And he said was that when i was at harvard law school, i had a teacher who change my life. Martha. Martha minow. It is a delight to be here and i learned so much from you through the years so thank you for doing that. I couldnt pass this opportunity up. Love the book because it has your compassionate and brilliant, and is wise and it is grounded and provocative. How did you come to this legendary career but excess to the highest cause of legal power to writing a book about forgiveness. I read a book about 20 years ago about responses to mass violence. And at that time, my Conciliation Commission in south africa had just started. I was so intrigued by the development of new Legal Institution to deal with really horrific violence and oppression. And i read the book and i called it between engines and forgiveness and finding an alternative to two different responses to horrific acts. Enter since time have people suddenly, why between. Why cant it just forget. And it exit me. So that what led me to write this book. The law does forgive at times. See talk about some examples about how rhino, the law can be forgiving. It may seem surprising since particularly one of those fundamental quote commitments place western law that has rol roles, and whatever forgiveness is, thats not what it is. But actually, whether it is bankruptcy rules that allow the forgiveness of debt for the heart and power given to the president of the United States and the governors, we have explicit devices some that are less woa known in the criminal field. You are an expert. Expungement of records and sealing of records but even that discretion the prosecutor has not to go forward is the kind of forgiveness. I was fascinated by all of this. I want to talk about each one of them. And the idea of bankruptcy is the kind of forgiveness. I know we have the word forgiveness. You almost invested the redemptive quality. A transformative holiday. I found it so rich and provocative. I want to start by achy about limits to forgiveness. You see some things they seem unforgivable. Are they. Maybe it helps by start defining forgiveness. I defined it as loving go of justified agreements. So dont say or even in the land of forgiveness if we are talking about charges or disputes where there isnt a justified claim. If we are dealing with justified forgiveness, i guess i do say that we need to acknowledge that law is imperfect and people are imperfect and at times loving go of the innate even a justified claim is better for everybody. It is better for the society and the interpersonal context it is often much better even for the ones who have been harmed, not to carry the grass around. And for the legal system, what we are not dealing with emotions much but we are dealing with who made this now. Mass incarceration. We have swarmed the Justice System. So far, nearly makes me say about the time for a recess. About mass incarceration. But there are situations where vengeance seems only appropriate. In an 2015, mother emanuel, and south carolina, amending dylan was welcomed into a person from. Does the whole world knows, is the white supremacist tears. Her name murdered my people. Some of his family members talked about forgiveness. As we feel about that. I do have kind of in astonishment. I did at the time when family members at the arraignment and at the sentencing hearing said that they forgave dylan. Nothing i can imagine doing and its not that i say that that law or any of the persons should expect anyone, i say are particularly worried aspects where there is a racial or gender expectation about the supposed to be forgiven. But i do say that those individuals were acting out of a religious playpen for them, it was the right thing to do. In my own analysis, their interpersonal forgiveness has nothing to do with what the law should do. In this instance were dylan committed an absolutely inexcusable act in a hateful act and has never shown contrition to the contrary. He has been boastful and proud about what he did. There is no place for forgiveness in the legal system because he is violated the trust of everyone. But there is a sense sometimes that we expect africanamerican people or women or lgbt people to be forgiving when we are confronted with justifiable defenses. It might be different from white folks for heterosexual people or men. I say its completely true. And for the same reason in the same statement coming out of the mouth of somebody would be viewed as angry or just a proportionate when is someone who has occupied a position of power in society than someone who has brought. So i say we need to be vigilant about that and tick concerned about that. And at the same time, i admire when brett john, the 18 yearold brother of the murder victim killed by amber geiger, White Female Police officer in dallas when 18 yearold brother said after the sentencing, i forgive you. That is something to admire that comes out of his religious beliefs but there should be no lesser sentence of man view for the conduct. On the case, when the judge stepped down from her bench and hugged amber whos just been convicted of murder. As sentenced to ten years in prison. The judge said that she hugged amber because she asked her to. I was more troubled by that. And the judge has a position as an officer of the law, she didnt do anything wrong and says that the trial was over and sentencing was over but still she was wearing her robe and whatever her personal feelings