I went to begin our conversation with an interesting theme i kept coming back around two in your book which i think eliminates a lot of this historical moment and contradictions we currently have. In your research it seems that the young men that you talk to have at least the beginnings of an understanding of the changing Politics Around sex and gender. And they even go so far to offer prone hands and one pronouns and feminine consent and the changing conditions but they also seem haunted by ideas of masculinity and sexuality you wrote a man was critical of the markers of masculinity but also aspired to them like there is a ghost that follows these young men around and i was hoping you could talk about that. It is almost as if they layered the new expectations on top of the old ones without challenging or looking at or eliminating the old ones so yes on one hand they see them deserving in the place in the classroom but that is all the public arena but in their private life they are still encouraged to see a man as a sexual conquest with as many partners as possible and not treating them very well so when you hear boys in the locker room talking to say i hammered or i banged and i nailed like a construction site not that they and to struggle with that contradiction you talk to a lot of young men and those traditional facets of oldschool masculinity. And at times they would tell you they were afraid of things such as empathy and it sounded in your conversations you found young men as if the misogynistic culture hurt them as well . I think it did and i felt like girls were systematically disconnected wherewith boys like they were systematically disconnected from their heart. So less ideas of vulnerability and what it meant to be vulnerable to avoid crime that was a big taboo so one of the guys he spoke with he said i never cried but then his parents got divorced and he wanted to cry but he couldnt so he watch three holocaust movies back to back and that worked. But when we cut them off vulnerability to put Everything Else behind a wall to offer that fundamental part of humanity. That young men are really detached from their own emotions how they feel about themselves and the world around them. And i was captivated and then you have those conversations with young men and time and time again the concept you were bringing up to use that as a want and need and desire so it seem like you broaching a subject with that may have been the first time they have considered it and they seemed even shocked. That was an amazing thing. First off how eager the guys were to t19. I thought i would find monosyllabic transcripts but that given permission and space i think that because i am a woman that gives them more permission to wrestle and to talk about feelings to drop that mask. I trained myself not to feel. One guy said we just wanted to confide. So as the author of the previous book girls and sex how did you feel approaching the subject . Its obviously some New Territory there are limitations so how do you feel as a researcher coming into this project quick. I have to say i resisted so thats what i know but nobody was hearing what they had to say that was a new era with terms of technology and to know whats going on inside of their head. And then youtube exploded that put attention on boys behavior because of reduced Sexual Violence but it also created an opportunity to engage boys in this conversation about sex and intimacy in gender dynamics. You bring up the me too metoo revolution and it seems like its always a shadow in the background of the conversation. The young man that you talk to see not only cognizant that some of them are aware it is something they should be considering or changing their behavior. Where do you find how they see the world . Everything you just said. Thats what i found guys that were wrestling with it or in denial or one of the issues i think is only monsters assaults. Like an overarching idea to the every day coercion and that Sexual Misconduct everybody thinks they are a terrific guy but sometimes a terrific guy can do a bad thing and thats what we have to reckon with. So with all of the metoo allegation what was interesting although not responsibly reported is not really was a matter of valid that ethics in every day power dynamic of an over eager guy pushing a young woman to do something she doesnt want to do and to see her limits as a challenge he is supposed to overcome. Its a great one to have a discussion about with boys. Near the end of the book and you gained an idea what was going on in this culture you talk about this idea of the infamous situation of Sexual Assault and there are these letters that say hes a good guy and the underlying inherent meaning is that a good guy cannot commit these actions. Did you walk away from your research and interviews . And how we respond to these situations maybe will have to have a lot more conversation. That yes guys tend to over perceive especially with the drinking in the party hookup culture. They are less likely to hear know when they are drunk. Less likely to perceive a partners hesitation. So with the impact of drinking on girls behavior or vulnerability that we have to shift that conversation to help the boys understand how alcohol affects the power dynamic and behavior. I think it is a taboo subject talk about sexual education and not just up to the level in order to find a new way forward or to educate young men or anyone for that matter. And to talk about it as a problem sexual education is to prevent problems. So when you finish this book your idea of sexual education how this realm should work. Thats true