Is an accomplished chair at the university of virginia for the past 5 years and before that he taught at the university of california davis and boston university. He has also written eight previous books on topics ranging from the colonial period to the war of 1812 and be on. Two of his works have won a Pulitzer Prize in history in 1896 and William Cooperstown, politician William Cooper and his son, James Fenimore cooper. In 2014 the pulitzer was given to the internal enemy which is about slavery in virginia during the war of 1812 and contradictions of early Virginia Society. Thomas jeffersons education turns to the establishment of the university of virginia. He regarded the university is one of his signature achievements and alan got interested in pursuing a book on the subject after coming across correspondence between jefferson and an associate by the new school. Various ways in which the American Revolution impacted society and politics in the early years of our country and the story of jeffersons attempts of educational reform, the founding of the university of virginia certainly fits the focus but also has particular relevance on current Reform Efforts on controversies over structures, and funding over education. This didnt quite turn out as jefferson had hoped in the university of virginia. He envisioned establishing a democratized system of education that would cultivate a more lightened group of future leaders, would reject slavery and usher in a more it, terry and society but funding issues mentally the sons of wealthy families could afford to attend and many of them proved to be unruly and abusive students. Far from embracing reforms and changing virginia, these early uva graduates remain conservative, continue to hold labor reviews and on to serve in the confederacy in the civil war. All in all allen presents a compelling case of jeffersons noble intentions falling short of the inequalities and injustices of Virginia Society of the time. A review said allens book refreshingly adds real substance to the abundant literature on jefferson and a review in book page called it an absorbing narrative that offers crucial insights into jeffersons thinking as he pursued his vision for what he hoped would be a Better Future for his state so please join me in welcoming alan taylor. [applause] that was such a good introduction i have almost nothing to add to it. I want to thank brad and elizabeth and cody for their help with this event and all of you for turning out. I want to make clear i like the university of virginia but i dont think i would have liked it in the 1820s. It didnt get off to the start the Thomas Jefferson hopedfor. So in the book i have written i try to address three questions. First is why is it the state of virginia suddenly decides to invest in Public Education in the 18 teens . Not sooner, not later but in the 18 teens. This was a completely new development for virginia which was not known for spending anything public until that point. Second, when it chose to invest in Public Education why did you choose just to build a university and not, say, a Primary School system that would benefit many more people. Why would it choose a relatively Small University that was very expensive and would educate only the sons of the wealthiest families . And third, why did it go so badly . It is a story set in virginia but a story that has national significance. Why . Jefferson is involved. Jefferson is the most important figure in washington but after washington jefferson is the most influential figure in the United States in his lifetime other than washington. 1740s and 1840s. Virginia is the largest, richest, most powerful state of the union at that time, the largest population, it has more wealth, just about all the president s except for john adams come from virginia, the largest congressional delegation. Virginias assume they will be the leader government in the country and turns out they were right. When that starts to shift in the 18 teens they become very upset and that plays into why that plays into the university of virginia when they do. Virginia is home in 1792 have of the enslaved people in the country in one state of virginia. 40 of the population of virginia is held in favor. It is a system that isnt marginal to the stage but is central to everything, central to the economy, society, the culture. It affect every dimension of life in virginia including what is educational reform. Jefferson is a key person, the book is in part about the education jefferson receives. What does he learn . What does he value . What was he like as a student . Primarily it is about what kind of education does he think young men of the next generation received . And pays a little bit of attention to what young women should learn but his primary focus is on young white men. The people he expects will be the leaders of the next generation and he focuses on them for a couple reasons which he wants to change Virginia Society, there are things he doesnt like about it. He does wanted to become a more Democratic Society for white men. And he wants to end slavery but he wants to end it in a very peculiar way. His plan, he lays it out several times, is always linked to the forced deportation of he can never imagine a virginia in which whites and blacks can live is equals and neighbors and that is the great flaw in his vision. This is the common thinking of the relatively liberal people in virginia of that generation the blacks and whites cannot live together in safety in which both are. That is the great flaw in his thinking. Again, not unique to jefferson. The first letter from jefferson that survives is from june 17, 60. He is a young man, 17 years old. It is about education. It is about his education and he is writing, to control his money with his inheritance. He is asking them to free up funds to the one college that existed in virginia, the college of william and mary. The only