Transcripts For CSPAN2 Melissa Rogers Faith In American Public Life 20240713

We are a small academic Publishing House attached to the largest Baptist University in the world in waco texas. We are very focused, almost all of the 40 books we published each year are focused on academic conversations surrounding religion. Melissas book is a natural fit for our listand we are proud to be the publisher of it. I suspect that for many of you linda rogers needs no introduction at all. She served as special assistant to president barack obama and executive director of the White House Office of faithbased and neighborhood partnerships. She holds a law degree from the university of pennsylvania and she serves as visiting professor at Wake Forest University school of divinity and a nonresident senior fellow at the brookings institution. She has received an honorary doctorate from Wake Forest University and the johnleland center for theological studies. 11 years ago Melissa Rogers coauthored her first book at Baylor University press, an ambitious volume called religious freedom and the Supreme Court which was designed to help parse the Supreme Courts rulings on the issue. Now with the publication of faith in American Public life melissa is providing scholars, government officials and religious leaders as well as general readers with the most uptodate and readable volume weve ever had on the topic of religionsrole in the Public Square. Melissas book is not only a meticulously researched presentation of a church state law, its a call for interreligious peace and for seeking Common Ground across our different faiths and beliefs. It is an honor to be joined by such a distinguished group ofspeakers. Todays conversation will be moderated by Mike Mccreary who served as White House Press secretary under president bill clinton and i believe is the only white house, former White House Presssecretary who has gone on to teach at a seminary. Called by the way the doctrine of atonement. [laughter] mike currently serves as a distinguished professor of public theology at wesley Theological Seminary, and we simply could not ask for a better moderator and we are so glad he could join us today. Mike will introduce the rest of our speakers. Thanks for joiningus for these conversations, let me turn things over to mike. Melissa, lets get the conversationstarted. Its hard to write a book, thats the reason ive never done it. So what made you want to write this book . Why did you after all your experiences did you decide this wassomething that you wanted to do . Really three reasons. One is theres a lot of misunderstanding about religion in American Public life and you hear people say sometimes well, the Supreme Court has kicked religion out of the Public Square or president s cant talk about their personal faith or schools, Public Schoolshave to be religion free zones and none of those things are true. So one of my motivations was to try to clear up the areaor make a contribution to greater clarity in this area. The second reason i wrote the book is a profound concern about rising hostility and hate crimes against certain people simply because of the way they practice their faith and this is frankly a crisis in our country right now im sorry to say and i think that we need to be paying much more closeattention. We have seen attacks on houses of worship across the country. We have seen people attacked and greeted with hostility complete because they where yarmulke or a turban or a headscarf and this is wrong and we have to move more americans from the sidelines to solidarity with people who are being targeted so with a call to action in that respect and also the third reason is that i have a Great Respect for the church state rules that our country as observed at its best. I think we have through our amazing system of religious freedom we have a country that is incredibly diverse religiously, incredibly peaceful for the most part, incredibly cooperative across lines of faith and belief and yet we see some now interested in changing those Longstanding Church state rules that have made our country so proud and have served our country so well so those are the three reasons i want to call attention to in this book and i hope that the bookserve all three of those purposes. Start by unpacking the book because it a real, it reflects all of your own personal commitments, your experience and your legal background. And the interesting thing to me is how just meticulous it is and looking at all the different us Supreme Court decisions and other things that really have impacted this discussion, but walk us through a little bit of the book and then go all youll have to buy area but you know, walk us through the book a little bit. What are you trying to put out there, because the chapter particularly on religion at 1600 pennsylvania is a brilliant thing. Ive already ripped it off and im going to use it in the class im teaching. You have my permission. Mike teaches a great class on that. I teach a class on religion and the american presidency wesley Theological Seminary but tell us more about the book. The book starts out with just laying some foundations after the introduction to talk about how we got these religious liberty guaranteed in our federal constitution and laying out some of the history there and then moves on to talk about the concepts of the Supreme Court has read and when asked in interpreting our religious liberty guarantees and our constitution and otherwise and then it looks topically at various areas starting with faith and 1600 pennsylvania avenue. Its one of the things i was struck by when i worked at the white house was how much faith has played a role in the white house. Theres, i told the story chapter begins with a story about john adams letter to his wife abigail with a prayer for the white house, saying that may not honest men know and work here. And great in the mantelpiece over the comments it over the fireplace in the state 90. And when i was having atrying day , i would walk over there and reflect and stand there and because i was so inspired by that. So we have in the white house we see that president s are practicing their faith while theyre serving often and so we have that going on. And also as Michelle Obama the first lady so eloquently said that the white house is the peoples house so we celebrate holidays there of all sorts including secular and religious holidays and we also have work that we do that intersects with the religious liberty guarantees of constitutions and other legal guarantees religious freedom so thats how it starts, looks at religion, policy and politics, then moves on to look at religious expression happens on Government Property and the photo, the fifth photo on the cover is one example of religious expression on Government Property right outside the department of homeland security. This was a protest i Women Leaders of faith against the family separation policy. And it shows this idea of equal access, use by religious groups as well as secular groups of public parks. Other public property thats open to private nongovernmental groups for their use and i think thats part of the genius of the american system that we can bring our faith in on Government Property and express it as people of faith and religious institutions and communities. It goes on to talk about unsurprisingly governmental partnerships with faithbased organizations is the job, one of the jobs i held at the white house where the Government Works with Faithbased Community neighborhood organizations to serve people in need, whether its and im seeing so many people in the room with whom i worked on these important projects whether its working to turn back the ebola or seek out viruses, and that includes not only trinity people were suffering dealing with misinformation. When people were, very fearful about these viruses, we were able to work with religious