Serious readers. This made good evening ladies and gentlemen. And welcome to the yale bookstore. We are very pleased to have with us this evening doctor Jennifer Hirsch who is a professor of socio medical science at Columbia University who will be reading from and discussing her new book, sexual citizens, landmarks. You start to feel distressed by what im sharing obviously its fine to get up and take a break. The National Sexual assault hotline is 18656 hope. Its 1800656 hope. Austin was a sweet student, the story of bostons hot summer night had sex with his girlfriend is the sexy story in the book. Thats not the story im going to tell, sorry. But he was a good guy, he was the kind had developed a series of nicknames for the kind of orgasms his girlfriend had. He was committed to making sure that sex is something that felt good for her, too. But austin also sexually assaulted someone. He told us a story about a night freshman year he was in a room with his roommates girlfriends roommate. A roommate and his girlfriend, two people get shoveled into the same bedroom together. The girl was pretty drunk and she said to him that she wasnt interested in doing anything but when he started school he was really anxious, he thought he was behind his peers like everyone had more sexual experience than he did. So he got into her bad and he started to touch her body and then he thought to himself, this isnt the thing and so he stopped. And when austin told us that story, he became distraught. Because it was in the telling of that story that he realized that what he had done was Sexual Assault and it was hard for him to put together what he had done what she knew was wrong with the fact that he thought he was a pretty good person and he thought it people sexually sell people as bad people and i think thats one of the questions were speaking to in the book, the fact that people can do things that are very harmful to other people without necessarily being bad people. The whole like bad person good person thing has surrounded the conversation about campus Sexual Assaults and we bring a very different to the project. Its not about fear, its not about punishment. So, so much of the conversation about campus Sexual Assault has focused either on a judo vacation, sort of like we are going to punish our way out of this idea, or on the idea that the perpetrators are sociopaths and if we could only identify those views sociopathic men we could at least catch them and then campuses would be safer spaces. But if you think about driving, think about all of the effort that goes into teaching young people how to drive so they can do its a pretty dangerous thing which is to move into town vehicle around the World Without hurting other people, theres drivers ed and theres road design and theres car engineering, theres many systems and. So, they faced socialized with students as they went about their daily lives, on the bus up the athletic fields and in the dining halls and in the dorms and at parties and in religious spaces. Wherever students went there also went to our research team. Never hiding their selves, they werent spying, they identified themselves as researchers and went to a lot of parties. So, we interviewed the students, they did participant observation and looked at how students talked about sex and consent its all in the context of a much larger project. Which for coats reflected and which was funded by Columbia University. There was a giant shift project which had two surveys, the that Engagement Program and then its based on the research that research, spending time with and talking to students as they go about their daily lives. I me tell you another story, when gwen was a tall, very attractive white woman. When she came to new york she settled right into new York City Club life which she really enjoyed. She told her she came into the interview with a list of stories she wanted to tell us. There good stories. They didnt feel necessarily like good stories when we heard them. She would meet men, be list actors and not very famous athletes and she was very clear, she sat on her own sexual boundaries and she would go back to her hotel rooms with them and she did not want to have sex so she would describe it, she would give them a blow job to get out of there. And for her, that was a self protective escape, but it made us think, what is the feeling of indebtedness that she felt like she owe them a blow job. She shared with us two stories are being sexually assaulted. The first was freshman year when her roommates were encouraging her to like data guy on campus, just try that. And she wasnt super psyched about it but there was a freshman or senior who was into her so she thought at least there is a senior self i have to go out with a college guy, at least thats impressive. And she had in her mind a sort of mental map of how it will go. She said this is going to be like this slow production as she described it. On the first date will make our own, may be go to second base come on the second day i let him finger me, were not going to have sex until the third day, she was very clear as you mentioned in her mind but that wasnt what he was thinking. And so he was pretty emphatic when theyre back in her room that he wanted to have sex and she managed to convince them that they were not going to have sex and he could just leap over and that would be nice to cuddle together and then she woke up in the nine and he was helping her leg. And shes like thats gross what are you doing and so he stopped in the next day she was discussing it with her mom and her mom is like he sexually assaulted you and she rejected that label and shes like no it wasnt Sexual Assault on her roommate also said it was Sexual Assault. Karen gwen is mulling the story and she said the next time was at the end of one of her early years in school after people were not entirely moved out but she was one of the last people in the dorms and some guy who she described as scummy l. A. Club model promoter guy said he had some really good pot and he was going