through why should we find the best among us . And that will be counted as the best among them. That is what i walk away is not out of society but to acknowledge the problems are solved not citizens. People talk about the idea of unnecessary where the neoclassical safe you have a certain number of people who are unemployed because that suppresses wages a little bit. But at a certain point if you think automation to have the need for a lot of labor and to do something to redistribute. And that the robots are building and so many people are hanging around that is more than they need to suppress wages. Had we buy them off or neutralize them so we dont have to get rid of them. And where is that balance point. That surveillance and cops and jail workers between guard labor and redistribution. Default accumulates to a small number of hands the small money they need to spend to keep everyone from building a guillotine but they could just building hospitals and rose to diffuse from the guillotines being built on the lawn its easier to separate the sheep from the goat and who wet is. And it is the equilibrium and to redistribute and to move so far along that they dont have a stake in society. And how natural that feels and people will be overrun and they set fire to everything. Why would they do that . If you see that in prison riot movies that make sense why would the prisoner bird down the prison cracks because it exist in the adversarial relationship. Yes its with a sleep and eat but its because that is how they are controlled. They have no stake in the prison. And the fact we can totally understand and it feels credible the minute the lights go out so many neighbors will burn down the city they are living in. That unconsciously we think of society not as a machine for delivering dignity in the essentials that go into it and self actualization but instead as a cage. So of course it makes perfect sense that as soon as the guards turned their back you burn it all down how you define your economic philosophy . A liberal in every sense of the word. And then to use the word contrasted with the slave and one way to describe true liberalism is to say that everyone has the right to say no if you are a woman you dont have to agree to be right if you dont like it you can leave. Whereas i am reading a wonderful book which is a novel. In adult society, whereas many of the other options modern populism, left or right fascism, communism even the social democracy of the welfare state wants people to be children and i think its good for us to be adults. It doesnt mean we shouldnt help people. I call myself a christian liberal. Host back to why liberalism works, quote, i understand the progressive point of view. I remember its attraction as one progresses the pages of the nation or the latest it feels like one is doing good. Guest absolutely. Just listening, i actually debated him last summer he was on a big screen and the three of us argued with him. I think people who feel they want to do something for the poor should do something for the poor instead of just feeling good about reading the New York Times and thinking yes, i am a good person. I care about the poor. For example, they should help as i have in a small way by having them come live with them. I had some Homeless People with me for four and a half years in my house. That doesnt make me a saint just a person that wants to put her money where her mouth is. And the key point is to let poor people flee so they can work, travel, live. You told me before you started you have 2 acres. That is probably because in your town you cant build a house without a large loss. It is to keep poor people out. Thats what its for and its true in many places in the United States people with their 2acre lots are sitting there reading the nation magazine. I dont know. No rules or restrictions. But going back to why liberalism works, and this is a quote from Stephen Landsberg and you told us who he is in a minute here that you say Public Policy shouldnt be designed to advance moral instincts that they all reject every day of our lives. Host guest instincts about not having to put your money where your mouth is and is not pushing people around. Ive never liked being a boss myself, but there are some people that are much better at the administration then i am and if in a free labor market of course the person could leave if they dont like your management techniques or style but in any case, people shouldnt like being nasty. There was a bus driver this morning at the shuttle in ohare. He was real nasty and i said to him your life would be better if you treated your customers with respect. I had been on buses in chicago where the bus drivers were wonderful and he welcomes people onto the bus and would go through the snow and slush of chicago and is proud to get there on time and that is how we ought to live the way our mom told us to behave. Host are you still teaching at the university of chicago where the university of illinois. From 20 to 2015 but i highly recommend it to you all. Finishing my trilogy the economic and social history of the last few centuries and i finished this book that came out in the whole on why liberalism works and i have a new book coming out from chicago from the press which is a pop version of all of these cold leave me alone and i will make you rich. [laughter] you talk about your trilogy and this is the most recent quality. What is the definition . Guest the french word of course specialists to mean the leaders of the town merchants and manufacturers and so forth. It was before the phrase middleclass before common in the 1800 they started calling them in english middleclass. Before the basic idea there were priests, the nobility and then everyone else. And it was the last couple of centuries we started to make distinctions. My point