No, your friend. Sidney crawford. She was the first fight i ever had in grade school. I was 10 years old and we started throwing rocks at each other. And i called him a sissy and thats when the fight turned on. Why . We learned at an early age that the worst thing you can be called as a boy, is a girl. I just came from Catholic School and here we were, fighting for dominance on the playground. As soon as i evoked gender in the conversation, that from the fight happened. Why did that incident that was you so much that you left it in your book . Because it was, going back to fundamentally how boys learn what it means to be a man and how we learn to juxtapose girls are in our lives. It was that moment. That thing that happened at a very early age. My will is i dont Like Fighting number one. And number two, what me to 10yearold boys start rolling in the gravel, fighting because one of them questions the others masculinity. In your book, you write, we do not raise boys to be men. We raised them not to be women or gay men. That came from asking man, what does it mean to be a man . And i heard dont be a sissy. Dont be a fag. Is that part of locker room culture and building a bond . I would say that part of patriarchal culture. Understanding who men are. Masculinity is this thing of share our feelings, dont discuss our feelings. What i refer to as the blind thought of masculinity. We dont talk about these things so we dont get better at these things. Did you feel that way while you were in sports . Theres no question. Not just to not talk about emotions but anything more broad of who i was as a person. I listen to six songs before every football game. People think they were headbanging songs. Two of the six songs were from the film, those of things i thought about a lot as a young boy. As i progressed as an athlete, those things i realized i wasnt practicing. Did you feel uncomfortable being around other guys in the locker room . I didnt feel comfortable because the performance of masculinity is something we learn at a young age. I knew how to function. I didnt feel comfortable like i wasnt being true to myself but there were so many things i was not bringing to the environment. That made me feel uncomfortable with who i was presenting. Has the world changed . I think its changed dramatically. The very fact we are having this conversation. I wrote this book in 2001. I went on oprah and was given the name of the publisher. And i was told the people need this book, men, dont buy books. That was 2001. I think weve changed a lot since then. You write that essentially, removing the dogma of heterosexuality exclusive claim of marriage takes power and control away from men. You move into social issues in this book. I do. I think one of the things we often do is we hide from important conversations and we will blame religion or family or culture and it keeps us from a more progressive and enlightened conversation. Have we had a reaction from your former syracuse teammates or nfl teammates . The reaction has always been positive. Men will say you were ahead of your time. Or they will wonder how i got involved in the conversation. But for the most part, by and large. This is why i reject what was told to me in 2001, that men dont care. I believe that men do care. Thats what the conversation is about. Does your attitude threaten football in a sense . No, im critical of football but im critical of a lot of things. Im critical of things i care about. In order for us to progress, this goes back to the blind spot. Im very critical of men but i love who men are. I love my father and themen in my life. In order for us to be better , we have to be critical of ourselves. A portion of your book deals with ray rice. What happened . Maybe not so much the incident or reaction. But one key point that happened in the aftermath of ray rice was why i stayed. Married him in the aftermath of all that. People want to know why did she stay. The question we have to ask is why did he stay . What is it about men that staying in an abusive relationship, and unhealthy relationship is not something we as men question. Why we stay in a place thats not so fulfilling in our own cells. You go on to say that the semantics of sexism perpetuate myths. Its the way wes that cite statistics. We dont talk about how many men are involved in that conversation. The way we frame the problem by calling it womens issues. Allows men to do nothing, quite frankly. If we call it womens issues, its not for us to deal with or to truly understand. Were you raised to be a man . Were you raised with some of these values . I was raised talking specifically about my father. By a gentle, stoic man. But he did not intentionally talk about masculinity. So his silence made the prevailing culture, that i was around, especially the sports culture to demonstrate what it meant to be a man. Thats only half the story we are being told. I do say i was raised by a gentle, loving, caring man and parents. But their silence made the cultural narrative morepowerful in my life. You go on to talk about mandate , performance, promise and lie. The mandate of masculinity is what were told to be. Be a man. Suck it up. Performances all the things we do to do those things that masked our true identity. That we are loving and