If you are in attendance, take a picture and tag us at booktv on twitter, facebook, or instagram. Next on booktv after words, former Harvard Law School dean martha minow ab. Topknot fiction authors about their latest work. All programs are also available as podcasts. Full disclosure, you and i go way back. You were my law professor at harvard. You taught law. You were to no one from being an along the way you with the an dean of Harvard Law School. You were a law professor when i first met you in 2008 as a junior senator a man named barack obama. And i had a teacher who changed my life. Its a delight to be here and i have met so much from you. I love this book because it has your voice it is compassionate and brilliant and it is gently provocative. How did you come during this legendary career from the legal power cracks. I wrote a book about 20 years ago with violence in the truth of the conciliation had just started and i was so intrigued by the development of the new institution to deal with horrific violence and oppression. I wrote the book and with those responses to any horrific act and since that time why cannot self forgive and it nags me. A the law does forgive at times but tell us about those example examples. Particularly since one of the most fundamental commitments and whatever forgiveness is thats not what it is. But actually forgiveness of debts or the pardon power given by the president of the United States we have explicit devices and some are less wellknown the expungement of the records and even the discretion the prosecutor has. So to talk about each one of those ideas with that kind of forgiveness but thats almost a redemptive quality. To be rich and provocative. So think about limits to forgiveness are some things unforgivable crack. Maybe it helps to start identifying it as letting go of justified grievance per quite dont think we are even in the land if we are talking aboutne disputes this is justified. I guess i do think we need to acknowledge law is imperfect and people are not perfect and at times letting go of the blame is better for everybody etand society. Personally is often much better not to carry that grudge around. Not dealing with the motion so much but dealing with mass incarceration that so far in that punitive direction that makes me think about a time for a reset. There are situations where it seems totally appropriate so in 2013 in South Carolina a man was welcomed into our prayer group and now as the whole world knows that was the premises of terror. Sove how do we feel about that cracks in with bad astonishmentnt when family members at the sentencing hearing said they forgave him. Its not what the law or any other person should expect. Therere are particularly worrisome aspects whether racial or gender expectation who should be forgiven in society but those were acting out of a religious belief and it was the right thing to do. In my own analysis it has nothing to do with what the law should do and in this instance wherere dylan had an inexcusable act has never shown contrition to the contrary he has been boastful and proud about what he did because he violated the trust of everyone. So we expect sometimes africanamerican people or women or lgbt to be more forgiving when we are confronted with justifiable grievances. That is completely true. And for the same reasons that they come out of the mouth that they are viewed as angry were disproportionate who has that position of relevant power in society is someone who does r not. We need to be vigilant and concerned and at the same time i add meyer with the 18 yearold brother of the murder victim killed by amber geiger said i forgive you but there should be no lesser sentence than my own view for conduct. So when the judge steps down from her bench and as she was just sentenced to murder in ten years the judge said she hugged her because she asked her to. I was more troubled by that and the judge had a position as an officer of the law that she didnt do anything wrong but still she was wearing her robe and putting her personal feelings that i guess they belong outside the courtroom. So with that paradigm of example. That what im interested in is when law itself the exercise of exacting the sanctions even though its warranted there are good reasons. So you start by thinking about children there are two sets who often oversee or are exploited. Andre those mainly in the United States with those serious offenses. And it has always been striking to me to see how child soldiers are treated in International Law and therel are people who are abducted or coerced with conflict and maybe one many commit terrible acts like rape or murder and then recruit other children so then what to do about those people cracks in the International Context the approach taken by theplpl law ty should be possible punished in the International Criminal court says they have that authority to go after those who were in the conflict but instead internationally to talk about reconciliation and services w and a treat that with the treatment across the country of young people drawn into conflict whether drug or gang related and we have the opposite. We have a punitive way to talk about a group of predators as if there is no acknowledgment of the adult that created the world and what the best option is for the drug trade if they are not offering a real opportunity to talk about the adults that are responsible but despite the origins a place that is supposed to be more forgiving and rehabilitative a place that treats young people just like adults automatically transferring them to adult court or to levyr sanctions for a conduct that no other country in the world does. I think we can learn from that example to come up with an alternative like a commission where the young people have a chance to account for what they did or talk about it or forgive themselves but that also to reinvest to be constructive participants. When you think of the legal response to children. Absolutely. Talking with former child soldiers they are