Transcripts For CSPAN2 Discussion On Fall Of The Berlin Walls 30th Anniversary 20240713

[silence] ladies and gentlemen, please welcome former abc news anchor Sam Donaldson. [applause] thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this mornings program. There are dates that all of us have a very personal. There are dates that we have as a country that we all share. In my lifetime december 7, 1941 november 22, 1953, 911, these are three terrible dates of the country. Then there is november 9 1989 good news, the fall of the berlin wall. Presaging the end of the soviet union. Its a subject that we are going to discuss today. How did it happen . What are the consequences . Who did this . Who for a look at whats in store for us this morning its a pleasure to welcome andrew card. Who served in three administrations with the Ronald Reagan as Deputy Assistant to the president and director of intergovernmental affairs. With George Herbert walker bush the treasury secretary abnot treasury, secretary of transportation. And with george w. Bush he was the white house chief of staff. Andrew card. [applause] thank you very much sam. Im honored to be here. We are very grateful for Georgetown University and the school of Foreign Service for helping to hostess the Atlantic Council. We are grateful for the ragan foundation and their institute for helping to host this event. We have many people here who should be introduced and im not going to ask everyone to stand who is important. [laughter] and im not going to ask everyone to sit who is important so that other more important people can stand. [laughter] i am here to say that we are proud to have dorothy bush kluck here, the president s daughter. And ellie ahis granddaughter. [applause] we also have folks from the elected council here. [applause] british robinson is here from the barbara bush literacy foundation. [applause] we also have the eu deputy head of delegation Michael Curtis here. [applause] in the german deputy chief of missions abis here. [applause] this is a remarkable day because we are remembering a truly more remarkable event. Im about to introduce someone who i have the greatest respect for. Above all i know three absolutes about the speaker that i will introduce. First the world changed profoundly when he was secretary of state under president George Hw Bush. As freedom and democracy began to spread around the globe the cold war ended peacefully. Germany was united as a member of the north atlantic to organization and the soviet union imploded. At the same time, todays speaker assembled the International Coalition that ejected saddam husseins troops from kuwait, orchestrated the madrid conference where israel and its arab neighbors discuss peace for the very first time. A negotiated Nuclear Arms Reduction treaties with the soviet union and russia. All that happened after he had served president Ronald Reagan as one of our nations best secretaries of the treasury and before then as white house chief of staff. The position for which he is still considered to be the Gold Standard. Reciting his many achievements could take a long time but i mindful of the speaker second absolute, he always asks that his introductions of him be short. Which leads me to the third absolute, which is of course that when this gentleman asks you to do something, its best that you do it. [laughter] i was honored to be asked by him and to do something and serve abserved president ragan. Im honored to introduce a great american, one of americas most markable leaders and i would like you to welcome the 61st u. S. Secretary of state the honorable James A Baker the third. [applause] [applause] thank you ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much. Thank you andy for that over the top introduction. Thank you as well andy for your many many contributions to this nation. You have been an exemplary Public Servant and the country appreciates it. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the first collaboration between four institutions that i greatly admire for their excellence in preserving the past and in advancing public policy. The george and Barbara Bush Foundation, the Ronald Reagan foundation, the Atlantic Council and Georgetown University all represent the very best in their respective fields. Im confident that todays lessons from the fall of the berlin wall will be an informative and useful examination of an historic event that led to the peaceful conclusion of the cold war. What happened three decades ago this week fundamentally change the world. Since then, when im asked which american president was responsible for the end of the cold war, i typically have replied that it was all of those american president s. Democrats and republicans alike from harry truman through george w. Bush each of them was firmly committed to a free and undivided europe but as someone who served in one capacity or another for four of those president s i hope you can understand why today i want to add that some cold war president s were more directly involved than others. Ronald reagan soaring rhetoric became etched in the hearts and minds of people around the world who desired freedom. Who after all can forget that picture of the gipper at the Brandenburg Gate when he said mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall. Two years after that historic speech the wall did come down. On november 9, 1989. As momentous as that occasion was, president bush 41 understood that the soviet union remained a distinct and potent Global Security threat. Rather than stick it in the eye of his soviet counterparts president bush steered triumphalism in favor of clear diplomacy. As a result, 11 months after the wall came down germany was reunited peacefully as a member of the nato. Over the objections, i might add, of some of our allies and of course the soviet union. Shortly thereafter, the 45 year cold war ended with a whimper rather than with a nuclear bang that we had all feared. As the soviet union itself was dissolved. So today our nations leaders confront their own unique set of International Challenges and as we commemorate the 30th anniversary of the fall of the berlin wall i think it is instructive to recall three factors that both president s reagan and bush kept in mind as seismic changes were underway in europe and around the world. First, both understood that Domestic Support is critical for the successful implementation, i would say formulation and implementation of Foreign Policy. A Foreign Policy that does not have domestic Political Support will not last very long. Unless americans back the decisions of their president s, those policies are doomed to weather and eventually fail. President s reagan and bush both knew that they would be more successful if they have the broad backing of the American People and they both crafted bipartisan foreign policies accordingly. Secondly, International Support is also critical. Both president reagan and president bush realized that a large component of american strength was that we were there promoter and champion of a liberal world order. That revolved around open markets, multilateral institutions and liberal democracy. Allies mattered. They still do. And pack americana in those days with their norstar. And third, both of those president s understood the importance of sustained diplomacy. Both developed strong relations with other foreign leaders but particularly soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev. German chancellor home and call, british Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney and others. Those relationships nurtured trust between countries. And help them reach pragmatic solutions. In the end of course, no one individual was responsible for the fall of the berlin wall and the end of the cold war. Every american president since truman played indispensable roles but above all else it was the enduring spirit of this citizens of the captive nations that finally tipped the scales toward freedom. The lessons that president reagan and bush provided during that critical window of history remain as pertinent today as they were back then. So as our nation continues to confront many daunting challenges, the foreign policies of Ronald Reagan and george w. Bush remain models that all american president s would do well to follow as they seek to promote americas interest and values around the world. Thank you all very much. [applause] [applause] thank you very much secretary baker. Im delighted that youve agreed to spend a few more minutes with us. If youll just have a seat i will call you back shortly. Wait for the call. Reporters want to be where the action is. For a good story is there for the telling. Sometimes careful preparation brings out about. Other times it just happens unexpectedly. As on the day that Ronald Reagan gave a humdrum speech at the washington hilton came out past the rope line and suddenly was met with a spray of bullets from a young man who was standing 5. 