Your book we are going to cover a lot of ground beef eating inside of communist china is thrived for global supremacy. First of all, why did you decide to write a book . Guest this is my eighth book ended 2000, i wrote a book called the china threat and it was amazing in that it predicted the emergence of a major threat posed by communist china. Ever since i wrote the book i tried to do another book and every publisher that i approached sadly well not write a single topic that you can have chapters. But we wont have a single topic. Host why was that . Guest i really dont know. It was their interest or concern about whether they would sell. Finally i dug into it and i said its time to do another book on the threat from china as it is becoming greater than it was way back when it was published. Host your book is very timely. Let me ask you about this title. Its defeating the sky then you go into the global supremacy. The second half is very clear and understandable. What is this and where does that come from . They are steeped in ancient strategy and many people know of the tamest strategist who comes from the states here 400 to 200 bc. Theres also a book called the 36 strategies whose author isnt quite clear that its a compendium of military strategies that would allow a weaker power to defeat a stronger power which is beijings main goal today. The third strategy is to cross the ocean and its meaning goes back to the legend that is the other of one of the generals wanted the emperor to go to war with other neighboring province and was reluctant so the general arranged for dinner at the home of a wealthy peasants and when the emperor arrived, he stepped into the house until it moved. He realized that it wasnt the house after all. It turned out to have been a boat so the emperor was then sailing on his way and went to the general to this neighboring province and she had to decide to go to war with the province return home and he decided to go to war. The point is that the general even you have to deceive the sky. The chinese legend the sky is the emperor and the emperor is considered a godlike figure so even to deceive god to achieve your objectives. To me this is exactly the strategy of the Chinese Communist party in beijing are using today. Specifically directed at the United States. Host i was very struck by the fact that you dedicated the book to the Chinese People. Before we go into the content and u. S. Policy towards china, tell us why you dedicated the book to the Chinese People. Host guest i think they need to be liberated from this, the horrors of the communist regime. We dont i remember doing a debate in new york city many years ago and it was whether china was a threat and on the side that said china wasnt a threat was a businessman who came up to me afterwards and said ive been doing business in china for 20 years and ive never met a communist. And i was shocked and i said well, you should visit the Peoples Liberation army museum in beijing which ive done in the past, and there you will see all the Founding Fathers of communism and thats even stalin, angles, marks. See, its really i think important to understand this aspect that this regime is going after global supremacy in a way that it had not done in the past. Host if you were in beijing today before the audience and it was mentioned that you dedicated a book to them, what would you say to them exactly . There is a big mess in china that the Chinese Party is one with the people. Remember a chinese kernel came to visit the the Washington Times many years ago and said my beef isnt with the Chinese People it is with the communist party of china and he said no there is no difference between the communist party of china and the people. That is a huge lie. 1. 4 billion people are enslaved under this system. There are as many as 93 million communist partys. For the most part, the people of china do not want that system. They taste a little bit of prosperity mainly in the mainland cities. They tasted a little bit of freedom and many of them traveled to the United States and so i really felt i wanted to dedicated to freeindedicate thee Chinese People from the communist party of china. At the beginning of the book, you go into how we got it wrong. In particular, you site back in 1999 dot the Defense IntelligenceAgency Issued a report, and basically that report minimized that china was a threat. But then you juxtapose that with some 20 years later you basically indicate that the Army Lieutenant general Robert Ashley had in fact indicated that communist ideology has not changed at all as a motivating force for chinas ruler, and basically the report that was issued then really documented how and why china is a threat. In fact, one data point that really struck me was the 600 billion annually in stolen technologies and intellectual properties. Rather substantial. So, how did we get it wrong . What was happening in 1999 and then why 20 years later it changed . Guest sure. I like to tell the story that goes back to the late 90s i was writing a story and at that time the pentagon was more press friendly and they would give background briefings so i went and they gave me a background briefing which was fairly vanilla in terms of what they have to say. But at the end of the briefing a colonel came in and said the general would like to see you. The general was the director and he sat at the end of the table and told me that china was not a threat. And i was very surprised. I would expect that kind of my question to him was what you think that and he said basically because of their