Transcripts For CSPAN2 Discussion Of The Boys On The Bus 20240713

Those boys, the legendary high chamberlain of upi. [laughing] [applause] sounds like a lot of you knew him. Looking forward to a terrific discussion this evening and now i have the pleasure of introducing the chair of the National Press club history and heritage team, the 87th president of the National Press club, the bureau chief of the gaylord hughes Washington Bureau or university of oklahoma, and a dear friend, mr. Gil klein. [applause] thanks so much, mike. The thrill of the National Press club history and the Heritage Group is the legacy of the clubs 112 year history as well as to explore the history of journalism especially in washington. We are pleased that a new history of the club called come hails from the National Press club, is scheduled to be published by the history press. It explores events that happen at the club who have had an impact on American World history. This event tonight was proposed by our moderator, edwin grosvenor, who himself is part of the Great Washington journalism family. For generations they published National Geographic magazine, founded by his greatgrandfather, Alexander Graham bell. Who by the way and that is the telephone. He is not editor and publisher of the American Heritage magazine, a magazine that has inspired generations of young historians. Ed is also the publisher of 13 history excuse me, ed is also the author and editor of 13 history books, and hes the thirdgeneration club member. Ed will introduce our distinguished panel who not only were on the campaign chronicled by the book the boys on the bus but also covered president ial politics in many of the 12 elections at apollo. Well have about one hour with the panel and then well open it up to questions from the floor and will pass around a microphone so your question can be picked up by cspan. I ask you to ask succinct question. If you ramble, the microphone might disappear. Immediately after the program please join us for a reception for our guests. Ed, thanks so much for doing this. The floor is yours. [applause] thank you, gil. And also congratulations on your book that just came on lafayette square. I dont know how you found somebody good history stories, amazing, great book. Welcome everybody. Were really pleased with this crowd. Were going to have a lively discussion tonight about political campaigns come specifically about the experiences of our three distinguished handle members. When the boys on the bus book can let a reviewer to subscribe a whole gaggle of political reporters, pundits, pontificated, network, glenn boys, drunk, fornicators, hacks, hatchet men, cumbers all crammed like monkeys with typewriters in press bus frenetically dogging the candidates all looking for a piece of the story. That may be a little overthetop, but the book really did provide a fascinating window into how we learn about political campaigns and the people who bring those stories to us like the distinguished journalists on our panel. For most of you, they dont need an introduction that i will give brief ones anyway. Carl leubsdorf is at dallas news and was there for nearly three decades. On the bus he covered the Mcgovern Campaign for ap which gave him special status with reporters looking over his shoulder to see what his lead was for the next morning. Carl is a past president of both the Gridiron Club in the White House Correspondence Association where he had the distinction of being roasted by jon stewart. Carl recently published his memoirs entitled appropriately, adventures of a a boy on the b. Tom oliphant you all know, cruz reported tom was known as the kid on the bus. Even though he had worked for the boston globe already for four years. After the 72 campaign he helped manage the globes coverage of School Desegregation in boston which won a pulitzer prize. Tom was later the long time washington correspondent for the globe and reported on ten president ial campaigns. Hes been a frequent commentator on pbs and the networks known for his insight with and handsome bowties. [inaudible] [laughing] hes also written five books including most recently the road to camelot with curtis wilkie. Connie chung, last but not least, were so delighted connie has come down from new york to join us. A true pioneer, she was only the second female coanchor to coanchor and Network Newscast as part of cbs evening news and has also been an anchor and reporter for nbc, abc, cnn and msnbc. Thats in demand. Couldnt hold a job. [laughing] tim krause in the book refers connie disrupted the cozy clubby male world of the boys on the bus by always showing up well prepared, bright and early, with microphone ready and never hung over. [laughing] never what . And never hung over. Oh, right. Was a real advantage. [laughing] i tell you about that. First of all i i was when if each of you could tell us, just tell us briefly how you came to be on the campaign in 72, where were you in your career at the time . Given most of my career, le since that date i had joined the ap in 1960 out of columbia Journalism School. I was assigned to the tampa bureau. Fortunately three days after i was assigned, a spot opened up into new Orleans Bureau and i think new orleans got to be more interesting than tampa. What he did know was there about to desegregate the schools there and was about to get very interesting. The next two years i covered a lot of desegregation come mostly illegal end of it. In june 1963 after a brief tenure a brief tenure in new york i got to the Washington Bureau, courtesy of my new orleans. You can put in a good word for me. How long ago this was, this was six months before john kennedy was killed, although the day kennedy was shot of doing due to come at 10 30 p. M. When heard what happened i called it, sugar, no . Though, come in at 1030. But as the world war ii generation of journalists begin to retire and die off, spots began to open up. In the mid\60{l1}s{l0}\60{l1}s{l0} i covered the house of representatives for two years. Then i covered the senate for several years. In the 60 campaign i spent some of the campaign covering Hubert Humphreys campaign. By the time 1972 came around i was one of the main ap political writers along with walter, another boy who still is around in north carolina. I was assigned mostly to mcgovern. I covered mcgovern virtually the whole year. After that i stayed with the ap a couple but it went to the Baltimore Sun at the end of 1975. I thought i would probably always go to work for a newspaper and they gave me a good offer to cover politics at the white house. In 1981, a former editor of mine from the ap became the editor of the Dallas Morning News and hired me to be the Washington Bureau chief. As you correctly said i lasted 28 years as bureau chief and i retired ten years ago, but im still writing the column i wrote all those years. Thats how we got to where i got. 1972 was by second of 11 president ial campaigns. I had covered bob kennedy and George Wallace in 1968, but 72 i started in New Hampshire where i met this one, im pretty sure. And so that was my second. Tom and and i are actually t the same age but we didnt we shared a number of thats off the record . That . The number but its off the record. But he had a lot more experience than i did. I had just started at cbs news, and i was in my mid20s. I had only been there a few months and i was suddenly assigned to cover George Mcgovern 