5 feet away from me. I would rather not have a good story. When it comes to this great story that we are really visiting today, there was one, only one American Television journalist on the scene when the berlin wall began to crumble. Tom brokaw, yunker and managing editor of the nbc nightly news he was in berlin on a different assignment as he tells it, just fell into one of the biggest arrays of the world, which he own committee here is some of brokaws reporting that night from the berlin wall. It was a night when the world changed right before our eyes. Good evening live from the berlin wall on the most historic night in the worlds history. The berlin wall is a big part of our lives. It was such a physically imposing barricade. It was so much uglier and so much more oppressive than people realize than just seeing it on television. Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall. Even with all the turmoil going on it seemed unlikely that that wall, which was at once such a solid image of oppression would come down in some fashion. And then in a heartbeat it did. I was only journalist on air the night the berlin wall came down. I own that story and that was the end of the soviet empire and we got a i would like to tell you i knew the walls come down, unfortunately i cannot. I didnt know but it did come down on my watch and i will never forget it. East germany remains a country in turmoil tonight. At arrived in berlin two days before the wall came down because there was so much going on in the eastern sector i was able to get into the east for the first time and do some reporting from there. He will represent the best of east germany. Late that afternoon there was a famous News Conference in which a was the propaganda chief screwed up. He was handed a slip of paper the very end and said the bureau has decided all citizens of the gdr can leave the gdr and come back through at any of the transit points. I looked at my German National cameraman and soundman and i said, did he say what he thought we thought he said. They were astonished. They said he did. That means you can go out of the wall and come back anytime you want to. The man gets up and leaves the room. I have an interview arranged with him right after that News Conference and went up and i read it back to him. Ask do i understand correctly citizens of the gdr can lead to any checkpoint they choose for personal reasons . It is ago to the border. I went down and shared with some of my colleagues and i said its over, the wall is over. We got out i called the office in new york and this is mid day back in the states started making preparations for going on the internet night and im practically trying to get us broadcast but together. I rushed out there there were lots of students from the west who come to the top of the wall in the east german guards were trying to hose them off. Then my heart sank thinking there is not to be anybody there they made this big deal about the wall coming down the bulb and cleared off. The people got back up on the wall and by the time we came on air it was like 30. It was chaos. A historic moment tonight. The berlin wall can no longer contain the east german people. It was a worldwide exclusive. Its a historic moment to moment that will live forever. You say the destruction of the berlin wall. Which is throughout the script. I had written this whole broadcast and i said to her producer, stay with me im going to have to ad lib. Everything. I have to go on all my experience about whats been going on in the eastern part of not just germany but the soviet union and how this is the defining moment. Now for the First Time Since the wall was directed in 1961 people will be able to move through freely. I can hear myself think. I just kept thinking, right before we went on air i used the old astronauts cleaned it up some, dont screw this up. This is a big deal. Amazing. As we were standing there somebody said, oh my god, look. They are taking down the wall. It was a guy with a mallet and a chisel beginning to hammer away at the wall. The wall effectively has come down. I mean physically as well. A chunk of the berlin wall. The reporting went on all night long as they chipped away at the wall as they danced on top of it. As they drank a lot. I thought, this is the human story. This is the story of humankind. Local tyrants can only go so far but in the end its how people respond to their captivity and how they get out of it and how they relate to one another. Thats the endurance lesson of everything ive ever seen in journalism. Its a night to remember. Indeed it is a night to remember and those of us a [applause] those of us in abc remember it from the standpoint that tom is right. He was there, he did it and when youre confronted with the real deal, just accept it. And we do and we praise him for it. Joining us now live from berlin is one of americas premier journalists still today looking at finding good stories, tom brokaw. Welcome tom. [applause] thank you. Thank you very much sam, thank you everybody. It was very exuberant. We think watching you today brings back lots of memories. What do you member today 30 years later about that night at the wall . I remember vividly, i also want to say at the outset, it was not just me, it was the whole mbc team. absuggested two days earlier to go to berlin. I said i dont know whats gonna happen is a lot of activity there. I got there and we were around for 24 hours before the memorable newscast with abwe had a cameraman at another bridge got the first film of the people coming across the bridge and crossing into east germany into west germany. It was a combo once of all those and i remember it vividly as if it were yesterday. Standing there thinking, this is one of the biggest stories of my lifetime of the 20th century. Weve got to get it right and with the help of all my colleagues, in fact, i think at the end of the night we did get right it was absolutely thrilling. I remember one of our techies going over and getting a piece of wall and shipping it off and giving it to me and thats been my personal recollection. Someone you know very where noel secretary baker is with us today here in washington and he would like to say a few words with you. Secretary baker, if youd come back up here, take whatever time you require sir. And when you are finished with tom, im going to come back to him. Tom, how are you doing . Im doing well james. Good. I have a question for you before you begin a question to me. [laughter] go ahead. We later learned that shabbat ski, we later learned that abgot it wrong. The po it bureau had not said they could leave, they were looking at a possibility that they would have a program where they could leave and had to come back abwho is a prominent historian at harvard to the whole story and shabbat ski left the News Conference went out to the compound with all of the po with members lived and they were all asleep they didnt know what was going on. My question for you is, did we have any indication from our espionage people and our intelligence people that there was a possibility that this is going to happen . Short answer is no. It came as every bit as much of a surprise to us as it did to you. I remember it very very well i was hosting a lunch for ab president of the philippines and the state permit and an aide passed me a note saying that the berlin people were allowed free transit between the gdr and the republic of germany and it looked like the wall might be coming down. I raised a toast to that prospect. Excuse myself and went over to the white house to meet with president bush and abto talk about what i a response ought to be. I think history will clearly mark the correctness of george bush moderated response to what was a cataclysmic event because he knew that we still had a lot of business to do with global job and we were going to stick it in there i but the answer to your question is, as far as i know we did not have any advance knowledge at all intelligence or otherwise. One of the things that we learned in my trips back here and since then i spent the day at the stockade headquarters that was the infamous group on the east part of germany that was arresting citizens left and right. I saw four miles of files on each german citizen and finally the oppression, that complete pressure on east german citizens that they could have lived their life as they wanted to broke through and i felt the wall came down mostly because of our strong stand in the west but also citizens from the ground up in the east pushing back against a its absolutely right. Ive just given a few remarks here at this event in which i said that i dont think any single american president was responsible for the fall of the wall. Every one of our american president s and every administration from harry truman through george w. Bush were steadfast in opposing the spread of communism and the imprisonment of the people of the captive nations of Eastern Europe. I said and i believe strongly as i suspect you do, that was the indomitable spirit of the citizens of the captive nations that made possible our victory in the cold war. 30 years later, what are the lessons now for modern america and the west . One of the lessons is that diplomacy works when its properly exercised. We are here at georgetown which has as you know is extraordinarily fine school of diplomacy and International Relations and i think last night i went to an event in the state department where theyve established a National Museum of american diplomacy. We only have 400 museums better military in their nature and there has never been a museum in the United States or an institution for that matter that celebrates the historical events of american