as americans we tend to focus on risk and dange danger. We need to make a shift to responsibility. I understand most parents would rather poke themselves in the eye with a about sex and sexual pleasure and reciprocity. But we dont have the luxury anymore to remain silent about these issues in todays world they would be educated by media and porn. And with gender dynamics. And all these other issues and this is the first time actually i was more prescriptive at the end of the book. In the past i always took the reader into a scene or a place as a way forward but after nine years of writing the adolescence and sexuality i felt i had something to say. You have a substantial claim in the book that parents talk to their sons about sex and at one point with that other resistance but at the heart of the book is the heart of that conversation so you also share an eyeopening contrast that dutch children betheir sexual education as early as four and as teenagers family sanctioned sleepovers with their significant others as early as 13 or 14 but they have better relationships and have sex at later ages and they report more satisfaction. Talk about that. That is an interesting concept. The research that compared it was apples to apples. That the dutch girl has everything we say we want for our kids. To be prepared for the experience responsibly lower std and less likely to be drunk and more likely to be sober they could communicate with their partner everything americans didnt. So what they found their parents and teachers and doctors talk to them from a very early age about sex and that it made me think and then with all of their kids returns to risk and danger so if we think about shifting the conversation talk about responsibility and joy. I am a parent myself so that shift that mentality. And that is telling because it sounds the way the americans approach conversation with parents and children with apprehension and fear. And those conversations you have with young men and how they are approaching the sexual encounters or while they are navigating the politics of the whole thing it is always happening outside of parents purview or parties or unsupervised gatherings with the expectation and reading your description it sounds pretty sinister and frightening for those involved. There is miscommunication there is a lot of situations where people could make bad decisions and it feels like abdication has an effect. And it is a fair amount of trauma and that kids roll their eyes and plug their years we say we know its going on but we want done among dont want to know about it that i found the research of the dutch they use that opportunity using the terms of the sleepover with a significant other as another way to reinforce and safety sex and then to have a soft control over kids that we dont have and in American Culture we just dont talk about it and we pretend it isnt happening. Event having an open conversation on television feels a little revolutionary. It sure does and in interviews all the time that i never said this to anybody before ive never talked like this before i never admitted this it is like therapy. I got a lot of that like i really learned so much i thought i am a stranger imagine if they have conversations with people in their lives or even in their own heads. When you have these conversations in the book it struck me that you found a level of intimacy with these young men to speak about things they have never talked about. And the one thing that keeps coming up is the idea of fear. Its a fear of not fitting in order to be excommunicated from their groups and if youre able to move beyond that at the heart of this thing is fear. A fear vulnerability and shame it is a rare opportunity for those boys in a protected space where nobody would hear them talking about it. And those conversations you were having and it feels like young man in a vacuum with their elders talking about sexuality that they are filling that vacuum of the conversation and it sounds like a lot and its actually inherently dangerous with locker room culture definitely plays into rape culture and misogyny of the world. And talk about the role of male insecurity and peer pressure and how it perpetuates these ideas. That man box is very small it has to be policed in a lot of ways. So one way to be silent in the face of something that they know is wrong or in the face of misogyny or homophobia i have a lot of compassion especially for teenage boys with no support. So one said he and a friend tried to stand up to a boy who was saying things despicable about girls. They just laughed at them and mocked them. So a nice said stop talking and his friend continued to challenge and the boy said that he was marginalized. The other boy stopped liking him and he lost all his social capital here he has buckets of social capital that wasnt spending it. This isnt a guy who is like a big jockey and said i dont want to have to choose between my dignity and to be part but how do i make it i dont have to choose quick. I have that exact quotation written down. It struck me really to the heart of this situation. So when men put on personas to mask their security and one with rape culture is a lot of these men who are insecure that others around them are insecure as well and it turns into a competition to see who could be the worst or the least caring or the most misogynistic. And in this case a young man that you named cole. He was really lost in these conversations but at the heart of the debate in this situation and for you to talk to a young man like that, i thought was truly remarkable. And i really like what you say about