72 president ial campaign. I was really surprised, but it was great but i was a cub reporter. The third string. In other words, usually there was a first strain corresponded and that was bruce morton primarily. He was smart and respected by even the print journalist. The print journalists did not respect any television journalist. Truly. We were, people talked for a living, didnt think about what we were saying. We were glamour boys. But bruce was good, and i think most people respected him. There was a Second String, and often that was david, and i would then be bumped up to third banana. So i was i merrily primarily covered the radio. That was my job. I obviously didnt know what i was doing but i persevered. So theres a lot of interesting details in this book. What did you guys think when it came out and why, just briefly why do you think were still reading it today . I was just happy my name was in at. [laughing] i didnt like the picture much, but better than no picture. Im not really sure. I think it captures a time and a place that somehow got a romantic atmosphere about it. Part of it was the Hunter Thompson side of it. The Mcgovern Campaign was one of those things. He carried wednesday. He didnt do very well and yet those this sort of romance about it that Mcgovern Campaign reunions almost up to the point where he died several years ago. I dont think there was much has changed in some ways. In the boys on the bus Timothy Crouse says quotes joe as saying we have to Pay Attention to what Middle America thinks. Really . [laughing] its the same today, right . One of my favorite moments towards the end, what came to be known in our slang as big feet, columnist the most Senior Network people didnt come out all that much during the general. In fact, one of the things i learned about that part of the trade was how little those guys worked. It was mostly where you for some of us who had corresponded responsibilities in those days, the arrival of the big book was very much to be appreciated. Because the good ones would do your job for a day. And you could wrestle is kind of nice. I remember toward the end, two of the most hawkish of the washington colonists, joe kraft who is famous for his association with the kissinger at that time, and the mcgovern people, god bless them, what kind of tough with that sort of thing. And i think they showed up thinking it was 1960 and they would immediately be shown to the candidates claim and ushered up to have a drink with the nominee, blah, blah, blah. It was cleveland, and they told craft and mr. Allsop that it would be riding on what we call does you plane, which [laughing] connie can describe what does you plane was like. We with the press and it was an elite group that could fly on mcgovern splaying and they were often part of the pool mcgovern was playing. But then it was the rest of us, and we were thus. We were animals we were this. Acted like it, too. Yes, we did. I think carl was a bigfoot. No, because he ap didnt have a bigfoot problem. We had a couple people on the plane and the week. The main had about 40 journals, all the major papers were on. It was the backups and the tv crew. When you with a third person with an organization you ended up in the as you play. Also as a funny story that shows in some ways things have not changed. One of the people was exiled to the zoo plane was bob novak, another conservative colonists. Mcgovern didnt like anything you wrote. They put them on the zoo plane. You think everything is changed, i remind you of the story the other day about the npr reporter was not allowed to travel with mike pompeo. Thats about what happened then. I traveled with spiro agnew in the early 70s, the Washington Post of the Baltimore Sun were not allowed to go with him because their editorial policy was little. That will not change. I will never forget the governs plane, called it dakota queen to because the first one was this world war ii plane. He flew the max Bombing Missions during world war ii but anyway, the dakota queen two pulling away from the tarmac at cleveland and everybody waiting byebye out the window at alsop and joe kraft. [laughing] so for a lot of younger people to it must just be difficult for them to fathom what it was like for us to file articles. No computers, no internet, no email, no cell phones, not even facts machines. We all technologically advanced persons covering the nominee in the general was the ap guy. Carl had more gizmos than anybody else. By the way, it shows what a different world it was. For example, i remember coming back from south dakota after the summer senator mcgovern and senator eagleton had their famous meeting and mcgovern had not announced or told everyone he was going to dump eagleton and speedy will get to that story. This is a story about technology. The ap reporter with a written the story for morning papers. In those days we wrote separate stories for morning and afternoon papers. I said you give your copy, all find a phone because we got to mitchell town, there was no filing centers. There were no cell phones. You how to find a pay phone somewhere where you could call your story in. I said you go with mcgovern, all find a pay phone. Sometimes the secret service regarding the payphones and you couldnt get to them. What did you do for radio on a pay phone . Unscrew it. Yes, the receiver part you had to be able to unscrew it and use your alligator clips to your recorder for a little phony recorder. It was really hard to unscrew the payphone. I mean, really hard. I i think i recall being askd over to your place. Yes. Connie, but with the film you would have to get that back to new york well before seven. You would have to send your film back in the morning. Yes. I had a notorious story. My husband told me you have to tell because it just shows how aggressive and brutal you were. Little old me . I wasnt that way, was i . So ill just tell it to you quickly because its true. And those days you had to fly your film to a location where it could be indeed developed, or literally flown back to new york and we would take these rickety planes. Maury, i can do this. I was always accused of trying to go around the big guy, whether it was the first string guy or the Second String guy. David said he was supposed to show me around, show me the ropes and everything, and that i kept going around his back calling new york try to sell stories directly for me to do. This time my father had a heart attack, and so they said you can come home. I said great. But since im flying to the location with the film, instead of having that can do the report, why do i do it . And they went no. You are outrages, and it went all through the pure and everybody was appalled. Whoops, you know . I wasnt supposed to, you know . That still happens in tv. Do you ever hear of Andrea Mitchell and chuck todd . Its cutthroat. But im sorry. The one thing that i can add first of all, in the world of print they were portable typewriters yes. Did you have i had an underwood that i think data to the late 1930s. And you had these little typewriters and you had a paper. The tape recorder was just beginning to be miniaturized so that you could hold it in your hand. In 1968, for print people tape recorders ridiculous because they just got in the way of taking notes and whatever. But there was Something Different that is long gone because of the demise of monopolies in communication. But once you