place to go for Higher Education in the late colonial period. You might go to princeton the way James Madison did but if youre going to go to college in virginia, it is your only option and there are no universities to the south of virginia to go to until after the revolution and he writes as long as i stay on the mountain and the mountain is what is monticello but lives on the plantation at the foot of the mountain, a place called chadwick. As long as i stay on the mountain the loss of one fourth of my time is inevitable by companies detaining me from school. And learn more as he goes away to school. He is an unusual young man, the first and last that can plausibly claim to college. They got in some hijinks. He is the most studious person in the college of william and mary. Looking back on it 48 years later writing to the grandsons education and Credit Education for saving him from, quote, the society of horse racers and if he hadnt been saved from that company he would become as worthless. This is mixed feelings about virginians. They are gregarious, sociable, generous, not intellectual, not particularly hardworking, talking about the free delete class of gentlemen who prided themselves, theres plenty of hard work going on in virginia but they are not the ones doing it. They are the beneficiaries of it. Jefferson wanted to change virginians, make them more like himself, disciplines, hardworking, cosmopolitan, benefiting from education. This is one of the keys to jefferson. He does not want to confront them. Jefferson has a very thin skin. He doesnt like contention. They preach moderation, serenity, a life with agitation as little as possible. This usually isnt a good philosophy for a politician. Jefferson is a complex guy, very able, brilliant, capable of being a close critic of slavery. He doesnt want contention, the changes he wants. That is for the next generation. It is all important that the next generation be prepared to do the things he wasnt able to achieve which is the more Democratic Society and a society that has whitened itself by getting rid of slavery but also getting rid of black people. It is not entirely admirable what he would like to pull off but by virginia standards of that time he is considered a dangerous radical by many virginians who know the full range of his thinking. Jeffersons famous plan in 1779 for comprehensive Education System would have been Primary Schools, what we call high school academies, Primary Schools would have been for girls and boys, academies would have been for adolescent boys and the capstone, the third level of the system would be a university, one university. Initially thought it would be a reformed william and mary but he decided that william and mary was hopeless, was doomed and he would like to help kill it. And create a new university in the piedmont and you can see it from the top of monticello. He is a very good politician and has some powerful friends and they end up making an apps. The key moment in 17181818 when the state has a windfall amount of money it has gone from the federal government, it is not enough or jeffersons. In. Another politician says lets build the Primary School system first and jefferson says no, lets build the university first. I want to spend it on the university to educate many fewer people. This clashes with our usual thinking about jefferson is a democratic figure. In many ways hes a democratic figure but it goes to the peculiarities, to democratize society, but once the next generation to do it. He thinks the way you get there is not by uplifting the entire populations but by educating the future leaders in the elite families and they do it. And imagine what goes wrong in this scenario. Jefferson is getting to be elderly, a payoff before he dies and it is reasonable to think to build a university, one university to educate approximately 200 young men, faster than you set up an educational system to the state for fewer complications and jefferson likes architecture. He liked designing things. He will not design a lot of 1room school houses. He would much rather design a neoclassical campus for the university. He thinks by designing the right kind of architecture he can reengineer young men to be the kind of young men who will do the good deeds he wants the next generation to do. The problem is the young men who show up at the university of virginia are the fox hunters and card players and horse racers and they have been conditioned by the society they have grown up in. If you are to be the future masters of plantation you must be prickly about your honor. And need to make a show of the billy to practice leisure and generosity to prove you are not one of these moneygrubbing yankees of the north and to prove you are not some sort of poor white that might have to work hard and get your hands dirty and certainly that you are not enslaved person. This class has brought together, there are no scholarships at the university, the most expensive institution of Higher Education in the 1820s in the United States. They are the only people coming from these plantations. It turns out this Educational Institution is not capable of transforming them in the ways jefferson thought. This is a book about jeffersons noble intentions, noble in most ways, the compulsory deportation of africanamericans is the least attractive element of his scheme but how it falls short. Why jefferson is able to pitch this in the 1810s to virginians, they are very nervous because they are looking at census returns and finding out virginia is not the largest state anymore, not the richest state anymore and they are fearful, it is not the most politically powerful state anymore because it is slipping relative to the state of new york, they are nervous that ohio is coming up very fast too. Population and wealth in the country is shifting to the north. Virginians decide they dont trust the union in which they are not the most powerful