is to argue against my friends on the left and the right who are contemptuous of business. The. People like my grandfather. He was a contractor and that is an honorable thing to do. The. It makes for a sweet society. There is the mythologies you see especially in the history of the soviet union anyone that thinks money is evil. What exactly is the problem here. Host to go to the virtues, however, quote, the christian gospels are surprisingly harsh by the standards of the rest of the worlds religious canon. Its not surprising therefore that in the 19th century, it invented the idea of socialism. Host guest it is a secularized version in many ways of the apocalypse of the revolution as understood in marxism. Its very similar to the band coming of christ. The fervor of ideology that when they were sent to the prison camp they thought it was okay because it must be th that the party knows that there is a similar attitude in some versions of christianity if the priest tells me im bad, im bad. Ive just reread the new translation of the new testament, the whole thing and its not that long. Its a short book and there is a socialist elements to it. Among friends this kind of equality and consumption is very sensible but it doesnt make sense in the larger society. It doesnt work when its about friends or family it works, socialism. Host you identify as a longtime agnostic and now you are a christian liberal, small though. What happened . Guest i changed gender as your audience might want to know in 1995 i was once donald and in the news after that there was something more i needed to look into so i went to the catholics and i didnt like that and went to the unitarians to pray to whom it may concern and then we found the episcopalian is on because we couldnt go on after the American Revolution and it was just it suited me very well. Right from the beginning of the church ochurch of england viewef as a middle road between catholicism and puritan. Host what is it about it that suits you is that the customs . Guest its the whole spirit. We are called the frozen shows because in virginia especially the upper class and new york for that matter, the upper class was episcopalian. Its claimed that in episcopalianism you dont need to believe anything, but you do the ceremonies. You come to church and do the mass. The. It is a flexible framework for searching. You dont have to believe to be a practicing nonchristian. Its the practice that matters. That is true of Economic Performance you dont need to be a theorist of the economy. To be an electrical contractor. The. I think that they are connected. Host lets go back to your trilogy disses the virtues i agree with my favorite marxist economist that education should be financed from the center and the care and early child care should be expanded and state financed. Corporate welfare should be eliminated and military expenditures cut a tiny fraction of the present level. And given to american the amerid tax laws should encourage men and women combined paid work with family and community work. We followers of adam smith are egalitarian. Is there a dot in there somewhere . Guest nancy was a professor at the university of massachusetts and should get the nobel prize. She was annoyed that i called her a marxist because she isnt an orthodox marxist. She is of the left and i was, once i was joined by a sociali socialist. I dreamt i saw joe last night. But i as i said i am a christian liberal which means that i acknowledge the responsibility that they have towards the poor. We cant just take a Country Club View and ive got my cadillac as well in the world so on a lot of the policy proposals nancy makes on the left, i agr agree. I may not quite agree with the scale she wants to do them on but we agree that we should help poor people and pregnant women and so forth there shouldnt be a fist in people status of an open hand held. That is consistent with what we call capitalists. One thing the sheer act of buying a cup of coffee as mutual advantages and both people are happy about it, the seller and the buyer, but furthermore, you will notice in your own life but if you make a habit of going to the coffee shop, eventually become. Commerce creates friendship the same way that a church does or college or High School Class or whatever people get together they are not hurting each other or forcing each other to do things. They are allowed to say no and out of. Com sport the french and 18th century called sweet commerce whereas the coercion is necessary for most activities of the stage, actually all. Youve got to pay your taxes and if you dont, we are going to put you in jail. The threats from the irs as so many of us do. Host you say you dont like the word capitalist or the philosophy. Guest the word capitalist was used and is modified to mean not just investor which is what they say around 1800 to mean this whole group of people who are the bosses and then capitalism became the characterization of the commercial societies. Its a terrible word academically, intellectually, scientifically, terrible word. Is convinced economist and marxists and everyone else at capital accumulation of is the spring of our commercial economy. It is necessary and that investment but the motive force comes from the spring and its been expanded as innovation. The. Its misleading because it looks at the capital and we want the literacy for other things that capital i thought was motivational, that it did thin things. If i were speaking in brazil a couple days ago to the bankers and they said maybe they dont like you choose among the creators, but you are not the creator. You say this is a good idea to. Thats why they first frame for menpoorman, then slaves and they women immigrants, catholics, people, whatever, right down to the remarkable freeing of transgender people. The. It had this amazing affect since 1800 it had the ability to buy stuff and go to the universities into someone had increased by a factor of 13. 