Next book tv afterwards, chief White House Correspondent provides a behind the scene look of the trump administration. Afterwards is a weekly Interview Program worth relevant discuss. They are incredible bookends. I was in my twenties working for the New York Post and assigned to city hall. There was a guy that had just become mayor named rudy giuliani. And there was this absolutely unbelievable story that had gripped new york city at that particular moment. I wasnt interested in but i was at the New York Post in all my editors cared about the news had just broken that Michael Jackson had just married lisa marie presley, Elvis Presleys daughter. They were married in secret , not seen in public yet and staying at trump tower. So when the news broke out all the paparazzi, curiosity seekers, new york city. And the New York Post. And Michael Jackson is at his peak of popularity at this moment. So the crowd around trump tower was so intense they put up police corridor around the block and people had to get across the street because to me people were trying to get in there to get a glimpse of the newlyweds. Not donald trump. No. Michael jackson and Elvis Presleys daughter but they are staying at trump tower i am at city hall nobody cares about city hall at this moment is particularly not at the New York Post so i think how can i get a piece of the story . I called up this number for the Trump Organization it was just a general number. I didnt know donald trump or have any connection whatsoever i was only at the post for seven or eight months as a new reporter in town i called the number and said can i talk to donald trump . And i was connected to his gatekeeper at the time the long time press secretary presumably an old member of the family and everything went through normal. I didnt know this at the time so i said i have a story to pitch to mr. Trump. Why would the most famous newlyweds in the world want to have their honeymoon at trump tower . She passed it on i got a call back almost immediately from trump himself i didnt know how he would respond but he said come over and can you come now . [laughter] im at the New York Post office at that point they were in Lower Manhattan on the other side of chinatown i tell my editor i got this and they say great and they send me with photographers and we hustled our way to midtown we were immediately let through trump was there we were brought up to his office and there is a photo in the book which is a little embarrassing. You look like the kid that you were at that time. [laughter] and i remember at the time he says let me show you around and let me show you why they are here. The story by the way we also have a picture of the front page article that was written of the secret honeymoon hideaway for michael and lisa marie it was massive coverage. I had five pages of insight we went around we met michaels bodyguards we saw the secret tunnels they got in and out the secret getaway car and telling me where everybody lived in trump tower all the famous people spielberg, the British Royal family, sophia lorren, we actually ran inside with arrows pointing to the apartments owned by these various people who were trying to be discreet. But it was Something Else in the middle of the tour he said you want to picture . I said i have my photographer that then he met do i want to take a picture with him. Nobody just stops in the middle of an interview and say lets get shot together or a selfie. [laughter] the pitcher was snapped you can see it in the book. Actually had this picture when i was living in new york 25 years ago and then when i moved to dc a few years later i threw in a box and it was only after trump became president i thought i wonder if i still have that picture and it is an amazing moment because what is pictured in the picture you looks exactly the same is a little heavier but he is wearing the same type of suits, long red tie, hair is essentially the same he has this expression i have seen in the thousand expressions i have seen but i was thinking as i was writing this book when i was almost done i got invited to meet with the president and that is the book and and there were some complaints of what i had done and also in the Washington Post over Labor Day Weekend by the way i know if they notice the story and had some things they wanted to raise and i described the scene as one of the modern moments in a time that you spend a lot of time there, you know as White House Press secretary, was brought in by the press secretary and the chief of staff Stephanie Grisham and Nick Mulvaney and with two of my colleagues on the White House Association board and we were brought in through the outer level of the oval office that was empty we were asked to sit the three chairs in front of the desk and then told weight and then mulvaney and grisham watched us in the oval office. You worked there i dont know how many times you were in the oval office alone, but i have never been alone. Doors were closed. Just the three of us and i cannot tell you exactly how long it was. Two or three minutes. It felt like it our. We sat here what are we doing . We are definitely being watched. We just sat there in silence then the president came back in and we had this meeting lasted upwards of an hour. I at one point sat there thinking here i am sitting across the desk from the president of the United States who is donald trump and 25 years ago almost to the day i had been with him in trump tower trying to find Michael Jacksons bodyguards and doing this gossip tour of celebrity apartments in his building. Who could have imagined that i would end up where i was and he would end up where he was. Here i was a really junior tabloid reporter in new york city. He was with a flamboyant developer and then 25 years almost to the day letter one later i am sitting