diplomacy through the years. The state department has now established in one and i think its a very good thing to do but most of all, if you look at the diplomacy that george w. Bush pursued in the aftermath of that stunning victory of the fall of the wall, he knew we had a huge task to perform to try and reunite germany peacefully as a member of the nato. He knew that we had to continue to try and achieve a peaceful and of the cold war. I think Mikhail Gorbachev, im sure you may share this too but i think Mikhail Gorbachev will be remembered very well by history because he after all was the first soviet leader who did not elect to use force to keep the empire together. I couldnt agree with you more. I did the first interview with Mikael Gorbachev. One of the things i remember i was reading for the first time they were putting russian equipment on it. Which was not nearly as sophisticated as ours. I reached over his lapel to change it and it looked at him and said, mr. Gorbachev, you have to understand is what i have to do in my job every day. He looked at me with a stern appearance and said, he would not believe what i have to do in my job every day. [laughter] it was the beginning of a very strong relationship. [laughter] i want to Say Something if i can about modern germany because we been here for a few days and theres a lot of turmoil in Central Europe and in the place of germany. The fact of the matter is, this country in the last 120 years started two world wars with the holocaust on the couches and then became partners with the west and the big issue is where does germany go from here and where to Central Europe go from here. I be interested in some of your thoughts on that. I think its extremely important that we continue to pursue a policy of anchoring germany firmly into the west. Another significant achievement that we talked about a lot last night in terms of a diplomatic achievement was to get germany unified in peace and freedom as a member of the alliance over the opposition of our allies the british and the french and the soviet union who were steadfast opponents to german unification. We got that done. And that was done through the steadfast and strong practice of death and continuing diplomacy. We need to remember that, we also need to remember in this country how important our alliances are to the strength of america. Our alliances enable us to leverage our leadership our world leadership significantly. Those alliances are fraying. I had dinner last night next to the ambassador of germany to the United States and we both bemoaned the fact that the relationship between germany and the United States is not as strong as it was. During those days and the end of the cold war and the way we all cooperated to deal with those challenges at that time we need to do that again today. And no we dont want to take up all the frams time but my closing thought is mr. Secretary and sam is that in my few days here already and this is my third trip back to germany since the wall came down, ive been reminded about how conscience everybody is in this country about what they went through. Whether living in the east or the west they have real difficulties going on right now. The people who were left in the east are not very happy about how theyre being treated with her trying to work on it. I would hope in america younger generations including my children and my grandchildren will be more conscious of how we all have a stake in preserving peace, not just in our country but around the world. Absolutely. I couldnt agree with you more. I think thats the challenge facing our policymakers today and i just given a few remarks here in which i said i thought those amight be very selfserving and i apologize for that but i think those policymakers would do well to look at the foreign policies of Ronald Reagan and george w. Bush and how they were pursued and formulated and how they were implemented. Because we are facing some of the solar challenges today. I really think that its imperative that we recognize the importance of the north atlantic alliance, the importance of American Leadership in the world because that gives cohesion, that gives the europeans a reason and a way to come together because a lot of those words you are talking about started right there in europe. I fear that others could see it happen as well if we dont restrengthen the north atlantic alliance. It sure is good to see you tom. Theres a lot of quail in texas waiting for you to get back. [laughter] [laughter] they will still be alive when i leave unfortunately. Thank you. Thanks very much for having me on. Tom, i want to thank secretary baker. By the way, should you decide to run for the presidency i think you might have some support. [applause] [laughter] tom brokaw, my friend tom. I have prepared a number of very tough questions. I know how to do it on you but, tom, you understand when i tell you, we didnt buy more satellite time its about to expire so ive got to thank you for joining us today. [laughter] [applause] my pleasure and my honor. Goodbye tom. Hes really a great guy. If you think of him as competition in my day and today among reporters and networks and news organizations of course it was but it was all kind of a paternity which he knew the good guys were and he was one of the top. Tom was the best. Now i better move over to the chair here. James a baker said he was 90. Im 86. If you find a chair, refused to sit down. Joining us now are two scholars who are recognized experts on our subject today. Jeffrey ingle is the founding director of the center for president ial history at Southern Methodist university. An expert on the presidency and history of modern american diplomacy. His written 12 books on these subjects including one titled the fall of the berlin wall. The revolutionary legacy of 1989 and his latest book is titled impeachment in american history. Thank you for being with us today jeffrey. Peter robinson is the murdoch distinguish policy fellow at the Hoover Institution and the host you still do the television show. The host of hoovers Television Interview program uncommon knowledge. He was a principal speechwriter for both George Herbert walker bush and Ronald Reagan. And the author of a book how Ronald Reagan changed my life. Perhaps peter you will always be best known as the person who wrote the speech for president reagan that contain perhaps the most famous line ever delivered standing in front of the berlin wall we will get to that. Welcome to you too. Throughout the cold war berlin was always the focal point of conflict between United States and the soviet union. In 1948 you may recall people of a certain age the soviets under Joseph Stalin blocked the road access to berlin because it had to come to their zone. That very dangerous situation was relieved only with the airlift in which supplies to the city were brought in by air. The second berlin crisis began in 1958 abdemanded that the allied occupation of berlin edited and berlin became a free city, jeffrey, please pick up the story from there. We have to remember germany is at the heart of the entire cold war. Theres an ideological function between communism and capitalism we always focus on but the true struggle is who is going to control the resources of Central Europe and for ab he had a major problem in the late 1950s and 60s as he tried to consolidate power in germany germans kept leaving. They would go into the american zone and not come back. The people were voting with their feet ultimately decision was made in moscow to arrest the wall. A walmart to keep people out but to keep people in. To keep the people from leaving because the best and the brightest were the ones who most wanted to find a new life in the west. M also corrected that our Intelligence Services and the Intelligence Services of other western nations went into east germany freely do there being no checkpoint there and able to establish the agents and the gdr was upset about that. The geography is key. Its something act explain my students. Because germany was divided into four zones and the end of world war ii. And berlin. Even after the consolidation of the British American and french zones we still have that section and berlin that was internationally controlled in the heart of the german capital. We are really hardpressed to find another example of a country that is willing to have another country in charge of its major capital city for decades on end. abtried time and again to give the americans and their allies to leave. Will come back to the spirit of direction of the wall but i got to jump ahead to the most dramatic period which is what we are celebrating today. Peter, ted sorensen wrote for john f. Kennedy famous couple of lines, ask not what your country can do for you, and he wrote these powerful lines from Ronald Reagan, your president , which he delivered in 1987. I was there standing in front of the Brandenburg Gate of the berlin wall. Arguably his most remembered lines that he ever delivered. Lets hear some right now. General secretary gorbachev if you seek prosperity for the soviet union and Eastern Europe if you seek liberalization, come here to this gate mr. Gorbachev, open this gate. [applause] mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. Wow, how did you come to write those lines . And went to berlin to do some