the first ones that blame themselves who know they did something wrong and indeed there are some instances they are not held responsible and they feel adrift so to have the chance to say yes there were no worms and i violated them but what do . s. Talking about child soldiers talking about those that are coerced into going into that kind of terrorism. And other children do it voluntarily. Should the law treat those two sets of children differently . s. The law has tended to treat differently. But that continuum of coercion to voluntary is more salient even with children than adults. When we say somebody volunteered but under what circumstances and what choices . Context matters a lot. In my view its more relevant if they acknowledge they did something wrong and want to make amends. Even to come in the great civil rights criminal justice lawyer and professor who said no one should be judged by the worst moments in their life. Theres more of a wellspring of sympathy if you think of young people and we should tap into that. In criminal law we talk about the term if somebody causes harm there should be consequences and the purpose of that consequence is for everyone else to learn if you make a mistake or commit a crime you will be punished that stops other people from committing those crimes. So the concept of children since they are more vulnerable and exploitable if there are not consequences are you concerned . Im and education generally. But there are pretty good studies that show keeping larger and larger sentences dont actually deter young people from participating. And may be thinking longterm is not the strong suit of adolescence. So the response the law should take two deterrents is what it takes to educate them and who they are. We talk about specific deterrence as well as general deterrence and showing that there is a path forward will not undermine the recognition that violates the norms of society. Understanding about children making mistakes is informed by science including research that childrens brains take a long time to develop and are not fully developed until they are around 25 and male brains take longer than female brains. So at the same time in response to this there are some courts that are dealing with folks who commit crimes so how do you feel about that. Its time that they took w greater note of developments in neuroscience and with that affected the Supreme Court aboutvi life without parole and its also relevant to the increasing numbers of high schools in the united. States through that disciplinary process and through my peers that can arrange through the Restorative Justice to mechanic an occasional experience for everybody those who have injured another to be accountable and also come up with a plan what they will do with their actions to full dad into the educational experience that takes account of the science of those developmental stages young people are at. My mom is a former secondgrade teacher she taught 25 years in Chicago Public schools and she can be hard on kids. Found thats true with a lot of teachers especially elementary and high school as they develop higher expectations. But another is about rules so in criminal law world one idea ist the purpose is to impose a minimum set of standards that everybody has to follow. We dont care who you are. Dont sexually assault. Dont steal. That is part of your responsibility as a citizen. And if you dont, then you should be punished. There should be consequences and every society has come up with rules andd there are consequences known by everyone. They are not always a played one applied fairly. The disregard and distrust is another factor to take a serious account a teacher who talks like your mother is very well regarded by the students because they have High Expectations they are expressing a belief in the capacity of young people to live up to those rules. So what is inconsistent if they dont trust in the system and they cant operate the police dont have the information they need or the help from the community. So this call for forgiveness on my part is a way to trust with one another. You mentioned thenc inconsistency talking about forgiveness of children thats a harder case to make. But if you talk about forgiveness of debt when people think of that. Of course when we talk about that there was a similar moral view about failing to pay a creditor that we are violating a criminal norm like debtors prison absolutely. Thatat was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court and those fines imposed by the legal system i think over time fascinating evolution actually its present in the constitution the congress isng given power and this is in no small way to Thomas Jefferson who was in debt much of his life and he developed political theories one generation should not burden the next with the debt. So the creation of a National Bankruptcy law in many fields have been associated with our tradition of entrepreneurship and Second Chances for people. Business bankruptcy and personal bankruptcy and for individuals to start over. And those consequences and any assets people have and have made available to pay off their debt and also the loss of credit rating. They have to build that up and are charged higher interest for when they borrow. But we do allow people to turn the page and start over ratherr than being so buried by debt they can never get out. So yes i do believe there is a reason the United States has a traditionni of innovation and risktaking that is the envy of many parts of the world the Bankruptcy Law is a part ofy tha that. Bankruptcy and forgiveness of debt is why the United States is a leader. Its an interesting idea. Talk about legislatio legislation, bankruptcy legislation that exists . There is the inconsistency problem. Treating loans different than others and then to underline the problem we have a situation right now with forprofit schools have failed because they have not delivered quality education the schools can declare bankruptcy but the young people who