had a nominee, the candidates plane always had a guy from this monster called at t whose job was to make sure that whatever you stopped, there was a big, several rows of telephones that worked. So we didnt have to fight for pay telephone space. They there were Western Union guys. You could write your stories. A couple of times i wrote stories in the middle of nowhere on come i did it once on toilet paper with a pen. And the Western Union guy would take it and there would be operators waiting at the next who would do the telex transmission. Very cool. And all of that is gone today. But he wanted to add something to your point about live for you. Because she really, one of the things about them that perhaps is different from now is this was at the dawn of the women in age. 19 72 saw the arrival of three people. One, and absolute by discourse by as cbs who was just marvelous, special in New Hampshire and later at the convention, Michele Clark who we lost in a plane crash the following year. If i may, she was africanamerican. When i was hired, the equal Employment Opportunities commission was putting great pressure on networks to hire women and minorities, and so cbs and news, which was in the neanderthal years, still kind it is, hired four women in one fell swoop, a black woman, Michele Clark, knee, a chinese person, leslie stahl, a nice jewish girl with blonde hair, and sylvia chase, i stuff with long hair. Were good. And look like one of those tickets in the old new York Democratic party where he always had come yet one of everything. There was one other woman, a third woman that year in 1972 who broke through hilary benn a print order for the hearst newspapers, the primers 1972 lit up the set on the convention with nbc. She is gone, sadly in the early 80s. Thats really all there was. I i mean, connie would go throuh a stonewall for a story, but then you saw the story and you realize it was a generational thing at that time. The younger ones, we had grown up with television. We were totally comfortable with it. Most of us in personal life or political life had to be comfortable with the Womens Movement that was gathering steam. It was the poor older guys who had trouble with women and with television. Tom married a forced to be reckoned with, a correspondent a long time at cbs news. But for a girl, trying to wonder if theres some way to add a meaningful fashion life to see these three that long ago early in 1972. It was the breakthrough and it remains, sadly, very male in a lot of respects. It took a lot longer on the print side. In 76 there were a few women covering the campaign. I 80s 80s there were quite a fw women covering the campaign. Things had changed. Elizabeth, on your buzz it was Elizabeth Drew from new york or sometimes. No, no, elizabeth rarely came out. Mary was there. And you know, i read her when she worked for the starr and later for the post of course, and i used to watch it because i always thought she was an incredible writer. Im sure everybody did. I was such a poor writer, i received there in the middle of the night in the pressroom, the two of us would be the only ones there and i was just tried to come up with something mundane that i could just, so that i could convey what had happened, and she was toiling away in the middle of the night writing and rewriting, and i would watch her out of the corner of my eye try to give it to me, give me some vibes, please. She had already achieved that status, but she was the character, too. I remember the night at one of the primaries, and are going to take a wild guess and think it was wisconsin. We were in a pressroom, and since mary is not here to jump down my throat, she might have had a couple at dinner before the returns came in, and she was a boston, tough talking gal, but she was very fastidious about her appearance, and her hair was always done. At any rate, that we were in this newsroom as the return started to come in that night. And mary as i said was a little off, but she had a cigarette, and she was on the phone and gesticulating. A bunch of us were watching this cigarette getting closer and closer to her hair. [laughing] and all of a sudden it lit up. No . Mary liked young men to carry her bags. And on this occasion young man sprang forward and poured water on her head. [laughing] you know what . Can i tell you, being the only woman, there was a lot of gameplaying, right . But but i was used to that becae it was every day affair. It was every day. You see the me too movement today, but back then, you know, its a daily occurrence and all of you know what im talking about. You can just deal with it. So one time speedy are you going to make me tell the story . Can you tell yours first . Remember, there were all these things that these pioneers did that help establish the idea of women doing this. And one of the things was, they really were one of the boys, especially this one. I remember one night during the general election, we were somewhere and sometimes after we would all play over we would go have a couple before we turn in. And connie was pretty good about hanging out with us a little bit. I realize thats how you are getting your stories. [laughing] because tim krause says in the book i was always in bed in my room, you know. No. Actually, he never said who i was in bed with. [laughing] no. He said that, when i realized that carl was breaking stories right to left, you were breaking stories right and left. How did this happen . I realized it you go down to the bar and if you get whoever you can, like on the campaign, a little snookered, then it might be able to tell you something. So there we are, three or four of us, including connie, and how many times have you seen this happen, some i dont know, ball bearing salesman in a leisure suit i guess, started to hone in obviously and awkwardly making passes in connies direction. And and i was struck for civil p calm and cool she was about it, almost as if she didnt really take notice of the guy. He didnt understand and he kept circling and coming back the way these barflies do sometimes. And finally i was just getting, he had come back and was starting any get and was just starting to get up out of my chair to sort of shoe him away when connie gave him one of the most withering stares i have ever seen in my life, and set a line that has stayed with me forever, said connie, look, you dont want to go to bed with me. It would just be horny 20 minutes later. [laughing] there were some of these things coming up every day. One time i have to tell you, roger mudd reminded me. When roger was writing his book he called me and he said jim naughton and New York Times. Jim not of the New York Times and whats the other one . Jules who was at the time working for l. A. Times before he came to the post. I think it was a Biltmore Hotel in philadelphia on the phone, you know, on a pay phone, the kind, the oldfashioned payphone with the accordion glassdoor and a big black iphone and the seat. So i was sitting there. I was talking to somebody who ive been dating, and they came up and present their noses against it, harassing me. I thought they were sexual harassing me. And so they pushed their way in it since i was sitting here, i could see their belt buckles. They were at that height, so to get rid of them i pulled their flies down. [laughing] and roger said to me, did you do that . And i went i think so. [laughing] on that note [laughing] thats