research about six weeks before the president delivered the speech senior staff simply said he was going to stand here he will have an audience of 10,000 or 40,000 people he will talk for 30 minutes. Say something about Foreign Policy. [laughter] most of that day went badly for me the young speechwriter. I went to the site where the president would stand, people, tom brokaw remarked on this, its almost impossible now to convey once the wall is gone what it felt like at that place you look in east berlin and it was though the color had been drained from a photograph. Gray, dilapidated buildings, soldiers marching back and forth. You look in berlin, color, activity, life, the dividing line of the wall. I just thought, what do i write . What do i give the president is equal to him and to this place . In the evening i broke away from the American Party and white to a suburb of west berlin where berliners put on a dinner party for me. I didnt know anyone there but the host and hostess and i had a mutual friend in washington. I explained that ive been told of the ranking american diplomat that the president shouldnt mention the wall. They all got used to it. And there was a silence. I thought id just committed the faux pas that the aband one man raised his arm and pointed and said, my sister lives a few kilometers in that direction, how do you think we feel about that wall . They went around the room each person talking about the wall they had stopped talking about it but they had stopped hating it. There hostess a lovely woman called abcharming throughout the dinner party but now she became angry. She said if this man is serious with this talk, he can prove it by coming here and getting rid of that wall. That went into my notebook because i knew the moment i heard that that of president reagan had been there in my place, he wouldve responded to that remark. The power the decency the simplicity the truthfulness of it. Its true that i put the words on paper but that speech belongs to Ronald Reagan. I was every bit of it was my trying to give him material that for his belief. His mode of expression for that specific spot in that moment. What you wrote did not please his entire Foreign Policy establishment. Tell us about that. That is true. You and he against the world. I take those odds. [laughter] the speechwriters we pulled a little bit of a fast one. Ordinarily speeches went out to staffing before they went to the president but in this case long story i wont go into it but in this case we got it to the president on a friday as he was headed to camp david we met him the following monday and we discussed the speech and he said he particularly wanted to deliver that line about tearing down the wall. That wall has to come down. I just remember that vividly in the oval office. Then the speech went out to staffing and for the three weeks between that meeting and the oval office in the day he delivered the speech the state Department National Security Council tried to suppress it. The state department was concerned it would put gorbachev on the spot by calling him out personally. This went on and on and finally ken adeputy chief of staff a friend of yours sat the president down they were in italy which is where the president was speaking before going to berlin. There was a economic summit and he took the speech back to the president for another decision. Talked about the objections, had the president read essential passage and then ken told me they talked about it and then Ronald Reagan got got the Ronald Reagan twinkle in his eye and said, im the president of our die ken . That was Ronald Reagan. Jeffrey, who was right on this one . President reagan or his entire Foreign Policy team . What you point out before you answer that that we are at a university i have 10 years so i can parade real truth. They were both right but i think, honestly, president reagan was less right than the Foreign Policy team. The real danger is not that the soviets will be too friendly its not that Mikael Gorbachev will tear down the wall, its that he will do Something Like tear down the wall and then find himself facing a coup the next week. Anything i think that was done to encourage opposition to gorbachev to put them on the spot was extraordinarily dangerous. Here i think you can see a real interesting difference between the Reagan Administration and the Bush Administration. Secretary baker said at the time when he came in in 1989 this is not a friendly takeover. There really was a different mindset because the Reagan Administration as a historian i would say was fundamentally focused on the right moral path of trying to end the soviet union and end the cold war ended and give a whole lot of thought to what happened the next day. For as the Bush Administration was confronted immediately with the problem of do we deal with gorbachev and what happens next. They essentially had to pick up the pieces of the great moral clarity that reagan offered. You are quite right. When Ronald Reagan was not president when he said about the communist state and the soviet union was interesting and people agreed or disagreed with him but when he became president that was important to get his view as president of the United States and it is First Press Conference i asked him what he thought the soviet union was interested in detente or by some other means of world domination. And out it came they lie, steal, cheat, commit any crime and i thought, wow, the boys in moscow most of it is love that. They were terrified of it. This is one of the things we now know. One of the great things about having a state collapses you get to keep the records. We now know that there was a series in 1983 in particular of events where soviet policymakers heard Ronald Reagan, heard him talk about a crusade of fire. Heard them talk about purging the world of communism oh. And were genuinely worried that he meant what he said. She really took the president at his word. No its hard to imagine these days but president ial words matter. If you really take the president at his word if youre in moscow were very scared. The academic approach of course had its place in a Great University such as this but if i may say so, you are worrying about something that worked in practice, im wondering whether it could work in theory. It worked out. [laughter] [applause] this is a fundamental problem of how we teach and understand history. Just because something works out well doesnt mean it was destined to work out well. But it does mean that it did work out well. [laughter] i would say one more thing. Derek allen told me the day after that press conference the president said to derek allen, who was then National Security advisor, date, the soviets do lie cheat and steal dont they . Vic allen said, yes mr. President of course they do. The president said, all right then. [laughter] i think you have two views here and think about it but pete, i want to ask you question about what reagan might have done in 1961. Tough guy, meant what he said and called what he saw it. When the wall was being directed many people, some people at least, thought that john kennedy should move aggressively to stop it. He had the Legal Authority from the standpoint of the agreement. Beyond that of the soviets could get away with that, what couldnt they get away with . He had been to vienna and came after that meeting with ab telling scotty in the New York Times he savaged me. He took me. Would reagan in 1961 have said no wall and ive got the force to stop it . I believe Ronald Reagan would have done just what john kennedy did. Which is to say you pursue the policy up containment. You draw lines. John kennedy said in one meeting or another during the berlin wall crisis, all right, we have Legal Authority to take the wall down but suppose they put it up again six inches inside their own borders. Containment was pushing back against the soviets but not creating a general war. Ronald reagan we now look back over eight years there was one military engagement in the island of granada. He was very cautious. He was rhetorically aggressive. Morally aggressive. But very cautious on the ground. I believe different parties that Say Something about, Ronald Reagan himself said he didnt leave the Democratic Party the Democratic Party left him. Reagan we know supported harry truman in 1948. He headed an organization in hollywood supporting truman and he had great admiration for fdr. But also admiration for john kennedy. They pursued fundamentally similar policies. Jeffrey, we are running out of time. I want you to talk about what i mentioned when kennedy met ab he clearly got the better by his own admission what was the result of that . The result of that was he felt that he had the ability to put Nuclear Weapons into cuba. We dont get the cuban missile crisis without john kennedy essentially doing poorly by his own admission in vienna by the same token if we say we want that you would praise reagan for pursuing kennedys policy of containment i would argue that thats exactly what you did not do in 1987. Because reagan calling out the soviet union to collapse, which great mind and something that is very aspirational he wonderful suggest the United States had the power to make it happen. The changes going on in the soviet union were actually what brought down the soviet union. They called on