to come up town and they were going to go to Morningside Park and get stoned together. That seem like a fun thing to do on a hot summer day. They go to the park and smoke a little and then go back to the dorms and he wants to make out when shes not that into him. Shes like im good. And he was not good. So he tried to force the issue and they were back in her room and he was grabbing at her. It was kind of scary as she is trying to convince him that he had to leave and he was like im going to tell the guard that we smoked pot. In she said im going to tell the guard that you tried to rape me. She definitely had the trump card there. She managed to get him away but she was really shaken by the experience. Again, she called her mom to talk about it and in talking with her mom she said she realized maybe it wasnt so bad what happened to her. She said will really nothing happened, he just said some bad things to me and he did say bad things to her but nothing happened, im okay. So comments in that second experience that she started to realize that she didnt owe anyone anything. He was emphatic. He said i came all the way up town and im not even could have an orgasm and she said yes you came all the way up town and youre not can have an orgasm. That was the move moment when she moved to thinking to herself when someone who owed her something to get out of here and that is a core idea in the book is the idea that sexual citizenship that people have the right to have the kind of Sexual Experiences they have and also not to have the kind of Sexual Experiences they dont want to have ants, other people have the same rights. In general we found that heterosexual men have been socialized to be very intensive to their own right to pleasure a not so intensive to other peoples rights to sexual selfdetermination and that women, heterosexual women really cared about what they owed other people and to be less certain of their own right to sexual selfdetermination including their right to say no. So, the. Is not to say it was quinns fault that she should have had a better idea of her own sexual citizenship, but rather the. Is to think about what kind of world are we building where a beautiful, confident, other with effective in the world young woman feel so indebted to other people for pleasure and what kind of world are we building where someone home someone elses leg in the middle of the night even if they after they said they dont want to have sex. Who raise, now it is wrong with that person but who raise that person not to know better . So instead of thinking about campus Sexual Assault is a problem that is the fault of campuses, we widen the lens out to say, its all of our responsibility. And that includes families and faith communities in schools and came back to the driving metaphor making sure that people drive safely is not only the responsibility of one person. When parents talk with their kids about driving they dont sit them down and explain to them how spark plugs work. Like thats not how you teach someone to dry. And, you also dont teach someone to drive by just teaching them about stop signs and red lights which is sort of what the focus on consent does. So instead grant driving is a complex Human Behavior and it involves being able to be attentive to a lot of input at once. I dont want to shock you, but thats pretty similar to sex sexually. We need to do that same kind of training so people can be prepared to accomplish a complex interaction without harming other people. One thing thats useful to think about is the role of glenns mom and all of this and how to how much support she got from her mom, how important her mom wasnt being the person she could turn to when she needed to figure out what she was struggling with. She would not have ever been able to speak with her mom if she thought her mom is going to judge her for having sex. Also we didnt have a lot of stories about dads doing this in the book. Another takehome is the need for dads to step up into a a little bit more of the emotional labor around sex is specifically about child rearing in general. So one more story before i wrap up and we chat. So this is the classic story that you might think of when you think about campus Sexual Assault, lucy was a freshman going to boarding school, very protective conservator boarding School Environment and she had not had much chance to socialize plus like a lot of columbia studio and she was doing what she needed to do to get into a highly reflective school. She wanted to drink and lose her virginity and be popular, she and her roommate went to a bar freshman week where they met two seniors. They were so excited to be gaining attention from the seniors and so the bouncer had let the freshmen and with their fake ids because thats what bars do, they let pretty girls in when they have not very good fake ids. So, the guys bought them drinks on the sea was pretty drunk and pretty excited to be hanging out with scott. Scott said you want to hang out at my fraternity and she was like, sure. They stumbled up amsterdam avenue in the summer night. Scott was a college student, he lost his keys they stood out the fraternity waiting to be let in. Eventually the other girl catches up with lucy and did the bystander training so she wanted to keep an eye on her friend because clearly something was going to happen. So scott and lucy going to the fraternity with a friend, nancy. Scott asked if they want to drink, say yes, and the fraternity the alcohol is kept on the second floor. The way they respond to that is by keeping it upstairs. So they went upstairs and he makes them drinks. Lucys friend passed out immediately and didnt touch her drink and then scott said to lucy, do you want to go see my room and they had been making out often on and she wanted to see his room and was enjoying seeing and spending time with him. They went upstairs to his room, he started to take off her pants and she said no and he said, its okay, but it wasnt okay because he raped her in didnt listen to her. And so that is the classic