a hard one to follow. Did you feel you, you had a lot of access to mcgovern. Im just curious about how and when all the journalists when they were covering a campaign, they would get close to the candidate enough that they felt almost possessive or something. Krause writes about after muskie tanked in the polls seeing a group of his or journalists had just knocked down five rounds the whiskey because their guy was out. That was one of the things that was most different i think about 1972 was the access. First of all were on the same plane with the candidate, with the staff, and there were really no barriers. You go up and talk to mcgovern and do things like that. I remember being in New Hampshire in early january of 1972 and a want to do a story about mcgovern. I rode around with it in a car. I think early person in the car was the driver. I dont know if you want me to tell the story about the 1000 you must. It was so good. I wrote the story that prompted mcgovern my comment te was 1000 behind eagleton. What happened was mcgovern, eagleton had a press conference when they announced that eagleton had treatment for depression, including electric shock treatment. After that story, with the wire you have to think whats the next cycle quick . Whats a followon works i said, hes got a interview with mcgovern. Figure how to an interview. I found out some of he was playing tennis, he had an hour tennis lesson. And so i went over to the tennis court where he was and asked when he was finished i could write up with him to his cabin and talk to him. And he said sure. Now, you couldnt get within te. Most cases you dont fly on the same plane with them. So i went back to the press room. We didnt have one of those old tape recorders. The ap could afford. When one of these big things and went one for the two of us. I got it from my colleague not telling him why i wanted it because i did want to tell anyone what i might have. I interviewed mcgovern, and in the course of the interview i asked him what you think the public reaction to eagleton was announcement will be . He been very supportive of eagleton when asked and he said we will have to wait and see. Mcgovern is still supporting eagleton, but he says we will have to wait and see how the public reacts. Assemble wire service lead totally innocuous. I file it. You have to understand about communications in those days. Half of mcgovern staff is in south dakota, half is a washington. They barely have phone communication back and forth. They dont have a wire. They dont have an internet. They have no way to see my story for hours and hours and hours. And when they see my store they go crazy. Hes pulling back from eagleton. We have to do something about it. They have her yet meeting and mcgovern says ill deny it. The press secretary i dont think you can do that. Of course i had it on tape and so his solution was to put up a statement saying in response to the ap story, im 1000 behind eagleton. And by the way, the statement was put on the wall at the pressroom. The best western. And the person who did it is here. City and the third row. She has [laughing] [applause] she had red hair then. Theres some of it still, carol, who went on to join us at election had a great life. She pulled it off beautifully. But here is this more stories. I think. Timmy, in the book, he got something right. We all got it wrong. The established way of governing politics was full of it. Was what . Full of it. That it created a twodimensional linear reality, easily manipulated by politicians. On the Eagleton Mcgovern thank him his point was that overall we had blown the story because we failed to transmit how manipulative, i love eagleton, manipulative eagleton was on trying to sit on the ticket. And then how skillfully manipulative mcgovern was in trying to grease the skids for getting rid of him without having a Dramatic Press Conference and im getting rid of the guy. You had this confusion about, but tim these point was that all of this was a farce and not genuine drama. That is the larger point that he was trying to make in the book. Thats one reason it is still studied today, because theres something wrong still with twodimensional journalism. And in many respects, the hero of this book, not with stories about drugs and booze and sex, although there are a few of those, is Hunter Thompson, who could make a campaign more real by going off to pluto and back with these wild, i mean, our favorite one remember in New Hampshire, that he had discovered that the reason muskie was lousy candidate was boring as hell, stiff as a board, et cetera, was that somebody had smuggled to new england this drug from brazil, and he even had a name for it. It made you boring. [laughing] and then he would go on to describe an actual appearance by muskie, which could be like this. The real guy was very funny, very profane, worried about his stature but a very, obviously an interesting man. But this thing that was campaigning was just not anyway, of the descriptions of muskie were more real than ours. Thats tims message. But also the decision about everyone, i dont think its true with every single reporter. No, no, no. If you look at jason broder tim was trying. You have to wait in in the second but one of the questions tim is wrestling with in this one, and they would come up repeatedly on campaigns later come all the way to today, is how could the whole institution have been dead wrong about an muskie . Not about whether he was a good guy or a bad guy, just what the situation was. [talking over each other] there was this massive structure known as the muskie campaign. It dominated all the speed everyone was wrong about hillary, to. Thats my point, thats my point. Alive and well today. We were just beginning to have a debate in 1972 among ourselves usually in bar rooms about whether our coverage was about candidacies and what they were about, or hear it came. The first time you hear that term is in 1972. In our daily stores, yours as well as mine, it the nominee went somewhere and said something, that was the story. What the user did is they had one new paragraph in standard speech and that gave you your lead come something to write about. You could fight the speech with him, but we could hear one new part. The press corps would sit there mouthing the speech as the candidate was giving it. One of my governs traveling gurus in 1972 was a guy who it been central to president ial politics in 1960, fred dutton. Later went on to become believe it or not the washington operator for the government in saudi arabia. Boy, did he get rich. But he was marvelous at his kraft and one thing he always had the candidates he was advising do is personalize something about the sub speech so does everybody could have a laugh and whatever. Theres one example that involves you and me. Mcgovern would have lines in his stump speech about classic liberal for the need for tax reform the line was everyday the big rich businessman can deduct the price of his three martini lunch, and delight in the speech would be and the poor working guy can deduct the price of his bologna sandwich. What he would do just to lighten things up a little bit, he said, and a poor working stiffs like Carl Leubsdorf or tom oliphant cant deduct the cost of his piece of butter and jelly sandwich. When he was in erie, pennsylvania, i think, why did he do this . I realized and get back to access. I was talking to