statement. And this was astounding to me. I could understand that for policy officials who want to spend a reporter or even civilian intelligence people, but for the top of the three Intelligence Officer to say that this Nuclear Armed communist dictatorship which has missiles capable of hitting the cities is not a threat, i really felt deeply that there was a deception operation underway. Fast forward a couple of years later and we were revealed in beit revealed in one of my earlier books that one of the top analysts at the dia turned out to be a chinese spy passing information. So i believe that it was chinas penetration of them at the time who was giving this false information. General ashley, the current director has obviously taken a major shift and that is a reflection of overall Trump Administration policies. It made a tectonic shift in policy towards china and identifying it as a strategic competitor and that is still going through the government bureaucracy right now. Host lets me pick up on that with the advent of the Trump Administration. In fact, back in december of 2017, 2017 it was when the National Security strategy was released it does state both russia and china are competitors but you also define china not only as a strategic competitor but also a threat, and you document that in the buck. The elaborate a little bit more on that. Sure. The first step in finding solutions, whether its for policies or anything else is to identify the threat. Without understanding that, we will never be able to solve the problem of china. So, i looked at this and said what is it that makes up the threat from china, and i spent a lot of time looking at the chinese ideology. I loo look at their weapon syst, their intelligence operations, their influence obligations under the financial warfare, and its quite an impressive array of threats. In my view, it is an existential threat unlike those faced by the United States in any time in its history. That there was another dimension and that is in the Trump Administration, the link has been made between american National Security and the issue of Economic Security, and that is a centerpiece that has been developed. To some extent you could argue some of that has been there but in terms of the approach, its very hard hitting and its really having a significant impact. Particularly at a time when china itself has been confronted with its own economic woes. So, wouldnt you add that its not only in the military component, not only digital cover influence, but also the economic dimension that is absolutely essential here . Guest entirely. I have a chapter on chinese economic warfare, but before i get into that, i wanted to point out about this idea of the multifaceted threat from china. The reason that it has become worse is that we, the United States has been engaged in what i described as a 30 to 40 year gamble, strategic gamble and that is it began under Henry Kissinger when weve realigned with beijing against moscow during the cold war and it was designed to basically help defeat the soviet union. In the u. S. At the time bail out the struggling communist party of china. After the fall of the berlin wall and the collapse of the soviet union in december of 91, there was never a reevaluation, so the engagement policy with china went on kind of autopilot, and it was never reevaluated and it became this great legacy policy that we have to continue. And that really has been enormously damaging. For example, what we get one i think which is the most concrete example. Engagement. Through several administrations both republican and pathetic that during the administration of bill clinton is kind of reached the high point, and at that point, bill clinton allowed our National Weapons laboratories, the Nuclear Laboratories to have exchanges with china. Within a few short years of those exchanges, the cia issued a conclusion that through espionage, china had to maintain secrets on every deployed warhead in the u. S. Arsenal. That loss of secrets which has never been fully resolved by our investigative agencies that its clear that happened was compounded when the chinese spread Warhead Technology to pakistan. Then through the Nuclear Supplier network they proliferated that Nuclear Technology to north korea, iran, syria and libya and we found this out in 2003 when we took them libyan Nuclear Program and among the documents turned over to the investigators were chinese language documents on how to design a small warhead missile. I cant think of a greater damage to our security and Global Security than this unfettered engagement that didnt understand the nature of the threat from china. Host a rather substantial point that you are making con dive into the economic window as i was asking. Just develop that developed th, because that particular piece, i mean, you made it very clear the kind of threat that is posed getting the kind of espionage activities taking place, but also how is the economic instrument being wielded in advancing their own agenda . Guest if he arrives from the fact that they are trying to use their economic power to dismiss the United States and they are doing this through several ways. Let me first touch on the trump shift in policy. What President Trump has done more than any other president has outlined the u. S. National security with Economic Security and that has filtered throughout the entire government whether it is more enforcement, intelligence, pentagon today everyone is looking at the chinese economic threat. And as you mentioned, the white house was very successful in