story that you think of when you think of a Sexual Assault on campus. And if you only think about that in terms of scrapping a man and lucy being a woman you capture part of it because he was bigger than she was, but he was also a senior and he was also in a space that he controlled. Not just in the building that he lived in surrounded by friends but also up on the third floor in a place where she had never been added an institution where he had been for three years. And knew all the rules and knew what College Students do and what College Students dont do and where she was new and unfamiliar with a lot of things. One of the things we do is we complicate the ways in which you might think about power and we show how there are lots of different ways you need to think about power in order to understand what we could change to prevent campus Sexual Assaults. So, we talk a lot about race in the book and the ways in which the racial landscape of campus produces Sexual Assaults. Every single black woman that we spoke with in the interviews, every single one had experienced unwanted sexual touching. And thats not just a Sexual Assault problem thats a Racial Justice program. We talked with and described in the book the queer assault students experience. We tells stories of women assaulting men which is a part of the story that is really told how waste tell the stories from the perspective of the assaulters whose words you really here except in a quote room where there insisting on their innocence. There some assaulters who did not show up to participate in our study, so the people whose sociopathic lay her harming their peers did not come to be interviewed for obvious reasons but there were three kinds of assaulters who stories we tell in the book. They are the assaulters, one of them starts the story come i put on a tie, so i knew were going to have sex. Then he proceeds to tell a story being invited to a Sorority Formal by a girl who did he didnt particularly like. He just was not that into her but he was from a high prestige sorority and he was excited to be excited to one of the two sororities. He had an Early Practice the next day so he didnt drink, she drank a lot and was so drunk at the end of the night in the pouring rain that he brought her back to his room because he could not figure out how else to get to bed in time to get up early for his practice and then he described to us having sex with her as she went in and out of consciousness. She was very drunk. Because for him its possible he was a terrible person and was just putting on a story and recounting to us but if he knew it was a bad thing he would not have told us. So he told us a story of assaulting her none what he seemed to think was doing was just coming through on an obligation. She invited him on a formal informal frequently involves sex. Its true, unless you explicitly go to a formal was someone as friends its understood to be consent to sex. In a way its problematic that part of what we do in the book is layout how students actually have sex instead of how we wish they had sex. This is type one, the oblivious assaulter. An act of entitlement. There are students who, like austin who in the course of telling the story come to label what they did as assault and then there are some students who know that what they do whats an assault of our very troubled by it and had never figured out anyone to talk with about it. So they came into tell us a story in the hopes that other people knowing about it would perhaps do some good. So those are some of the stories of assaulters that we share. By way of conclusion, willie really remembering that the book is about prevention, one key takehome is that schools, faith communities and usurping organizations need to do more than just be places where children are safe from being assaulted. They need to step up as stakeholders and we need to ask them to step up as stakeholders and thinking about the roles they can play in Sexual Assault prevention. Its very important to do this before college. We found in the survey that a quarter of the women who participated in the survey had been assaulted before they started college. Not raped but experience some form of unwanted nonconsensual sexual contact. Thats a lot. And thats a ricks factor for being assaulted in college. And so the prevention work needs to start before hand. We also found in that same survey that woman who had gotten Sex Education that included training on how to say no to sex they did not want to have, which is not abstinent sex only education its good Sex Education, was half as likely to be raped. Thats a really big effect size. Thats as effective a vaccine as the flu shots is for flu. And we spend a lot of effort making sure everyone gets the flu shot. We need to make sure everyone gets sex ed. Thats part of what its going to take to get us to hurt Sexual Assault. Its not by itself going to be the thing that keeps all Sexual Assaults from happening, but it is a way to teach people to not assault other people. Its not sex ed come is not just good for preventing people from being assaulted i could help them learn about sex and healthy relationships to help them keep from being the assaulter. Parents obviously need to step up and raise children who know better than assaulting people and that involves matches telling in the way that you dont just tell your kids dont crash the car you actually teach them to dry. So teaching your children how to not be in assaulter involves the basic messages about how to be a decent human being. When your friend stepped on someones foot you tell them not tell them to apologize but ideally youd teach them not to step on other peoples feet. Think about oral hygiene. Like every night you watch your kids as they brush their teeth and you dont trust them to tell them if they brush their teeth you watch them because you know theyre sneaky. The same level of effort not just around Sexual Health and safety are wearing condoms and making sure your kids have whatever kind of pregnancy prevention method they need