leaders among others to put out facts instead of foam and fear about these diseases and i cant tell you how critical that was in getting the right information to americans. So talked about that and it goes on to talk about faith in federal funds because at hot topic we make it into a little bit today. Religious exemptionsand accommodations , religion in the workplace and also dealing with a crimes and discrimination that religion based. So thats a little bit of a skip and jump through the book. A fundamental question you had asked if you dabble in this area as i do and you certainly have done is we believe in separation of church andstate. So why should we be talking about religion if were talking about what the roleof government is to mark they should be totally separate. Why are they connected . Im certainly a supporter of separation and church and state but i dont believe i dont think its properly understood that means government and religion cant have anything to do with each other, thats a misunderstanding. The way i like to describe Church State Separation is the idea that religious and governmental sectors to have some meaningful independence from one another. They have to control their own fears and away so that we can have that freedom flourish. Though that is often a misunderstanding that we have to counter right out of the box so that people will understand that yes, religion in governments can cooperate when they decide to do so on shared concerns and that does not violate the separation of church and state. At the same time we always want to be careful for example the government isnt it selfpromoting religion. The government isnt allowing grant funds to be used by sacred texts were to pay for religious activities thats inappropriate and if not only not good for all americans in their consciousness , its actually bad i believe for religion when the government is involved in promoting and funding religious activities directly because what we see happen then is that the government begins to control religious expression and moderate or suppress elements of an authentic religious witness in a way that distorts the religious witness and watereddown power to call the state to account. When the government funds, funds through a grant for example religious activities going to regulate religious activities. Thats not good for religion either so i think we need to respect Church State Separation and understand it doesnt mean that religion and government and have any contact or cooperation. Dont get too wonky on us but you do a great job of kind of explaining the establishment clause, the free exercise clause and then the incorporation doctrine. So walk through a little bit of that, these are constitutional principles that i think are very important in this discussion and understanding them and really respecting them is really important. We have the First Amendment of course says Congress Shall make no law was thinking establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof so that first clause is no establishment clause for the establishment clause depending on how you like to say and to put it simply, the government cannot promote or denigrate religion. It cant prefer one faith over another. And the free exercise clause, its accommodated matter these days but it definitely keeps the government from pardoning religious exercise. From regulating religiously motivated conduct in a way that would do the same with sexually motivated conduct and of course we have the no religious test clause in the body of the constitution as well that says government cant place a religious test on a office so we cant say that you have to believe certain religious things or disbelieve certain religious things. In order to serve our country as we want everybody to have a fair shot, whatever they believe, whatever faith they have or other belief that a half we want them to be able to serve our country. Thats how we the real strengths of our whole is in re. Tell the story since im from montgomery county, tell the story of the guy that really received this. There was a Supreme Court case of a man who wanted to serve as a notary public and in order to hold that job, he had to pass certain tests which made sense for that area, but then at the end of the statement that he had to make was a statement that i believe in god and other religious statements which sounds very odd when youre trying to fulfill that particular office but of course it shouldnt be true for any office so he objected. He said im not going to violate my conscience by saying i believe things that i dont believe and indeed i shouldnt have to do this in order to be a public, do this Public Service for my country and he struggled through the courts but then ultimately got to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court agreed with him. They didnt rule particularly on the no religious test clause but they said the First Amendment says no one should have to affirm or say they do not believe certain religious ideas in order to serve our country and i think thats exactly the right ruling. The reason i ask this is can you get elected president of the United States if you are not a religious person or dont profess a belief in god . There can be no official test for our president. That doesnt mean there arent unofficial test that are applied by people and that is a different matter, its not a legal issue but one i think that the spirit of the constitution speaks to and we should always bear in mind that some of our greatest president s wouldnt be characterized as orthodox believers of onesort or another. We think about thomas jefferson, abraham lincoln. They had religious beliefs of some sort but they didnt fit a cookiecutter picture and so i think we should always make clear that we are going to look at the people and their qualifications and not put our own informal religious test that would disqualify people simply because they dont hold our own religious beliefs or because they dont hold religious police at all. The course that im teaching now in religion and the american presidency at wesleyseminary is , its remarkable looking at all our early president s and Going Forward about how skeptical many of them were about organized religion. And how they expressed their faith in very interesting, sometimes range ways if any of you ever go to the smithsonian you can buy the jefferson bible. Which is cut out everything that has to do with miracles and divinity. And. Shrinks considerably. But reaffirms it strong belief in kind of the essential gospel message of taking care of people who are in need. And its striking how much the presidency has sort of not wanted to introduce these matters of faith and religion into our public discussions. I know youve worked on that and i want you to talk a little bit about your time at the white house on the president obama but you know, what is the real rule that religion should play in the public life of the country western mark and how do you define public and how do you define faith and thats something i think you put some real character and character in the book. Thanks, i know those terms are litigated if you will but what is public life, what is the Public Square and when i use it in the book as i explained in the introduction, i mean not just government which is often referred to as our Public Sector but also anyplace thats publicly accessible or visible , whether its a synagogue front lawn or some other area in town. Anything thats notbehind closed doors of the house of worship or homes im defining it very broadly. So religion does have a role to play in our Government Property and in elements affairs, defined of course as always by our religious liberty guarantees you that we shouldnt also forget that we have our front lawn of our houses of worship and people can post the 10 commitments there if they want or some other