highlighting this threat. Threat. They issued a report with a stunning title called chinas economic aggression, and there was a huge policy fight with the bureaucrats saying we cant say economic aggression. But when you read the report, you understand why and that is where they determined based on the estimates that between 250 billion to 600 billion annually in American Intellectual property and technology has been stolen by china, no nation can survive especially a nation that is so heavily reliant on its technology and innovation with that kind of theft. So, getting back to the soviet cold war analogy, as you well remember back in the Reagan Administration, the Reagan Administration did something unique towards the soviet union. They basically said we are going to block western technology to moscow, and was a major contracting doctor in the demise of the soviet union. Trump is basically doing a similar thing towards china. Hes going and saying okay, lets see how great the chinese economic miracle is as American Technology is blocked off and so there has been an unprecedented level of policies designed to prevent this flow of technology. And in fact, i point out in the book that this policy got its launch in very early 2017 during the trump tower meeting with the president , newly elected president where he met with the top executives from silicon valley, and they are all to a person their main concern was how do we stop the flow of the american knowhow to china and so that is kind of where its begun. Do you feel chinas predatory economic policies will be thwarted as a result of this particular policy approach . Do you see it having the kind of impact that it should . Guest im seeing it very much so. If the financial warfare chapter i point out in addition to the terrorists that have been posed by the Trump Administration, which are having an impact, china has different attacks and they are going after different american markets. Through those investments to raise money as well as to influence policy. Take for example the investments by the california personnel were Retirement Fund in chinese companies. Those funds could then say dont sanction china because our Retirement Funds are invested and this is happening on a large scale. Im happy to say the administration with in the past week have announced that they are going to take steps to try to curb this very unregulated Capital Markets which in the United States is an unprecedented leader in all Capital Markets. Markets. And the administration has been quite vigilant on this issue and the negotiators are also have those goals and objectives in correcting these predatory actions as a part of the negotiations. I mean, robert, dave mentioned are at the forefront of it. Who is she . The chinese leader . What are the goals and objectives . Guest up until the regions of power that took place in 2012 and 2013, the chinese strategy for the world again they watched closelclosely and saw the collaf the soviet union and so their idea was lets be friends with the United States, so the main deception was they were not communists were a threat. The director told me as far back as 99 they are not a threat. And the reason for that is the policy was by our time and build our capabilities. That has changed dramatically. Hes announced his goal is the chinese dream and the chinese dream in my view is the communist party of china nightmare and this is where china is seeking to take its rightful place as the sole superpower in the world, so its not just that they are spreading their own power and communist system and predatory lending practices through the belt Road Initiative, but it also means that in order for them to achieve that, they have to go after the United States. States. They have to weaken their main enemy, the United States and there we see the unfettered policy of china to send the opioid fentanyl into the United States to exacerbate the tens of thousands of deaths related to the crisis. Host isnt it true that he has striving and has strived rather successfully in solidifying his own power base . Used a mac through the vote if you will which basically says he is the leader for life. He also has been that even in articulating the power of the communist party. He talks about the revitalization of the communist party. Do you see him in any capacity as being vulnerable plaques guest he has consolidated power since 2012 through a massive purge that has been carried out under the auspices of anticorruption. But in fact, it is a cover for the power consolidation. And hes instituted an unprecedented purge not just a midlevel officials or lowlevel officials, but some of the most senior officials of the communist party. Anyone perceived as a rival and in the pla. Anyone perceived as a potential rival is being eliminated. This has created great instability within china because the way chinas party, communist party is structured is very much like a group of mafia families where each has an outreach and network and so by purging some of these families, is creating some type of internal opposition to him. That said, he has strengthened the internal Security Apparatus in china which is mainly the ministry of Public Security. There are numerous Chinese Security organizations, security and intelligence organizations. All of them modeled after the soviet kgb which is again a Political Police and Intelligence Service that serves a dual function as both intelligence as well as internal security. One of your chapters is entitled the coming space war with china and in fact in that chapter, you even