3000 . Not 100 , 3000 . And that is from the free society. Host we are having any general sense a debate about capitalism versus socialism in this country. And this is i isnt the first te that we have had this. Guest its been going on since the middle of the 19th century. They say lets try socialism and we love you, bernie. Who can hate him, hes a very charming person. But he was a freshman at the university of chicago. We had more or less the same opinion about the capitalism. Ithat was a more accurate for scientific bespeaking that we wanted to overthrow capitalism. It was more systematic. I read half of the communist manifesto and recommended that was enough. Ive read a good deal and lenin was the hero of mine. We had the same opinion then and i learned stuff and he didnt. People say that he is consistent, yes, he is consistently wrong. We have tried socialism. Appropriately it works in the family. It works in a small group of friends and it should. I buy a pizza to share with five of my friends and they say i paid for this pizza, im going to eat it all. That isnt what friends do. Making it into a family doesnt work. That doesnt mean you dont have charity and dont want to help each other or that you are red in tooth and claw. That is until capitalists are and it isnt what made the economy rich which i established in the second volume of and its not the future or the past of our society which i argued in the third but. Also appearing was author and former Trump Administration official Sebastian Gorka in his book the war for the american soul. Heres part of the discussion from january earlier this year. Guest what waguest co. Whatn the Obama Administration is the idea, the policy platform that is the result of disenfranchisement. Remember john brennan had become the president cia director said there was and is the result of these factors. If that were true, half of india would be terrorists than half of china and they are not. As a result of the analysis, they developed this concept of when we find the bad guys we kill them and we will win. He had a tablet on which he had this socalled matrix on which the locations of individual masterminds would be shared with him and he would decide which ones we should kill today. Could you imagine eisenhower or churchill choosing the commander to kill, but isnt the job of the president. When we arrived in the white house, we inherited 420 obama holdovers in the council. Did you know how many works in the council under eisenhower . Ninetyfive and nobody can tell me that it was less complicated than the globe today. Under Ronald Reagan and was only 75 individuals. What they have done is replicated the government and made what should have been strategic and tactical and most important of all the midst of the ideology. Rich sounding engineering students dont become suicide bombers on 9 11 because they are uneducated. The head of al qaeda the Obama Administration said is irrelevant and if you want to understand where we are going, read the president s speech, read his incredible speech in warsaw where he talks about the enemy being evil. Its an evil ideology just as fascism works and the soviet union was in ideological threatd isnt about poor people is about those that subscribe to the jihad ideology. Host when you look at the newspapers and hear the broadcasts about what happened, there is a prediction that this could lead to world war iii. Guest it is quite stunning how in the last 72 hours world war iii, hash tag world war iii was trending on social media. What world do these people live . When somebody comes up with a criticism of an action the best way to start is to take politics out of it. What is the individual posing as the obverse saying we shouldnt have killed him . How is that better. His hands were drenched in the blood over 603 servicemen and women whove been responsible for the maiming of thousands of others this man that we knew according to explicit intelligence was on the cusp of initiating obligations in three Different Countries in the coming weeks that would have killed hundreds of u. S. Citizens leaving him alone to do his business is better than what world lacks a anybody that isnt cheering for when obama killed Osama Bin Laden and they took out the dot and told by the hellfire strike a need to examine their conscience because i dont care what your politics are or who you pray to come if you are an atheist, who you go to bed with, whats your skin color is coming you need to examine your conscience if you think that person didnt deserve to become a pile of ashes. Guest i love all the military and have special regards to at the war college in quantico i didnt know from the hole in the ground it was the summer of 2015 and he said mr. Trump is preparing for the full gop debate on National Security that was the focus of the debate of canada. What i consider meeting with him to prepare him for the debate and i said sure. I went to trump tower to then candidate Trumps Office and i sat down with him closer than we are at his desk. We had this incredible blue sky discussion from the civil war right up to isis to the Nuclear Weapons and halfway through the discussions he stopped the discussion dead and said i like him, tire him and he asked me to become a consultant to the organization and i prepared policy papers and breathes and eventually i got to know general mike flynn who handled the team and became a part of the official once there were two candidates left Hillary Clinton and donald trump i became a part of the official team and was offered the job of the Deputy Assistant for strategy which i started at 12 01 january 20, 2017. Host and he lasted how long . Why just seven months . Guest