religious sign or scripture and thats another use of religion in the Public Square. I think as far as how we should approach these, i think we should make a constant with no religious test clause and the spirit of that area that we shouldnt ever ask americans or our leaders to endorse religious beliefs. We should let them be who they are but what we should say to them is you are responsible for being good stewards of the religious liberty guarantees of the constitution and other law. And it doesnt matter that youre not a person of faith, you are a person of faith. You are beholden to support the constitution. And those guarantees are there for us all to respect and to protect together. So one of the things that i encourage people in the running for office is to talk about their vision for how they would respect religious liberty while in office. Religious liberty for all people and people of all faiths or none as well as what role they see religion playing in public life was and be something thats related but somewhat different where they may say i want to make sure that we bring together religious communities and other humanitarian organizations to work on some shared concerns if theyre willing to do so so thats something that i will do in my administration. Also consulting with religious people as well as secular groups on matters of Public Policy i think is important to do and another thing there is just to make sure that we reaching outvery broadly in that sense. We had times in which catholics were persecuted in the 1900s. We have times now in which people of the islamic faith are being persecuted almost directly because of statements that come from the highest position in the land. So how do you moderate that . How do you ameliorate him of those tensions and polarizations that have crept into our public dialogue . Two ideas to get us started, one is that weve got to have our leaders be held accountable if they are ever doing fear mongering on the basis of faith, race, ethnic city, other personal characteristics. We must hold them accountable. There can be no tolerance for this in theamerican leadership. Secondly i think of relationships and im glad we will get talk about that more im sure today but we find that people forming true relationships with others is the best way to blow away misconceptions about people of different faiths and beliefs and luckily we got some great panelists were going to comeout and embody , how they have made friendships in so many in this room have done so and that just changes everything when we can bring people into conversations and partnership. Yes, but who does that job of that kind of accountability . How does that happen . It has to be all of us, it has to be other elected leaders, especially leaders of their own parties accountable. It have to be others who are associated, again especially when its someone you voted for or of your party and its important to hold them accountable that i think its all of us being very loud and making it clear that this kind of fear mongering just will not be tolerated. It has no place. And the last thing that our leaders should be doing is pouring salt in the wounds that might divide us. Instead they should be bringing us together and frankly weve got a lot of work to do their area and we got our work cut out for us. Im glad to be having this conversation right now. To last questions and then iwill invite our panel to come up. You make a distinction between what is compromised and what is Common Ground and talk about that a little bit. Its a very important distinction. Compromise is meeting somewhere in the middle. Slicing almost in half and meeting in the middle and Common Ground is trying to find places where people who differ about a lot of things perhaps but still agree about an important area or more than one area. So its an agreement that we find despite our other disagreements. And its not that were changing positions, although we can change of course but its finding those sweet spot of agreement and i know everybody in this room has worked hard to dothat. Its hard work but it so important because once we find the Common Ground we start to view people not as enemies, not aspeople that we cant work with on anything. We find that out and once we find that one thing we are going to find another thing and another i think it plays a role in diminishing polarization in that Common Ground pastor. Last question, if people buy the book which you all should today, whats the one thing that would be most exciting to you to hear as a response to the book . Thats a great question. Certainly, if i felt that people who had been lamenting the targeting of people because of their faith had decided that there were no longer going to have a private laments but a public advocacy on behalf of people theirneighbors , our fellow citizens in this country, if that happens, i would be overjoyed. That would be an ideal outcome. Okay. So we got a great panel here. Were going to write up sabrina. From the religion Freedom Center. You have to tell us whats going on with the religious Freedom Center. In my machine. Please join us. Shes from the old commissary on muslim society, adams center. And then rabbi david ever seen who i think many of you probably know well and who is like the most committed and effective Public Advocates in the whole world. So i want to start the panel. Let me throw out a question to you, just about the book. I mean, i think you all probably have gotten familiar with it. You see the themes that melissa is talking about with respect to religious liberty, freedom of expression, and how we have dealt with that. Whats your take away, as you think about your book, whats yourprimary take away . From the book. Ill start with you. First of all, id like to thank condoleezza for the beautiful great work in this book. As a muslim in america at this time, i find the book and its questions and figure some of the most important conversations about really this freedom and i was very pleased to see also you have the talk about what the Muslim Community decided in that case in the book. I think that today, we see this tension between religious freedom for all, or religious freedom forsome. And i think and im hoping this book could be a great way of bringing people together to have conversation on this issue. And i have a book signing in a month bringing jews and christians and buddhas and hindus together so that we can have a public discussion about these very important issues. Such a lovely author offer, thank you. I would certainly say first of all, well done. Well said, well written. Very thoughtful. As i read through the book the thing that kept coming up to me as collaboration, Human Dignity. In this fight and this movement for religious freedom for all. And how you tell the stories. It was so important to me in reading this and not forgetting voices in the conversation. And the biggest take away for and thinking intersection only about it. Thank you. First, if sabrina would let me reach across. The difference in our personalities. These are my carefully written notes. I agree with both my colleagues said. Sabrina i will pick up on what you said. I was struck by the usefulness in assess ability of the book. It is rare to have somebody right a really superbly crafted academic analysis of issues in a manner thats accessible to the average reader. Even without a background in the spirit you can really follow it. But also the way it was structured which is unusual. How many of you have had a chance to really delve into the book . Very few. The way it structured, it begins with some of the Key Takeaways of the chapter. Then you know where its going. Its really helpful, particularly if you not someone that lives in this world. You get what youre reading in depth. And illustrated by the cases she discusses so clearly. And then at the end, offers field recommendations in