but talk team to them about sex figures and relationship and what sex is going to mean to them in their lives, those are the values and conversations that parents need to be having with people and then a final messages, there is a legislative message here, too. The need to movement has been amazing for keeping the problem of Sexual Violence on the front burner and has not always had such a clear policy agenda. There is a lot of evidence with comprehensive sex ed works and yet theres so much variability from state to state. So, everybody should the first thing they should do is call the state legislature and demand that they provide comprehensive Sex Education. We know thats part of building contacts where theres lots of Sexual Assaults on campus. Thats it. Lets talk. [applause] im really curious, do you have any numbers sores statistics about how many men were young men and women do good have unwanted sexual advances in college or even in the country every year . The rates that we found on the columbia campus are pretty similar to the rates that have been shown by campuses across the country. So we found that by graduation one in three women had experience nonconsensual sexual contact which is not always right. It can be unwanted touching but that can be very scary and about one in six men had experience not consensual sexual experience. Those are pretty much the numbers that have been shown in survey Research Across the country and i think its important to note the rates of Sexual Assault are higher for women in the same age group are not in college. Its just that theres a lot of attention on women in college and its easier to survey because theyre all in one place. Those are the numbers. And so thats a problem that theyll face. I have a followup. So, you mentioned there are two incidences in which you had a senior and then a and you outright said that because of the unequal power dynamic that can lead to cases in which some people think they are entitled to some sort of sexual experience. Out of that one out of three people that has the one of the three women that has not unwanted sexual encounter, what percentage of that our people from lets say the same class like freshman and freshman and junior and junior and sophomore and sophomore as opposed to senior in freshman et cetera. That is the question i would answer using the survey research. People talk about, i guess i have a non answer to your question. But, we do know and this is widely remarked on that the beginning period freshman years known as the red zone because its a period of a lot of vulnerability. One of the things we call attention to in the book is the role of age based power disparity. And so, women because its typical for women to have intimate relationships with men who are older, first year women have the most possible partners in the campus social world where a senior men have the most possible partners. The takehome for us in terms of prevention is that men, in particular older men and in particular older, wealthy white men need some work in acknowledging their own social power. If you think about the story i told you about lucian scott, i dont know if scott was a good person or bad person. We didnt interview scott area but in that instance where lucy said no and he said, its okay, he was not seen her as a person. He was probably the most charitable interpretation was that he was unaware of his own power. And so an important part of our prevention work needs to be to help the people on campus who are more powerful see that power and to engage with them in a conversation about checking themselves in a way that they dont feel attacked. Its not their fault they were born white men come and its not their fault they were born into a wealthy family but by being a guyana canada goose code and being on the third floor and Inter Fraternity there in a position where they are vulnerable to assaulting someone. If they are drunk theyre even more likely to do that. So helping those young people think about how to move safely through the World Without hurting their peers, that something we could do. I know the research is ongoing in the process is ongoing, but you have anything specifically set up post the writing of this book . We have like a jillion campuses. Im like week to week in my suitcase not really focused on after the book. I have really enjoyed the high school talks i have given and i would like to continue even after bookstores are no longer interested in hosting a sound like to continue talking with young people and parents about what is the worst they need to do to prevent campus Sexual Assault and i think working with legislators, until every state in america has comprehensive sex ed legislation my work is not time. How do you manage or how would you see the process changing the process by which we do teach sex ed sort of especially in the Public School sector because i know theres you alluded to this sort of spark plug analogy like its very spark plug how do you drive a car, do you have any ideas how to go about that . There are states that have changed their laws, california has a California Healthy youth act so now all young people in california starting in middle school and every single Public School in the state get comprehensive sex ed that is inclusive. That speaks to queer kids and talks about racial inequality and it makes said to reflex the experiences of everyone. Colorado also passed a law that if schools are going to teach at it has to be comprehensive. The law like that its been discussed in new york, georgia, kentucky, alabama, so i think the need to moment is a moment of opportunity because whatever people think about premarital sex and whether its a sin, really nobody wants their kids mistakenly assault someone. We are all on this same team, team parents about long she and her kids safely into the World Without doing that. I think this is a moment of opportunity in the Education System is a system to reproduce inequality. Wheres swimming upstream. Right now if you are rich or live in an urban area youre