state. They persuade themselves and the reason theyre willing to invest in part of jeffersons plan is if they can educate their young men to be the future congressman, and fend off yankee influence, jefferson has created a university in partnership with other leaders of virginia that has two contradictory missions, theres jeffersons preferred mission which is reform the state from within. And including antislavery activists so that when virginia will reform its institutions it will do so on its own terms at some undetermined date in the future. Turns out these young men from the plantations are much more prepared to fend off the yankees and preserve in a conservative way the virginia they have grown up in rather than to fulfill jeffersons vision to transform it into that. Happy to take any questions. If you have a question step to that microphone. You have a question but you dont want to go to the microphone. Just want to think about it. Throughout your talk, i heard you say he was waiting for the next generation to take over. Was that clearly stated or was that something he looked back on and said didnt look at my generation, i was looking at the next generation. When he was 43 years old. Any indication of why he didnt want to change the current he did want to change it but he himself is very thinskinned, doesnt like contention, wants serenity. When he was a young legislature. In a small way is going to improve the conditions of enslaved people. He doesnt has a young legislator wants to introduce this so he goes to one of the most respected legislators, where you present this. And this guy gets attacked by all the other legislators. We dont talk about that kind of stuff. We Start Talking about that and enslaved people get ideas we are setting up a dynamic that will lead to their freedom and wants to rise up in rebellion to accelerate that. Shut it completely down and jefferson right about that and says what a searing experience it was to see how all these people pounced. Jefferson never ever wants to take an unpopular stand. That leads to another question about jefferson and i will turn it over to others. My very shallow understanding of history, of the revolution and after the revolution is he was quite effective in getting what he wanted. Im surprised not that he was prickly but that he was thinskinned but my interpretation or understanding is he wasnt all that thinskinned. Between all of those, all the revolutionaries, it seemed he was out there pushing hard for what he wanted. Jefferson is a very good politician. He figures out what the majority including the majority of leaders around him want. And how he can nudge them in the direction he wants to go but also knows when he cant push them too far, major push back. Because he doesnt like contention and says in his letters that criticism or contention was 10 times more than praise was positive for him. Somebody like alexander hamilton, thinks of jefferson is a conniving, who will smile in your face and meanwhile working behindthescenes with other people to achieve his political ends and it was natural that somebody like hamilton would see it that way because hamilton doesnt mind contention. He is inyourface kind of guy who is clear about what he wants to do and confronts people who dont want to do it. That is not jefferson. I dont say that in the book but i can understand saying that. What happened to show field . The city Council Voted to scrap jeffersons first as a Public Holiday and what happened to virginia . They produced one of the most maybe above ohio. Last present from virginia and since then we havent produced one of the greatest of these, nationwide politicians. I live across the river. During the summer, only attractive thing is Thomas Jefferson, monticello and university of virginia and i asked my older kids, what do you know about show field and monticello . I didnt notice that until my children let me know. What is wrong with it . The question may be broadly, i have 0 clue to help me understand. No other expert i talked to, you are the authority and appreciate your help understanding these things. I will take the second one first. It is a middling state now and that is why its political influence diminished over time. Virginia is a changing state in part because the suburbs around washington the vibrant growing demographically and economically part of the state becoming more influential in virginia. The question about charlottesville. Very much goes to the politics of the city council and it goes to the racial politics of the city. Historically the Africanamerican Community has been marginalized. There sensitivities have not been considered by the city council and this particular vote, politics lie these days, it is about the symbols of who is considered legitimate or not. Those symbols are shifting all the time. You can think about all sorts of examples in other places than charlottesville. This is let me answer the question. The reason it was done is there is a long tradition of africanamericans feeling like there sensitivities have been ignored, and that is an extreme way of putting it. If i could finish what i am saying here. I understand the sentiment behind it, it plays out there in the country that they are rejecting Thomas Jefferson and everything about him. I have found it difficult in talking about the book with people and the press today because the question everybody keeps coming back to from both ends of the political spectrum, is jefferson a good guy or not . It is a terrible question, i believe. The question is why was jefferson so important in the time he lived in . What influence did jefferson have over his time . In what ways does that influence survive today . It was earlier in the 20th century, jefferson is the greatest thing ever because the declaration of independence, creator of democracy, separation of church and state, Louisiana Purchase, a pretty winning record. People did