His new book equality in american dilemma 1866 to 1896. Unleashed by the civil war. You do not need to take my word for how wonderful it is. Equality is deeply researched. The struggle to define the meaning of equality in post civil war america. It is filled with fresh insight into the social movements that took precedent during the region. The inequalities that continue to shape our social and political landscape. Please join me in welcoming charles postal. Postel. You get to meet the author which is one of the reasons to come to an event like this but the person the purpose was where the author was coming from in that sense history books really talk about the past at all. There really about their present in the context in which the book was written written. I may make no secret im transparent on this. It was written after the financial crisis of 20072008. It was written in a context of occupy wall street a questions about the deep economic inequality in the United States. It was written in the context of ferguson and black lives matter. With the Racial Justice and equality in america. And, towards the end of framing this book and putting the book together the Womens Movement happen. After the inaugural of president trump. And this has been part of the me to movement. I am historian of political ideas im interested in social movements in the ideas generated. And im interested in the intersections of how you think about the relationships between the struggle for economic equality in the struggle for racial equality. How do those things Work Together and what do they mean. That is the present and which this book was a briton. Of britain. That is the agenda that was my mental agenda when i went through this material. The really great thing about this though. What i was studying was the post civil war decade. The struggle for racial equality at the end of the civil war. Because this time unleashed a title wave of claims for equality the americans are of course fighting to make freedom realized in equal status within the United States. Of the protection laws. The African Americans are setting up equal rights league. But in their struggle they push the question of equality into the center of american life. We have my 1868. The 14th amendment. We have the constitution actually equal rights for men which was a problem. Nonetheless it was an equal rights protection measure in the constitution. They were centered on the africanamerican struggle for freedom. But many other constituencies and groups made their own claims the most important of these included the farmers movement. They were making their claims for sexual equality for women. It was labors hour. The title waves of social movements it is a Great Laboratory for thinking about these relationships between the different struggles for equality. Now one way to think about this. Perhaps your people are equated with the outer stories the savage struggle for individual success this is the time of mark between the gilded age. The gilded age. Because of the rise of the corporation and the corporation and the rise of great wealth. Another way to think about the post civil war years was this was an egalitarian moment. It was a time when equality was taken very seriously. I think to call it a movement is one way to think about it. Can i just stop for a minute and invite people to sit down i would like it if people would like to sit down they would sit down. We are confronted with one thing right off the top. Part of the problem is there is conflicting meaning. At the end of the civil war there is one concept that was widespread. Abrahams lincoln ideal of a open field and fair chance. The equality of opportunity. That was a widespread ideal in the United States. What is interesting is the extent to which they viewed that principle. If you dont also had measures to head equality of condition. Unless you had measures to have a quality of circumstances you cannot have equality of opportunity. That gives us a very elastic broad form people wanted substantial equality. But actual practical equality. That meant an egalitarian moment. In order to fight for these things americans were widely aware you cannot just do that on your own. This was in a matter of a combination. You have to head solidarity. We had millions of americans joined associations. This is a combination and solitary. There were three really big ones. They probably have the most power in a political sense and in terms of sheer influence in the society in those three are the subjects of my book. The farmers range the temperance union. In the knights of labor. These are funny names except that they are sort of weird names for being important organizations. I would like to rename them. As a General Organization of farmers. That is essentially what there were in many ways. In the power of these movements and similar movements i think they make this not only an egalitarian moment in history but also a collective collected the moment in history. There is a lot to be said in terms of positive. We could use some equality and solidarity right now. It should be pointed out though. Much of this egalitarian impulse was fractured and contradictory and sometimes sometimes the egalitarian movements aligned and sometimes they did not. Sometimes a class. And the results were disastrous. They are part of how we can explain how this great collectivist moment results at the end of this time. Its that time of jim crow. Indian disposition. Lets start with the grange. It was founded in a federal office building. It was founded by six federal employees. It was formed by washington bureaucrats. It was formed in a federal office building. It would be a part of the department of agriculture. It was headquartered in the department of agricultu in terms of the department of agile agriculture. It was formed