each one of the areas that shes dealing with. As to what our nation might do that would really help find Common Ground and compromise on these issues if thats not possible, at least understand where the differences come from in a way that can enhance respect and the willingness to hear and listen on the other side. On this level, its an extraordinary book. Really the best ive seen in combining those aspects. If you asked what might take away, thats my bottom line. I want to ask all of you to talk about the best melissa writes about her experiences in the white house. And having an office of faithbased outreach and community. Neighborhood partnership. But the idea was there is an office in the white house thats actively engaged in involving faithbased communities and the work and project the white house was about. Is that appropriate . Is that something we should want to have . Is that legitimate . Some people would say, we want to keep that religion stuff out of the public dialogue so goes to the heart of what shes writing about in the book. Whats your take away on that . It is a difficult tightrope to walk in terms of the concerns you laid out. Many of us who remember on the first faithbased office was devised under the bush administration, there were profound concerns in that there may be misuse in breaking down the walls of the church of state making it a tool of government. Religion of government here. That is quite alarming. There were some important complaints about the way the office were under the bush administration. I think almost all the directors actually went out of their way to do things that genuinely were saying, we simply want to be able to engage with this very important segment from something the majority of the American People and an aspect of their life that is vital to them. We want to do it on institutional grounds. Their definition did not always jive with what my instant of what the constitution required. It was a good faith effort. A couple noticeable breaches where it was engagement connected with electoral things that were troubling. By the time the Obama Administration came from a lot of lessons have been learned by that. In the very beginning, melissa was there in the second term. A lot of important lessons. They werent using government for religious purposes. They werent allowing the government to manipulate religion. It was a genuine effort to say, where religion has the ability to interact with government on constitutional grounds, we want to do it right. We are here not only to help build that relationship to help guide religion as to what allowed and not allowed. When melissa came on here you have the blessing of somebody both knowledgeable religiously and deeply and profoundly about the law. And very quietly engaged with the entire structure and system. And all of the faithbased offices in all of the arms of the administration had a spaced offices in two years of her tenure was all but one state department to absent right guidelines as to how to go about that interaction. Particularly when government is providing social services to ensure there wouldnt be a violation of the establishment clause or any imposition on the exercise really one of the great achievements of that administration. It took those protections to a higher level than i think we ever have in the history of america and almost everyone knows, it was a sad moment for our country when this administration really unraveled so much of what had been achieved. I think it is a tight rope. Easy to fall off with the best of intentions but it plays a valuable role and the government can interact in a way with the religious communities of america in a partnership that can really help millions of individuals in this country and the country as a whole. I dont want to be too graphic but you had a specific exactlys work in government. Talk about what you did because it establishes the parameters here to the state of the church to. It picks up on one piece which is the idea that religious freedom is a core american principal and the Supreme Court in the 1940s and 50s and 60s began to significantly expand their interpretations into robust interpretations of the establishment clause. Which you can go at great length in melissas book and get exactly all of that. And when that happened, it was exactly that era that the were written as International Norms in this area. Had a profound pact on rulings of our high court. On the evolution of those documents. We pursue that idea of religious freedom as a core principle of human rights available to all. While we were doing that work, there already was a us id for obvious necessity. There was such an Office Engagement played an Important Role and a very constructive role in helping that work move forward. In addition, the secretary, secretary carrie, decided he needed to have a Robust Office that would do engagement from the state department and at the same time would ensure religious issues in so far as they affect american policies abroad in terms of combating violent extremism democracy and stabilization. Human rights more broadly. Providing aid and a whole range of issues that that might be integrated in Foreign Policy he created an office under sean casey. That i think did a very effective job. Now been folded into the office that has and never will focus and it remains to be seen are they really doing anything as far you can tell . Which is the day . Religious freedom, i think has done a good job. What will happen with the other piece of it, remains to be seen. Its a little too early. I know there are good people working hard but trying to find how its going to work in this new format. But there are career people will continue to do work. Sabrina, tell us about the religious Freedom Center very hopeful that the future of the museum and everything been working on will continue and flourish. Because its so vital. But, you know, in the First Amendment, were talking about the freedom of religion. But freedom of the press and all things embodied are so critical to the discussions we are having in the country now. Tell us more about your work. At the religious Freedom Center, we are a nonpartisan nonsectarian Nonprofit Initiative committed to educating the public about religious freedom as a constitutional and human rights. We do that in many ways we look at three audiences. Religious and civic leaders, educators as well as business leaders. If you imagine all of these are very influential individuals in our society. Were taking a different approach in terms of how we offer education. We offer a lot of programs and events and we actually have a graduate course we offer as a weeklong incentive in january that we host students from seminaries that are interested in learning more about the impacts of religious freedom on africanamericans. If a project now that is funded by the foundation that looks at africanamerican perspective as it pertains to religious freedom. There is a narrative that has been told about america but many other narratives that havent been spoken of. We also offer professional development to educators. We have Online Professional Development that we do. A lot of speaking engagements in terms of effective dialogue workshops. One of the things in reading this book that stood out to me is is so important that we have the tools and resources but we also have to know how to engage in effective dialogue to be successful in achieving our goals. So weve been privileged to work with people from 30 different religious identities and non. A lot of it on the shoulders of doctor charles haynes. Who for many years did work in finding Common Ground in Public Schools in terms of teaching about religion. So what were doing is continuing charles legacy in many ways and being very specific in providing opportunities to institutionalize this work. When you think about Theological Institutions. Their