mr. Gorbachev to tear down the wall. There was nothing involving American Power at all. At that point he felt he had debt adealt with gorbachev. Im going to extend this a little bit. Because what happened now what happens as a result of the fact that the berlin wall did come down prepared at a time it looked like democracy was on the rise. Gorbachev still had soviet tanks and until that moment every time there was these uprisings in Eastern Europe in their domain those tanks rumbled. Why didnt they rumble this time . They rumble because gorbachev was able to stay in power. Gorbachev had been removed by the hardliners the coup that finally occurred in august 1991 was a coup that was predicted by the american Intelligence Services for president bush the first week he was in office. He basically got the exact same memo every week that if you push too hard if you try to get the only person in the world who can keep reform going if you put him in a hotspot and give aid to his enemies that is going to undo everything that you might hope to do. I have to say we have to remember the Bush Administration and the Reagan Administration were not entirely clear that gorbachev himself was a true reformer. They knew that there were a lot of people who are much worse waiting to get in line after him. That u. S. Typical Sam Donaldson us question of questions. Which is why didnt the soviets rule in with their tanks . As it happens in a conversation with mike reagan i asked gorbachev that question. He said you must understand that Ronald Reagan and i share the same christian ethics. I said what . To the translator he said im a good communist but fundamentally we shared christian ethics. I simply was not going to open fire on innocent human beings. There you have thats the ultimate failure of the soviet project they had not created a new soviet which he had nicole gorbachev was an old russian. Formed by the judeochristian outlook on life. Thats why the tanks didnt role. Peter robinson, jeffrey engel, thank you so much. [applause] weve already heard and i think its true that the leaders of the free world had no idea that day that the wall was going to come down. President George Herbert walker bush and Margaret Thatcher and Michael Gorbachev so what happened had the white house here when the word came how to number 41 George Herbert walker bush react and how to reporters react to what was happening in the president s reaction . Heres a bit of what happened in the oval office when president bush came out to discuss this situation. Lets watch a [pause for clip] [inaudible]. Here with the secretary of state and security advisor. I am pleased with this development. Statement. [inaudible conversation] we have a total access with some certainty that we would give it can serious consideration. I say what is truly open borders, it is hard to predict how monday you try to lay. And so is the dynamic development. We just have to wait and see. Our relationship with the federal republic is that we would want to have help if it was need it. Good job in handling those who have proceeded this election. [inaudible conversation] screaming i dont say any single if it would be at the end of what you might call that, clearly this is the long way from harsh days iron curtain days. A long way from that. [inaudible conversation] i say you have to see what you mean by that. It seems to me that certainly that listening up in terms of travel, encourage with the it is a very Good Development. Our objective is all entries. I would see yes. Gorbachev talks about a common home. [inaudible conversation] you dont say he related. Am wondering what you are thinking. I am very pleased and ive been a place with a lot of brother developments. As i told you, i say the United States part of this which has brought related to this development particularly if it was handled in a proper fashion and some that will suggest more flamboyant courses of action i say handling this with allies, and this dynamic change, try to help as Development Takes place and try to enhance the reform both political and economics the fact that is not bubbling over, maybe its a long towards evening, i feel very good about this. [inaudible conversation] we said differently, we said youre up and trade in, and you see that is in line to go and what is man in society, clearly, abetted the message that mr. Gorbachev would understand, he said that nunnally and eastern youre up, but inside of the soviet union. For these developments took place, rapid change and eastern youre up that weve been talking about that just before yall came in here. We were talking about the gorbachev, meeting. In one of the things that we have discussed, is change. Joining us today distinguish panel to talk about the day in washington, beginning if you spot them at the end of the video, has standing against the wall behind secretary baker as president bush talks. Marlin fitzwater, right here who served both by the reagan [applause] and George Herbert worker bush and along running a secretary in our country. Somehow i must see, and i see it admiringly. You know how to handle the press. Welcome. It is written four books about his experiences in the white house. Etiquette the title of one of them. Call the briefing. Bush and reagan. Pam and helen. A decade with in the press. Welcome marlin. With this also is to reporters. I wasnt there. I let that beat. To reporters who are on that and for monday years, jane gibbons went down to the White House Press room and six president s when they were in office in fulltime there are three of them. Ronald reagan, george bush and bill clinton. I got from wikipedia. Gina couldnt remember. Now paired in america correct me if i need to. Peter gone the dave it was a mutual radio, but then went on to a 20 year career with cbs 2 news. Peter is covered every president from jimmy carter to barack obama. Welcome to both of you. [applause] marlin, it was like a bombshell, you didnt know. President bush and no. And he the news and what happened. Can use the podium. You may indeed. But i get it back. You can to have a back credulity to accident. Well, so dancing with the stars. [laughter] but i do say sam and the group for having me here and go through this. Ask them go through the president s afternoon when he was first informed. About the fall of the wall. And so i wanted to just have this brief personal, i want to thank the panel before us, who filled us in on the list before the wall came down. He gave us a good background to consider what happened during that afternoon. I would just see that inside of the white house, there were no sirens and no announcements of change. Except for the relentless taking of the wire Service Machine that theyve maintained in the National Security council room in the mc staff, that the first notice of everything they reported that the writers had a story coming out from berlin about the wall. And then a kawhi of it to my deputy roman, and he came rushing into my office and said we have a story can be a better take look at it. I did immediately horse. In the National Security Council Staff and stabbed confidential on the top of it. I said i can this be. Its going to every Radio Station newspaper in the world and only an american when we stamp that confidential. But in any case i said immediately im going to go to the oval office. So i took it in to talk to the president and the secretary ushered me and and cities in the study which is the little off of the oval. And with throne would back to the study was working at a desk there. I just handed him the wire service story. That went out a comment. And he read it, he started reading it, the reaction was very pensive. He wanted to kind of take it all in this was a busy day for him in the white house because we were having a state visit from the president of the philippines. And it already done the speech on the south grounds in a meeting with her and her team. He was preparing for another afternoon of meetings in a state dinner that night. And this took everybody by surprise and clearly was going to reschedule monday things during the day. The first thing he did was look at a factory with the article he said, i need general scowcroft, bobbys was a deputy National Security advisor and secretary baker. The three were called and came over to the oval office immediately. So the four of us were there talking about it in the present turned on his television and he could see the cnn was recording the story and this was so embryonic and some chipping at the wall the fellow the hemorrhages was up there working but beyond that, it was nothing clear that theyre going to be able to take down the entire edifice. But the story was there. It was on cnn at the time, it was the cable news. About that time the president was starting to have some questions from secretary baker and the others there about what they knew about it and what happened and so forth. Msa at that. I recall the book by richard ben cramer, some of you remember him, he was a reporter who code for 88 campaign of president bush. Here are a great book called what it takes. It was really kind of a profile of the candidates. In it he describes president bush as being a thoughtful guy and when he met an uncomfortable situation that he wasnt certain about and a tendency to slumped down in his chair. Glancing up phenomena men a