in 1867. It spread a Network Across the United States in places like nebraska a majority of farmers a majority of white farmers our members of the grange. They belonged to the grange. It was both a Meeting Place it was also a class organization. It have upper firmly egalitarian vision. The most striking was the call that sexual equality. Women joined the grange in very large number. There is no question to the extent that womens equality was important. The fundamental equality was fighting for was that quality of the farmers within the national quality. And the grange was the dominant force in american society. It was a force fighting against wall street and Corporate Power and for an egalitarian economy it would no longer discriminate against the nations farmers. Thats what their best known for. To regulate the railroads. Control the economy and control and positive ways. Some of the story i knew before researching. But the big story that i didnt know and it was just sort of a core piece of this book was the role of the farmers grange in the defeat of a reconstruction at the end of this place. There were experiments informing governments. In multiracial or biracial a good totalitarian talent. Government where africanamericans have the right to vote in the protection of the law and could participate as full citizens. By white power in the south. Massive waves of terror. The federal government intervened of course. They occupied the former comes better a seat as he and took measures to protect the experiments. This is an important thing that is happening in the south this is the context in which it emerges. What would be the place in american society. What happens is you would expect and i sort of expected that across the midwest and west where there were many supporters of lincolns Republican Party where there were many veterans of the civil war who have fought against slavery where abolitionists is strong. In defense and support. There was. But what happens is it was organized with the specific purpose of bringing the country back together again in healing the wounds of the civil war. Thats what they said their first purpose was. And they were going to unite the farmers against the mason dixon line. That was the purpose of the grange. People have heard of it. He claimed that shakespeare did not actually say that. This book is full of characters in that way it was a leader of the grange he had been a radical republican. It meant that you are for racial equality. Its someone who is favored racial equality. They had been in congress and fought the good fight for racial equality and have been a radical republican may 1871 he is a granger he joins the grange and he has decided the real fight is no longer for black rights. That has been settled because you have the 13th amendment. We have the 15th amendment in 1870. It gives Voting Rights to black men. The fight for racial equality is over. The days are fighting. He leads the grange into informing the block. Forming the block. To defeat any politician in places like ohio which is sort of a swing state. The grange has 75,000 members. If the government in any politician supports rehab debilitation is over. I think this is an important thing to think about. Let farmers democracy is the up swelling from below is making it impossible for northern politicians to continue with the policy of radical reconstruction. What happens in the north people in the north and the west there is the block against black rates in the name of fighting monopoly. This existing california in the grangers would meet elsewhere in california. The support of the struggle to overthrow the biracial governments in the south. Basically they were still in place. Not only do they not had rates. The ku klux klan was wreaking havoc. They were making the 14th and 15th amendment questionable so that is exactly the context however, i think this is why the book explains why it works. Its probably one of the most interesting its revelations that no one has explored before. There was these convoluted arguments to the effect of farmers and how they defined farmers as only essentially white farmers. They were being oppressed and set in set upon by the federal power. I will give you an example. After the civil war. Congress passed something called the contacts. It was a punitive tax to make the people who had waged the civil war pay for it. To a small degree so cotton planters have to play pay into the context. In the 1870s the grange is campaigning for reparation essentially to the right planter class so that the federal government will pay them back for that cotton tax. They didnt want to be equal to the blacks they wanted to be superior to them. You could put it that way. You could put it that way. In essence they are trying to unify the country on the basis of white solidarity. That is what is taking place. You will not find it dacias donnelly seen black things about its not going to use divisive language. We need solidarity against Corporate Power. And the corporations that as a language of it. Its mainly focusing on the railroads in the telegraph. But also the whole Marketing System in which farmers are working. We can get further onto this but this is the gist of it. Taking place. I dont think you are going to hear him using racial language in this way. He was not talking about lazy black people. For most of them that ive read. Its not the language that they are using. They are using the language of we need to head solidarity of the farmers against Corporate Power. That is in the north. Thats in the west. Thats in california. In mississippi and South Carolina it is is exactly what you are suggesting. They often were just straight white supremacist and even a fun group in some places. The shocking thing is that in this very bland language it is plain right into their