across from that developer donald trump as president of the United States. Though whole story how we went from that moment to that final moment is really what front row at the trump show is about. There is a seductive quality that rings through all of this the one time to declare to be an enemy of the people but at the same time he is looking for approval and engagement and to have some kind of a relationship. And with that juxtaposition of that role that he plays and write about that in the book but he has a simultaneous quality and want the press to be fake news and we the people and then to be pals with you it is weird. It is fascinating because i had the incredible privilege to be a reporter to be a White House Reporter for the president i was only in there for a bit as a junior cnn reporter and asked to fill in but i remember being there with you during the chaos of the Monica Lewinsky scandal. And george w. Bush and barack obama and now this. Every one of those president s complained about press coverage they thought the press focused it was way too negative with not enough accomplishments of the administration that is standard operating procedure. But trumps attacks go far beyond any of that. You have the enemy of the people which is a phrase i spent time in the book the origins of the phrase was very ugly used by stalin and hitler during the french revolution to justify the beheadings of people by guillotine. Talk more about that part of the book and you do that at some length and then to go through what a noxious phrase that is if you look back at the history. Talk about that a little bit. I spent some time looking through the origins of the phrase and it was used quite prominently during the french revolution. That is the most significant place. People were beheaded as a resul result. Basically the justification was that people targeted by the law under which they were found guilty and beheaded the actual law uses that phrase and we of the people and i document the use of it journey on during the reign of terror when blood was flowing in the streets of paris. And then the next place i saw it was in germany that gave hitler his powers. I go back and find this article in the Associated Press of the New York Times and many other papers around the world in the lead paragraph the National Socialist party anybody that votes against this is an enemy of the people so nazis are using the phrase and then later by joseph stalin. Im not saying Donald Trump New the history behind the phrase but certainly it was pointed out by a lot of people that it had a dark and morbid and deadly history and he kept using it. So the whole notion creates the sense to be an aggressive reporter trying to hold those in power accountable that you essentially are a traitor to your country. I would argue its the exact opposite this is an essential part of this is what makes america great. But the flipside that you allude to is that this is a president who consumes more news than any other president he knows the reporters he reads the stories and watches the news coverage. Privately he said tivo was the greatest invention of mankind because he had all the shows on dvr that he watches and sees how he is being portrayed. At one point phil rucker a very good reporter at that press conference the president made reference to a story that was written before the New York Primary and 2016 about the Staten Island ferry that he went and interviewed people and found out a lot of people really like donald trump and wrote a story about it. I didnt even see the story. Trump saw the story and read it now a couple years earlier and he becomes president and he sees phil rucker not exactly a household name by the way. A great reporter but he says that story about the Staten Island ferry is a wonderful story. It is mind blowing. He knows the reporters. I have known him for a long time. But he knows most people in that room by name, what they have done. Many of them have probably got phone calls by them to complain or to offer something up. Barack obama and people on the right say the media was infatuated with obama although the white house complained bitterly about the White House Press. Every president since George Washington has complained about press coverage there is nothing new about that. But obama would come into the briefing to do a press conference and i swear he had no idea who was in the room. I remember one point there was a list of questions on who to call on from his press secretary. But that was a practice with obama i remember looking at the list he reason name of the name of the ap reporter and of course they are sitting right there in front in the apc to think he would know the reporter but he had no idea. George w. Bush, he knew that people and the personalities and the camera operators because they were with him on the campaign. But trump consumes the news and is fascinated by it and it relishes it he has marveled sometimes how many times he dominates the front page of the New York Times, paper he likes to attack but so proud of the fact he is on the front page. Even if it is negative. It is a fascinating dichotomy. It is a certain lovehate relationship but you mentioned you are permanently involved with White House Correspondents associate niche association with a leadership position but why hasnt the press corps more aggressively challenge this war he has declared . He has declared you to be the enemy of the people why have you thought that more aggressively . First of all there has been fighting back on that when he first use the phrase, i was anchoring our sunday show this week on that sunday i did a thing at the end of the program where i pointed out the history of the phrase and pushed back aggressively. But doing that is not easy because its not the role no journalist feels