mcgovern on the plane just before he got off. So i was probably slightly in his mind. Ive been come also he was losing the election and he was sort of trying to have a little fun because this was not going to end well. That was fred dutton. He had a great one for bob kennedy who always close his speech with the famous quote from George Bernard shaw, some people see things as they are and ask why, i dream things that never were and ask why not . And several times Robert Kennedy would say into the microphone, and so, as George Bernard shaw said, lets all get to the press bus. [laughing] and the mood with lighten. Access was very different. And the contrast was so profound because nixon was invisible, absolutely invisible. He was nowhere to be found. It finally became a story at the end of the campaign. And i think all of us felt that no one was pressing him from the outside to come out of the bunker and meet with the press. He just would not. And he would engage. Just before 72, one of the boys on the bus who at the time was representing the kennett newspaper chain and would later be far more famous deservedly for that was jack germ on. And he he wasnt at the Baltimore Sun . No. Technically it was albany i think but at the time it was real chain, a serious one but things like usa today had not happened yet and they did the call of the washington star first and 77 but anyway, jack had the idea after the 60s that we needed, people do politics brightly needed to have regular access to the people who were running, just to talk and get to know each other. And so we organize something which one of us, i cant anyway, it was called political writers for a democratic society. And there were maybe seven or eight of us, and we would have supper at somebodys apartment or house, and the candidate in 18 only would come. And it would be it wouldnt be off the record. It would be on what they call a badger deep background and meaning you could achieve anything, you couldnt even allude to your having talked to a fellow. It was a you could use a quote. There were ways you could say it but you could say it directly and, of course, no pictures. And no broadcast and no wire wires. We were included. You famously, did you ask gingrich whats on camera oh, yes. Just between you and me. [laughing] my wife had some dumb dogs been up in upstate new york who everybody knew was thinking of endorsing ted kennedy for president , this guy was batting tennis ball back and forth with a bunch of us one day, and my wife finally said, well, the cameras are running, off the record, coxon, are you going to endorse kennedy . Oh, yeah. [laughing] the lights are on, the cameras are rolling and they get a microphone on. I mean, right . But these things were incredibly useful. I was a very young man. Very old now but i felt like i knew these people. And in a pinch you could have a candid conversation. Do you think you guys were more irreverent then . He quotes you at one point wendy gordon a while comes out to give a talk to the bus on mcgoverns new economic plants is just released and he starts talking any quote you as saying boy, i put a lot of bullshit before but this takes the case. I mean, it kept going we eventually in effect through gordon off the bus, just gave up. There was another moment which tested all of us and was very illustrative of what was happening then and you can compare it to now. Mcgovern was an early proponent of whats been called in economics the democrats. Every citizen has a certain account they start out in life with. 1000 a person. How is that different from its more common today. Yang doesnt now. Nixon had a version of it in 1969, believe it or not. But this thing came out, and it was all new. It was called liberal at the time. It wasnt clear how much it would cost. Anyway, about a month ensued up almost aroundtheclock, ruthless examination of this proposal. They did didnt know how mut cost. Reflected the [talking over each other] nobody had gone into an issue like this with the candidate that deeply. After the election, i wish i could remember which Journalism School did it. There was more ink spilled exposing the deficiencies of mcgoverns economic proposal and have been expended on watergate to that time. Oh, my goodness. [inaudible] that made it very there was no internet. It wasnt written about. You could say things off the record and talked candidates off the record and it wouldnt be quoted. It reported today turns to another reporter in the White House Press room, assuming they have pressroom still and says something, its likely to be on the internet two minutes later and he will have to explain it. I would also the Eastern Liberal establishment practice was alive and well, as it probably is today. And all i would guess, most all of the reporters did vote for mcgovern. They probably did not vote for nixon, and yet i think all of us believed so strongly that if we happen to be, as an individual citizen, someone who might want to vote for the person, we would bend over backwards to be critical. I thought that every reporter went overboard being critical of mcgovern, just because they did not want to be accused of soft peddling him or his message. Do you that still happening today. As happens with the times coverage of Hillary Clinton in 2016 2016 and tapping with the times coverage of biden today. Look at the times every day theres a story about something biden is doing wrong. I assume hes going to finish eighth in iowa, if i read the times. I was up on what connie was saying and ask her something, and that is, when you are out there, when you were out there, with the microphone, how did you know what to ask . You were not just sticking the microphone in peoples faces. You were one of these people prompted people like mcgovern to Say Something to get some fresh sound for something. But it required that you be completely up to speed first thing in the morning so when he came out of the hotel to get in his car in the motorcade, if you had a newsy question who are likely to get a newsy answer. Thats what you did, right . Yes. Thank you for knowing that. The way it was done then is that everybody didnt travel, or on the ground especially, in one giant scrum of 50, 100 people, particularly particularly in general elections after the conventions. Reporters are divided up into shifts, morning, afternoon and evening usually. And seven or eight of them will represent all their colleagues at stuff where they cant fit everybody in and they are called pool reporters. And so i i would maybe have tht duty every other day or something, but you have it 24 hours a day. Were about out of time. I want to ask you, carl, tim talks about the folly of trying to cover the campaign from 30,000 feet. And still a lot of the reporters got it wrong about the Mcgovern Campaign because you said, you told your going around seeing large crowds and enthusiastic crowds. There were no polls. Polling was in its infancy. At one point mcgovern was up 20 points in the field poll in california. We thought he was probably losing but had these enormous crowds everywhere. I got off the plane about a week out to go back to ap headquarters to do the main story and i was stunned to discover that no thought he was going to carry anything. So you did not really have same information as everyone has today. Now, i would say today everything is so poll driven, thats another story. One last quick question for goaded