training them to think theologically and critically about their religious perspective. But at the same time, religious leaders engage in conversations in the Public Square. So the need to be equipped with the tools and resources about Civic Education to really speak on this in a constitutional way. So from their faith perspective but at the same time to understand the significance of this First Amendment that protects everyones rights. So we are committed to this work at the religious Freedom Center and we will continue to do this work. Where a Grant Funded Program so a lot of our projects will continue for years to come but the work is significant and important. Full disclosure, your program and my program have been in close collaboration and its really been profitable for everybody involved. Successful in many ways. We have a Partnership Like i said with this is historically black institutions. Wesley has been partnered for many years and sending students to us to take our courses. Hes posting us in january for our weeklong incentive. Again, it speaks to the importance of Theological Institutions, graduate schools and being connected with organizations that are doing this work because its so important. And if you read melissas book and buy it, youll see why this is so important. I only promote what i believe in. This is an excellent resource. And a lot of melissas book, it talks about the importance of religious liberty and freedom of expression there has been nothing more challenging in our recent dialogue than the persecution discrimination of those of the islamic faith with an facing real hardship and sometimes outright discrimination in their dialogue in the Public Square. Tell us more about how you deal with that and what the adams center is doing. Thank you. The Muslim Community has a difficult time since 9 11. A lot of misunderstandings and misconceptions about islam and a lot of this misconception comes from people in government. And therefore muslims find themselves, they have to explain themselves over and over again. And public become the spokesperson of the whole islam because he or she has to answer questions. And bullying in school is on the rise. And unfortunately, every time theres an election in america, more attacks and bullying goes through the roof. Because muslims have been used in every election cycle. Everyone tries to prove they are protecting america from muslims. The way so many have run for office. I remember i had a conversation with herbert kane. [indiscernible] therefore, its very tough. But id like to say at the same time our friends from the Larger Community from the christian and Jewish Community have stood by muslims and david was one of those founders of shoulder to shoulder. 30 religious bodies have come together to stand by muslims. [indiscernible] it was those 30 organizations that paid dues and hired someone to coordinate the efforts of all the religious communities. Im worried about the 2020 election. How will muslims or islam be used in this regard. I just want to say american muslims are muhammad ali, the people who have died in this country defending this beautiful country when you talk about american muslims are there with george washington. Its very important for us to change this perspective of what is the role of religion in Public Squares, especially what muslims and islam have contributed to america. Its beautiful when you go to the Supreme Court and you see the dome. When jefferson talked about mohammed and had his own koran its important for us. Thats why i really joined my colleagues here and i commend this book because what it means to be an american to have faith in what faith means to all of us. A to my community always, america is a country that has the phrase, one nation under god. And every dollar bill says in god we trust. What do we mean by that . God of an Inclusive Society were only a group of people thank you for asking that question. Tell us more about the whole subject matter about how we engage in the Public Square. But you reference something, are you worried about people using islamophobia as a tool in the upcoming election . Absolutely. Fear has been used all the time. Fear of muslims. I asked one of the religious leaders, why so much fear about muslims. They said youre going to impose sharia on us. I said you know how many muslims live in america . 4 million. Really . The fear mongering really driving people to hate, to a bigotry against muslims. We have counties that refused to give permission for mosques to be built. It is very important to realize how much this issue impacts the community on the local level. Ill give you one story. My daughter, i have five daughters. One of them or two of them actually, they were girl scouts. Selling cookies. And they do that all the time. They used to pray in a public place. Last year, or the year before they tried to pray in a mall and a gentleman came and said im not feeling comfortable with those girls praying. Security came and stopped my daughter and the girl scouts from praying my daughter asked me, what happened . Please do this all the time. What happened . Why people dont allows to pray . Talking about 1314 years old. I think its discussions that need to be taking place in every major interfaith gathering. What it means to be an american. And i jump in . This is a good example what the mom is talking about in terms of how the book is structured as a tractor on religious discrimination and hate crimes. She shows first with the losses. About not discriminating. About government neutrality toward religion including those who have no faith and have are not believers. A law can be facially neutral and end up discriminating. No state m point he can wear a hat indoors. Sounds like its neutral but its not neutral to the question of religion. In that, its choosing sides. The difference between facial and neutrality. [indiscernible] those are the norms. And then it goes through how there have been times we failed including recent times where courts have struck down executive orders because it was targeting a religion. Even on popular religions are religions. Santeria. They are entitled to the same constitutional protections. The idea of hate speech. In the recognition that hate speech is connected with hate crimes. It legitimizes hate crimes it gives a stamp of approval to the hatred that can spill over to justifying Violent Attacks on people. Then it lays out all the things that need to be done here. Augmenting initiatives in combating extremism and how we can best do that and why government officials need to model the right speech how the religious community should respond if that speech happens in Civil Society should respond . Stepbystep, works us through this. The book gives of the structure to what the ima was talking about, how that actually works. It is a real contribution to the discourse. In the melding of that, clear explanation of the court. Of the laws and how they function with the reality of what life is like and giving us is just a great contribution to our work. I think we agree that a great lawyer wrote a great book. [laughter] more assessable than what most lawyers right. Melissa, respond to what youve heard from the panel. First, every person on this panel is a hero including the folks in this room so i have learned so much from you. I hope all of you see yourselves reflected in the book because youre definitely there. All of you implicitly at least and many of you explicitly. So thank you for that. I am heartbroken by the story you told about your daughter. It makes me think of two things. One that i just saw last night. A clip of some women soccer players. I dont know what team. One team was playing and the woman was wearing a hijab and she went for the ball and headscarf began to pull off her head. Quickly, several members from the other Team Surrounded her so that she could adjust her