number of times with president bush and i looked over and noticed he was on his way down. [laughter] and wind back and going out, he would lean back. I suggested that we put out a statement the press was all over upstairs and they were very excited about this. I thought he need it some kind of statement they gave context to this for the American People. He said well, im not going to give a press conference. And he says for the mark theres not going to be at dancing the wall marlin. And i took that a pretty personal direction. He did say about it some more and he said okay, i agree. We will do something. I want to do it informally. And i suggested will when we just bring the whole its always available to come into the office. Bring them into the ammonia could sit at your desk, which is the greatest symbol of authority that america has. And talk to them and about it and he said what you want to see. So we took a little time to kind of give himself rehearsal, im concerned about the reaction of the soviet union we dont always going to be and we dont know whether theyre going to react against this militarily or exactly what they will have to see. Secondly, the of the future to say about. German unification and the status of the captive nations and what happens the soviet bloc countries and see so there is a lot of futures that we have a lot to work out. With present forfeiture, and all that took place in about 30 minutes. We brought in the pool and the presence and when he wanted to this nice anytime before 6 00 oclock and at that time you could get on the evening news at that hour. And he said, just lets do it now. This is typical of the president bush when he first hired me he said im going to run a different kind of press operation and i want to go in the Briefing Room anytime i want to day or night. And talk to the press if i say it is necessary. I said right on. Works for me. And he said i dont want to do anything east room shows. I see good for me is it too. Is it will all do one. So did the first one and that he never did it again. So this was in the mold on the way he like to pursue issues with the press. When the president came in he made the statement where he said exactly that this was a Good Development but is the very measuring statement and everyone could tell it was. In the first question was about how to what the president expected and then there were a lot of questions about the coming down of the iron curtain. In the future of the warsaw pact. The present took all the questions but the question number seven, came from leslie stahl, cbs 2 news correspondent who was in the pool. The press will now generally represents the various proponents of the news media and magazines and newspapers and television, radio and a few others. We usually about 15 people. One networking that networks cameras covered as well. So leslie was a correspondent assigned. With cbs 2 to the pool that day. And she said, this is sort of a great victory for our side in this eastwest battle. But dont you, you now seem very elated. In her office of course i told her about the excitement that was going on around the country and also told her that congressman gephardt, was staying that they should be celebrating this is that the leader mitchell, and suggested that the president should be going to berlin. And join in the celebration over there. So she was prepared to follow up with a question the moralist or less came out of her discussion. Marlin, you are prepared to tell us why president bush did that but i wanted to right now just for moment, hold everything, eugene and peter. What you say of leslies question. And what did you say of bushs general reaction. Back in the press room, listening to the q a, trying to compose a story breaking news story about the president s reaction to this very development. It is very difficult to do because there were declarations and we people of the news business, start to get ahead artists of the consequences. I say a secretary baker said, the president just wouldnt, it would make a great story if you wouldve gotten out into the rose garden and did cartwheels or something it would been a wonderful domestic policy for him. Terrible domestic politics for which of you mightve been on pressure to lower the tanks. Was in the pool that day, when the microphone. I also have to see i was fortunate sam, of a number of visits with president bush thanks to Eugene Becker who was here. Help clear the way for that. And we chatted in his office in houston and at the apartment over the library and we chatted at walkers. In the court. In our final visit, just months before we sadly see goodbye to him, we had a poignant chat about this partially about this, in his office at walkers. I always wanted to tell them salmon everyone how i felt sort of naively journalistically disappointed and we let the oval office that day. I told them i was disappointed that they serve, and i have to admit it to you. Denise and white. Really why. Listen well always looking for that 50 quote, assembly is going to make the story either in print or on the air and says is going to be my last chance to talk to bump up that. But i told him before i returned my Little Office in the baseman of the white house that i realized, that exactly what it was that he was trying not to deal now is to antagonize the soviet union to make things difficult for macau jewel gorbachev, sue make this really was the beginning of the end of the soviet union i say the president George Herbert walker bush doesnt get enough credit for this. The first time in history. It was a great empire has disintegrated that went out bloodshed. And i say is subdued reaction to what happened that day, is a lot to do with how it turned out. She accuse oh man for the moment none on how monday times well either the staff of those following him, said we heard him see, you my mother always told me dont be a braggadocio. That was the last thing that he wanted to be that day was to be a braggadocio and secretary baker said, and his funeral and wrote down that day, when we are at the national cathedral, he said the president bush understood that you ability towards not humiliation of a fallen adversary was the best path. [applause] screaming im coming back to the last word but could see even run the standalone time before you buy the white house, you knew how to handle things in the presentation was part of it. Princes the president and been the kawhi grows when the sun comes up and says is his name. Weve actually seen at press but the point is, [laughter] over you kind of afraid the loki, for all of the good reasons, might still not to him that much good with the reelection campaigns. Seven day. What he actually said after leslie asked the question was i am not an emotional kind of guy. And this of course, with the news carried. But as sometimes happens in these situations, is the accidental question that is the best. In the best of answers on this is kind of a personal question and making it all the news, just served to emphasize again the attitude that he wanted to take and he didnt want to poke gorbachev in the eye. Just one month later actually three weeks later, we were in malta with the first meeting following all of this in the first thing he did was thank him for not dancing on the wall. So he was right in anticipating how the soviets would react. The president was asked to that time if he could give the first leadoff presentation in wellton because he wasnt sure how gorbachev was reacting to the wall and all of the events of the day and he wanted to be sure that before they start at these meetings, the gorbachev card with United States position was going to be. And when he did was present the 17 part program of economic help that the United States was going to give to soviet union to help bring them into the world economy. She met monica sucking out only because the clock and la me the time has expired. It was expiring. Just one thing. Please i will not ever stay on anyway. Have i ever in the Briefing Room studying your way. Can you believe we used to have to do this every day. Anyway, i just want to see gorbachev his response at the end of this presentation was planned, was to look at the floor and hush the audience look up at the table looked at the president the eye and see, that is exactly what i wanted to hear. And from there on, there is a dramatic change in the eastwest relations we can talk about later. So i say you marlin. [applause] and peter and jean. Thank you thank you. I wish we had all day. Because i wouldve liked to have heard about that in the hurricane was on in the mediterranean. Going to see very quickly, when i am is when i have pleasure to speak to journalism students, and i asked who their favorite press secretary. Harry has the gold second the Gold Standard [applause] Gold Standard for press secretary. It is very easy, standing him at the podium, he turns red. The two secretaries, there are two summer mouthpieces and some that are asked to repeat tweets and secretaries that we knew were trusted Communications Advisors could access to the business we covered in this man had both. It is a Communications Advisor [applause] and a trusted advisor to president bush and her new but at the lid of would be going upstairs on the oval office and consulting with. And i would add, and we all agree on this. There