discuss the prospects for the war itself. And you speculate that china this cannot be ruled out. Please talk about that and then lets also discuss graham allisons prognostication that the path we are on the war is likely. Guest the military threat from china is based on what the chinese call asymmetrical warfare or assassins weapons. That is again going back to the warning states. A weaker power does not try to confront the enemy head on but tries to find its vulnerabilities and develop special capabilities. Space warfare is one of those. Cyber is another bit of space warfare is a real, real vulnerability for the United States because the United States is so dependent on the multitude of satellites for communicatio communications, finance for intelligence, for military, for navigation. And china has understood that and theyve developed an array of weapons. This is a nonfiction book, but i included a fictional scenario for how china could launch a worldwide kind of pearl harbor, missile attack pearl harbor and in the first phase of that would be knocking out key Missile Warning satellite because the u. S. Operates. We have good eyes in the sky that can pick up heat signatures anywhere other than through attacking and destroying as many as two dozen satellites on the u. S. Military could be crippled in its ability to function. And again, we are the sole superpower right now that china is working to diminish the capability. Host without graham allisons own thesis . What are your views on that . Guest i didnt mention it in the book because i dont think it is a valid assessment. I dont think that the war with china is inevitable. This notion that in the past going back to ancient times that a declining and rising power will automatically go to war. First of all, this has been a Major Chinese propaganda theme that china is the rising power in the world and its working to revise its power, but its the United States must diminish. What we dont hear much about is how china is trying to diminish the United States. But i see the United States has definitelasdefinitely is going e sole superpower and i agree with President Trumps strategy of peace through strength which again goes back to the Reagan Administration where they basically said what if you want to prevent the war, make sure that the other side doesnt miscalculate stumbling into a war and i think that is kind of why i disagreed with the strategy. Host you also have a number of very interesting quotes. Each chapter has a quote. For example, on the assassins space, you have a chinese kernel saying, quote, to meet the requirements of deceiving the United States in a war, the pla should have assassins weapons with space attack capabilities. Guest china has that capability today. Host thats what you have as you said a fictional kind of scenario. Talk about the fact it does have that capability today. Guest this is one of the areas china is ahead of the United States. The United States military recently set up a brandnew space command. Guess what, they have no weapons. At least none that we know of. China on the other hand has an array of very lethal and capable antisatellite weapons and we learned this back in 2007 when china tested a ground launch missile called the direct instant missile which targeted a weather satellite, chinese weather satellite, and the impact from that satellite, and i spent an entire chapter explaining how the chinese light about that, that very characteristic of the approach. This satellite created tens of thousands of pieces of floating debris which are going to threaten both manned and unmanned spacecraft for probably 50 to 100 years. China learned from that lesson and they took a little bit of heat from the international community. The second thing that they developed our groundbased lasers. The best way to attac protect an orbiting satellite according to the experts i talked to is to use a groundbased laser, high powered laser. All you have to do to disable or destroy an orbiting satellite is to warm up the electronics or damage the sensors or the optical cameras on those things and they are out of business without the same degree field. In addition to both missiles and glazers, theyve developed co orbital satellites and i highlighhighlight and about howy tested a group of small satellites. One of which have a robotic arm that could reach out and ground or crush a satellite or knock it out of orbit. This is an impressive array of weaponry. Again theyve been developing it from before 2007 and the u. S. Is now trying to catch up. Your book documents many areas like that. In fact in the digital area and Cyber Attacks comin come you ben with a quote in this case from the 1940s, and i want to read that. To achieve victory, we must as far as possible make the enemy blind and deaf by sealing his eyes and ears and drive his commanders to distraction by creating confusion in their mind. So, relief that statement to cyber and chinese cyber goals. Guest the chinese Cyber Threats like the space threat is another one of those asymmetrical capabilities where they are on par or ahead of the united they stand they have done a massive job of developing the ability to get inside of networks and control networks. Everything from our military networks that tell what kind of logistics we are going to need if we are going to move troops and equipment into a battlefront two Financial Networks and most alarmingly, the chinese cyber threat has been detected inside of our electrical grid. Again, basil devito caught as a cyber reconnaissance in other words they are mapping the