2017 that was kind of an ode to the first africanamerican president , hence the title the fierce 44. We had this idea that lets do kind of an homage to inarguably the greatest achievement for africanamericans to become president , and who else should be on that list . And so we did a list, it was Interactive Digital project, and it was wellreceived, highly debated, and then hard hard court publish it this saying you turn into into a Childrens Book because there are not a lot of africanamerican biographies, a general a was that genre that was popular issue childrens biography questions and so we edited our digital project and turn it into a book. Host what is the format of the book. Guest well, its basically a short bio sketches with illustrations, and it just gives you enough, gives kids enough they can learn about these tremendous africanamerican achievers, and just absorb some of the inspiration and greatness that black americans have contributed to this country. Host you mentioned your are ed doctor and chief of undo feeted part of espn. Guest part of epps jeeps when did it come about and why. Guest it was we launched in in may 2016. It was the idea of the a former president , espn, john skipper, and it was the idea that here we have a digital project that really could serve a really loyal overindexing black audience on digital, and meanwhile help espn with bringing our owners the tick and sensibility to espn where race, sports and culture intersection. Sports now is very much but culture, too, and that came about, and i was at the Washington Post as where you and i knew each other, and after a lot of debate i was presented with this opportunity, and i decided to go ahead and give it a shot, to essentially have a startup within epps jeeps you were managing editor of the Washington Post. Guest i was. Host how much debate happened in your family before you left guest a lot of debate, particularly my wife. But it was sometimes you just you disrupt your open career. And want to do Something Different and take a little bit of leap off of that cliff, and try Something Different. So i decided to do that, and its been fantastic. Host just to be clear, why 44 biographical sketches. A myoff of the 44th 44th president , and so he was exiting the white house, and we said, well do 44. Originally called in the undefeated 44. These are our selection, our staff selection, and there was a lot of fierce debate. You can imagine because there are many, many more than 44 great africanamericans. We dont say this is the greatest black achievers ever. We dont try to put that on these are just 44 that we looked at, that fit the sensibility of the first africanamerican president , in the sense that heres something that they they did something pioneering, something disrupting, they were some cases i say noisy geniuses or quiet innovators but did something extraordinary in their own space, and it was belief me, it was knock down, dragout debate among the staff, and we did it kind of democratically where to get on the list you had to convince the group that this person should be on the list, and if you were going to add someone you had to say, then who are we going to take off . It was a lot of become and forth, and obviously a lot of people were left off but a lot of great people are on the list. Host what do you want Young Readers to know about barack obama besides being the first black president . Guest well, its interesting. I was at the nba allstar weekend in chicago, and happened to have be at an event that michael wilbon, my colleague at espn, was hosting and it had barack obama was there with yanis, chris paul and kevin love and a discussion about what athletes do and how they use their influence on issues and it was a reminder of how what someone like obama does to elevate a discussion. He was interacting with. The athletes and you could watch the athletes in the sense of thinking more deeply about how they could influence and use their own power to for good on social issues, fascinating discussion. So i do think that its hard to become president. I dont care who you are. We know were watching that now. Its really difficult, long journey, so to be the first africanamerican to do that is a signature achievement that many people thought they would never see in their lifetimes so that always stands at the top of the mountain. Host the majority of to the profiles in the fires 44 are not athletes. Guest yeah. We have six athletes, and so even those theyre people who are left out but i think the athletes we do have in the list, serena williams, simone biles who is the greatest gymnast ever. I think she is the greatest gymnast ever. Just recordwise. Michael jordan. Who kind of not only was he the first the first black athlete outside of oj, who really kind of set a model for how athletes could do in business, and as and represent big corporate brands, and he had a style and a kind of swagger in addition to his highfullying ability. But so there are lot of reasons why various people got picked and we could say, a lot of great athletes. Hank aaron is not on the list. He could have easily been on that list. But i think that the athletes we do have are amazing. Host who is not in the book that you personally wanted to in the book . Guest i dont know. I think host all your choices get picked . Guest no, they didnt. Some people i argued for wasnt much argue. But ali. Some people were obvious, ali was an obvious one. Thurgood marshall is one of my favorite because times Thurgood Marshalls contribution to really breaking the back of jim crow, through the legal system and traveling dark roads and really going into all white courtrooms and really doing it under death threats, it was really important to have the legal dimension, while everybody else was