headscarf and would be shielded from the cameras and the crowd. We need to have that for your daughters. We need to have that for everybody in america. Thats part of Human Dignity and solidarity. The other thing i wanted to mention, in the book, weve offered jfks speech to the greater houston association. If you havent had the opportunity to read the transcript of the q and a with the crowd where jfk is equally brilliant. If not more. And charming this group of captives ministers would i say that as a baptist. [laughter] they were laying traps for him and he just skipped right over all of them so beautifully. But there were so many parallels about misconceptions about catholics about whether theyve been told by the vatican that they could lie on behalf of their face to other people. The same things that echo and we hear today about islam and other faiths. Its so instructive and we have to made great progress in catholicism, although we still face in some respects. We need to accelerate our progress on islam and other faiths. Two do that, we need to bring along all of us that have been touched by discrimination and bigotry before and move from being bystanders into active defense. As you so eloquently said, this is about what it means to be an american. Its a very polarized divisive time, it seems like. What is the role that faith leaders can play to try to bring it back what melissa calls the common good, if not compromised . What should congregations, churches, faith communities, be doingto deal with some of the bitterness and divisiveness and poison thats in our political battle up right now . Not pointing the finger at any particular person i was hoping you would talk about your partnership with david and robert. Thats a great place to start. I think that the religious leader has to be healers. All of this divide and polarization we have. [indiscernable] we bring the three amigos. [laughter] a rabbi, pastor it sounds like the beginning of a bad joke. Trust me there a lot of jokes in this setting. We had invite them to retreat from the major cities and they go back and bring 10 rabbis, 10 pastors, to commit themselves to Work Together for the common good. To protect one another. To find a common project in their neighborhood. Try to bring the community together, not only the pastor and the abut also the congregation together so they can get to know one another. Its one of the most important aspect of this is to speak to people who may have misunderstanding rather than just being with those that agree with you. This project for angelica and christian started with not an easy meeting. And some of the pastor said, please dont take our pictures. They dont like to be seen with imams. After three days they were taking pictures and laughing and joking and realize those imams are just like them. Family issues, concerns, the same concern they have for their community, those imam have. Now in 20 cities planning to surround the world. I would like to say theres very good stories about how the communities to do one another. When i made an announcement after the shooting in aour b was full of people. The same thing that happens in this community. Tomorrow is the anniversary of the shooting tomorrow is the anniversary. When you think about how the Community Comes together at this particular time and how the neighbor comes to us and say we love you we would like you to be here, we stand with you. And how the Muslims Community went to churches on sunday when they heard what happened in sri lanka. Shows there is a lot of hope there is a lot of hope when people of faith. They said not in our name not in the name of our religion. We are here to protect you, to be with you. Thats the hope may have. Can i say its just a beautiful evening, one of many that all three of these and so many leaders in the crowd have done where a house of worship served as such needed gathering place. They had been attacks on the new Zealand Mosques and all the different religious leaders. We needed somewhere to go but you dont want to show up uninvited. Immediately we got an email from imam module saying please come you are welcome. We are having friday prayer and would love to have you here. It wasnt just the of the religious leaders and leaders of other groups that care about these issues that are nonreligious also government leaders. They knew adam center and they trust and know imam margie and they too needed somewhere to go but didnt want to show up unannounced, uninvited, when the invitation came in we had how many of us . 20 government leaders or Something Like that, showing up at his congregation were kind enough to indulge our need to Say Something and to be with them at this time. It was such an uplifting evening and that kind of thing the role that a house of worship and religious leaders can play in the community as a convene or is just absolutely invaluable. I am so glad we can look forward to doing more of that and i think you for what you have done and will do and so many let others along those lines. I want to say that, melissa you wrote about religious freedom remains key to Human Dignity and flourishing. There is a lot that religious leaders could do or leaders of a moral conscience as well. I think it important to think about those that have different worldviews and perspective in this conversation. Theres a lot to take into it, education is the key. As we were speaking anywhere sharing your story imam and talking about your daughter, it reinforces the need for people to really understand or have religious literacy in their toolkit. But you can have a better understanding of religious identity because a lot of this happens because people do not know or are very ignorant to understanding religion and what religious beliefs are. When i think about that im thinking about how in Public Schools to teach about it academically, to inform, to educate that its a part of religion is a part of history. Its a part of the narratives. Its a part of the culture. Its a part of literature. All you need to be taken into account and people need to spend time really educating themselves or getting access to the tools that can help educate them about religious freedom. Especially the First Amendment. Im thinking what are the roles the religious leaders can do. It runs mice perspective somebody who works for seminary to say we are not equipped to teach is part of it but we are going to partner with someone that can. I think i think about how i enter in this conversation in doing this although my religious identity is very eclectic so if i told you youd be like abits very eclectic book thinking about my history and the terms that i was at a seminary i worked at a Theological Institution Virginia Union university. I was on staff as undergraduate admissions person and director of Doctoral Program there. When one of the professors who was the professor of christian history and religion doctor adam bond invited charles watson, who was in the room now from the bjc to come and talk about the work the Baptist Joint Committee does. As it happened to be went to this meeting because at the time i was serving in the capacity as interfaith leader. In that space people wanted to know more about the bills religion where can we find Common Ground as it pertains to being in this interfaith kumbaya space. When i heard what charles had to say about religious liberty unlike this is something i need to take back to the Interfaith Community so they become advocates around this area too. Its more than just having moments we are sitting together and just understanding each others religion but also getting the civic piece in there to say this is the First Amendment this is what it says this is why we should protect each others rights. At the religious Freedom Center one of the things we view as the framework is the Williamsburg Charter thinking about the 3rs, right course