check out the loans cannot and that seems not fair in my mind c. The nature of the exemptions is a political process. And those who were able to get them exempted we could change it. I think we should there have been administrative programs so allow Debt Forgiveness for young people the administration has cut back on those that we should be investing in young people. The students knew what they were citing a force you have to pay i would rather not pay my mortgage. I do believe there are rules for a reason. But oftente times the participation in a problem is more than one person so they alone contributed to the problem and those that said the forprofit schools lead to a job and regulators failed to make sure that they delivered on that promise. Then we talk about people with Student Loans who now cant get a job because the economy is in trouble its not entirely their fault so to recognize we have responsibility is another reason why the law should forgive and find moments when we need to accommodate. Thats a bankruptcy does not everybody is paid 100 percent s everybody get some of the money thats available. It is a concern in the economist come up with a phrase for it is called moral hazard so when you know you are insured youre willing to take more risk how do we make sure they think hard about what they are taking this is a concern but puts all the responsibility to accommodate into the creditors ought to be careful who they long to and t i talk in the chapter about a very serious problem of sovereign debt because maybe they took on too much debt that it would not serve the people the more importantly the creditors were taking advantage of these people so there is a perfect situation if we develop an accommodation. So one thing that creditors say is a Big International money fund or mortgage bank. We take risks and one reason we take risks mortgages may not qualify by the regular criteria but some developing countries because we know theres a guarantee we will get our money back. Then we are not willing to take those risks. It is fascinating to me when nelsonha mandela and then to refuse to pay the International Debt taken on by the government and that they would go ahead because they didnt want to lose their credit standing those are choices for the country and i admire that but i can also see when a country takes on debt they cannot find their way out of it. America is as troubled as it was it does have resources to find a way to pay off the debt. A with any kind of hope. So in your ideal world that a lot of developing countries have now. We dont have an international system. And with those institutions like the imf to play a role. On i think we could come up with an International Agreement for a structure in place and it should set those parameters and to take on debt everyone knows that will not be repaid. And with those negotiations like a rogue financial crisis. I know you teach so enamored by International Trade law and your knowledge of bankruptcy l law. Thank you. I thought to myself in the middle of this book i was still leading at the school. How do i get to the subject of debt . That i remembered my students have debt, after the financial crisis so everybody was dealing with a debt. So that is a skeleton key that we can use the tools to deal with the challenges. Lets talk about another form of forgiveness so lets talk about this moment in american history. So this idea of cancel culture especially on the internet when someone does something the twitter universe determines is wrong then it is canceled. How do we feel about that . I am worried about it. Human beings have the capacity to forgive. Cancel culture is the opposite. It is quex to condemn and condemn forever. With every religion and philosophy. And then to acknowledge those imperfections we all have. One of the challenges living in the internet age is we dont have that threedimensional experience to look somebody in the eye to see the effect of our conduct on the other person. Imagining if i was that person. People says its about righteous anger. So what is the relationship between anger and forgiveness . Can you forgive them and be angry at the same time . I think anger is the wellspring of the sense of injustice and then to say what is angry . There isry a different injustice and each of us should have the dignity of selfrespect for a lifetime of treatment. And it presents us from having relationships with other human beings. And those trying to live a life. That Coretta Scott king was asked how do you forgive people after your husband was assassinated . She said if i dont the anger will kill me. Letting go of anger is a resource. At the same time being forced to forgive is horrible telling that your anger is not justified whenin it is. What bothers me is all or nothing. I that people should have the time. And it implies condemnation forever and ever. And with those metoo problems and those that have been charged with sexual dash sexually assaulting or harassing others. So to forgive about forgiveness to recognize the harm and so we are into that world of acknowledging wrongs we are not in forgiveness. We need anger but we also need forgiveness. For those who are implicated in the Metoo Movement and they suffer the consequences and with that prestigious appointment. So how do we feel about a Supreme Court justice who is the subject of the metoo allegations . Would be welcome . Your school has struggled with that one those around the country i guess i do believe not to talk about any particular case that when people acknowledge they have done wrong or claim that they have not or condemned the wrong that is described maybe thats a chance to bring that into a place of honor. And that could take a long time. It was the power that the president has but you do a much better history so how did this idea the head of state should be able to forgive . How did that start . Thank you for the kind words. I was fascinated to learn the founders of the United States saw the power of Martin Luther king and the