they want to be researching the news that at is part of a dilemma. And not the resistance we are not the Opposition Party that is the phrase steve bannon was using and then trump latched onto that we do have to push back on this especially my role as representing the White House Press corps its dangerous when it is over the top it needs to be called out there was an incident there was an event of a pro Trump Organization that one of the president s properties in florida. And they had an exhibit where they played a video clip from a movie showing somebody in a Church Killing newspeople and democrats. It was horrific. Youve got to call this out. It is actually dangerous. We saw with the guy who sent to the pipe bombs to cnn. There will be people and i have said this to the president directly and i recount that at the end of the book that there are sick people who will take these words literally into heart and hurt people and its dangerous and it is particularly irresponsible coming from the biggest bully pulpit of all. You raise that with white house staff and the press secretary and other people. Yes. But you have to recognize with this white house is, another theme of the book, the donald trump does listen to people but ultimately he goes in his own direction. Sometimes he takes the advice and sometimes he doesnt but he truly is his own chief of staff john kelly tried to change that for a while. He is his own National Security advisor we saw that with john bolton and the president goes off to be diametrically opposed on several major hot button issues he has his own press Secretary Communications director. Talk about the press briefin briefing. Obviously that something i care about having done many myself but turning the press Briefing Room into his platform to deliver a daily message. So why do we need to have a Daily Press Briefing . What is the role of the press secretary . What you need as you are covering the white house . We went a year without having any briefings by a press secretary. Occasionally like mulvaney came in. I think we just passed the oneyear anniversary of no press briefing by the press secretary that i find astonishing. It is. And you make a point that is valid and important, which i want to get to but my argument about the need for a press secretary having regular press briefings. We are in an extraordinary moment right now where the president is doing his own briefings every day that we are an extraordinary time of crisis. But i think it is important to see the person who was speaking on behalf of the executive branch to come out and take questions every day from all comers. Even though in the news garden admitted the the information isnt all that useful some is more than others, its important symbolically to send a message to the country and to the world the most powerful person in our government is accountable. We dont have question. Like the british Prime Minister has but this is speaking on behalf of the executive branch who since erin takes questions and some of them are uncomfortable. But you make another point which is the process of preparing for that briefing with clarify aid policymaking and thats an interesting point. In the preparation to do that briefing every day requires you to go around the government to talk to cabinet officials and other senior officials in the white house to get real clear information. You know you will get the questions. The process of getting the right answer leads to better policy. So with clinton i was a here is the answer i am supposed to give today. And say that your policy so he would pick up the phone and call someone and say we have to get this right what are we doing on this issue . It improves the functioning of government. The reality of doing that briefing is much more than taking care of the press giving what it needs every day but also to have that reverberating effect of government because people have to come up with better answers if you come up with better answers you will get better policy. I have a very strong advocate of doing that. But to deal with your questio question, certain times it turns into performance art. And i wonder if the whole encounter with what is on tv and sitting on the front ro row, doesnt make it less useful . Is that and impediment . What should we do about that . Is not easy to ask a Television Personality but what do you think . And we have disagreed on this point we have talked in the past suggesting the briefings might be more useful if not televised. I am sure there is an element and i certainly looked to my colleagues. We are trying to do a serious things. And they play to the cameras and it happens and it is annoying when it does but again, there is symbolic value in the world seeing this play out that this is the way our system works. Nobody is above the law. Nobody is above public scrutiny. Keep in mind, 49 seats in that Briefing Room its a very small room is you know. And now being spaced accordingly we have had to reduce that and say people cant stand in the aisles anymore for obvious Public Health reasons. But a lot of people watch the briefings in realtime including reporters who cant be there. People watching cspan. They may agree with me on this. I think it is important they are televised. Thats not to say theres not an Important Role for background briefings and was not on camera but having the press secretary go out on a regular basis is a valuable exercise. Cspan i used to people say i was up in the middle of the night watching your briefing on tv nursing my baby. [laughter] that we were reduced to that. At one point before we began to televise the briefings thats the only way you could see a briefing. So first at the state department my briefings were on cspan late at night sometimes people would say i was watching you at 2 00 a. M. By the way