marlin, smiled and did all of that and and served is present well. He never lied. Press secretary, must not do is live. Because when they liked, they betray us all. And this man never did. [applause] tell us about your book. It is all about. What happens we do put pressure on the parting gift stop him. [laughter] the latest book. I just finished the book and tims going to give me the opportunity to promote it. Unlike the calm before the sto storm. Smith white house, be kind enough to give the globe in the back about the book. It also focuses on the president and desert storm and ended i also have about gorbachev his of the president asking bump up capitalism and democracy and how it works. And when i heard that, it was on the helicopter coming back from kemp david. And he says that he my house here. I monday banks work, as a realtor do. That is when we offers new he was really interested in a different kind of system for the soviet union. Thank you very much. [applause] screaming this in the family, the press and all that. Bill got along. We salvage each brother in the press room. [laughter] net it is time to turn to the expertise of one of the world his leading International Affairs schools. In one of our cosponsors, of this morning his program. And of course they provided a wonderful if it. The wall school of Foreign Service, here at Georgetown University. With this year is celebrating its centennial. Another schools dean, doctor joel devlin, doctor hellman, [applause] the programs is is your start. [applause] thank you very much sam. Let me welcome you here on this beautiful glorious day an important day. On behalf of the School Foreign service Georgetown University, and her bmw german, european studies. Let me say also, our sponsors for this if it. The georgia Barbara Bush Foundation, Reagan Institute and Atlantic Council. History is punctuated by critical moments. Grievance open up and possibilities for fundamental change in the world. That these critical moments, the importance of leadership and diplomacy of intelligence and careful analysis become essential to shaping outcomes. And these are then moments that are the essence of what we do here at the School Foreign service and what we have been doing now for a hundred years and the Oldest School of Foreign Service in International Affairs and United States out is in the spirit that i am excited that we have a chance to look into the history of such a critical and global moment and now we have a chance to pivot on the current importance and where its in the fall of the berlin wall where has that lift us. In critical issues, of the shape of the world we are going forward. For that i am please to have a wonderful panel of experts to talk through those issues. Start by introducing eric aleman, his distinguished practitioner in residence at size a career Foreign Service officer who held key positions at the u. S. Embassy in moscow and handling soviet affairs at the pentagon and during the time of the berlin wall. He went on to investor ships in turkey and finland individually began on secretary of defense for policy. Welcome. [applause] next we have charles caption, is the professor of International Affairs. Your defenses in the department of government as well as the senior fellow at the council and foreign relations. He served as as a special assistant to the president and senior director for European Affairs and the staff of the National Security council and the Obama Administration and held senior positions at the Statement Department of planning staff. Welcome. [applause] and finally we have paula, who first and foremost is the graduate of the School Foreign service. And indeed, a distinguished expert on eastern youre up in the forum of soviet union as a diplomat she served five u. S. Business democrat and republican. She was at the nmc covering soviet in these it affairs during the fall of the berlin wall and notably she rose to an extended state his undersecretary of state of democracy and global affairs. Of course she is the professor here and are masters of the science of Foreign Service program and a member of a board that the fss. Im going over to the panel will have some time for discussion among ourselves. And then were going to go to you, the audience for questions on this panel and some of the things you heard earlier. Them again. We talk a lot about the history and the Lessons Learned from the if it. James baker started to give us some sense of what he felt the Lessons Learned from the if it. Obviously, theres been a lot of discussion about the triumph of diplomacy and the importance of leadership and how the fall of the berlin wall was handled. How we responded to a critical moment in which change in the global water was possible. What lessons do you take now as you say about Foreign Policy now in the current moment, from that experience. Maybe we can start with the pilot. Thank you and i like to say for institutions for hosting this. This is just in the critical moment in opportunity to reflect on truly what is and was a most, significant appointed in history. Secretary baker, i say well articulated key points but let me mention a few that i say of you also need to be tossed in the mix. First i would start that there should be a lesson of optimism. That we can continue actually make a difference and have an impact. In those places and change a state of call and in those places where we may not always say that we can continue. So there is a lesson of optimism that a thinker undergirds all of this. There is also i say the crucial fact that here there was a kind of supposition of a lack of change that could take place. In brother words, that totalitarian regime are not necessarily vulnerable and i say what we witnessed not only with the fall of the wall but the whole sequencing of events, that really highlighted that there is very much great vulnerability and here the power of ideas, can really make the difference. The moral narrative. The fact that fundamental human freedoms, cannot be buried or blocked by any kind of wall or barrier. I say the consistency of diplomatic approach combined with all of the elements that the secretary and baker had mentioned about American Leadership and the importance of our allies in the importance of also the International Support that also range through this. He mentioned something that i dont want to be lift hillside and then as he mentioned the domestic component. And i say he is quite right that when i say back and reflect the period of the cold war, the fact that there was also the domestic element of bipartisanship and that kind of support then undergirded Foreign Policy. Which also provided us with a very strong and resolute backbone. I guess finally, he would just see that in some way mentioned it earlier some ideas matter. And here in the height of the cold war, i mean, it was between the issues of freedom and fundamental freedoms and democracy, and against communism as a secretary articulated. And in this, there is the ideological battle and we are very consistent in laying down markers as to what we stood for. Charlie. Quickly points picking up on some of the things apologists. The first would be to see that even though i agree completely with what we have heard this morning about the importance of the states people and Foreign Policy and engagement, lets keep in mind that in monday respects, the end of the cold war was about history running away from statesmen. Not the opposite. That is to see, this soviet union fell apart because gorbachev tried to reform it and lost control. And what we ended up with was just what paula mentioned was the kind of flowering of the human spirit. The overthrow of the structures of the soviet union, and then, gorbachev and reagan and George Hw Bush and anothers accepted and did a remarkable job of controlling the after matters. His stunning the cold war came to an end that went out war. Most transitions of that sort are usually very bloodied. But it was about people power. It was grassroots. And when i was a student in the 1980s, went to poland after the position of martial law, and i didnt see the end of the cold war coming any more than anyone else. But i saw a clear sign that the live was now in the street. When i went to meet people like adam neff take others, they said, i want to meet you in the lobby of the Main International hotel. And they would wave at the security people that were monitoring us. And that was kind of, you know it was going to come up in the soviet union was going to collapse and to me it is keeping an eye on that people power and i would see that theres an important lesson for us today in that the same thing is happening today but the spirit that we are seeing different, we need to keep in mind mr. Antoine, and mr. Ormonde, mr. Kentucky ski, mr. Trump, they are symptoms as much as causes. They are responding to political currents. We need to understand why people his attitudes are now going that way rather than that way. And figure out what is going on. Second. Would be to highlight something others have said today that is the importance of the u. S. I am probably more pro european than most people in the city. I say the European Union is one of the great accomplishments of our times. It is a revolutionary change you wrote but it still needs our help. I say it was Margaret Thatcher who said