insecurity being underneath the competitive culture. I got very interested in the word hilarious and how they use that word so with an active sex or that shield that if it is reprehensible or uncomfortable or inappropriate or is wrong you know it is misogynist or sexist and you dont want to say anything. Because if you do you will be targeted and then you can say thats hilarious and you save space. Hilarious is another way guys are cut off from their authentic self and their emotions. It also subverts a more compassionate response when girls and women are the subject of what they are saying is hilarious. And then to read and listen to stories of these high profile Sexual Assault one assault so often is a defense we just that we are being funny. We thought it was hilarious. So that word just encapsulates to learn to disconnect and save space and it is hilarious if there is no problem and certainly you dont need to feel empathy. You dont use the term save space but in that misogynistic behavior were in that rape culture for caring about how other people feel. One thing that kept coming back with the awful things that were covering up their own insecurities is these are people who did not feel as if they were safe and cap coming around to the idea they had to pretend in public. What is the disconnect what is happening with young men to make fun of these things but seemingly in search of their own safe place quick. When you are a young person you dont want to be ostracized. So boys need support and encouragement and discussion to bring that culture down. You need to be able to connect boys to one another to let them do that. I just got a letter today he was 16 a junior in high school and thanked me because it really made him feel validated like he can move forward. That it could be a tool not only for parents but boys themselves and to challenge that culture may be open up a more meaningful dialogue between themselves and their peers or just themselves. There was an aspect to the book for my own reading there was a portion where you actually talk to young men who were actively engaged in hookup culture having problems with intimacy and interactions with other people. A really profound loneliness. Even some of the you would consider victims of Sexual Assault are taking advantage of they could express that and to even congratulate them with the selfharm and i thought that was really telling. The one guy who had a sexual experience said because as i guy it has to be great. Its always great. It is great. So yes it was interesting to me how often the issue of unwanted sex came up. Because we think of that with girls but sometimes they lead brush it off or make it into a joke or masculinity issue but a few of the boys, especially if it was their first time or if they wanted the first time to be significant and caring and had taken advantage of , they react the way girls react. They became angry and lashed out and got depressed. There was no reason to discuss that. So i talked to the girl she says dont give me that all guys want sex. But if you cant say no then you dont really have sexual agency. I cant so on be so sure you will hear it. And then to discuss and engage. And with the jot culture. And with the misogyny and hostility. And with the repercussions of these problems going out to the world for boys young men and sex quick. It becomes a smokescreen and how sports can be wonderful. Its team spirit and camaraderie and how to problem solve and learning about life. But that culture can in some circumstances are the worst kind of culture where where guys bond to brag about the ability of all of that happens as well. So athletes by the time they get to college or three times more likely than to being up on charges of assault. So that locker room talk for some goes beyond that. But one thing that is interesting to me is that a lot of boys that i spoke with have loved the sport they were playing dropped out not because they werent good but they didnt like the jot culture and they didnt know how to speak out against it and to be perpetuated by coaches as well so he said he could not handle the way the coaches and the players were talking. He not only dropped out of the sport but transferred to another school. Certaine that often its the wrong lesson in makes sure these young men steeped in things that cause the week toxic masculinity and it seems theres a pervasive influence in that. But boys would say about the pairing this with a more told us respect women, but that was kind of meaningless. One guy said to me thats like telling somebody dont run over a little lady and then handing them the car keys. You dont think they will but you still dont know how to drive. They would talk a lot about wishing that their fathers or father figures would talk to them in a really honest way about sex and intimacy and about their own regrets. Theres not a call church that we have any kind of authentic connected way, but if you can take the lead tha leap that woue such a difference. We have to drop the pressure either in terms of what we say or who we are. You can make a mistake and say i wasnt quite right when i said that i know its going to be hard if i wanted to and even if you have not had the most success in your relationship it doesnt mean you dont have the wisdom to offer to your son. Host i had a lingering question i was reading in your book. It seems like with a lot of these young men, you are one of the first to talk about these subjects and again many of them seemed relieved and to take to your counsel and wanted to talk about these things openly. And as a researcher how did you feel in the middle