power given to the president with no the power to forgive the only exception is the president can only forgive federal crimes and not state crimes and cannot forgive in cases of impeachment which i assume includes impeachment of others. Meaning that he cannot pardon himself. It is not mentioned and the argument goes both ways maybe he could. I think that violates the unwritten norm that nobody could be the judge of their own case. And would be reviewed widely as illegitimate that the framers actually endorsed that view know what should be the judge of their own case. And that could be a check on the judiciary that when the criminal Justice System worked its way through all Things Considered factors that would warrant punishment or condemnation after they show contrition or in one instance the whiskey rebellion would be better forli everybody to let bygones be bygones when president gerald ford offered amnesty to people who resisted the draft during the vietnam er era, and lets say put this chapter behind us. What happens when ford offered a part into nixon. I was old enough i remember i was really mad and i thought it was wrong. Many others thought it was wron wrong. But ford himself thought nixon was giving up the presidency and read and would be punished the rest of his life that way and it would be better to turn the page for the country. At the time it was concerned it was a trade ill step down you can be president if you pardon me. If so that would be troubling. I dont believe that is what happened although who knows. But i do think looking back with decades intervening it was better for thehe country. Why is that . So to have the surreal tv show so what if nixon had not been pardoned . And was charged with the crime just like the cabinet officers were and were made to suffer the w consequences . As is true with alternative history we can speculate to help the country underscore the principles you dont spy on the opposing party or the other conduct the compatriots were charged with but at the same time especially talking about the whole society or large groups it is the cycles of vengeance and to say we have put a period on that. He lost the presidency now we are moving forward for didnt want to spend his whole time fighting over what nixon had done when he had known or had not known so i can see the value the same way after the transition to democracy when the truth Affiliation Commission came up with amnesty to start a new chapter in our country. One thing i found fascinating is how you use the constitution for forgiveness and now its the bargain power of the president how does that work out . Lets talk about president trum trump. I think that is unpardonable the first was a pardon not for ordinary but a violation of civil rights and then to be held in contempt of court so those same acts that were found to violate the law to me it seems that was unjustifiable for many reasons because it looks Like Campaign supporter payback because that was an early supporter of candidate trump and also a slap in the face of the legal system not only the way of violates the civil rights laws but the face of the judiciary to hold someone h in contempt as is not this same the first time he has sneered at judges but the rule of law makes us great and that way to undermine the rule of law is an excusable one of the problems right now is you dont actually come up with a way to talke about who should be excused and when not. So unjust that issue coming up in the context of Supreme Court so what about the president . Ive never thought about that but im very interested to see governor pritzkeral and illinois both of them have exercised to pardon individuals who are not undocumented immigrants the risk of being deported with the sheer fact to be undocumented as a crime and in rithe case of the sister he for gave a man that served in the us military and then charged and convicted and served a sentence and at that point that seem like a good use of the pardon power to me that somebody has paid his dues in multiple ways and now should not face deportation. As a former student of barack obama how did he do . I am very proud of my more recent students who approached me and said can we ask president obama to write for the harvard law review . They said he could have a statement of what he tried to do in criminal justice so he did and wrote an article and published it how to use the pardon power to talk about those discrepancies and when it reduce the sentence with the use of crack cocaine many people were already convicted time. Rving because of the amount of time. And then to be provided for. And then and did not pardon as many people as he wanted. And President Trump has no process at all. And its more careful and thats what president obama did. Some people said its too careful. It probably was some said he started too late he didnt start well s into the second term. I think if i were president i would pardon a lot of people that were part of mass incarceration two. 3 Million People that are in jail so why not just start to make that an object. A do think cell rate at which we incarcerate people with no violent offenses. No other country does that. That would be a place to start as well. But the president can only pardon federal crimes and those are dealing with state crimes. So early in your career it was with thurgood marshall. And one of the reasons i went to law school. Maybe i was inspired i see him as an avenger. Do you have an idea where you would be. You are right about that when it comes to justice and i remember as a law clerk saying here is the complaint because its outside the statute of limitations but it so compelling shouldnt we create the exception to allow this claim to be heard . He said if we change the rules they will not be there for us when we want the rules that afected me so deeply i taught civil procedure for years and years that has inspired me to teach law for almost 40 years. When it comes to the inequities of the legal system for people to turn their life around