networks. The United States was roughly 30 electric power grids. The chinese have been detected in all three and the belief is among the military is that a crisis or conflict, they could basically turn off the lights. Now, we have 16 Critical Infrastructures in addition to our electric grid or Financial Communications transportation. But when you really come down to the most Critical Infrastructure is our electric grid and if that goes down, we are in deep trouble. On a scale of one to ten, and ten being the most concerning, where are we on that scale in terms of a continued future chinese Cyber Attacks . Guest the chinese cyber for today is between seven and eight and growing. Weve witnessed it in many ways, and its going to get worse when the chinese have stolen massive amounts of data. In the book i highlight the case of a hacker who operated a network of vancouver that successfully broke into bowing and stow a 3. 4 billion worth of research on the c17 transport. This is the militarys frontline transporter. Ive traveled on many of them. They not only good for as little as 300,000 a, but they were able to steal this technology. Not only did they steal it, but they sent it back to beijing where they turned it into the white 20 pitches their brandnew transport. This is only one example, and i did a deep dive on this case because i said it is characteristic of the kind of things that they do, but there are many, many massive Cyber Breaches the most significant of which was the office of Personnel Management where 22 million records of federal workers, but not just any federal workers, federal workers who are engaged in classified work. This is an amazing breach. The government notified everyone in the government, millions of people who hold security clearances for their information was compromised. How could china use this information . They could couple that with Artificial Intelligence which is another area that they are working on and they could use it to identify key people. For example, they are very interested in counterintelligence so they would use it to find out chinese language speakers who would be part of the intelligence community. They could target those people for recruitment or other dirty tricks and things like that. On the cyber front, they could use it to identify Network Administrators and key National Security agencies, target those people, learn their credentials and break into those networks. Host you have so many areas that you cover in terms of their engagement and where they deploy different kinds of technologies, economic instruments etc. Throughout the book. I wont be able to cover all the time that we have allotted, but let me focus on a few more. You have a chapter entitled hightech, totalitarianism. Interesting title. You mentioned that by 2018, china put in place a new technological control system based in part you said here on an estimated 200 million surveillance cameras around the country and they are seemingly everywhere. Street poles, lamps, ceilings, Traffic Signals etc. Talk about this hightech totalitarianism. Again this is following on my imported notes that this is the reflection of Chinese Communist ideology, total control and the elimination of any person or institution that is perceived as a threat to the parties power. It has become what they call a social Credit System whereby just as you have a credit ranking on your credit card or finances, they have a credit card for your politics. A friend of mine told me that in beijing where people normally cross the street a person refused to cross the street when there wasnt a proper crossing signal because automatically he would be identified and his social credit would be diminished. There are also stories of people who have done things that are perceived as they have a regime or anticommunist party. They are limited from traveling. They can take trains or aircraft. And people in china are actually even going to the remote parts of the country and trying to buy credit from people there that dont have this problem. China has also, a lot of the technology, a lot of the surveillance cameras it was stolen from the United States. They even developed in addition to facial recognition, they have something that can actually measure the gate that you wont so if they cannot see a persons face, they can use the massive databases and highspeed computing to be able to identify individuals. Host what about chinese soft power. Im going to use this term versus smart power. How would you assess that . We know they are heavily involved in economic developme development, latin america, the middle east, africa. You see it as very effective. If so, why is it effective in your opinion . Guest they have expanded in a number of areas. I would say soft power is one. Influence operations are another. Theyve expanded to something called the United Front Work Department which is a party unit which is a close eye Intelligence Unit that is responsible for advancing the strategic interest around the world. I think one of the key features of the chinese expansionism today is something i mentioned earlier clip adult and Road Initiative, and this is again is morphed out of the ideology called the china dream and so now the belt and Road Initiative is a kind of trojan horse of chinese expansionism, and its targeted on the developing world and the way that it works is that china goes into a poor country, says we would like to build a railroad for you and we will even help you with financing and then they provide the financing and then they do it at exorbitant Interest Rates