we talked a lot about the disappearance of the white house briefings but what we have seen over a big trump on dash over the trump era is a long period of time would go by without the state department. Im a former state Department Reporter and when you were there for the spokesperson that was a substantive briefing that was televised. But they are important with a whole different set of questions and the idea of those going away and i was pentagon reporter for some time and then long periods of time without a pentagon briefing is not healthy. I told president clinton one time there are three great spokesman jobs in washington. Idols press secretary, state Department Spokesperson and pentagon spokesperson you gave me two of those but the best was state department. He was curious about this why do you say that . Because it is much more substantive. You dont get a lot of political questions or with stuff that happens with the white house. And as you know they will stay on the subject and go through it and peel the onion back layer by layer and then they say next subject and you go on. So with that substance that is not the way the political theater at the white house is not the same. And to not have those detailed substantive briefings, we lose something as a result of that. And i wish there was more of an outcry to members of the press and that they know that is an important part of the democracy. I love covering the state department for that very reason. And those briefings with the spokesperson with ap and mohammed and readers and just a smart group of reporters and i would go in there. I always learned about the worl world. Sometimes you could see it with those going back and forth so who knows more . Im not sure. [laughter] you are referencing richard. [laughter] yes. Actually he was my tutor and taught me how to do state department briefings. A wonderful guy and i remember. We made him and ambassador. I think he went to cyprus and then to hong kong after he had served because i remember going at one point we were making diplomatic assignments and said take care of this guy because he is like one of the very best of the best. A career public servant. Donald trump may refer to him as the deep state but those are the quality people we have got doing these career jobs in government. So to have them be disparaged or denigrated is a real loss. I hope there is more of a resistance to that by the press and people who care about the role government does play in our lives. Now im on my hobbyhorse. I agree. Talk a little bit you have some interesting stories about your relationships with sean spicer and others but how do you view the role of the press secretary . You talk about how important it is to be accountable, but you write about some of the personal relationships you have had and maybe share some of that with one from the book. Spicer is interesting because i have known him for a long long time. I considered him a friend. He was somebody, i knew him obviously for the rnc but also press secretary on capitol hill. At one point he was involved in a group of secretaries and i was invited as a young cnn reporter to talk to them. I actually shook his hand on National Television wants. And the spokesperson for the dnc made a bet around the elections and i shaved their heads. It was a great thing and he asked me to do that. And to be the press secretary the white house and i called him to congratulate him and say is somebody who is cover the place for a long time and worked with a lot of press secretarys, if he needs any help or advice how to do with the press corps, im happy to talk any time. Almost immediately when they got into the white house sean became a totally different person maybe i didnt know him as well as i thought i knew him but obviously is a second most difficult job in washington right now. The first is chief of staff. It could go either way. [laughter] but it was pure hostility almost from the start was that sean or him reflecting what his boss the president of the United States was demanding of the staff . I will tell you people are surprised to hear me say this when Sarah Sanders came and it was an entirely different situation. She tangled with the press with her press briefings. In some ways every bit as controversial as sean, but Sarah Sanders worked very hard to perform some of those functions as a Traditional Press secretary with a constructive relationship with the White House Press corps. I found her very pleasant to deal with on those logistics and the matters you have to deal with especially as the White House Correspondents association with foreign trips , given take over access to the press. She was responsive, she acted much more like a Traditional Press secretary. I found that a very constructive relationship with sarah state on sanders. Sean was pure hostility from the number one he had the one press conference actually i dont know what it was but he came into the Briefing Room right after the inauguration the night after to tell everybody about crowd size. I reach out to him immediately after. My colleague was there for abc. I was in new york. It was a saturday night. I was not in the room but i was watching. Two things that horrified me about that performance. One is that he said at least three things i could document that were verifiably false. Second, as offensive to me that you may appreciate this that he left the room without taking a single question. That is somewhat sacred that is a room for giveandtake with journalists. A press secretary tell me if im wrong come i never witnessed a press secretary comment speak from the podium and not take a single question. Have you ever seen that . No. I have one great story about the abc White House Correspondent britt hume. I had a lot of briefings and had taken over my role in the 19 nineties