youd have to ask steve. I was on vacation in new england in the middle of august when a friend texted me and said have you seen the news and i said no i try not to be plugged in. I went to an area i could check the internet and i saw that he had resigned out of the blue. He was my immediate boss. I was the Deputy Assistant and without telling me, in the two months prior it had become clear that security advisor wasnt a fan of mine. I wasnt on the National Security council but i was always present for the meetings regarding isis, china, russia and i was being left off so i knew i was being boxed out and then my top cover resigned and i had a tough decision. With my wife and i we sat down and thought what do i do, do i stay in the white house with a pretty good salary paid for by the u. S. Taxpayers to be consistently boxed out by somebody that had issues with me or do i support the agenda from the outside and as i wrote my letter that you can read its available leftbrace fark. Com etc. Right now the forces are in a sentence in the white house with hr mcmaster being there and id like to serve you wonder outside and i believe i can do so. Mine is shaped by the belief where i sit isnt important. Its the agenda making America Great again called the shining city on the hill and i could best do that on the outside so its worked out in the last few years. Host the most recent book is billed or for americas soul. Why do you open the book with your daughter at Trinity College . Guest with one of the reasons i wrote the war for americas soul. She cleared it for me after i drafted it and my daughter graduated from Trinity College last may and they have been a ih four years for her involved in the accident that made the National News just before the term began, the semester began. There were children in a College Building and my daughter stepped out and as soon as she did, often disconnected and collaps collapsed. There were serious injuries and my daughter sustained note injuries. She persevered and was the captain of her team and had four different jobs in college running the coffee bar, being a Research Assistant and was invited to join a new institute called the Church Institute created by a handful of remaining professors. And they wanted to celebrate a to propagate the value is the sort of judeochristian civilization. That was the last straw i guess on the social justice in a few weeks before graduation, they took my daughters photograph and on social media and posters around the campus they put her name ancould hername and other d said this is the face of white supremacy. Why . Because she was my daughter and despite the fact that she had helped ethnic women, minority women when she was a Research Project on those that had been abused by their partners so when it came time to graduation i was very trepidations. I didnt want to cause a scene and i knew there would be some that were not Trump Supporters so when i arrived i didnt sit with my family. I sat under an oak tree so there wouldnt be any distractions from what should have been my daughter celebration. It was all fine until after the ceremony my daughter received her diploma, the caps were thrown in the air and i made my way back to my motherinlaw and my daughter and then i was separated from everyone. The little girl walked up to me and this is the opening of the war for americas soul. A girl walked up to me maybe 19yearsold, 85 pounds dripping wet. She looked me in the eye and said are you the sebastian that worked for donald trump in the white house. I smiled and extended my hand and said yes, thats me. In that case, f you you effing nazi. Id been through the mill in the white house, but i never had somebody that was in the most successful powerful nation in the world do that in front of a bunch of witnesses. Once i got my composure i said im not going to let this fly with my background. She will go back to her family, the mother, grandmother probably was standing there. I looked her in the face and said the hell do you think you are. My parents suffered in my father under communist dictatorship was arrested and tortured and imprisoned. Who the hell do you think you are to call me a nazi. The girls mother was shocked to and said did you really say that to this man and this is why i wrote this. The little girl in the freest nation of the world with a grin like the joker in batman looked at her mother and me and said yes, i did. That is frightening. Its frightening that according to the victims, 72 of american colonials would like to live a in a socialist country this after the fact we know if you read the book, at least 100 million human beings were exterminated in the name of karl marx and his communist ideology. So, i spent more than 20 years in the National Security domain. I specialized in the regular warfare and its strategy and now the last three years have been a damaging moment for me the scales and i realized the greatest threat we face is a falsification of history and indoctrination as a whole generation of americans. Host radicals appear in the war for americas soul. Rule number one live by the rule of personal destruction, treat your adversary as a human deserving zero respect, pardon me, or compassion. Host they used it very effectively. The socalled squabble. Perhaps the most influential individual with regards to american politics that nobody talks about. I reproduced elements of Hillary Clintons dissertation that she wrote when she was working. There is the original i read in the appendix in the war for americas soul. When you see the most since 1948 who moved the embassy to jerusalem and recognized jerusalem after the broken promises who has the closest relationship and you can imagine the minister of israel to call him an antisemite and racist the same person for the minorities for the hispanics and