were, i guess i say that they belong outside of the courtroom. Still thats in your mind, not a paradigm example of the kind of a forgiveness the law should exercise. No. Again that seems to be about the interpersonal relationships where what i am interested in is what law itself, with the exercise of charges or exacting sanction, when that seems even though it is warranted, it seems like okay, there are good reasons now planning out. And bankruptcy is the really good example. Assume a mistake them in order. See start by looking at the adult children. Two different sets of kids. Children who have been forced to fight in wars often overseas or exploited in other ways. And you also say about children mainly in the United States to get charged and are guilty of serious offenses. How should forgiveness work in that context. One of the methods that we lawyers use as a comparison. Its always been striking to me that because i do work in International Human rights to see out child soldiers are discussed and treated in international law. And there are people who opt affected or coerced but there also people who volunteer to join armed conflict. In many commit terrible acts. Murder and rape the recruit other children. And theres the question, is it the conflict ends, what to do. While in the international context, the approach taken by the law is that those most responsible should be punished. The adult who recruited them should be punished. And the International Criminal courts has no authority to go after people who joined the conference when they were children. And instead, internationally, theres been a trend towards talking about reconciliation and rehabilitation services. I trust that with the treatment of across this country of young people drone into conflict with the brent is directly related or gangrelated and we have the opposite here we have a punitive and a way of talking about predators as if they are in no context. No acknowledgment of the adult who created the world in which air drone into and the best option plans to be the drug trade. The schools are not offering a real opportunity etc. Etc. Citizens talk about the adults are responsible. And says despite the origins of the Juvenile Court is the place that was supposed to be more forgiving and more rehabilitative, we have made it a place that these young people just like adults, either automatically transferring them to adult court or levying kinds of sanctions for conduct that no other country in the world does. So i say we could learn from the example. I say both context, coming up with an alternative like like a Truth Commission where the young people of chance to account for what they did and had met it and to talk about it and to grieve themselves maybe find a path to forgive themselves. I also than to reinvest in them so that they have a chance to join society and being constructive participants. But we do say about the legal response to children should be forgiveness doesnt mean that they shouldnt be held accountable. Absolutely right. Indeed i say we are talking with former child soldiers and gang members. They are the first ones to blame themselves know they did something wrong. And indeed there are some instances where young people are not held responsible and they feel adrift. Set actually have the chance to see, yes they work norms, i violated them an analysis of forward, would we do. How to make amends. We do talk about child soldiers coming mentioned that some children are coerced into going into that kind of terrorism. In other children do it voluntarily. Should the law treat those two sets of children differently. Will certainly that that law should tends to treat very differently. I say that continuing though of coercion to voluntariness is more maybe even with children who are present for all of us. When we see that someone volunteers again on what circumstances and who what choices. So understanding the context matters a lot and in my view, actually is more relevant is whether the people acknowledge they did something wrong and want to make amends. Im very affected by violence. Even the comment the great civil rights lawyer criminal just her lawyer and professor says no one should be judged by the worst mama and their lives. And i say theres more of a sympathy that spirit when we say about young people who have decades ahead of them. We should tap into that. In criminal law, we talk about deterrent. Its the idea that with some causes harm should be consequences. In one of the purposes of this consequences is for everyone else to learn. If you make a mistake, if you commit a crime you will be punished. And the idea is that sops of the people from committing those crimes. So in the context of children since they are more vulnerable and more exploitable, if they are not consequences, are you concerned about the torrance. I am and im concerned about education generally. They are pretty good studies that show that keeping larger and larger sentences, dont actually deter young people for participating in criminal activity. And it may be that actually thinking longterm has brought actually the strong suits that a lot of adolescents. So the response of that the law should take to deterrent is to note that who the people are and what it takes to educate them. And of course we talk about specific deterrence to that individual as well as general deterrence of the other people can learn from it. And again i say showing that there