not talk about slavery. White people were writing history and journalism and so forth. It was not part of the story. We shift to the later 20th century, and early 21st, and then people are playing catchup and saying slaves are 40 of the people in virginia, jefferson is a slaveholder, talking about all men are created equal and yet he owns all these people, doesnt free more than a handful of them in contrast to George Washington and freed all the people he had owned. What is going on here . My position is you swing to the other extreme and say he is purely evil. There are people on city council who are just part of that loop. What i am saying, in all his complexity, think about the things we can still admire like separation of church and state, seeking democracy, american independence and also acknowledge he could not free himself from slavery in the end and say why is it that somebody could be capable of these extraordinary accomplishments and still feel that he could not do anything more than change his society other than create university of virginia and hope the next generation would make the changes that he could. I would like to think about him in a complicated way which we cant if every question is a referendum on whether we like him or not. You probably wont like my question. Having read a lot about jeffersons life, one thing that set him apart with his intellect and all this sort of stuff but also his arrogance and this desire to avoid confrontation, that led arguably to him being kind of a backstabbing weasel, certainly in his relationship with washington because they are very very close. Until they werent. Washington and James Madison and stuff that jefferson surreptitiously circulated about washington making him look like a doddering old fool and lying to his face and things like that. That separates him from some of the other people, madison, who also broke with washington primarily to sign with jefferson. You are with me or against me. I never understood that, the extent to which that impacted the way he operated. The famous quote from martha washington, the two most painful days of her life were when george died and Thomas Jefferson paid and condolence call because she realized their relationship and completely broken down. Maybe not where he wanted to go. It is not a book that is about his relationship with these other leaders of the country so i dont go into that and i understand what you are saying. There are times when jefferson tried to persuade washington to run for a third term which is a little jarring because again as you pointed out, he is working behindthescenes to plant stories in newspapers that make washington look bad. What really concerned jefferson was washington was so close with hamilton, they were a team, closer and closer team over time. And jefferson kept hoping he could disconnect hamilton and washington and hoped washington could become a more passive father figure and jefferson could replace hamilton as his Prime Minister in the system so he doesnt want washington to cease to be president because the alternative he knows is not going to be jefferson probably. It will be john adams which it was. And he fought john adams is more clearly committed to this federalist vision of the country and would rather have washington. It is very complicated but you are right. Jefferson is capable of doing things behindthescenes to his political competitors that dont look so good. There is a long tradition in our politics in this country of people doing similar things. A little bit of a followup to that question. So you said jefferson didnt like tension but he was a great politician and the second question as well. What do you think about that illustrates how great a politician he was . Second question in terms of the unruliness and an seriousness of the students at william and mary and asked uva in the 1820s how does that contrast to the northern universe or those students . That is a very good question. Jefferson made a great politician. He manages to engineer an Opposition Party that comes to power, a formidable first party that found of the federal institutions of the country, federalists. That is a tough accomplishment. He pulled it off and he consolidated the power of his party, the socalled republicans, not the same Republican Party is lincoln or later but the jeffersonian republicans, consolidated their power and destroyed the federalists so there is that accomplishment. And he achieves things like the Louisiana Purchase where he has to set aside his constitutional scruples and do something that was not in the constitution. He was a strict constructionist of the constitution until it didnt serve his purpose is at which point the constitution becomes more of an accordion. But it is a great accomplishment for the country, saved it from a real crisis at that time and on the local level, 300,000 doesnt seem like a lot of money now but to get out of virginia for Higher Education is an extra area, no one has done that before and jefferson played a game of chicken with state legislators which is they wanted to open up when half of the buildings were built, just get it going and he says if i do that they wont fund the other half of the building so i will play chicken with them and no one is coming in here until it is done. He largely fulfilled it. The last building in the rotunda was not completed when they opened the doors. He pulled this off. He gave it an indiscreet interview, with a visitor who came to it. Describing just how cleverly had manipulated the state legislature to get all this money and get the university built and unfortunately, he published the story, he is livid about this and said i never did any of those things which he didnt want to light to be shown on his taking a victory tour and he realized he had been indiscreet. What was the other question . The student. Unruly students everywhere. The worst in the south. In the north, southerners