possibilities, respect. Everyone has a right to religious freedom. That responsibility mutually we need to protect this right but not just those that have a religious belief but those who do not. At the end of the day we need to engage respectfully and how we talk about how we engage in civic discourse about this topic. We do our work based on those frameworks. The constitution, the universal declaration of human rights. At the end of the day, you have a human being sitting across from you. Although they might be differences in terms of what you believe systems are that you have to do the work like that imam in the rabbi are doing is coming together and you have to bring the community with you. It cant be just a david, i will come to you in a second. One point i would make as we got to develop good curriculum that people can use. When i taught two teachers in the Public School system they are scared to death to talk about this issue because they think they will offend somebody. If they get into religion thats going to be somebodys going to get to stop. Thats the work we are also doing at the religious Freedom Center for three years now the religious Freedom Center has been in partnership with Public School district down in georgia. Its about finding Common Ground is about equipping educators with the tools and empowering them so they are not afraid to teach about religion academically. If they are in the classroom trying to convert people, thats a problem because its not legal. Its unconstitutional for them to do so but if they are given the tools and resources to do so then they are still empowered and feel better about it and the students get to learn. We have consensus documents, resources on our websites that allow for parents to be equipped with the tools to know more. Right now there was a new story that came out about the 16yearold in toledo that was for her job and she was disqualified because it didnt fit their type. People need to have a better understanding about religion, religious freedom in the classroom and we have to be available to assist them in that process. It does happen because even in modesto california there has been curriculum that is built into that School System where students learn about religion but they need to know theres access to the resources. And religious freedom will dive in. I want you to make a comment and i want the audience to have a chance to ask questions. I just want to add a couple of addendum to things that have already been set. The freedom form was in part 30 years ago. To try to develop curriculum materials that are still invaluable today to do this work in other entities the adl and world of difference and other curriculum. Secondly, your description im thinking, melissa, your description of kennedy speaking to the baptist the texas baptist here in part with baylor to acknowledge the difference that baylor has made an offering up a can i put a note that baylor published recently, a mere hussein wrote about aba lovely book. Highly recommended. We all owe you a debt of gratitude to baller and the extraordinary work it does here. It seems to be twice swallowed part of the lead. I just want to pick up on what he was saying before. There are thousands of interfaith entities. On the world scene today theres never been a time where interfaith activities have happened the way they are happening it would never wouldve occurred to them and most generations before the last few generations. And in america its become a norm of our communal and cultural in likeness. Shoulder to shoulder was tough because it was in the middle of the ground zero marks. The question was, how does the religious community really stand up effectively in this resources and addressing this. And with bob roberts, he deserves a lot of credit. I look at what you guys do all the time, muslims and jews in working with catholics and protestants. We got to bring the evangelicals the pastors, read here evangelical pastors, it was a brave thing for him to do and taken a lot of heat. As well as evangelicals around the globe. Asking each community to say, jews, who in your community is driving some of the islamophobia . Were you doing about it . Who in the Muslim Community is driving the antisemitism . Were you doing about it . You know you are going to be getting to the crosshairs of people the figure of crosshairs of people who really will jump on you and make your life miserable to do so. Its an attack on the pillars of what our democracy is in the sense of a common will and a civil life that holds us together. Thats the intent of it. Every time over and over again theres not been a single attack that has been responded to by Interfaith Coalition standing in solidarity with those people. In political figures too. I will point out in the book talks about what they should and shouldnt do and solidarity. But i want you to think about this, and that Work Together we are modeling the kind of world we are trying to create. Im so proud of what ive seen the religious communities doing in the face of these hate crimes. I pray it will be the day we will never have another one but remains a source of immense pride about america and courageous religious leaders how we stand in solidarity to that. I think that spirit is captured in the book. What a terrific conversation we invite you to join in if any of you want to add a question. Hi, i had the pleasure of reading the book in its entirety and also want to lend my endorsements its tremendous power and tremendous clarity i think we can all do our best not only to share with our friends but to see the schools and large groups of people, churches, synagogues, get to read it because it gives us so much practical advice. I would like to hear from people about how we think the Faith Community can be more effective in tackling the problems how media escalates hatred and division. Clearly this is a problem for social media because we know that its scientifically designed to do that because anger jealousy hatred were about to read in the jewish tradition cain and abel people figured out they can make a lot of money keeping people on platforms if they could connect them to those emotions. And also get their data. Its also traditional media. Television. Im wondering how can we be more focused on trying to address this problem that is having such an impact on us. Thats a great question. I think one of the things im so glad that we have cspan book tv with us here today to take these stories and reflect them out to people who just to show people what the models are. The best practices for faith groups coming together to defend one another and people of good conscience and goodwill coming together to defend one another. I think we definitely need to be more creative because we are certainly lagging behind in our efforts to get these messages out. I welcome a greater conversation about it but i think maybe we should do a better job of thinking about even just the stories weve surfaced here today, stories are so powerful to people. How can we do a better job of making sure those stories get out to people because that might really grab them in a way that just a dry rhetoric or a call to come together would not. I think its worth thinking about and i appreciate your good question and wonderful support, julie has been at stallworth in this field. I would say one of the things that the freedom form institute through our Museum Education program they offer media literacy. Media literacy is important for people to understand the sources sending out these messages. But providing an account of narrative. One of the things i really love about i fyi see, Interfaith Youth core is their campaign of better together. It helps dispel the myths of the other by really being intentional about engaging with someone who has a different perspective than what you have on worldview. When you have relationship then you can provide