is a path, forward, has brought going to undermine the recognition that it is shameful to have violated the norms. A lot of our understanding about children making a mistake is informed by science. This includes research and you talk about that children brains take those long time to develop. In fact now not wholly developed until it they are around 25. Geiser min, raines male brains take longer than female brains. The 25. S ames, okay you are getting up there and at the same time, in response of this evidence, there are some cords that are thinking about dealing with folks who commit crimes including updates from older folks. And he feel about that. I say it is about time that bob took greater note of the developments in neuroscience. Certainly it was that kind of evidence that affected the Supreme Court in the decision about life that went out parole for juveniles. And i say that it is also relevant to what schools do and can do. So increasing numbers of high schools in the United States had shifted their disciplinary process to one that is participatory with the other peers who actually can arrange for what is called Restorative Justice processes and they can make in an educational experience for everybody. For those who have internet another actually have to be accountable. But also come up with a plan about what theyre going to do and hear with the impact of their actions are on others. And its folded into the educational experience. That takes account of the science of the social science of the developmental stages that the young people are at. My mom is the former secondgrade teacher. She retired from teaching almost 25 years in Chicago Public schools. She can be hard on kids. I find this true of a lot of teachers and especially elementary and high school. And in some ways, i say they develop Higher Expectations of them. But another part is just about rules. So in the criminal law, one idea is that the purpose of criminal law is to impose just a minimum set of standards that everybody has to follow. We dont care who you are. Some minimally. Dont kill. Bill sexually assault, dont steal, and there the ideas that are basic. That is part of your responsibility as a citizen. And if you dont, obey the minimal standards then you should be punished. There are consequences. As should be consequences. In the law i say, every society has come up rules of that nature. And it should be consequences that are known by everyone. And that are applied fairly and evenly. In the not always applied fairly and evenly. I say that the disregard and trust of the legal system is another factor. That is to be taken into serious accounts. A teacher whose stuff like your mother, is usually very well regarded by the students because they have high expectations. And theyre expressing a belief in the capacity of the young people to actually live up to those rules. A legal system that is inconsistent, doesnt earn that kind of trust. And weak we dont have people trust in their Legal Systems it cant operator. The place to get the information that they need. And they dont the help from the community about who actually was to blame. And so in part, this call for forgiveness in the law on my part, so way to see that is one way that we as human beings are entrusted with one another. You mentioned inconsistency in law. Your book suggests that in some ways, we do talk about forgiveness of children who have committed crimes, that is a harder case to make. Seems unfamiliar but as you talk about forgiveness of debt. People, say about that in the law treat that forgiveness differently. We use the word forgiveness, so when we talk about debt. When we go back in history, there was a similar moral view about failing to pay a creditor. We have about violating a criminal norm. And while there is better presence. Absolutely. Ultimately ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court off of we have new forms of better presence now when people cannot pay and finds and posed by the legal system itself. I say over time we have seen the United States, a fascinating evolution when it comes to bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is actually present in the United States constitution. Sue acrylate. The congress is given power to the constitution to have and make her see law and this is in no small way traceable to Thomas Jefferson who was himself in debt much of his life. And he also because he was Thomas Jefferson developed a kind of political theory about it in his view is one generation should not burn in the next with a debt. In the creation of a National Bankruptcy law has in many people feel kind of been associated in the United States with our tradition of entrepreneurship and Second Chances for people to start a business and it doesnt work. Life course have business bankruptcy and we also have personal bankruptcy and there is the same possibility for individuals to start over. And there are consequences. Of course there are four any excess that people have, has to be made available to help pay off the debts. There also is the loss of Credit Ratings that people may take ten years, Companies May take those long time to rebuild the kata rating and it will all be charged by the interest the next and they are borrowing but what we do this we allow people to turn the page and start over. Rather than be so varied by debt that they can never get out of it. And yes, i do say that there is a reason that the United States