have been when the poor country comes back and says we are having a trouble paying back the loan, they say wow, that is our railroad now, they are taking over and that kind of thing is taking place on a large scale around the world, especially in the developing world. My own view is, and i see this as a kind of u. S. Encirclement strategy to basically take over and buy up these developing world as a way to en to encirclf more developed world and that way insert power in the developed world. Host that their intelligence and espionage . You have a case here concerning key west. Share with us what exactly happened in key west. Guest most people familiar with chinese intelligence operations know about the two main spy organizations when is the ministry of state security. It is a massive intelligence and Political Police service. The second is the Second Department of the pla. That has recently been folded into a new military unit, but those ar are the two that the fi has been chasing for years. Last year, something new and urged. A young man booked himself into a hotel room in key west and left his wallet and things behind him have to cameras on hn him and then went to the Naval Air Station key west and walked around a security fence that had stretched in the water and began photographing the antenna rate and a contractor but they spotted him and they went and immediately arrested him. The fbi came and it turns out that this was a new type of chinese spying from the ministry of Public Security which i mentioned earlier is kind of the uber Security Service and in china today actually eclipsing the two pla. He was convicted and sentenced to prison and the officials involved in the case said it wasnt unusual for the ministry of Public Security had dispatched a spy to spy on the facility which again is they keep this up before counter drug operations. It is a major intelligence center. Who knows what exactly he was after again its in the counterintelligence business you can tell what the motivation of they are by the targets they were going after. Host you also talk about influence making and in this regard, one of the things that also takes place you have a influx of Chinese Students in the United States. You also have a number of academic institutions that have these contentious institutes and there has been a flurry of attacks on those institutions that are taking resources from the confucius institutes. Let me give an example in the state of florida i know there are a good number and a senator marco rubio has come out very vociferously against these institutions existing. Talkative also and describe whats going on here because in your book, you do leave together specific capabilities, specific capacities, technological capacities, but you also talk about ideology and the importance of ideology. Again, it is another trojan horse method and its been a very effective communist Chinese Party influenced wolf especially on the american campuses. There are about 100 of these institutes are funded by the Chinese Government into their objective is to ostensibly to teach chinese culture. Interestingly, they officially Atheist Party of china is using confucius as a tool, as an influence tool and what has happened with these institutes is that they come at these universities which again are dependent on foreign students have become dependent on these confucius institutes and therefore they are moderating their policies. You cant find on many campuses courses that teach about the evils of the communist party of china, this party that has been the blamed for the deaths of up to 60 million chinese since the founding of communist china. As a come as you mentioned marco rubio has been one of the more outspoken members of congress in and trying to get universities to kick these institutes off. Again the universities are reluctant to do it because theyve reliant on it so again you have this finance and influence power working together and of course on the student and researcher front there are at least 300,000 Chinese Students now not all of them are spies but all of them can be called upon by Chinese Security agencies to conduct work for them. In fact just recently there was an arrest of the Chinese National in the United States who was involved in what was known as the Thousand Islands program and this is a this is one of the Chinese Governments biggest programs to get officials who have expertise to go from the United States to china and there was mention for the first time in the indictment in this case that this chinese official was working with one of the confucius institutes on a university in massachusetts which wasnt identified by name but most likely was mit or Massachusetts Institute of technology. Host interesting. Military might. Weve touched upon a number of areas, but lets go to military might. Clearly the chinese are investing in their navy and also many countries in the region have been very concerned about what theyve been witnessing in terms of the island of the South China Sea islands disputes. But also about the investment, the significant investment in the military. Where is it now and how would you describe it . I touched on this a little bit earlier that Chinese Military threat comes in two forms of the conventiona conventional Unconventional Warfare and the nuclear. Host and you did mention the nuclear. Guest theyve developed a new array of systems. I remember way back many years ago that the chinese through a spy case in california stole details on the system that is a huge radar that is the heart of the modern navy and