of this did you feel you need to offer guidance or that it was hard to be removed, how did you tackle that . I feel such compassion for those that i spoke with hi in sh a sense of connection to them. I felt like i was doing something for them just by having the conversations. Its to get them thinking and just kind of giving them space and room to think through their ideas and think through things that have affected them. Host you talked about some of the young men who felt relief from that and have kept in touch with you. Were there any young men who felt fear after talking with your felt uncomfortable or worried that there would be a damaging thin thing where they . There were those who were in fact and third for those that spoke a lot so there was a real brain range. What i hear mostly is that it watherewas a positive experiencr them. Host anybody that picks up the book theres a chapter earlier on in the first half of the book which deals with the prevalence of online pornography and their readiness of the albert. You said young peoples erotic imaginations are shaped long before theyve engaged in so much of the goodnight kiss, which again i had to keep going back to the beginning of that and move my way through and think about the consequences of the id seems like with men and young women as well i that comes with the internet readily available pornography have a different understanding of sexuality, their role in it, how to move forward, and also feels strangely divorced from any real connection at times. Guest its become the de facto for young people because they dont talk to them as parents were in school. So, it is natural to be curious and for that reason, masterbation is normal. With the rise of the smart phone and porn sites, they can get anything they want and a whole lot of the stuff nobody wants at the touch of their fingertip on their phone. Theres different kinds, but the simplest they are accessing, they are accessing what is easy, whats free. Its images that show something men do to women and female pleasure is a performance for mens pleasure distorted bodies obviously lack of connection and a lot of things i wouldn that t feel good to most people. A absent the context of understanding they would say of course i know thats not real but we also know that regardless of the media effects or thoughts, beliefs and feelings. So they know in a theoretical way that its not real but the what exactly is it that they think israel and they are definitely takin taking those io the bedroom. Host in addition to readily available pornography, you also get into these online social media dating applications that have changed the way that people approach sexual relations. I was wondering if you can talk about how thats affected the dynamics of it and the people involved. It seems at times that this has been a boon for certain people and ain others its been an obs. Guest in college obviously High School Students shouldnt be on those applications but in a way its a kind of video game. They dont really theres a lot of back and forth in swiping. One thing that was interesting he is how much it brought out sexual racism. You will see there has been a huge problem with people on profiles saying no asians or blacks. One guy i talked to was asianamerican and said he had been matched with a girl and they talked back and forth and it seemed nice and then she said well, you know, we can be friends but no offense identity asiai dontdate asian guys and e how is that no sense offense. Host in the conversations you talk about in this book it seems like the young men you are talking to are more aware than ever of this idea of diversity and inclusivity and sexual politics and the need to be politically correct, particularly out in the world. In one moment you had mentioned there is more acceptance of things like lgbtq communities and diversity or leered with misogynistic ideas or racist ideas that might be underneath the surface. How did you feel navigating the text and subtext of these . Guest that is what it was all about. There was a contradiction between the messages they are getting into the old messages that have not gone away. I had a real concern with gay boys in particular that on the one hand, you know, it is a neww world. We have president ial candidate that are gay, theres all this stuff where its completely different. Straight boys have gay friends. On the other hand, there is a way that the puzzle social but that nobody was talking to gay boys about the sex part, and what was happening is that a number of underage boys, both were 15 or 16yearsold were telling me about how they were lying about their age and going on grinder and hooking up with much older man, not telling anybody, obviously not telling their parents were there for an, and if that was really concerning. I said to one guy if he were a girl and you told me that story, i would feel i have to report it to somebody. Why would i not feel that way and this case . He sort of looked down and said i dont know. Its not great. So we have to think about how straight parents need to be better educated about the kind of things people of the same gender might be doing together. They need to talk to their sons about sex and their values around sex and intimacy and how they can provide them with social situations where they can have age appropriate experience. Host there is a harrowing account from i believe it was a grinder encounter that you wrote about in which a youn young boyu talked to said something along the lines of im not going to say it with Sexual Assault, but im not not going to say that it wasnt. Did you get the sense