hands in supporting these people. Now, i want to turn to the romans Movement People may know this and be aware of this fact but the Abolitionist Movement was a biracial movement that was fighting for the equality of black men of africanamericans and women. It was the platform. After the civil war the coalition splits in the division is basically the dissection of the Womens Movement led by Susan B Anthony split with this coalition on the grounds that the 14th and 15th amendment gave rights to black men but not to white women. And they formed a National WomensSuffrage Movement in the names are probably well known. The emphasis infamously in my opinion joined with the white supremacist campaigns to strip like people of the vote. In the name that women dont have rights in the constitution. White women dont so black mention either. I did not read the question prop early but i think that might be the question and answer. There is a basis for this. I do think they actually aligned with the most extreme campaigns against black rates there is a much bigger story here though. In terms of the Womens Movement. I dont think people may be acquainted with. And that as is the womans christian temperance union. It was nominally and you may know it as a campaign to fight booze. And shut down alcohol if that was the nature of this campaign. It was a christian campaign. It was a much Bigger Movement than that. There was a much more expensive movement than that. It was probably the most influential woman of the late 1h century. Her organization was ten times the size of the suffrage organization. It was a much bigger phenomenon. Frances willard was in not just not just some narrow person trying to fight booze. They believed in a broad broad human equality. They have a policy called do everything. Under this policy the wc fought for divorce laws. And child labor laws. And the age of consent laws. Womens Property Rights and Political Rights in terms of Voting Rights. It made alliances with the Labor Movement. They were advocating democratic socialism. Interesting the wc to w ctu is really quite different because it was also a place where africanamerican women entered the w ctu to fight for what might be called an intersectional equality of race and gender. The most famous women of this type was francis walker. She was a very well known poet and literature figure. She joins the w ctu to wage the campaign for both womens equality and sexual equality and she is a very articulate ways of linking these two movements. It was an important part. At the same time Frances Harper who is an africanamerican woman. And then they have the have of the w ctu. They have big political ambitions. She has ambitions of turning into a Political Party with political power and she recognizes that the only way to do that is to make bridges with the white women of the former confederacy. It is this a social movement social movement that is taking place. On the other hand politically she is following the path of the grange the power is achieved to forming alliances with the white folks. Frances willard made it close friends. Who was the wife of jefferson davis. The president of the former confederacy. Its done in the name of six sisterhood. They crossed the mason dixon line. Without the solidarity of the africanamerican women of the south. It becomes subjected to this political alliance. One a final movement and the is Terrence Pollard lease. Knights of labor. Worked in the Railway Yards and spent in pennsylvania. The most egalitarian of any of the figures that i studied. He built up the knights of labor as an organization that transcended skill he demanded that black and white workers have equal position. His compatriot described the knights of labor as the organization of the american working class as a whole. Because it embodied everybody. And within that context by opening the door to the egalitarian membership it was the organization of the black poor of the south. Cotton pickers, dishwashers. They joined in knights of labor in very large numbers. Size the coal miners. They were the basis of the knights of labor. That said, you have this phenomenon the achilles heel was its opposition to Chinese Labor which is a very important thing the knights supported the chinese illusion. It is the fatal flaw that we will see. We can see this in the book. It is a disaster for them in many ways. That is the way it worked. In the early 1890s the social movements converged into the congress. And formed something called the Peoples Party which is what we call populism. It really marks the high point of the egalitarian this egalitarian wave after the civil war. But the populist movement could not escape these conflicting visions of equality. In was essentially torn apart by that. The Peoples Party said no, our demands have to be first meant and the women pulled out of the Peoples Party. Similarly the black workers were sacrificed to the interests of the white farmers and africanamericans mainly stood apart from the Peoples Party and populism. That is sort of where the story ends but the problems of what equality means remain in force. Very briefly three takeaways. The first one is i think they may be helpful for thinking about think about our present political moment. Equality israel and america. Were always told that americans believe in individualism i dont buy it. Id think equality has been something theyve cared deeply about. That is the first thing. The big take away equality is complicated. If you look at the nominating process and the progressive wing of the democratic party. All of the candidates have ideas about equality. But they are actually different ideas with how they put together. I think that is so complicated. That is the second thing. My third point is to just take away. In terms of a hopeful take away i think. At