has a tradition of innovation and risktaking that the entity of many parts of the world. Bankruptcy thought is part of that. Customizing the idea that bankruptcy and for forgiveness of debt is part of why the United States is the leader in technology. Interesting idea, you talk about recent legislation and bankruptcy bankruptcy legislation that exempts. Hears us inconsistency problem. Treating, loads differently than others same to me to undermine basic fairness. In here to put maybe and underline the problem, when we have a situation right now, we have forprofit schools that have sales because they have not delivered a quality education. Schools themselves can declare bankruptcy. But the young people who took up long, they cannot. And that seems really unfair in my mind. The nature of the exemptions is the political process. Those who were able to get the Student Loans exempted, that is relatively recent and american Bankruptcy Law and we can change it and i say we should change it and there have been programs and administrative programs to allow for Debt Forgiveness for young people in the Current Administration is cutting back on this programs. Seems counterproductive. We should be investing in young people. When people see the students knew what they were signing up for, if better pay. Life is tough. I would rather not pay my mortgage but i know ive got to pay it. Led to believe there are rules for a reason. But often times in his work bankruptcy does so woa, that participation in the problem is more than one person. So the people who gave these loans, actually contributed to the problems. And the people you said the myth that these forprofit schools would actually lead to a job, he said the problem and the regulators who failed to make sure that the schools delivered in the promise, they said the problem and then if we talk about people with Student Loans who actually went to good schools that they cant get a job because the economy is in trouble, again its not entirely their fault. So recognizing that they would have can change as circles of responsibility is another reason why we should forgive and find moments when we need to accommodate the interests. Just what bankruptcy does. It has many creditors, not everybodys going to get paid a hundred percent but we can spread what is available so everybody get some of the her name that is available. Are you worried about people exploiting the system. It is a concern and the economists have even come up with a price for it which is more hazard. And really develop the context of insurance that we do know your insured be wheeling to take more risk, how do we make sure the people actually internalize it and say hard about the risk that they are taking. I say that this is concerned. But i also say its wrong to put all of the responsibility on one actor and often accurate with the least ability to accommodate taken it into account all of the considerations. Creditors ought to be thinking hard about who they loan to pride i talk in the chapter about the very problems of developing countries that have summer debt. They may be took on is it too much debt but maybe they had a government system that took on debt that was not going to serve the people whom are partly mated the creditors were taking it advantage of these people who are in such need. While there is perfect situation where we need Something Like bankruptcy to be able to develop an accommodation and we also need the creditor to be more careful. Off of one thing the creditor see and their Big International her name fund or mortgage bank. We take risks. And one reason that we take risk by giving some people mortgages they might not qualify for the regular criteria for some, developing countries loan is because we know that there is a guarantee ever going to get our her name back. If we think about this debt that a lot of the countries have now, what should the legal response be . Guest we dont have an interNational Bankruptcy system. Instead, basically ad hoc bankruptcy is developed with institutions like the International Monetary fund. They could come up with an International Agreement for a structure that is in place for when it is needed rather than trying to scramble each time. But it should set up a kind of parameter that discourages predators as well as the countries from taking on debt everyone knows will not be repaid and at the same time come up with a process for sensible repayment negotiations if there are challenges like a world financial crisis. Host im impressed by your knowledge of Bankruptcy Law and International Trade law. How did you learn all this . Guest i thought to myself in the middle of thinking about this that i was the dean in the middle of the school thought that i get into this subject and then i remembered my students have that, the school has debt. It was after the financial crisis in the country everybody was dealing with debt and if we are lucky it offers us a kind us tell a ten key we can learn to deal with the challenges as they arrive. Host i want to talk about another form of forgiveness that you write about that before we get to that, lets talk about this moment in American History is this idea of cancer culture on the internet someone does some things that the twitter universe judges as wrong and that person gets canceled. How do you feel about that . Guest im worried about it. Human beings have the capacity to forgive and that is how we live with each