caring and sensitive. Little boys were loving and sweet have to perform this thing of masculinity where they have to not like and do the things there may do. Take on this performance of masculinity. The promises as long as we do that, where in the club. Thats part of the promise of masculinity. As long as we are silent and buy into this narrow definition of masculinity, then we are okay. Dont be a sissy and those other things. We dont raise meant to be men, we raise them not to be women. And the light is, thats a lie. Men are loving, caring, sensitive, vulnerable. Thats not my feminine side but thats the reality of my wholeness as a person. If you have those qualities front and center, we are not teaching boys to behold men. At one point were you recognized to have some quarterback talent . I was probably 1112 years old. All of a sudden i was a commodity in the sports world. I transferred high schools to go to a school that had a better football program. It was part of my talent that led me to a high school and a scholarship at the recuse. It happened at the very early age. What was that like . I think you learn the performance of masculinity in a much more acute way. You learn that not only do you have to be this mans man but now you have this other player as a football player. Theres a certain way you have to adhere to the team and the culture around you that you no longer just revisit yourself if you represent the school, the town and the city in many cases. Did you feel like a phony at that time . Not a phony. Because what i did was when i was faced with adversity, i would draw. I wasnt perpetrating myself to be a mans man that i really withdrew. In high school, i started wearing a shirt and tie to class. And i did all through college but i wanted to project a broader understanding or a broader perspective and persona than what people expected of me. Back then, i really thought it was about my race. I didnt want to be the black kids from the neighborhood just using football to get out of a bad situation. I came from a middleclass, wonderful family. My mother was a school nurse and my father was a police officer. I wanted to project something broader than what the world was seeing. What kind of pressures is an all american quarterback at Syracuse University face . As basically a kid. Yeah, exactly. The biggest pressure is that you are living, whats really ironic about sports. Its an extraordinarily vulnerable endeavor. You really go out and play in front of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands. Now with media, millions of people. Ive always said whats ironic about talking with you is the a its only to reality tv. Its cspan and sports. We will find out, the game starts at 9 00 and we will find out by midnight who wins and it will be the human experience. Thats the biggest thing that athletes face. Did you ever think about dropping out because of the pressure . No. I always felt like there was something bigger. I think this book and the reason i wrote this book is part of that. I think there was a bigger narrative to be told. If i was going through the experience, i knew there were life lessons. That i needed to share. So i was documenting that. The first book i wrote that i never published was titled, i thought it mattered. There were all these things about sports that we think matters. Theres no i in team. All that bs. All the altruism we assume was all bs. All part of the performance of masculinity. I always felt like there was something i had to tell in this process i was going through. So youre masculinity was commodified in the sense. Absolutely. I write about a game that was the absolute worst performance ive ever had in any sporting event from the time i was 10 years old and it was the last game i played in Syracuse University. All people remember was the last 90 seconds. When West Virginia scores. We drive the length of the field and when by appointed everyone remembers that last 90 seconds. Its an the chapter about hyperbole and myths. The reality of that game, that was the worst football game, the worst performance. I threw four interceptions. I gave the bull to virginia five times. The ball. That 90 seconds made you the hero. Thats why my masculinity was commodified. Five or ability, my lack of preparation, characterize the first 58 minutes. Do you have sons and let them play football . I dont have sons but i would certainly let them play football. Theres talk now about paying College Athletes and its started in california. What your overall thought about that . I think athletes get paid with education. If youre saying athletes should get money and we dont fulfill the first promise of a meaningful education, then youre saying theyre not worth the time of Higher Education. The purpose of Higher Education is to get an education that takes you beyond your life. Its to have a job. We should be educating them about the multibilliondollar industry that surrounds them. Don mcpherson, do you think there are more men in the locker room and young guys in the locker room who feel the way you do . But feel trapped. Men see the need for accommodation. I believe i would be doing this if it wasnt there. Down is the author. He has served on the board of news ncaa Sexual Assault task force and the board of governors