are the most numerous which is princeton. The trouble in the north is mostly over food service, just terrible. Students end up having food fights. And and confronting faculty members. And it is much more violent. This is true the university of south carolina, and the other three, they were older universities, in the 19th century. And and development and economist preparing asia to latin america, and the university at the end, len america, the upperclass funded the university, is there anything a parallel story. A perfect example that i found and the other question, my impression that the english colleges to get the kids out of their boarding houses with adult supervision and that was a generation to quiet kids down. And adults to supervise in the 15th century. They lived in boarding houses. They hated the students because nobody was playing them so what was the process by which the southern students the part of the book i have not gone into his Church State Relations in virginia. In the revolution through jefferson and madisons influence they destroy the church establishment. They levied a taxon everybody to support the Anglican Church which would become the applicable church. It is the highest single tax that is levied. There are 110 parishes or so in virginia all receiving tax supported ministers double as teaching schools. They are not truly Public Schools but they are is where jefferson goes to one of these schools in our baroque county. When the establishment gets taken away the anglican industry shrinks down to 1520. Education is in worse shape than it was before because jefferson had expected when virginians destroyed the church state establishment it would take tax savings and invest in Public Education and decided not to do that but to give tax relief to people. And jefferson regretted that. The question then becomes in jeffersons lifetime there is a struggle between jeffersons vision of a secular university, no chapel, no professor of theology, purely secular. Nothing like this in the world. Very important to do it that way. That starts to break down once he is done. People who are presbyterians, and get control of jefferson and give it a more religious mission. Including a chaplain and church services. And a presbyterian push. The presbyterian push never fully triumphs but becomes more powerful in the next generation, sometime in the 1820s, every young man in america is going to be a unitarian. It turns out that is not true. Much more likely to be a presbyterian in virginia. Or an episcopal evangelical. What happens is the culture of young gentlemen eve always in part through the influence of their mothers into a more genteel evangelical culture which promotes a kind of selfcontrol that means they are not just fox hunters and force racers. They are people who are going to church in a new way. It finally starts to kick in in a serious way in the 1850s. If you look at uva graduates who are active in the confederacy, pious christians of a certain sort, christian gentlemen committed to preserving slavery. I have a question which is a bit offtopic but relates to our relations today, to what you are talking about because you are an educator. I have five sons. I told them they should study math and chinese and they ignored me. Studying history . One did study history but one was interviewed by the Financial Times of london, what is the best advice you got from your parents . Study math and chinese and i totally ignored my dad. This goes to when i was growing up we didnt have things like africanamerican studies and womens studies and i thought why . Who need them . Over time, i am an old white guy, you may have noticed. A lot of things have come out the we never learned about. Im wondering, you as an educator what you think should i have told my sons to study, africanamerican studies, womens studies . I wanted to make this not a racial discussion but some of these other things. It could help with Critical Thinking and should have studied math and chinese. I think people should study math and chinese but also art and literature and history but i understand your point and this is the dilemma we are in this country particularly the cost of Higher Education has gone up. We feel compelled to tell students to start specializing in to specialize in things that will make money sooner rather than later. Entirely understandable because of the debt burdens families and students are faced with because the Public Investment in education has gone down. I feel your pain and i understand your advice. I completely understand it. I will never dismiss somebody who gives advice to their young people who have to cope with these debt burdens or the family has to cope with it. Understand that entirely. I do wish and what i push for it is absolutely more students should be studying math and chinese, but i still think there is a place to also have a minor, say, in history or literature or art or music and this will make them better at being Business People in the future. If they have the capacity to investigate things along several different avenues. The math major and study chinese, but be in english minor as well. Would be my design for an ideal education. William and mary likes to claim Thomas Jefferson as one of their alumni. I was interested in your discussion, and and destroy william and mary. When you go to william and mary and you have done this to talk they may have an ambivalence about jefferson. On the one hand they want to claim him but the wellinformed know that he tried to do the school in. Jefferson persuaded himself and had some good reason. William and mary was in a bad way, there was major violence between students and the community and faculty and it suffered from a setting that was very malarial. It was after the capital moved to richmond. Leaders of the college said they wanted to move to richmond and jefferson and his allies blocked that move and used the opportunity