other. Cancel culture is the opposite of that. Its quick to condemn forever. Its very fascinating to me that every religion and philosophy has developed a respect as a Human Capacity to acknowledge the imperfections that we all have and i think one of the challenges we have is we dont have the threedimensional experience seeing the effect of the conduct imagining what if i where that person coming in i think its a feature of the internet society. Host some people would say that its a righteous anger and if you are wondering what is the relationship between anger and forgiveness, can you forgive someone and be angry at them at the same time or just forgiveness require releasing that anger . Guest i think anger is actually often the wellspring of a sense of injustice. I think its a very important emotion and its a clue when we are angry we should say what is angering me that there often is an injustice and each of us should have the dignity and selfrespect to demand the right kind of treatment but if it swells out of control and prevents us from having relationships with other human beings, that discerns the person who ourselves are trying to actually live a life. Its very striking to me that Coretta Scott king was asked how can you forgive people who after your husband was assassinated and so forth and she said because if i dont, it will kill me. Letting go of anger is a resource that people would often have less power are better at. At the same time, being forced to forgive is terrible and being told your anger isnt justified is wrong when it is justified. There is an all or nothing. I think sometimes it will take people time to forgive and people should have the time. But the culture to imply never in place condemnation, banishment forever and ever. A lot of people are asking me what about me too and me to problems and when do we forget the people whove been charged with sexually harassing or assaulting others. In my own view its way too early as a society to talk about forgiveness on that score. Weve only recently started to recognize the harm so many and that have been accused deny that theyve done anything. Until we acknowledge that we are not in the forgiveness land. We need anger but we also need forgiveness. Host for some of the men whove been implicated in the movement, in some instances theyve suffered consequences and others theyve gone on to procedures of appointment. How should we feel about a Supreme Court justice whos been the subject of these allegatio allegations, whether he or should he be welcomed to be a judge at a competition . Guest your school has struggled with that one. Im sure a lot of schools around the country are look, i guess i do believe that not to talk about any particular case that when people acknowledge they have either done wrong or if they claim they didnt do the wrong that they are charged with they condemn the the wrong thats been described maybe there is a chance to bring them back into a place of honor. That can often take a long time. Host so, pardons. I was going to say it is a power that the president has that comes from the divine right of kings but you do a better history of it in this chapter the book. How does this idea that the leader, the head of state should be able to forgive in a legal way. There are others that study it and know much more than i do but i was fascinated to learn the founders of the United States all the pardon power of kings and trans mutated in many ways to be a power given to the president , one of the few unchecked powers. The only exception one is implicit which is the president can only forgive federal crimes, cannot forget state crimes and one is explicit, the president cannot forgive in cases of impeachment which i assume includes his own as well as the impeachment of others. Does that also mean he cannot pardon himself . Guest it isnt mentioned and the arguments go both ways. Theres one exception and no other maybe he can pardon himself for crimes. I think that violates an unrepentant or no person can be the judge in his own case. They actually endorse that case but it can also be a kind of check on the judiciary that when the criminal justice has left its whole way through there still may be all still considered factors may be after someone has served their sentence or has shown contrition when they did another service to the society or in one instance the whiskey rebellion where it would be better for everybody to say let bygones be bygones. When president gerald ford offered an amnesty to people who resisted the draft during the vietnam era, that was a way to try to save it for the chapter behind us. Host what about when president gerald ford offered a margin to Richard Nixon . Guest i can tell you im old enough to remember i was really mad. I thought it was wrong, and many others at the time thought it was gone, but for himself thought that nixon was giving up the presidency and he would be punished for the rest of his life that way and it would be better to turn the page for the country. At the time, had nixon said before i will step down, you can be president if you pardon me. If so, that would be really troubling. I dont believe that is what happened, although who knows. Its lost in the shrouds of history but i do think looking back now with decades intervening, it was better for the country. Host why is that . One concern is that pardoning Richard Nixon in a sense made him look above the law so if we can do like