baseball bat and combined it with chinese and Russian Technology and now they are cranking out hundreds of warships in terms of submarines again they are behind the United States in terms of the sub or a more fair how quiet your submarine is is the most important thing. But they are getting quieter. They are able to engage in soviet union to find out about the Nuclear Arsenal and that was a stability. The chinese have refused to engage in armscontrol with the notion engage in and they believe any discussion will undermine his deterrent value. So they dont know whether they have 600 warheads or whether they have 1500 warheads or whether they have 10000 warheads. They have something called the great underground wall. This is 3000 miles of tunnels that are used with storage and production of nuclear weapons. The Nuclear Threat from china is compounded by an advanced muscle system. It is called a Hypersonic Missile that traveled at mach seven or mach five at above which is 7000 Miles Per Hour and can literally outrun our Missile Defense and that the purpose of harboring it. And has a capability in a physics environment to maneuver its target. Chinese have developed this as a conventional warhead for perhaps antiwar. A major topic of concern in our Foreign Policy with the secretary is mike pompeo has raised this issue in many over alleys and some have taken measures against the technology and others who have not listened and going down that path. Explain the concern of 5g. Bristol into 5g, 5g is not simply an advance from 4g to 5g and telecommunication technology. Its a revolutionary step above what were currently doing without the handheld devices. It requires an infrastructure in the chinese are seeking to corner the International Market on 5g technology and they are making great strides. There are a few chinese telecommunication giants and many have by the United States and while w enter huawei is the most concerning and is a state run company. Its leader was a former pla Electronic Warfare expert and right now there is a huge battle, the Trump Administration has indicted the cfo, she is being held in house arrest outside vancouver counted a andd theres a case against her that huawei has illegally began to conduct business and iran. So for u. S. Efforts around the world have not succeeded in getting as many alleys that should be about this technology in one way the United States has been influencing others not to use Huawei Technology which can be used for intelligence gathering, thats really the key concern. They said the United States will not Share Technology or intelligence with key partners and allies that have Huawei Technology. Huawei routers and things. The reason, there is a belief in fact its more than a belief, we learned that the National Security agency was able to penetrate huawei equipment and actually spy on spies that the chinese are spying on. So we know in addition to that they have an intelligence law which requires Allstate Companies in china or private companies to provide data for chinese intelligence and Security Services. I want to go down to paths in the time that we have remaining. One of which, foreign affairs, a number of years back did a pull, conducted a poll, in the pool, the question was, russia was a geopolitical challenger or threat. It was interesting because half of the Foreign Policy expert basically in various degrees said yes. But the other half focused on china. And very specifically said no. That is not russia china. Lets take a look at both. You have covered in written about both, where on the skilled you fit and where is china and where is russia in terms of geopolitical threats in the and her allies. And turns of magnitude china is by far the greater threat. I think this was a little confusing in the trump or ministration National Security strategy, the National Defense strategy where the couple both china and russia together and again, this is been a bureaucratic ploy for many years to diminish the chinese threat by elevating the russia threat. The Foreign Policy community in the Academic Community is on autopilot when it comes to russia. That is based on the cold war. During the cold war we fielded numerous experts on the soviet threat and they continued. There is kind of a russia threat culture in this community and that is rapidly changing. Again there was much fewer china experts in the language is more difficult and the culture was more difficult and thats changing rapidly. As recently as stanford where i heard an academic there who is not necessarily concerned about the china threat and he breathed a bunch of reporters and said im really afraid of what is happening as we see the emerging threat from china. The other thing to look at, the chinese economy is seven times larger than the russia economy. The problem with russia, they are developing a series of Vladimir Putins doomsday weapons, Hypersonic Missiles, and Nuclear Power cruise missile, massive large icbm, threatening weapon. The russia threat however, i believe is limited to Vladimir Putin and its regime and one of the recommendations i make is that the United States should play the russia card against china. We need russia as an ally, that will not happen as long as gautama putin is in power and russians have said putin can be bought out and you can give him back his ability to be taken back from russia. You put forth a number of recommendations at the end of the book. What are some of your recommendations and how we can really tackle this challenge . I think the key recommendation that i make is for the u. S. Government