the instigation of the knights of labor. Something to call fusion took place. In 1890s. And it was a process where the farmers white farmers joined together with africanamerican republicans who were fighting for equal rights and equal status in North Carolina they join together to fuse politically to drive out what was called the conservative corrupt regime in North Carolina. He brought about clean government. In public schools. In all kinds of things. Favorable to both white farmers and africanamericans fighting for civil rights. Fusion was real i key thing to keep things to think about that as these white farmers in these africanamerican activists did not necessarily agree on surely did not agree on what equality met but they agreed that they needed to align to defeat the conservative power. And they were successful. Temporarily successful. In 1888. The white conservatives cannot defeat this. They organize white moms that descended on wilmington North Carolina. It ransacked the city. And drove out the fusion politicians. Some people say we dont know how many were killed. But dozens and hundreds were killed. In this White Supremacy campaign. It does not mean that fusion was hopeless though. I did tell us something about how you might think about aligning different notions of equality. So im gonna stop there. If you had questions. Select i think the subject matter that you read about. You are more of an optimist than i am. It depresses me that so much of what they were trained to do hundred 50 years ago. We are still trying to barely get right today. I want to can you give me an example of a culture that has succeeded in these efforts. See mac. That is really heavy. I can give you examples of where i think good things had been done. I think the fusion government in North Carolina you may have heard of the moral monday movement. I think he is onto something. At the point is not that we should all agree. Its the that we should all combine i think that is a hopeful moment. Has there been points of that where we have done that. Have other people and societies exceeded in doing that. Drive hope it will happen anytime soon. I am his story and i dont know anything about the future. It kinda made it seem like the corporations everyone is rebelling against them. What kind of control do they head on the everyday persons life. Theyre back in they are back in new york city boardrooms. I think thats a good question in the sense that i think everyone was i dont think much of the fight for equal rights was focused on monopolies in that way. The antimonopoly thing was very much a thing for farmers and in a sense for the Labor Movement. Or the farmers the farmers it was a question of the ability to get their crops to market and to get inputs to grow their crops it was essential for their livelihoods their relationships with these big corporations. You could not sell great if you were a kansas farmer that didnt go through the chicago elevators. They were aimed at regulating those elevators. It was not a universal principle i think the Labor Movement takes up a section of that. It takes up the issue also for related reasons. But they also are fighting against coal companies. Its also a direct antimonopoly campaign. There was no consensus in the late 19th century as to what equality meant really. There is no one consensus now. But if you were to just take a look at the difference between what we think of broadly versus a 19th century version. It was probably not there. They were not thinking it was the same as many of us think today. The women necessarily want an eight late 19th century. Going to be on to corporate chin boards. Womens equality he really really had to dial back to how equal they were. They have no pop Property Rights. They have no rights to children and their divorce. I think you are quite right with the campaign. To overthrow this at the same time the touches on issues the issues that we are talking about. There was an important granger woman. And she was a socialist. She really did believe that it should be abolished through collective housework. Places that work the cafeterias. Everyone should have access to all types of employment. She campaigns that that grange has to stop serving coffee at its meetings because women end up serving the coffee. That is a modern sensibility. I think its complicated. Like the right to vote or the right to divorce or all of these things. Illicit dash mike listed the three different ideas. Are there three comparable groups. Could you find a comparable group. I think if you flip to the very last words of the book i find many things comparable in terms of we are living at a second gilded age. Record levels of economic inequality not registered since the last gilded age. Weve a severe with a severe crisis of sexual equality to think about the person that is sitting in the oval office let alone many others. And then the Racial Injustice and inequality. I see many of these things are comparable and functioned in similar ways. One of the things we dont have that if we dont have an associate a shuttle life where these things are worked out. I think that as a last is the last sentence of the book. We need to get that some attention. Is there a collective way to think about these problems. And thats a great question. Its one i wish i have an answer too. Can you talk a little bit about researching oppression project this expensive. Where do you start and how do you do it. It just takes a long time. Research is changing i have to tell you that research is changing it is changing some of this research. The first big chunk of the research came from visiting the archives the grangers archives are in the volts of Cornell University library. That means traveling through cornell and keeping out there. Thats re find it. And then the same applies traveling to