one of those tv shows where they do the alternative history, what if nixon hadnt been part and and what if he had been charged with a crime just like some of his cabinet officers were and she was made to suffer the consequences . Guest as it is always true with alternative history, we can speculate. It might have been just fine and good and it might have helped the country the principles. You dont spy on the opposing party or the other kinds of conduct he and his compatriots were charged with but especially when you are talking about a whole society or large groups, theres a risk of creating cycles and to say okay this is done, we have put a period on that. He lost the presidency and now we are moving forward. He had things he wanted to do. He didnt want to spend his whole presidency still fighting over what nixon had done and what he had known and hadnt known. I can see a value of type in the same way the transition to democracy, the apartheid government from south africa for truth anafricastruth and reconn commission came up with a kind of amnesty, conditional amnesty but pu to put that behind us and start a new chapter in our country. Host one of the things i found fascinating about the book is the way that you excavate the constitution to find forgiveness so you talked about how it is embedded in the bankruptcy and now in the pardoning power of the president. How has that worked out . Lets talk about president of trump. Guest first was to the sheriff of arizona and it was a pardon not for an ordinary crime, it was for persistent violation of civil rights and then being held in contempt of court for continuing the same acts that were found to violate the law and to pardon him it seemed to me was unjustifiable. For many reasons. One was it looked like payback to a Campaign Supporter because he was an earlier supporter of then candidate trump. Another reason was it basically is a slap in the face to the legal system that says not only is it okay to violate the civil rights la of all but two persistently violate them and it was a slap in the face to the judiciary Holding Someone in contempt, and its not the only time president trum president os actually sneered at judges and said he does not respect them. The rule of law is what makes us great and to use the power to undermine the rule of law i think is inexcusable. One of the problems we have in the country right now is we dont even come up with a way to talk about when a pardon is allowed and when it is not, who should be excused and when not. Host i would love to hear from you on just that issue. Often your name comes up in the context of Supreme Court appointment. Youve had a couple colleagues run for president. You talk about that, but [inaudible] [laughter] guest ive honestly never thought about that, although im very interested to see some new governors, the governor in california, the governor in illinois do something i think i would want to do as well. Both have exercised the governors pardon power to pardon individuals who are not undocumented immigrants now at risk of being deported under the current policy is to treat the sheer fact of being undocumented as a crime. In the case of the governor, he forgave a man that served in the u. S. Military and then he was charged with a drug offense and was convicted and served to send and at that point he was pardoned. That seemed a good use of the pardon power. Someone that had showed he paid his dues in multiple ways and shouldnt now face deportation. Host what about your former student, barack obama. How did he do in terms of pardoning . Guest im very proud of my own more recent students who approached me and said ask president obama to write something for the harvard law review and i said i think shes a little busy and they said he could have a statement about what hes tried to do in criminal justice. So he did, he wrote an article and published it about how to use the pardon power among other tools to try to deal with the description or example than the congress changed and reduced the sentence that use of crack cocaine which had been a disparate sentence in addition to other forms. People have already been convicted and were serving time and he used the pardon power to allow people out who had already served the amount of time the new sentence would have provided for. I think he had the problem of finding the pardon process as he developed it was too slow and she didnt pardon as many people as he wanted. You compare with President Trump doesnt have any process at all. It seems to be whatever reality tv star has talked to him the most recently is going to influence hi them the most. I would rather have a system that is more rulesbased and careful and that is with president obama did. Host some people think it was too careful. Guest it probably was. More significantly, he started late. He served eight years and didnt serve the process until well into the second term. Host i think if i were president , i would pardon a whole lot of people. I mean, if we think about the issue of mass incarceration, 2. 