in the United States as a whole to recognize the true nature of the china threat as i call it. And really declare china much more than a strategic competitor but an adversary or enemy. The National Security strategy and National Defense strategy took important steps and identifying china as a strategic competitor. That is a halfway measure basically to the pro engagement and probusiness community who said lets keep trading with china and keep doing business with them as a way. In the other problem, after 40 years of engagement, our economy is so intertwined with china that is beginning to change. A lot of businesses are pulling out and looking for other markets, india, vietnam, places like that. I think its time to declare china if we do that and say china is the adversary, that will go a long way towards helping us couple. Another recommendation is to create a parliament in exile. Lets organize prodemocracy chinese around the world, bring them together once a year and create ideas and policies for reforming the system into a democratic system. And then publish that and distribute it electronically and china. These are very simple things that can be done. The other thing i talk about is expanding Missile Defense. We saw in south korea when the United States deployed the High Altitude defense, and effective antimissile system, the chinese punished south korea for three to 4 billion by causing problems with them. This is a sign that china does not like the Missile Defense because the military is so muscle oriented they have so many different types of missiles. Thats deploy the missile battery throughout the world. In mongolia, and india, and southeast asia, and australia, all these places and lets encircle china and mitigate the China Missile threat. Where does india fit into the strategy given indias own objectives in the region and also going back to the issue of russia, just a little bit more about where russia might fit in. I asked that question because are you concerned a bottle closer, chinese Russia Alliance that is emerging, some experts think that is happening and others experts counter that and say that is not happening and will not happen. First on india, the india relationship with the United States is growing, india is kind of like the United States and that they have had a decadelong debate about china with pro china and antichina communist party concerns. So they are beginning to wake up to the china threat and they have a border dispute with china and theyre very concerned and when i talked to Indian Officials here, it is the main National Security threat for china for india. As for russia and China Growing closer together, we have seen in the past couple of years, in the past few weeks, joint military exercises and this is kind of unusual, russia has lar large se exercises and china has some forces. I think the russians are cautious about the relationship of china and traditionally russia has feared china taking over its far east which is very vulnerable. Low population and few defenses. So the husband putin has aligned with beijing basically because his against the United States so to answer u. S. Motivation. But there is a concern to see the growing alliance between russia and china. But is mainly focused as antiu. S. Alliance. If you had to pick up on mobility of china, what do you think china is most probable on. I think their most vulnerable on the regime limi legitimacy. They will be 70 years of communist rule and its not the cause for celebration. When you look back at the massive deaths that have been caused, a book published many years called the black book of communism which estimated the deaths from communism to be 60 million people, this is the legacy of the communist party of china and it needs to be held accountable for that. By exposing that in the true nature of a communist regime that it would go a long way towards bringing about a Democratic Change in china. Bill, let me ask you, inputting your work and policymakers, what do you want them to know about this book. What is the most essential top three points and message that you want to leave with them . This is the most important book that anyone can read about the china threat. There are basically three things but the main one is china is a Nuclear Armed communist dictatorship that is growing stronger and more threatening. And second, we have really missed china, our intelligence has missed it, the policy community has missed it, and we really need to admit that. I think were starting to see a much greater debate and policy circles about that. This is the key, thirdly, weve got to bring about a peaceful Democratic Change within china. That is ultimately the way to mitigate the threat from china to bring about the end of the communist party of china and of course shes in pings Main Objective is to keep the commonest party in power and ultimately to become a global hegemon for supremacy and dominance over the entire world. Thank you so much for coming today, much appreciated and let me just start from where we began, deceiving the sky, inside chinas communist supremacy is certainly a fascinating book and youve done a really a lot of work in research into this. Thank you again for coming today it is an interesting read. Thank you. This program is available as a podcast, all after words programs can be viewed on a website at booktv. Org. The house will be in order. For 40 years cspan has been providing america unfiltered coverage of congress. The white house, the Supreme Court and publicpolicy events from washington, d. C. And around the country