audience, one quick question. What was the best prank . There was some pranks on the bus. Well, yes. Or maybe you cant tell. One of things that was different about 1972 is you started to get something that is a common feature of the president ial campaign you see today and thats the arrival from somebody from vanity fair or gentleness quarterly esquire, you know, those kind of magazine big shots. Sometimes they come out now to write about the press. I noticed there was a big story in the style section this morning of the Washington Post about who is screwing whom out that i would. I know they did that. They were not doing that in 1972. Cabbages quickly ask you, this woman who was a nixon spy lucy with the cigarette holder. Lucy goldberg was a nixon spy and was on the zoo plane and later reappeared some years later as a friend, confident of Monica Lewinsky and help break that story. Is still a columnist i believe. She was there every day. We thought she was writing a book. I do this you would see her standing, she had a secret holder and a drink more often than not. She talked into a tape recorder and supposedly she said she was doing a book, and she would mumble these ridiculously detailed things into it. There are 500 people here. Mcgovern looks tired. Ridiculous things. It turned out this was going to haul the mens office every night. It didnt come out until the hearings the next year. Anyway, one of these go ahead. I told the one of you already, somewhat. One of these fancy magazine reporters showed up, and dressed beautifully, sachs at least havt a designer and a handbag that had to have caused four figures. I just could not take my eye off it. The campaign was going to San Francisco that day, and by the time we got there we were pretty lubricated, and not particularly pleased with this big bigshot arrival. She was sitting towards the front of the bus, hardcore were sitting in the back. She put this, i dont know persons, whatever it was, spectacular thing in the aisle. Well, in those Days Campaign buses, press buses did not come equipped with restrooms, and one of our number had an emergency as we were driving in. I wont say who, and he just couldnt wait any longer. In the back, on the backseat he tried to use a beer can, and mostly failed. [laughing] and this little this is San Francisco, so you have hills and all the rest of it. Do you remember the story . And then there was this huge cheer when he got home. It read welcome to president ial policy, big shot. [laughter] this is a very, very hard thing to break into. And the party has a chance to ask questions, room remember questions, make it succinct, dont make it a campaign speech. Yes sir. Greg sherman formally with ubi. Back in the days when this book was written, the three of you, colleagues like walter mears, johnny apple were sort of gatekeepers who i think sort of got to decide in a way ran for president and if you thought they werea serious contender or not. In our last couple of administrations weve had a president only had 2 Years Experience as a senator, since then weve had a president who had no political experience whatsoever area in the days of the boyson the bus, would either of those have been taken seriously and with a have gotten enough coverage to get elected . Obama and trump. Not aproblem. Remember that when mcgovern ran, when 1972 started to happen , where all of this way over the top concentration. Everybody covering that campaign had been through the earthquake of 1968. When the same thing had happened. Also in New Hampshire with gene mccarthy. And i can tell you as somebody who went throughit , there was never, the one thing that i thought was unfortunate looking back is that there was not much attention paid to what really was a historical change and that was the candidacy of shirley chisholm. I dont think any of us understood what a big deal that was but remember how big the field was in 1972. There was one debate in New Hampshire where they had know, they had to use two tables. I have been stacked up on top of each other somehow at some dinner. There was this crazy guy who threw the rack on the table and said theres not enough being done about hunger. Somebody named ed cole, still alive. His big causewas Public Access to beachesbut anyway hes running for president. Wilbur mills. Was running, anyway they had been stacked up like this and it was , New Hampshire musty dominated so much but theres , before i shut up, theres a message behind this question that im not sure i accept. One thing i learned from 1972 is the impact of what we do is almost 0. People had their own ways, their figuring out what the hell is going on. We play a role that i think most of us tend to exaggerate and its true, people dont get mentioned you should. Im sure everybody was dropped out of the democratic race so far would feel in some way slighted, but the truth is its a fair fight. But a mistake you can make is in inking that your impact is colossal. We really dont matter at all. Theres a big change in the new paradigm now. In print, television, the way i knew it. Television network news. Its actually lacks relevance in any way to today because of the internet. And information as if through the clouds and. But ask about trump, a lot of the things that trouble, they were written, there were stories about all the corporate things he had done and all the stuff he did in his people didnt care and they still dont care. And it didnt matter that everyone wrote about it and it didnt matter if it was all true. Nixon was an early believerin that. His operation was the first one, first one to be structured that way. They learned some of it with television in 68 but in terms of contentof scheduling, they had it down pat. Reagan did it in 84. And, but in contest for nominations i think the experience goes its a freeforall, its a fair fight. Frontrunner doesnt mean anything. That word finally got its comeuppancein our year. One musty was the front runner , the former governor announced a year earlier it was going around the country, no one was paying any attention to him so finally about six months into the story the New York Times said mcgovern spent a candidate six months and hes not going anywhere and forsome reason he called me up ,i dont know why. Maybe just because i had covered him so what should he do about this . Im a straight reporter, its not my job to tell him whatto do and the first thing that came into my head i said its simple senator, all you have to do is win the New Hampshire primary and he didnt win the New Hampshire primary but he did well enough. But the showingactually marked another moment where 1972 was a turning point. Up until that point there had always been a lot of attention paid to the following word. Expectations. And when you had a frontrunner, there would be a game in the 60s and into 72 of how much does he have to win by . What the expectation . Every night on a campaign setting, i credit jules went over with coming up, a bunch of us would write a song, a mocking song about some event or theme in the campaign. And in New Hampshire, the expectations one was done to the tune of rock of ages and if i remember the lyrics its david broder, right for me. Tell me what is victory . And the number that the muskie people fastened on was 55 percent. The famous quote is Marie Currier and if he doesnt get 55, she said ill eat my hat. What was it, 47 . And mcgovern one with 36 percent