3 Million People in prison and jails. If president why not just start with the, 100dollar would think that our objective. Guest i do think that the way in which we incarcerate people for a long time when they have had no violent offenses, no other country does not. That would be a place to start as well. But again, the president only has the ability to pardon federal crimes, and most people who are suffering from mass incarceration or dealing with state crimes here. So thats why governors matter. Host early in your story career, you clerked for Justice Thurgood marshall. Guest i did. It was a tremendous honor. He was my hero and one of the major reasons i went to law school. Host i dont think that it will come up as a particularly forgiving person, i didnt know him. I became a lawyer partly because i was inspired by his career, but i see him i guess as an avenger, as someone with a sense of righteous anger. Do you have an idea about where he would be on this forgiveness thing . Guest i think you are right about that when it comes to injustice. And i remember as a law clerk going to him and saying this is the complaint because it was outside of the statute of limitations, but it was such a compelling issue, or maybe it was filed too late. Shouldnt we create an exception allowing the claim to be heard coming and he said if we change the rules, they wont be there for us when we want the rules. And that affected me so deeply i talked to be cutoff civil procedure for years and years. Again, a sense of righteous indignation and send to injustice that is what inspired me to go to law school and teach law for almost 40 years. I think that at the same time when it comes to the inequities in the legal system or to recognizing people have turned their life around, he could be very forgiving. I think that he is the only justice in recent memory who served as a defense lawyer in the criminal Justice System and he understood the circumstances of so many people who get caught up in crime in a way i wish more judges did. Host we talked about the amber case, the former Police Officer who was convicted of murder for killing a man in spite of his own home. She got ten years. And a case involving parents who cheated and gamed the system in order to get their kids into elite schools, some of those folks have gotten what appear to be low sentences, four weeks. And i think among some folks that have concerns about racial justice, there is uncertainty about how to respond. Though some people think those are appropriate sentences, but the problem is that a black person or a latino probably wouldnt get the benefit of that kind of mercy. Then the question is should we ate on the fact that white folks are getting the benefits or should we just say thats great, but everybody should get it. So, one theory is that the law isnt going to change until white folks have to suffer the same kind of consequences people of color do. So in a sense i think that is an argument against forgiveness. Its an argument against the way that the law changes is when people of power are concerned about stuff happening to them. Host theres a lot of power in that approach. I do think that the inequities of the legal system that justifiably produced this trust should be front and center for any of us who care about teaching law and improving law. I also feel strongly that the discussion of forgiveness needs a jurisprudence because while we as individuals should be free to decide how to forgive and who and what and how we want, if the system is going to use the tools whether it is bankruptcy or pardon, it should do so in a way that reflects the rule of law and the treating us like the light and being fair and evenhanded. One of my favorite cartoons from the new yorker shows that a judge with a big nose and mustache looking at the defendant has the same nose and mustache and this is obviously not guilty. This is the danger of human beings that we have biases and prejudices. And we should be held to account. Are we acting on those or are we applying fairly, and the sense of letting the swimmer in stamford off lightly as a judge did for Sexual Assault because the judge says he had such a Brilliant Future ahead of him, what about the others with the judge doesnt recognize as having a Brilliant Future, thats bad. Thats wrong. Host succumb its emotional when we think about exercising mercy. You can do it and moving away. Its also emotional when we think of arguments against forgiveness or why in some context it might be hard to forgive. Something happened to you that for me it would be tough to deal with, so you are at the recipient of the prize one of the most prestigious awards in academic could get. Its a ceremony at Brandeis University where you are accepting the award and a Student Activist interrupts the ceremony and they call you out. That would be tough for me to forgive. Guest it was not the most comfortable period or moment of my life. They understood the Student Activists were not really focusing on me. They were using a moment of disability in the same way that is often the case when there are people that are sympathetic to the cause and they become the subject of harsh criticism. I do think that when students violate school rules, they should have consequences. This wasnt a violation of school rules. It was an interruption of a ceremony. I was happy to then listen to them and give them the chance it wasnt fun. It was not fun. Host and forgiveness doesnt necessarily have to be easy or its not easy. Where its not easy. Guest no i think forgiveness takes hard work. Im not very forgiving. I drive in boston. Who can be forgiving. And i do think anger and a sense of being a wrong is an important part of asserting our own selfrespect. But i also think having a Bigger Picture with this for her, who is this about, how do we move forward. Every