a different narrative then whats going out in the media. For people to really use their power and influence to be the storyteller. Tell the story thats different from whats going out in the media. And addressing it through the right way than the guidelines that you want to do so. But present a counter narrative is so important. Media literacy is as equally as important when you are talking about issues that are disrupting the lives of many americans. Better dispelling so many myths and false statements about who people are. I want to go back to, it still points back to religious literacy. And understanding just because two people in the room self identified baptist doesnt mean they do so for the same reason. There is work around that like my colleague has done work around it. About the three bs framework of looking at behavior, belief, belonging, that ties into it as well. That when a counter narrative is being presented that you have perspective on that. A lot of times when im doing conversations i like to tell people, this is how i enter the conversation. You have a better understanding of who i am as a person that helps shape where im going with the topic or with the discussion. A few other things to mention as well, religious communities have a lot of influence. But not so much with the media. Its really hard. We always feel were not being covered well by the media. The old admonition of a million planes landed safely there is no story one crashes with worldwide coverage is true with the religious community too. All good things that we are doing drives us crazy we might get something a paragraph along on the religion page once a week buried in the last page of section b of the paper. But we do have influence when we focus it. And challenging them, pushing them on and protesting things. Google is now playing with the way their algorithms work in guarding people away from it. Part of that happened because of the pressure for some. There are some people in the room who were with me when we went out to see a wonderful person, producer of a very popular show that was extolling torture as an effective way of getting information. It led to changes in a way that show hes dealing with it. The nature of this what really calls for somebody with aif anyone happens to know press secretary whose work at the white house who might give us guidance on these things we ought to think about asking him. That press secretary having ta for the White House Press corps. [laughter] the responsibility of people in government to address some of these issues and step up and be accountable, which is now apparently asian history. There is something to be said for that. I think youve all touched on something to things that are very important to me. I think religious literacy and understanding and developing ways in which we talk about religion and understand it and see it as part of our history and the other thing i would say is civics education, we dont teach civics anymore in Public Schools. And what does it mean to be a citizen . Of course in religious schools youth groups we have access to youth at a time that their lives are shaping their values are shaping an responsibility in terms of social media also in how they talk about this how they deal with bullying, how they deal with optimization. Its also an important responsibility that the religious community. All put in a little plug. Friend of mine former Los Angeles Times reporter alan miller runs think all the News Literacy project and developing ways in which at the High School Level we can actually develop mechanisms to let people let kids understand what is credible information and what is zany outside the box information. I think we need that and we need that in the religious sphere which you read about a little bit in the book. And read governmental literacy in these issues too. Thats a continuing area of focus. When it comes to social media if you google islam theres three books you will see. aband three negative of islam. Its impacted by community and personally when i googled my name and surprise what they are talking about. I believe we have to have a counter narrative for a metanarrative. Responding to all of this. If you stay away from counter narrative i believe you have to have Miles Per Hour a narrative of tolerance, acceptance, understanding, Inclusive Society. But the young people tell the stories. My Community Knows more about social media than i do. If we have to have them to be the one telling the story that will change the narrative perhaps. Lets see if we can get like one or two more questions and i think we will run out of time. Anybody . Or comments. Thank you everybody for this. I have a question for you i sometimes fear getting asked by students that i talked to. How do we talk about foreign policies that seem to be derived from religious favoritism when we say this country is a country that believes in religious liberty for all and then somebody may come and say, how does our Foreign Policy on israel and palestine reflect religious liberty for all and how our policies are made or who we stand behind in that way . Help me with how we should talk about those questions. The confluence of religious freedom factors in general for people who live in israel there are constraints that get mixed together with Security Issues and other issues always very complex when that happens. But theres a great deal of religious freedom that exist in israel and even in the territories. One of the oddities of all jewish history is that the only democracy today that is legal discrimination against majority of jews as the jewish state of israel. Because of its favoring orthodoxy and disfavoring all other forms of nonorthodox. But it gets smashed with security factors a get smashed with moses about the settlement. The general future of the west bank and whats going to happen. All of it get smashed together. Those are always very complicated issues when they do because its really is it about religious freedom or security or one subterfuge to the other . These are very complex issues. Obviously its very painful issue i think the vast majority of folks of all religions really are working for the day that there will be a viable two state solution that will fulfill Palestinian National aspirations ensure israels security and in doing so further the interest of all the democratic countries of the world. The religious communities there is an Umbrella Group that a number of us have been involved with decades that have tried to have unified religious field across muslim jurists christian some of the smaller religious populations in the United States working together to have a common voice on these things. But as we sit today, its a heavy lift. I just wanted to recognize charles with the bevis joint committee and thats where i got my start working on religious liberty and cheryl and holly i saw a moment ago. I appreciate their work so much. Brett walker in the late james done with the first ones to give me a chance to work in this field and im forever in their debt. Thank you. Think we have kind of come to the end of our time unless anyone has a burning last question. I have one thing to say from a point of personal privilege. We have with us the woman who is holding the bullhorn in the photo. I cant stop without recognizing her. [applause] she so very eloquently that day and im so pleased shes on the cover of our book. So grateful to each and every one of you and baylor and all my good friends here. One of the great covers of all time i think. Would you please thank rabbi silberstein and doctor webb, doctor dan for a great panel. Thank you. I think our biggest round of applause is for the author. [applause] thanks for mike mccurry. Thank you all. By the book. [laughter]. David you want to come up and explain that . You are all invited to buy the book. [inaudible background conversations] booktv cont