so theres still people who havent learned but that was the first moment to just all over. There are stories being written today about the expectations next monday in iowa. Before i forget, tim krause said of nixon, no president had ever worked so lovingly or painstakingly to emasculate reporters. Im sorry. Trump knows where he got it from. He probably does,actually. Could we get a word in edgewise here . Alas, you will not find my name in any of those voices, but i did have one small measure of advantage and that was that i had covered mcgovern in south dakota. Fresh out of iowa, i would soon find myself in south dakota in sioux falls. And they kept mentioning about this young rising Young Democratic politician, a democrat of south florida named George Mcgovern. I had never heard of George Mcgovern and he was the bay coach of west point as you know and he was about to run for the house against joe fowlkes, the world war ii flying ace, afl commissioner. And he won and you want to. And so that was a small advantage that i had. Tim krause said to me later, he said sometimes he like to talk about what itwas like to cover mcgovern in the early days. We never had that talk. One way that mcgovern did campaign good, the up bureau in sioux falls was more of a rundown office building. The elevators didnt start running until Something Like in 00 and i had to file the weather set and every morning in the campaign, many mornings during the campaign, George Mcgovern would go up those five floors without an elevator, stop by with a handout that he probably had written and typed himself before going off to a sales meeting or whatever but i had never heard anybody who was quiet so articulate or moving. The modern, it was illegal to be a democrat in south dakota when mcgovern started in the early 50s as a college guy and he drove himself around and in a beat up Station Wagon and built that party all by himself. Im going to test bills motor skills by making a brief statement and having my question the weather you come along for the ride or if im barking up the wrong tree, we heard a lot about the importance of staying lubricated as a reporter , it strikes me to be an interesting history of journalism to look at the amount of money journalists are able and willing to pay for what they drank and which establishment a drink in so i wanted to make wonder , going from a time when somebody dressing in very expensive attire on the bus would be looked down upon to a time now where a lot of people are drinking out of debt and graduate school to go into journalism and are i think having different kinds of drinks and different kinds of bars, i wonder if anybody has thought on the challenge for journalists today to connect with readers and viewers when maybe theres a bigger gap between the way their living their lives from the 70s. The mcgovern did campaign and provide, didnt they . They had charters. It was before deregulation everybody wanted to keep their monopoly and that meant Western Union, the phone company and my god, the first thing in themorning. I think it was provided. On the plane, sure it was. Its always been true on white house charters, there was always plenty to drink but the differencestoday , reporters dont drink as much. Its simple as that. You noticed that during the campaign over the years and it suddenly switched from blood he marries in the morning to minimum water. And you got to the mid80s or the early 90s and there were only 2 or three of the older guys were still drinking and all the news breeds that come along were not. You had to work harder to. A line i used to use that was expected that you always go to the table and picked up checks. And i was trained in expense living, dont leave a check on the table. And so i would reach in and somebody would object and say ill get something else. So its onlymoney , and its not mine. Good evening, tuesday call field, members of the press club, les demarco, New York Times editor said several years ago at the dawn of journalism was first evolving, what you see is news area what you know his backgroundwhat you feel is opinion. With increasing frequency, we see reporters on cnn, msnbc or fox offering opinions 24 seven. Is this moving journalism forward . As the husband of a distinguished journalist susan page who often appears on television, i think i actually its something of a problem. There are many people, there are some people i would say susan is certainly one of them can find themselves through analysis and explanation of what they see is coming and then there are many others who are expressing points of view and im amazed to see a reporter from the Associated Press where i once worked expressing opinions on morning joe, morning after morning but it seems like the news organizations like the prominence that their people have, prominence on tv leads to clicks on the website and clicks on the website means someones paying attention and the line has gotten very blurred and i think its not good. President of the press club and brotherinlaw, you quote that the opinion of, you think the bend over backwards not to favor mcgovern but this was the First Campaign after the white house used big platforms to attack the press, do you think that influenced your coverage and do you think even today in these organizations out there going after the press, thats why the new yorktimes is going after joe biden as you say or Hillary Clinton, thats influencing Coverage Even now . There are a lot of premises there. The question, connie has more perspectivei think that either of us. Whats your sense . I lost you a little bit there. Its two years into the attack when we all meet up there. I dont think it had any effect. I think we are just normal people. And i think when you are a normal reporter, you want to be, we all want to be fair and if we have a personal bias in one direction or another direction, i think we try very hard to push our personal bias out of the way and be fair. So consequently, if we were at that time appalled with what they said, i think we tried every hard just to be objective. And were all, we are all products of our own experience and we cant help being partly subjective, but we try not to be. Theres a reportorial fact thats worth putting on the table here. I didnt know many nixon or agnew people who really believed all that malarkey. It was a way of doing, politics they discovered good work. And there were times when it was almost a game. After that firstspeech , bill safire and buchanan are still , bill from the grave and pat is still arguing about who wrote it. The nattering nabobs of negativism. There are being games played at night them to come up with other alliterative phrases, some of them not printable and they all indulged in it and it transmitted to me a feeling that this is more of a game than it is something serious. Even today, it strikes me as otherworldly. But what i was talking about with the times is i think that is bending over backwards to show that in the times case they are not for the democrats and against trump. So you do it by being astough as possible on the other side. And i think they sometimes carry it to an extreme, frankly area. Doctor katz for water Citizen Media and you mentioned that people dont have the direct access that they used to have, they cant go to the Lieutenant Club and have direct conversations but at least a vehicle journalists are on the campaign trail with