out in the streets and protesting and doing sitins. So, he was one of my favorites to be on the list. Argued for Jesse Jackson as a forerunner to president obama and he kind of first set the idea it was possible. A lot of people didnt want to run for president , and as as a great orator and someone who is inspired many generations to have hope and faith. So, there was a lot of debate. People were getting knocked down and added on, and it was very spirited. Host youre the cao author of a book on Justice Clarence thomas. Was he considered for this fierce 44 . Guest yeah, he was raised, too, and as a Supreme Court justice he certainly was someone who is was raised. A lot of people who were raised, i think that we were mindful also of not trying to make these choices based on ideology or based on factors that, this person was isolated from the race we tried to look at achievement and what was done, and obviously with 44, you are missing a lot of people. Tiger woods is not on here. I think Louis Armstrong is not that was debated burt Duke Ellington is in there. Guest yes. Part of the process was, we thought about dont want to have it overly weighted with civil rights or activists because you could have filled the entire book there. We were sensitive to what is missing. Like, i probably think we added people, Richard Allen is in there. And part because certainly religion is such an important jo founder of the ame. Guest yes, founder of ame church and religion is so important to plank communities and still and is churches play such a role. We could have had more religious figures so i think i may have razeed. Not enough religious figures. Military. Benjamin davis a decorated jennies there. Host the first africanamerican general. Guest thats right. And he and so that was a nod to the fact of our contributions to the military and fighting and defending the country. Host theres a connection between jesse owens and benjamin o. Davis who both served operated during that same time period but then came back to the u. S. To a different to the same old world. Guest yeah, the same old world, and jesse owens and many of the other olympians from the 1936 olympics came back and were not treated and welcomed in the way that we are accustomed to olympic champions being welcomed. Host in fact, jesse owen return home to the oppression of jim crow, working at basically menial jobs like racing horses and pumping gas. Yeah. So, just kind of as a side show, and that was a really tragic outcome for member who had essentially regarded as defeating hitler and embarrassing hitler in the games in germany. Host i want to ask, who was Robert Abbott. Guest he was a great newspaper editor. The chicago defender was one of the the most important publications in america for black americans during that time, and it really during a period when chicago where there was a migration, the chicagoan and really nationally, really being kind of a beacon for truth and leading the way. 0 Robert Abbott differently deserve and journalists so have to have some journalism representation. Host what was the importance of the defender and is the importance. Guest i think the defender d. I think black newspapers were africanamericans werent working at the white papers. This is where we get our news, like the amsterdam news and of course the afro american, other papers around the country, block papers, they were out covering the civil rights movement, many covering injustice, and many of those reporters that were going and down in the deep south, were just like thurgood marshall, hard to figure out how to stay in places and file their stories in dangerous places. So they were also under threat. Had to do thick wore under threat. So do their work under threat. They were important, the black newspaper in chicago the defender, standing above all at leaders in the civil rights movement. Host kevin merida, what the toughest part about transition from the Washington Post and politics into sports and politics for you . Guest well, i was a sports fan. I followed sports closely. As managing editor i oversaw the news and features covered so that included the sports department, written a lot about sports. Kind of as a feature writer. So i felt comfortable in the sports world. Didnt feel too out of place there. I think the biggest difficulty transition is nat youre another a place like the Washington Post that is so news centered, and going through a startup that was did not have a culture, did not have we had to build everything from the ground floor, so when youre starting something new, youre encountering off kinds of challenges that go along with that. And so but it was great transition. Host why is it called the undefeated. Guest well, based off a miya angelou quote that we may encounter many defeats but will not be defeated. That sometimes you need to suffer defeat to know what you can become it and was really, i think, both from a sports standpoint and from a race standpoint, really kind of came together as an ideal. Sports our kids lose, we hug them, theyre going to lose a game and we let them know this is not the end of the world. There will be another opportunity, and i think just the resilience of what black americans have done in this country, theyre resilience and try awesome over obstacles so the undefeated felt good. There are six athletes in the fierce 44. Are athletes inherently role models. I think whether they want to be or not, they are for many people because they play in public. Theyre out doing their work in public, and they interact with fans and fans watch them and people come pay money to see the games so kids look up to them because many kids grow up playing sports and they wish they could become serena williams. Look at cocoa gov goff now, lighting up ten miss