blacks in america since recordkeeping began those are the tactics. Its the triangulation that we were taught by Andrew Breitbart and what was left to us. You separate, isolated and destroyed it is the politics of personal destruction. Remember the past two years of the American Revolution and going back centuries. But never to this degree. Would it target children or president s of children. We didnt go after the first ladladies because they were weag the wrong shoes as they go up on the helicopters. Thats why when people talk about these syndromes there is a substance to back because the level of demeaning people to the point that you deny their humanity, that is very, very unhealthy. That is disturbing. You see that in the totalitarian regimes if you look at soviet russia and the 30s in germany. When you start to dehumanize if not to discuss policy issues but that leads to the road to the camps in the gulags and that is where i am convinced of the fact sadly the Democratic Party who has been taken over by the extremists how is it that you have the saying israel is evil and hypnotized the west theyver case government official. He was a mass murderer. Is he a government official, we are living in dark, dark times but as Ronald Reagan told us on the right i consider myself to be. We are happy and fueled by love, love of country, love of liberty and the icin what i see on the d that is another reason i wrote this it is a movement that has become defined and fueled by hatred there might be some psychological underpinnings but hatred that isnt a colonial force for the freest nation that has helped others in their freedom whenever the Democratic Party from the left and the industrial complexes tried to manufacture charges against the president whether it was with regards to the russian collusion or whether it is extortion and bribery in ukraine every single time it has resounded back onto them as my good friend who hosts the morning show in dc says it is reminiscent of the final scene in the hunt for red october when they launched the torpedoes and what happens, it goes back and it syncs his own vessel. The fact that Hillary Clinton and the dnc paid a former secret agent for the russian propaganda to use to spy on us in the campaign and then they come after us with connections to russia just the sweetest irony. The fact that they have accused the president of some kind of a malfeasance with ukraine and we have all seen the transcript which when Hunter Bidens son was taking home 1050 to 80,000 per from the corrupt Company Investigated by ukraine in which his fathers appointed they fired the prosecutor before he gave a billion dollars in all of these things circle back like a boomerang. Crowd strike is perhaps the one thing that democrats and hillary talk about the idea but they have great interest working in the ukraine connected to the dnc we need to get to the bottom of that but if you believe in justice we have good news for you. William barr, they are on the case and they are unstoppable so host how much of an influence is your philosophy . Guest great question. Its one of my favorite three books. I break it down a great deal in the book why we fight. If you are interested in the National Security and strategy, there are two authors you must be familiar with. The war and the chinese strategist the art of war because they complement each other word was never meant to be a bit of it is the most influential text on how the west is National Security and the system of the nationstates think about National Security and thats why its important in the context of friction and center of gravity and it breaks you out of your way of thinking and illustrates how they have different ways of thinking with regards to the National Security strategy is and the essential reading if you wish to understand even what iran and russia are doing because russia and iran are the foundation of irregular warfare and how you take down a more powerful enemy being resolved. If you want to start your life worried about National Security, start with that. Host ewart on with the author Sebastian Gorka. Caller something that has been bothering me that i think has been missed or hasnt been brought up, putin has played the Democratic Party to do his bidding if the democrats would have coalesced instead of attacking him all this stuff that we have been going through may have never occurred but he knew how stupid these people are and he played them like a fiddle. Guest that is the case when you have the most egregious examples. He is laughing into his cheerios whether he is being paid he is doing Vladimir Putins bidding in the idea that the president elect donald trump that has more than 200 russian ministries in syria by the forces and the man who instead of sending blankets to ukraine like obama did send javelin antitank missiles and that person is treasonous, they have returned a massive return on their investments even when they didnt pay these individuals. So, it is sad that remember ted kennedy had negotiations in the kremlin trying to elicit their assistance to undermine. That the Democratic Party was always on the side of the left, on the side of useful idiots and now they are accusing donald trump and conservatives truly beyond the pale. Host from the 2018 book why we fight, russia doesnt share americas interest. If they face its own threat especially from chechnya but that doesnt mean it is or can be. Host that is a look at some of the authors. To watch any of these programs in their entirety or the episodes from the past 20 years, go to booktv. Org. Host joining us now is bradley graham, the coowner of politics and prose bookstore is here and washington, d. C. Along with his wife. What has been the effect of the Coronavirus Crisis on your business . Guest it has been pretty severe on many retailers around