to say since they invited legislature to look at those operations why not take the money away at Williamsburg Academy and get their money and use it for uva and in the end they dont succeed in that. You have been to william and mary. It still exists but nearly killed at the time the rest of virginia was created. Exactly two. Yes or no. Do you have a description of an appendix which indicates the first few classes of students and the families they came from . It is fascinating. There is a guy who has written a dissertation rather than repeat what he did. Back then presumably virginia was pretty agrarian and pretty world. Would it have been practical within reasonable bounds of practicality to create a primary system of education everywhere or you made the right choice in a way, more bang for the buck since there is probably not going to be a realistic manner to do a statewide system. It is a reasonable question because virginians have large farms and plantations and they dont have a lot of village. It is not like new england was the population density in new england is twice what it is in virginia. There are also problems, virginia included west virginia. People do live more dispersed in virginia than new england and new england was the only part of the country at that time that had public primary education. Jefferson says it is easy for them to do because you can walk to school. A lot of virginians, too far to walk and a lot of virginians couldnt afford shoes. There is a lot of white poverty in virginia. People want to have education, and all field schools which were set up and it is hard to have comprehensive a Critical Mass of parents that would be willing to have children the right ages and they were reasonably close enough to sustain 1room schools and some years you had that and some you didnt. Still if there had been more money put into this to support these teachers more of these schools would have existed because eventually coming after the civil war when virginia isnt much more urbanized they set up a comprehensive Primary School system so you are right, it is difficult but they could have done more than they did because they decided to prioritize the University Rather than the primary education. My question is a followup. You mentioned presbyterian church, a lot more disciplined and when you were a stand up, the school was at the honor system. Am mythic history of uva, it is part of a bigger cultural shift, the honor code is very narrow that says you wont cheat in exams. It does not mean turning tar barrels on mom on and it is a step in the right direction and it is part of this cultural shift influenced by evangelical christianity. And and and you boil it down to and then why the university has come down. You want to set a good example. I want to talk about the scholarship that went into this book. Mentioned in the introduction, some correspondence between what initially drew you in. Can you talk about that. The correspondence between jefferson, and the chief person who gets the laws very interesting correspondence about the politics of the state of virginia at that time which were very regional. There is the tidewater, the piedmont and western virginia. I was interested in regional politics and how they play into the decisions of what kind of education, that was my starting point. The correspondence is pretty wellknown but what we tried to do in the book was bring in other characters who were not attended to. A guy named Francis Gilmer, the guy sent over to england to recruit most of their first faculty. He was considered by jefferson to be the most brilliant young man, the only smart young man before the university of virginia comes along and jefferson really relies on Francis Gilmer to get things done to create the university expect gilmer to be the first law professor which for jefferson is the most important faculty position and i find fascinating letters, he did not trust him at all. Gilmer was a young ultraconservative, the purpose of the university of virginia is to defend virginias way of life period. It turns out gilmer is the prophet of what it will be in the next generation rather than jefferson and gilmers letters are full of trying to save the university of virginia from jefferson. Gilmer is pulling something over, smiles to jefferson avenue space and going about writing to his friends and brother about dont worry, not going to be involved in jeffersons crazy democratic ideas of the future or a very pious christian and he is one of the leaders of the university doesnt get anywhere until jefferson dies and there will be a real influence, a real influence over what the university will become in the 1830s, 40s and 50s. You have to go to the mic. The metropolis article, and in texas, much the same ground. What what i get by reading one book . You should read my book. If you read just one. If youre going to read two you should read more mcginnis and lewis nelson. It is a collection of essays which is more about the longer run of the history of the university. Im focused on jeffersons lifetime. They are focused, they are like taking up a baton where i leave off mostly. There is some in the jefferson era. They are taking the story in a more thorough way forward in time to the 19th century into the 20 through. Want to sign some books . Happy to. Thank you all. [applause] copies of jefferson of education are available at the checkout desk. I will be over there signing and thank you again for coming. Booktv covers book fairs and festivals around the country. Here is what is coming up. For more information about according to the present festivals click the book 1st tab on her website, booktv. Org. Booktv, television for serious readers, all weekend every weekend. Join us next saturday beginning at 8 am eastern for the best of nonfiction books. Good afternoon, everyone. Notwithstanding the change in the schedule, were going to start on time. The new time. Son