at the white house. He came up to my office and said youre the most political person we have ever had at the podium. That we usually just get information and facts and content that you are in more political space. That had a huge impact on me. I toned it down after that. But what you are describing is this relationship that exists. You are there to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. So that symbiotic relationship between the press corps and the people at the white house is really and important functioning part of democracy. I think a lot of people appreciate or know about that but your speaking to more of those elements and i am surprised that relationship you had with sean. What about the Current Press secretary . Stephanie . Do you have any relationship . I think stephanie is is a very tough circumstance even greater. You never see her. If i ran into her on the street i dont think i would recognize her because shes not public personality. She on paper is the most powerful press secretary we have ever had she has three titles spokesperson for the first lady now press secretary and Communications Director. By the way that cannot work. Those are two different jobs. I have talked about this a lot. The Communications Director at white house is like the business analogy is Product Development thinking about what will be on the menu were what we will do a week from now were down the road. That is one job. The press secretary is retail sales. You have to go out and sell the job every day and they are just to incredibly different and complicated jobs and i dont know how you can do both of them and then she has the additional responsibility to be the first lady spokesman. In some ways i pity her but also i dont think thats a functional way to organize president ial communication. On top of that she comes at a time when the president has decided radio briefings by his press secretary are no longer useful and doesnt want them. Because i am the man. I have a lot of sympathy for the position she is in. I will say this about Stephanie Grisham, during this particular moment that has been difficult to be covering the story and be at the white house but with the coronavirus crisis, i think she has dealt very constructive lead to work with me in the White House Correspondents association to make sure we can continue to cover the story safely and to take the necessary steps. Is not easy. Its difficult. We want to be there and covering the story. Imagine just two weeks ago , you still had all the press working at the white house and briefings at any given briefing there could be 100 people packed into that room. Theres 49 seats but in the trump era if anything is there it is more crowded than you could imagine. And imagine at that point multiple people tested positive you can literally shut down the entire White House Press corps being forced into quarantine and then nobody can cover the story plus you have sick people. I have worked very closely actually with her and her office to say what can we do . We will voluntarily as a press corps reducer numbers. And do it in a way that is responsible allowing people to be there and do the job but doesnt endanger somebody. Weve had Temperature Check checks, doing regular cleanings rather aggressively. It is very tough situation but how do you do those three jobs . Also there is always tension between east and west wing first lady and the president. Tell me about it. [laughter] may be in the Clinton White house on occasion. [laughter] so then its hard to imagine and not being able to speak publicly but after that first performance from sean, he came back on monday and held a press conference and this time he did a little better they lower the podium a little bit that made him look taller. He said the president did not like his suit. When he called on me i asked him a question which by the way i asked was exactly the same question before that with sean there was a real need. So on saturday can you qualify the nature of your job. Is it always to tell the truth room that podium as far as you know it . He said yes. But for some reason, he took offense to that that i was questioning his integrity. And you write about that in the book. And to obviously regularly deal with them and those interactions were hostile and there are some pretty dramatic scenes. I had the same encounter once with the venerable White House Correspondent dinner and she wants asked me is it ever appropriate can you liar do you always have to tell the truth but sometimes you have to tell the truth slowly. I got in trouble for saying that but if there is going to be an attack but that is the question to have the attack on Osama Bin Laden and you knew that would happen you all need to hang around. And then just to figure out and those that are aimed at the truth that you will not be completely forthcoming. And it is a real challenge to be in that position of knowing things that you cant really say and you cant live. So it is very difficult. And fascinating chapters and to tackle what is in this great book. My goal writing this book you want to have reporting that nobody elses one has had with the administration. And then wanted to convey and to be part of this as a reporter during this extraordinary time. And with a wave of the campaign and to into the white house and then to sit around and all my god. What happened here. And to be exhilarating of the Public Interest of all things related to this white house and anything else i have covered. For those that love the president and fascinated by what has happened. And with the arc of the story of the spotlight and incredibly bright on the white house. And what thats like day today. With fairly and objectively with you in your profession how does this play out . And then to start with day number one in the