the candidate and it seems like now weve got this intermediary layer of the curators and the people are getting the news not fromthe people who are in direct contact with the candidates , but through whether its blogs or an article or something, that their compiling the stories and become that intermediary so does that seem to, who are the intermediaries . Whether its bloggers, whether its someone at the newsroom was sort of pulling in the information from the people out on the front lines, were not getting the story directly from the people who are following the campaign. Did you study all this . We have online news. As a consumer, heres what id like to take a 24 hour period. And somehow, get it all. Stream some events. If one of these handful of these blogs, whats the thing that has the circle with the line in it and you can only write 150 words or something . Twitter. You people read that stuff . Anyway, yes. But get it all. Give me a day in the life of 21stcentury media and tell me what its like. And if you learned anything, if it was all just a bunch of jibber jabber and then here is a picture ofmy lunch or something. Because its so diffuse now, i cant learn very much from the coverage, can you . I cant find the truth. Im having such a hard time trying to find out what is accurate, what is true. Ive taken to streaming events or getting video so you can watch a candidates event just to find out what theyre saying and whats going on. The horse race was three paragraphs in a daily story is now the story and believe me, it still reads to me like 90 percent baloney. And it doesnt have anything to do with educating me about anything going on in the country or whatever. Its just if you get this much in iowa, can you translate it to New Hampshire and nevada and i want to say shut up. It all goes around poles which are mostly built on sand. Every poll youve seenfrom New Hampshire to nevada , South Carolina and nationally will be worthless next tuesday after iowa votes. Everything thats been written about them and what was happening in those states will change. I dont want to wholesale criticize today either. I think theres such incredible investigative journalismbeing done today. Its phenomenal and i think that it runs across the board. In print and media in the New York Times and Washington Post but also some of the broadcast networks are doing great investigative journalism. So i dont want to pounce on the media in a wholesale way because i think a lot of people do what i do have a problem with the social media and misinformation that gets disseminated very quickly with nobody checking it. The oldfashioned way was we had editors, producers and so many layers of people breathing down our throats making sure that what we reported was accurate. And i mean, i was deathly afraid of being fired because it was really a question of whether or not i got this right and if i didnt have it right, i knew my head wouldbe on the chopping block but today , its not because people are not dedicated or whatever but there are certain outlets that allow into mind, out of mouth or into mind on the paper and disseminate it instantly. And thats where i have a problem. I cannot ferret out the truth. So i have to read all kinds of things to sort of come to my own conclusions as to what might be the truth and probably the best is actually to watch it. Whatever it is. Whatevers going on, watch it yourself and you come to your own conclusions. And the democratic side id say 90 percent of what i know about the race comes from watching each of them. I tried to do and even now in retirement a couple of events a day beginning to end, to just have a sense of what theyre like, that i used to get from my buddy here. I think one thing, there is in a way too much coverage. Everything is written and everything is breathless and no one is stepping back and saying that is important and this isnt important and you read, the post has done a wonderful job in some ways. Got a terrific bunch of, theyve hired every reporter in the western world who does work for the times, condos going to happen after the election but in any case theres so many stories about somebody people that i dont know where the truth lies. Im trying to sum up after the last question, that was a beautiful summer. So lets go to the last question. The last question, okay. Its coming from someone who has worked both sides of the bus and my name is bill outlaw. I used the work as a reporter in South Carolina, i was on the bus with the Jimmy Carter Campaign traveling around then, later worked for the Associated Press and Washington Times and i worked the other side of the bus for a long shot named governor dupont from delaware, for a long time i dealt with you guys on that so i wasnt very successful i guess but anyway, my question is in todays world with the focus and use of the term fake news and at first, how do you think the media are dealing with that and what would you advise the media to do to deal with that . I think we have to do our job , frankly and there are people in the journalism world who can take on the forums and seminars and tv, the concept but weve got to make sure we dont fall into the traps and start doing things to cater to that or to opposethat. I think most people in this room have a pretty good sense of what makes good journalism. And when political candidates for their own purposes do what the president has done. You can really not counter except by your job the right way. Is a piece of video that might illustrate my point, i think. Every few weeks or however often it is that the president goes off to one of these shows area. I have been able to find, there are not cutaways. I dont know what you call pictures of the press pen. About an hour before the event. And you see our children and grandchildren arriving there and you see the taunting and the in your face and at times, its almost physical. Its always extremely loud. And im struck at the quiet dignity of these people who just go in to the pen and do their work and leave and dont pay any attention to whats happened. Its a nice example of whats called grace under pressure. On the accusation of fake news hurts. What it hurts those of us who believe in the fourth estate, who believe that, in what we were doing. That we perceive a worthy profession and we were after class, we were trying to write wrongs of government or society or social ills. And we considered it an honorable profession. And even though others dont consider us pursuing an honorable profession, i think there are plenty of reporters today who are, so we still have thatmindset. Granted, theres a whole section. Of people who dont. And they engage in opinion and they engage in biased reporting area but honestly, my old friend, my old colleagues, the people that i knew were honest people who were justpursuing the truth. They just know one thing, these being very erudite and wise and eloquent. But i guarantee you if anybody in 1972 had treated connie the way some of these fake news criers do today, she have flattened them. [applause] [laughter] you have any final words . I cant top that. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you forcoming. God bless you. The bar is open here and there are cheeses and things to eat over here so please stick around and maybe we will have a couple of one on ones. Now on cspan2s book tv, more television for serious readers. Good evening and welcome,