the Iowa State Historical Society or to oldfashioned note taking in the archives. There is a problem that is going on for researchers today as a great deal of documentation is digital now. My problem was literally Data Management because there are thousands and tens of thousands of documents relative to my book that previously would have required a trip to an archive. Now its just right there at your fingertips so processing that these are documents from the 1870s and 1880s. The minutes of meetings of organizations. That has changed research. And ill pick i dont think it makes it easier it just makes it different that said i did spend a lot of time with the documents that are still in microfilm. Almost all of them are still microfilmed. Those are the three sources. The paper archives and been swamped with information that is now digitized. So thats why it took nine years to do this. Im not quite sure how i want to articulate this question. With how you first address. You are kind of surprised we have these different movements like black lives matter. And the different movements. I know you dont want to be prescriptive in the gentleman back here was getting towards this question as well. Do you see there is a tendency to get into a binary of anti White Supremacy and then Everything Else is there a way to find a thread of this commonality of all people towards a quality that you are talking about. You see in this literature and in the knights of labor and people like marie helen. You see it in Frances Willard. And Frances Willard. The impulse towards a universal the most sophisticated. She gets it from the angle that she brings race into it. That is where my heart is. The problem is at this point have this fracturing the fracturing today takes more subtle forms than what i said described. But it is still there. The only thing i can say is that in the meanwhile what do you do . That is my messaging. People who believe in equality better get on the same page against the forces of inequality i think there is a story there. Are you showing at least the three different groups that do have a purchase. He seemed to focus on the groups that ended up it seemed like away from their original mission and going with the white power people there mustve been other groups that are not doing that. Who were more africanamericans. They just didnt go away after Harriet Tubman and freeing the slaves. There had to have been more movements going on that would have wouldve countered some of that i would have thanked thought. You will see that in the story ida b wells the great crusader against lynching she doesnt give up. But shes at a time where there is a story in the book. Some of you may be acquainted with this. Frances willard is a global sensation she goes to england and people pour into her lectures. Ida b wells is a black woman who is campaigning against lynching and the United States. Shes from the south. Someone says to her. When shes giving a lecture if lynching is such a big deal why doesnt Frances Willard ever talk about it. Ida b wells says thats because shes an apologist. And this causes a brouhaha. Is what it reflects is the room for africanamerican activism is narrowing. There is no place for someone like Francis Harper any longer. They of course find different ways and avenues but the possibilities are getting shut down. Thats what they refer to as the native relations. Its after that that they lose the vote. They no longer want to recruit black men to vote against alcohol the same applies to the knights of labor. The world is shutting down. So its a very tough time. It doesnt mean they stop but their work in very tough circumstances and my book ends before they get there. Think about the contemporary moment as well as whats happening and other countries. To what extent the very machinery that is supposed to try to a quality. Its the factor is causing this inequality. I wonder if to what extent the desire to construct minorities therefore it easily falls back into a White Nationalism. That is part of the problem. A white majority. And that is a very distinct if she in this. I actually think just the arithmetic of how race worked bent towards White Nationalism and White Supremacy. And that was true throughout this time. In terms of the present i think it gets really complicated because one party sees the avenue to power is the exact same arithmetic youre talking about the other party as a party that if we can collect enough diverse votes we can win. Weve never had that before in american history. It explains why we have a White National president right now. And it also explains perhaps something helpful im not going to speculate on the future but it is a dynamic that we are facing and thank you for raising the question. I think you, this is been really delightful. Here is some of the current bestselling nonfiction books according to Publishers Weekly. John required recalls his life and memoir. And then in sam houston in the alamo adventures. They provide a history of the 1h mexico over texas. An anonymous author resumed to be a senior official and the trumpet Administration Takes a critical look at the president. Following that donald trump junior argues that the left is using Political Correctness to silence conservatives in his book triggered. And wrapping up our look at some of the books on Publishers Weekly non fiction bestseller list. Is talking to strangers. How we miss read the stranger words and actions. Many of these authors have appeared on book tv and you can watch them online book Tv Television for serious is television for serious readers all weekend every weekend join us again next saturday beginning at 8 00 a. M. Eastern for the best in nonfiction books. Host longtime Technology Journalist and author Stephen Baker is the coauthor of this new book called hop, skip, go