white house there is so much i needed to understand about trump before january 20th. And what i loved about writing it was diving back into that. Of time. For instance i happen to be in the oval office two days after the election when donald trump for the very first time met personally barack obama. They had had this drama played out with a private previous five or six years and the White House Correspondents dinner trying to give people a sense of how it works of what we take for granted and what was where and how do they get there but as you know and those organizations take turns and it happened to be my turn and a photograph and actually took a lot of photos at that moment. And to put together that section and writing the captions is almost like a separate book. So that pool spray so when the press is brought into the oval office to take pictures of those public statements and then to be ushered out. We know how that works but the press pool assembles by the rose garden to bring in a minute or two then we quickly leave. On the press pool and we waited to go in and we were out there for about an hour waiting to go win to see the president elect that never happens is just the two of them. And someday there will be a great play written about that. Of time. Those two men alone in the oval office shocked the world and we are outside nobody expected a quick meeting only 20 minutes. So we are waiting and waiting and at one point i see Jared Kushner and the incoming soninlaw. And to walk around the track. And then to come back again how long is that track and then to take another look and then to look at the rose garden when there was nobody working for the trump campaign. And his caddie a former ralph lorenz model and a spokesperson for the ivanka product line. And then i look over to see dan and with the twitter and Instagram Account and the original spokesperson now back in live action and the couple of the others across the rose garden and then to take selfies. I dont think any of them had ever stepped foot in the white house before. With any capacity. Here they are coming i in, basically about to take the place over but nobody could believe what happened including the president elect trump. So i actually shot a video. I couldnt put a video in the book but once we were finally called into the oval office. Walking in. It is wild to see. Im right up against the couch 1 foot and a half from president obama, 5 feet from donald trump and then i take a few still pictures. I saw a side of trump i had never seen before or sense. The first time i ever been in a room he wasnt calling all the shots. And trump seems to me at that moment humbled by the moment. Maybe freaked out. He just spent an hour or so with the president of the United States describing the real challenges yes he won the election someday we will learn the contents of that there has been some description of that that obama apparently said north korea you have to pay the most attention to. And to the best extent possible what happened both in that meeting and also around the white house on that day. It is a singular day in american history. And some of the stuff in my New York Post days those key moments you cant cover everything but the moments that i have something unique to say either through reporting i have uncovered that hasnt been out there before that i personally experienced that i have unique perspective. Maybe you saw it play out. But i tried to bring something that is a perspective that nobody else can have. This is a great conversation its a great read and as we wrap up here what is the most surprising thing that you wrote about as you did the book . What is the one thing that you say im surprised im saying this in the book . This in the b . Jonathan there is many ways that work very thoughtful about this. It he reached out to other former chiefs of staff, and read a book about the job of chief of staff any kind of learned from lessons from that bulletin interestingly, i found out that he actually had recommended a book called the first street madness. It was a book that makes the case that some of the greatest leaders in history have been mentally ill. And some of the worst leaders in times of crisis have been people who work eminently sane. So this was really unusual. We can ask why you can recommend such a book. But actually reached out to the author of the book in the book is written in 2011. So as before 2012 so as before trump came on scene. An ace obviously not part of it. The perfectly sane and stable guy, completely unable to deal with the insanity of the rise of multi germany. Winston churchill came in though is a mild mental illness. In mcclellan, the general mcclellan, was an upstanding great, army officer perfectly sane. And completely unable to deal. An example holick u. S. Grant was printed in german was was out of his mind. See five anyway, there was an interesting thing. On the very cheerful note, who in the book chat, is a great great book. And you provided so many good personal insights but i hope you get a lot of opportunity to talk about the book and share some of your experiences and talk about some of the things that you see the book. It really is terrific. Jonathan thank you mike and i just want to say one last thing, virtually everybody agrees about when it comes to talking about the job of the White House Press secretary as a model for the job, the guy who is the absolute model of how to do it right is michael curry. Mike thank you very much. The tradition goes back quite a ways. But thank you for saying that. This program is available as a podcast, all afterwards programs can be viewed on a website and booktv. Org. Julius down book tv is bradley gresham. He is the coowner of politics and prose bookstore along with his wife. Mr. Wright him what is the effect of the corir