people can be very forgiving i think hes the only justice in recent memory who served as a defense lawyer and he understood the circumstances of so many people who are caught up in uime in a way i wish more judges did. Talk about the amber geiger case the Police Officer convicted of murder for killing a man inside his own home. Got two years. With a case of parents who cheated getting their kids into the elite schools they have gotten those sentences but those with Racial Justice so some people think those are appropriateem but a black person or latino have the benefit of that kind of mercy but the white people are given the benefits thats great but everybody should get them. So one theory we will not change until white people have to suffer the same as people of color. So in a sense i think its an argument the way the law changes they are concerned about stuff happening too them. There was a lot of power in that approach i do think the inequities justifiably produced this trust should be front and center for any wine improving law. And they also feel strongly the discussion of forgiveness leads to jurisprudence because we asri individuals should be free on however we want to because the legal system will use these tools whether a bankruptcy or a pardon should be in the way to be fair and onevenhanded one of my favorite cartoons from the new yorker shows a judge with a big mustache looking down and says obviously not guilty. We have biases and prejudices and we shed be held to account or do we apply fairly and stanford as the judge did for Sexual Assault because he had a Brilliant Future ahead of him . What about the b others is recognized as having a Brilliant Future ahead of them . Its emotional thinking about the law exercising mercy. So when we think of arguments sometimes it might be hard to forgive so for me it would be tough that you are the recipient of one of the most prestigious awards from Brandeis University you are accepting the award and then you go up and they call you up to the ceremony that would be tough for me to forgive. It was not the most comfortable series in my life. With those moments of divisibility. And then they become the subject of muchci criticism. When students violate school rules they chef consequences. And it was the interruption ofof a ceremony. Is happy to give them their chance. It was not fun. Forgiveness doesnt necessarily have to be easy. Its hard work im not very forgiving. [laughter] but again i do think that sense of being wrong is an important part to serve our own selfrespect but a Bigger Picture of what this is about and how we move forward and however the major civilization with those harms and violations they also include forgiveness. And the code of coming up with those methods of those that are incarcerated. Sometimes i almost detected a spiritual five is that fair . Mimic i think its fair. I am jewish and on yom kippur we apologize to people around us and that has been a big part of my life but in research in this book i was forgiveness and religion and all types of christianity there is a deep commitment to cultivate the human capacity. Think about children who dont know how to apologize. We need to teach people how to apologize and take responsibility. Just as it takes work and learning also to forgive. Is an apology a prerequisite quex. In my book it certainly help helps. You tell Amazing Stories one has to do with an immigrant who wanted to become a citizen in the 1930s and that was part of his naturalization that he committed an unspeakable act. A heinous crime. His name was lewis and he had five children one was born with such a severe disability he couldnt take care of any bodilyr needs. And at some point he took chloroform and put this child to death it is so unspeakable for those working with disabilities. This is absolutely inexcusable he was not charged with i the crime. And he was convicted but we see that the jury had clemency and the judge in turn suspended the sentence. So those are elements built into the legal system and the law and is now says of good moral character the prior five years is required the attorney made a mistake filed for citizenship so this fell within the fiveyear period within two weeks. So that itself is another kind of forgiveness the legal system creates after a certain amount of time we dont look back. So what should happen in that immigration case . With that court of appeals with the Second Circuit to say we dont know what to do what he did was wrong we dont know if we should put it to experts so we will dismiss the case without prejudice allowing him to re file in the future which is another kind of forgiveness. So we are ending that barack obama said you changed his life . This is your 25th book . [laughter] i dont know. What is the impact quex. I really do want to encourage discussion about how this country and people around the world can draw on the very best rather than the worst i have devoted my life to the idea of justice the legal system itselfti makes mistakes and should be able to draw the best of Human Experience which is the capacity tot forgive hope that Reform Movement taps into that sentiment and i hope that we can see in the bankruptcy area teaches us something in criminal law that even those that serve sentences have collateral time not allowed to have a professional license or keep their children or get housing in certain places i think enough is enough to acknowledge forgiveness great apes encourage rituals of forgiveness this is a capacity. You have written a book where you talk about soldiers this program is available as a podcast, all after words programs can be viewed on a website a booktv. Org. Next on but to be after words, republican senator rand paul of kentucky provides a history of socialism, and argues there is a new threat of socialist thinking on the rise in america. He is interviewed by republican congressman of florida. After words is a weekly Interview Program with relevant guest host interviewing top nonfiction authors about their latest work