that the young men you talked to were taking into consideration their own safety and whether or not it was imminent bodily harm and it seems like they are very aware of the political and social capital at risk. But what about the actual body on . Guest are you talking about gay boys in particular . Guest i worried about a lot of them and their safety and the dating applications and i also worried that, you know, some of them were not on but they often were not using condoms and the rates of gonorrhea in the community are very high in becoming drugresistant. We need to talk a lot more to gay boys of the other risks and make sure that they are engaging safely and mutually and joyfully and allowing for human connection. Host i was mentioned debatstunned you to get this dor connections there are moments i felt as if they were coming out or the conversations with their families. They felt they were comfortable with the people around them but what do you think the new challenges are as people become more and are accepted in society and have t how to sort of find r own way . What you see is the future challenges were how do you see society sort of this is the third rail is to have education that is inclusive of the perspective not only for those kids that a old hits because otherwise those behaviors and identities are marginalized and stigmatized and they will stay that way at some level unless that is more normalized in terms of people understanding. So that is a big one. I do want to say that there was one thing about gay boys that i found fascinating and important. They were able to equip and navigate and sets the terms for the encounter because it wasnt obvious. They had dan savage who writes a column using the four magic words which is what are yo argu. At the moment of consent isnt just a yes or no, bu but its at a conversation and an openended conversation, the kind of openended question we want to encourage both kids in particular to be asking so that its not about one person saying yes or no to a prescribed idea of what the other person has, but its about having an openended conversation about creating experience thats going to be mutually pleasurable, gratifying and consent for all. Host those four magic words what are you into, but also i find myself thinking about those words and apply if you go by American Culture would be so hesitant to use them more or have the openended conversation after all of these interviews and interactions, what do you take away from that and what do you think it is that keeps americans from having these conversations . We just dont. We never have. Part of that is culture it is ce weird thing is we live in a culture that is saturated with this imagery and yet we are completely silent with our young people about what constitutes respectful, responsible, mutually gratifying experience it when you start looking at that it seems inexplicable and bizarre quite frankly. And like i said, if we dont talk to our kids, there are messages that they are getting from the media about female sexual availability, male entitlement, about disconnected sex as the ideal and that is what they are going to absorb and that is going to be there educator. Host after talking to girls and boys and completing these two volumes, what surprised you the most as a person diving into this and talking to all these parties what is the thing you are walking away from being the most surprised about were finding the most illuminating . Guest the most valuable is learning to have these conversations with the young people in my life and the young people in general. I wasnt born being able to come on your tv show and talk about this. I have just as little language as any person growing up in American Culture but it seemed like an imperative to me and if i wanted to help young people have more egalitarian respectful interactions and meaningful relationships, i felt like i had to step up. Learning how to do that has been the biggest step for me. What i realized as you can look at it as scary and excruciating and it can feel that way but therethere is also an opportuno connect on a different level with your child and build towards the adult relationship s you want to have with them and to show up for them and help them see how to have a difficult conversation because they wont be able to have these Difficult Conversations if you dont model it for them. Host obviously we are able to bridge some of these back. What advice do you have for appearance watching that would like to have that conversation or people that would like to talk to men about these topics . How did you begin, where do you go that is based on honesty and intimacy . Guest that is why i wrote the book. I wanted to be a tool and in the last chapter it offered ideals for the conversations to have, and i was hoping that that would help parents to have the conversation and that it would help boys to have the conversation. If you are watching this program right now coming you can watch this with your son and it can spark a conversation. You dont have to say tony about you but you can see how does that play out in your life do you say to others that you know. That is a place to start. You just have to start. Host you said something in the buck in a person debate co chapter that boys dont just want to talk. They want multiple talks, and open dialogue between themselves and their parents and their mentors and continue this conversation. Its a large topic but that i k has a lot of reach in different parts of culture. What do you think is the benefit of having this big giant conversation . Guest what could be more important than talking