major civilization has come up with ways to deal with farms and violations that are not just always applying the rule. They also include forgiveness. The agent, jubilee in the bible, coming up with methods to forgive, to let people who are incarcerated b b3 ant of people enslaved the free. Host sometimes when i was reading the book i almost detected a spiritual bias. Is that fair tax guest i think its fair. Im jewish. We just had the most significant holiday in our year, which is yom kippur where we ask atonement, we apologize to people around us for the wrongs that weve done, so its certainly been a big part of my life. But in the research for this book i was fascinated to find the role of forgiveness and really every religion. Buddhism, all kinds of christianity. There is a deep commitment to cultivating what is the Human Capacity to does take work. Think about children who dont know how to apologize. I think we need to teach people how did you apologize and take responsibility . Isnt an apology when you say well, if anyone was hurt. Thats not an apology. It takes work and learning to apologize, i think it takes work and learning to forgive. Host is an apology a prerequisite of forgiveness . Guest in my book it certainly helps enormously, yes. Host so, you tell Amazing Stories and some hard cases in the book. One of the ones that moved me the most has to do with an immigrant who wanted to become a citizen this is in the 1940s and has a part of his naturalization theory, its revealed that he committed an unspeakable act. Guest heinous crime. Host tell us about that case. Guest his name was luis and he had five children, one of whom was born with such severe disabilities that he basically was like an infant. He couldnt feed himself or take care of any of his bodily needs. And at some point, he took chloroform and put this child to death. Its unspeakable. Someone who spent a lot of my life working on the rights of people with disabilities, every life in my view is a life of dignity and this is absolutely inexcusable. He was charged with a crime and he was convicted, but its interesting that in that criminal action we see the immigration activity the jury recommended that most clemency to the judge and the judge in turn suspended the sentence. So those are elements of forgiveness built into the legal system, the jury recommending, the judge responding, and then we have a second process, the immigration process. The wall then as now says that demonstration of good moral character for the prior five years is required. He or his lawyer made a mistake and filed for citizenship such that this act fell within the fiveyear period, two more weeks and it wouldnt have. So that in itself is another kind of forgiveness the legal system creates. This was after a serpentine period, we dont look back. So, what should have been in the immigration case . A fascinating effort by the court of appeals for the Second Circuit was to say well, we dont know what to do and what he did was wrong. Should we put it to moral experts . We dont know. So we are going to dismiss the case without, allowing him to refile in the future. Another kind of forgiveness. Host we are ending here, but i said at the beginning barack obama said he changed his life. This is your 25th of . Guest i dont know. Host wow. What is the impact you with this book has . Guest i really do want to encourage discussions about how this country and the people around the world can draw on the very best of Human Capacity rather than the worst. In the legal system, ive devoted my life to it and the idea of justice, but the legal system itself makes mistakes and should be able to draw on the best of Human Experience and that includes the capacity to forgive. I hope the criminal Justice Reform movement in this country is tapping into that sentiment building coalitions that otherwise dont agree on anything else, and i hope that we can learn to see to start a new page and practice in the bankruptcy area. It could teach something in criminal law where we are so committed even people who served their sentences have political consequences of their crimes. Not allowed to vote in many places. Not allowed to have a professional license, not allowed to keep their children, not allowed to get housing in certain places. I think that enough is enough and we should find ways to acknowledge forgiveness. We are in perfect as human beings, the wall is in perfect. This is a capacity that we have and we should draw on it. Host in the book you talk about soldiers, student debt, issues of the pardon power by some president. A book that manages to be optimistic and inspiring but i think it will have the impact that you hope it will. Great talking to you. Guest great talking to you. Wonderful questions. Wonderful to see you. Host thank you. This program is available as a podcast. All after words programs can be viewed on the website at booktv. Org. Our guest tonight is nicholas. Hes the author of the political thought of Frederick Douglass and editor of the essential douglass and Abraham Lincoln and liberal democracy. His work has appeared in the new york times, salon and many other publications. He is the Elizabeth Morrison glickman Political Science at Lynnfield College in oregon and lives in portland. Tonight hes here to present his book the fires upon us James Baldwin william f. Buckley junior and the debate over race in america. Please join me in welcoming nicholas. [applause]