and inspired by serena williams. Naomi osaka; you see that kind of pipeline. Althea gibson to serena williams. Think that athletes you look up to them and want to become them, and so they are role models. Host what about colin kaepernick, was he considered for the book. Guest yeah. There was a discussion about kaepernick and i think that certainly at a point in time he has become a symbol for activism for black athletes now, and certainly sacrificed his career in order to make a point about brutality and oppression, racial injustice. So i think that somebody who is kind of the modernday ali, to sacrifice something, at least seen that way by many people he was definitely considered. Host kevin merida, 0 two people in the book i never heard of. Im ashame to say. One was jan mishel. Guest yeah. An off van guard painter. He avantgarde painter. He was right now some of his paintings are i think his paint little were up there at the highest resale value. He died young and was somebody that, like some young geniuses, they die too young and over in what they could become. Even him, we kind of put him in as a disrupter because there war a lot of other artists, and i know a couple of people on our staff ill call Jesse Washington ought thought there should have been other notable painters like roman bearden or others more deserving of being in there. Elizabeth cat lynn. So i think in every genre you have, you have success so much success, that you are making choices for lots of different reasons. I like the fact we have some zags where people would not expect a person to be in the list. Host so, disrupters was important to be included . Guest i think yeah issue think disruption is good. Courage, bravery. Taking a chance, going into places where others fields others havent fun. All of this should be considered. Certainly achievement is and success was important. So, just lat of factors. There was in we didnt have any score sheet. Just really a feel and a debate and we just made some selections. Host the other one i had not heard of, dr. Charles drew. Guest yeah. A pioneer in medicine. I know that in nashville and he represents the importance of medical discovery and the sciences and our contributions there. I think the way we thought but that was, charles drew was somebody that we could have had a lot of other people, George Washington carver, many people that were in the realm of kind of scientific invention and discovery, but we he was a representation. Host who do you hope reads this. Guest i hope kids. Parents, read it with their children, and i think everybody, kids of all races races races a, that is these are black americans who shook up the world but its our history. Its american history, and i hope that kids everywhere can learn something. Host beautiful illustrations in here. Who did that. Guest robert ball. An artist that we contracted with, illustrator. Was fantastic. So good. Host kevin merida, is the editor in chief of the undefeated, also one of the authors on this book the fierce 44 black americans who shook up the world. Guest thanks peter for having me. Here are current bestselling nonfiction books according the wall street journal at the top of the list, very stable genius from which the Washington Post been suggest that the Trump Presidency has been defined by selfenrichment. After that is the critical investigation into progressive politicians in his latest book, profiles in corruption. Then in built not born, businessman tom offer his advice for entrepreneurs. Tar are westover recalls growing up in the idaho mounts and her introduction to formal education at age 17 in her book educated. And wrapping up the look at the pestselling nonfiction books according to the wall street journal is becoming, former first Lady Michelle obamas memoir which was the best selling book of 2018. Most of these authors have appeared on booktv and you can watch them online at booktv. Org. On a recent episode of the Author Interview program ward ward, New York Times columnie Kwame Anthony spoke to Thomas Williams but views on race and identity. My father did his best to get me to read james baldwin, to read letter from birmingham jail, Martin Luther king to really understand a lot of tradition and also in the way that you write, always believed that my identity didnt begin or end with the social reality of my blackness. So, he kind of had his life saved by bag fatherless black boy in texas without anyone in his family having an education but stumbled upon platos dialogues at some point in his childhood and tried to read it, and it didnt make sense to him at first but he was very early on aware there was something out there that linked him with the towering great greek mind, and that if he could access it he could potentially access the wide ever world and would read books by himself in his closet with a nbalight and his family would say, youre going to get yourself in trouble. Dont read to the books but early on, aesops fables were huge for him. So he always would give me he always had a sense that you can see yourself in many different places and many different figures, and so identity is not just being black. To find this and other episodes visit the website, booktv. Org click on the after words taber in the top of the page. Good afternoon and welcome to the heritage foundation. Im rob bluey, the Vice President of communication here at heritage, an executive editor of the daily signal. As a courtesy id like to ask you silence your cellphones, although dont turn them off because we encourage you tweet and share social media but the program. Help us spread the word. Were extreming on twitter and youtube so you can find it on he Heritage Feed of both channels and platforms. To introduce our guest today, Marvin Olasky is a prolific wr a