about this conversation, it is the thing that is going to determine your wellbeing and life. Research shows that over and over again its our personal relationships that make the difference in our wellbeing and happiness. So, by having the conversation, you are helping to set up your son or daughter for having far more fulfilled life. Why would you not want to do that . Host do you feel young men are hopeful about the direction of masculinity and manhood in america or as some have said its a hard thing to be a young man in america, but since you get moving forward . Guest i know they felt constrained and conflicted but also eager with something more expensive to engage in intimacy both emotional and physical in a way that would be mutually gratifying and fulfilling. I felt a sense of hope that they wanted to have these conversations and they wanted a better way to engage. And if that is the case, that gives me great hope that they will be a better way moving forward. Host as an outsider, did you feel walking away from this project an overwhelming sense of hope in terms of sexuality in america or did you feel that there were several roadblocks and things we had to take care of . Guest we are in a very poorest country right now and this is another place, Sex Education is about as polarized as it gets. I dont know what to do about that, but i do feel really strongly. I felt like we really do have this opportunity at this moment. When i first started writing the book, girls, parents of boys would say to me im so relieved to have avoided because they dont have to think about these things. And i kind of think really, you think you dont have to think about these things . That is the mentality, its changed entirely. Now parents of boys are so eager to hear about these things and have these discussions to read a book like this because they also want change and they realize that they arrealizedthat they wg challenge raising a man of integrity in a world that often gives boys a message that is the opposite. Host i have noticed in recent years in particular with the prevalence and the rise of me to a love of parents talk about the idea that they are actually fearful of having and raising boys and is a larger job now for some reason. What do you think is behind the anxiety . Guest it is the lack of conversation that somehow we think we have got boys raised in the way we have in the past that is something to be fearful about. You dont have a lot of say in what messages your son is absorbing and which way it is going to go. But if we are actually really thinking thoughtfully and intentionally about how to raise our sons, when i first started writing about girls 25 years ago, there was a lot of the same kind of anxiety, but there were so many parents and advocates and activists and writers that they can engaging in the ideas of the contradictory conflicting messages girls were receiving, and we are not all the way there. There is a lot of work still to be done but we are further and girls have a greater sense of opportunity and possibility and personal power. And now it is time we bring our sons into the conversation and allow them to have that full sense of self so they can be the man that we know they can be. Host thank you, very important book that i hope people will pick up and read front to back and start right over again and share with their sons. Guest thank you so much for having me. This program is available as a podcast. All after words programs can be viewed on the website of tv. Org. Interviewed the Washington TimesNational Security columnist about the threat posed by china. Heres a portion of the program. Its based on what the chinese call asymmetric warfare or assassinbased weapons. That is going back to the states with a weaker power that doesnt try to confront the enemy head on but tries to find its vulnerabilities and develop special abilities. The state warfare is one of those. Cyber is another good space warfare is a real born ability for the United States because the United States is so dependent on the multitude of satellite communication, finance, intelligence, military navigation and china has understood that and they developed an array of weapons. This is a Nonfiction Book that i included a fictional scenario for how china could launch a worldwide kind of pearl harbor missile attack on pearl harbor and in the first phase of that it would be knocking out the key Missile Warning satellite because the missile operates and we have good eyes in the sky that can pick up heat signatures and through attacking and destroying as many as two dozen satellites, the military could be crippled in its ability to function. And again, we were the sole superpower right now, but china is working to diminish that. Host and what about grandma alices thesis . Guest i dont think it is a valid assessment. I dont think the war with china is inevitable. This notion in the past going back to ancient time declining in the rising power will automatically go to war. First of all, this has been a Major Chinese propaganda that china is the rising power in the world and its working to rise its power, but the United States must diminish. What we dont hear much about the south china is trying to diminish the United States, but i would say that its definitely going to be the superpower and i agree with the strategy of peace through strength where they basically said if you want to prevent the war, make sure that the other side doesnt miscalculate into stumbling into the war. We will get started virgo i am a member of the event staff i like to welcome you to this morning but if you havent already done so