much more likely to get Sex Education is more like the driving and the spark plugs. And if youre poor or live in a rural area youre much more likely to get absent only Sex Education or no Sex Education at all. Weve created a situation where there is something we created that we know works but only the rich kid gets it. So we could do better. Hi again. I was interested in when you talked about the interviews with offenders, perpetrators or whatever you call them and in particular the profile so people who have been able to label what they did as an assault before talking to and then have come to talk about it. And so, i feel like theres more spaces being open especially in University Campuses they seen it, talked about it and labeled it but theres not a lot of spaces for people who have committed assault. And like you said thats a problem with punitive ways of dealing with the problem of Sexual Violence that people have in interest about proving their interest not i was wondering like if you have any insights from the interviews about how the people who had been able to recognize like how did that happen . How did they manage to see what they have done is assaults before coming to talk to you . Some of them and its important to acknowledge that there were very many, some of them had been in therapy and had a chance to deal with it in a sort of oneonone therapy context but i think youre right and you make an important. That there is no institutional feedback loop that exists for people who have harmed someone. If you hurt someone you need to do two things. You need to do the repair and you need to learn to do better. And right now the punitive, were not going to punish our way out of this and the punitive framework keeps people from telling other people that they have harm them because they know its going to have that theres only a hard hammer. Theres no soft hammer and they dont want to bring that down because mostly people have sex with people who are in their friend and network and sometimes people they care about. Theres no way of people getting the feedback for the most part that says like hey, what you did, it hurt me, to feel good. And that means the person is going to keep doing that and the person harmed is also not about adjudication but were short of justice work and were thinking about a place, and theres a lot of sex that we describe in the book that its not assault but its unkind its not pleasurable. People are having a lot of sex thats not feeling good to them i think thats a framework that might leave room for assaulters can get some help working on that were not looking at a psychological framework, its not an identity but they do need no space on campus is not damaging to the people around them. Thank you very much. Tonight, book tv in prime time, the journalist janice provides a history of women in the sciences. Turning. Usa founder offers his thoughts on what he calls the new conservative agenda. In the winter of 1967, 68 and his decision to run for president. When Diane Pfeiffer waves in on how to be trump on the 2020 election. Check your Program Guide for more information. On afterwards on a weekly Author Interview programs, congressman matt gates of interviewed ramp all about his new book the case against socialism. If im going to be a successful capitalist and i sell something, not caring about my desires. I may want to be successful but i need to care about what you want if youre a consumer. Everything is focused outwards and trying to get you to accept them by my services or product but if im a socialist im really not caring too much about popular opinion are pleasing a consumer. In fact, we socialize things Like Health Care they just say everybodys going to get it, hell no longer be bankrupt and worried about bills but you have to have rationing. You have to wait in line for six months or year for your hip replacement. It is directed more towards their ideological concerns. So how does that drive selfishness . It seems as though youre making an argument that a country is most socialist becomes more selfish. I think thats true. And i think its an irony in a way because they were professed to be its for the other man. Everything through someone else and yet in the end it is driven by selfishness and also driven by their ends up being an elite in their society and they consume and accumulate power, money, homes and Everything Else all based on the cronyism of their system. To watch the interview into find more episodes of afterwards, visit our website, booktv. Org and click on the afterwards tab at the top of the page. Heres a look at some books being published this week area New York Times Editorial Board member, Jesse Wakeman argues the United States should get rid of the Electoral College and let the people pick the president. In some assembly required, university of chicago biology and anatomy professor neil shubin per looks at how new science will explain the evolution of a different species sands and any parkinsons disease, neurologist ray dorsey, ceo of the Michael J Fox foundation for Parkinsons Research offers a plan to help prevent the disease and improve treatment and care. Also being published this week, university of Illinois History professor recounts how a fracture germany led to the rise of a third grade in her letters first hundred days. In the book faster, neal bascomb chronicles the life of 1930s french racecar driver Renee Dreyfus who is prohibited from joining german race teams considered to have the top drivers and cars at the time due to his jewish heritage. And in depths of despair in the future of capitalism, Princeton University economics professor and case and nobel prizewinning economist, angus deaton argued that capitalism is fatal to americas working class. Look for these titles in bookstores this coming week and watch for many of the authors in the near future on book tv on cspan2. Please welcome. [inaudible] [applause] [applause] i have to start. Im carla hayden, librarian of congress. I just want to thank jamie and and the angels and