i like germany so much that i always hope that there were two of them. [laughter] and i dont know weather germany would be united, had it not been for the u. S. I look at youre up today, and its hanging in there. But the brits are leaving and no one is home in berlin, micron, is trying but it is tough and they still need our help. Final. Again one that is come out today is the importance of a certain kind of american health. And that is what we call liberal internationalists. The marriage of partnership. It took a long time for americans to discover that. We tried in 1898, it was mostly is it too much power and we try to 1917, and is is it too much partnership and idealism, and then finally, fdr comes along and puts this two together. And i say that reagan and bush, did a great job of combining those two. Theyre nestling. And thats in part because as paula said, the bipartisan compact behind that marriage of power and partnership, is coming undone. It is leading to a very different kind of american engagement in the world. We all need to get our arms around and understand. Say he was going to be here greatly on this panel. With paula and charlie. Off of i have to confess, i find myself slightly disoriented to be a charlies lift. [laughter] i like you there. And is also great to be part of this if it commemorating a hugely important if it in modern history enemy part of this with so monday great people including any card who was chief of staff when i was working in the bush 43 administration and its really great to be part of this. I guess the thing that i take away most particulate with all of the discussion and the diplomacy and having its been devoted 30 years of my life to the Foreign Service as an institution, is that something that i learned from our early mentors and diplomacy who said dont get vertigo. Because there are ups and downs and you cannot allow yourself to be thrown off by the momentary highs from an if it like the fall of the wall. Because off of we frequently title diplomatic agreements over the final act of this or that, there are no lilacs and diplomacy. You are in the business of managing problems and managing adjudication of National Differences by nonmilitary means. All military ends are important to it. And whatever problems you say youve solved, demeanor pushed off to face him another day or youve created some problem along this way they are going to have to solve in the future or youve allowed new problems to arise the imputed to june before and now you will have to solve it. So very quickly on the heels of this or that that we are commemorating today. We found ourselves for instance, dealing with problems really of the world war two, he sees me world war i settlement. Because we found ourselves dealing with the breakdown of the former yugoslavia and because of the war in iraq, we found ourselves dealing with middle east and was created by the world war i settlement. So here we were thinking we have solved the problems that had been created by World War Ii Holding find yourselves re engaging with the problems that had been created by world war one. And then just pick up i say, some comments that paula and charlie made. I say it is very important particularly as we consider some of the totalitarian regimes, that we are dealing with today, to remember that the reason we were able to get to the point of the wall coming down, was as secretary baker said, we had bipartisan support for a number of years for the policy of containment but towards the end, when administrations that made it a point to of course the soviet unions to confront what i mightve called earlier, but of my life, and tape and take those nice steak and contradictions that the system was based on. And only when that happened, were we able to of course gorbachev and his colleagues to make a series of choices that lead as charlie said to the process getting out of their control. In the second one i would make looking forward from today, is the problem we were wrestling with in those years and i started actually the Carter Administration and the ford service but in the Carter Reagan and Bush Administration was a threat to democracy largely from the lift. And today and as charlie was staying, the threat to democracy is largely on the right. And from populace, is the global problem but is particularly acute in youre up and in eastern and central youre up, what is become particular problem. We can talk about some of the reasons for that. In one of the things i say that was essential to u. S. Success, and the cold war, was the role of liberal intake on the muniz of weve god in the fact that the centerleft in the United States, and agreed with the centerright that certain parties you wrote were beyond the pale, because they had no allegiance to foreign government. And they took assistance from the foreign government. And they are beyond the pale because they wouldnt agree to abide by the rules of democracy if it actually won an election. And the centerleft then said that is unacceptable. You cant in the International Liberal Order that we are creating, if you go down that path. I say its incumbent on those of us who self identify as on the centerright today. To take the same attitude to these members that are arising thats challenging norms, and habits of democracy, and the taking assistance from foreign powers. Let me ask you spec let me ask you and falling with that. Look the fall of the berlin wall was tremendous euphoria. The democratic project was widely accepted by the european unification was going to bring eastern youre up into the fold of the nations and yet as you now. Out, we are starting to see hungary and poland and Czech Republic and in parts of the foreign east germany, were seeing that sort of move to the right of populism. It is surprising because the economic advantages for the integrations of youre up have been tremendous and overwhelming even and yet there is still this despair. We have russia coming up rearing up the cold war competition and seems to be regenerating. Three years on, this fall of the berlin wall that was meant to really reintegrate and bring into the family of nation, former arrivals, it fraying at the edges to put it mildly from all sides. What are the applications of that and why did we not understand and foot did we miss when we thought that the euphoria after the fall of where we would get to at this time. I was going to pick out a couple of issues that i say of head bearing on these developments in the first one is, the lack of reform of the European Union. I say that out primarily because i hear constantly, those from Central Eastern youre up talk about how they have been part of the eeo but not really ever integrated. And of our basic issues and issues that have economic bearing to the respective countries. I say that part of this is interrelated with the way in which the eu has been operating and i say there is a need for reform and i say theres a need for greater flexibility. There is another component to the sum that follow closely the Political Trends have said that when particularly the centerleft as you are mentioning wearing power in place that there couldve been more inclusive approach is taken. And maybe more coalition oriented policy. There were certain lines that were drone and so then, when the centerleft, had not produced economically and centerright and the writers came in, that there wasnt this kind of feeling of camaraderie are Coalition Building enemy and a third in the last it is interesting, that we equate of course unification of germany with the fall of the wall and also we say about the end of the cold war. And it is interesting now this time when people talk about youre up and where things are going, russia also is large again, in terms of what is agenda is and there have also been concerns about that. Not the causal relationship with the question but i say it is also important to put that on the table. Because the venue, has brought the one that was in the feeling was that the one at the end of the fall of the wall, and the end of the cold war. To make charlie do you agree. I say i would broaden the lives a little bit in the sense that it is right across the western world that the populist are thriving. I say what is happening here and in western youre up is pretty similar. Its a combination of economics and security and identity politics. Namely in response to immigration that is created a toxic brew and i say that the u. S. And the uk, are particularly hardhit because we have two party democracies. And so youve got a lot of angry people out there and they really have two places to go. The democrats and republicans here and they have for the parties to the lift and right and the centerleft in the centerright and eric was talking about is being depopulated. The same thing is happening in the uk. Continental youre up is the little bit better is there angry people have brother places to go. Alternatives for germany, the league, the national rally, and centerleft and centerright are losing market shares but they are still in the center and generally in power. I say once we talk about eastern youre up it is a different kettle of fish. Their economy is generally been doing well and they dont have any immigrants. So the hell is going on there. And i say that it is more about the success in some ways of these countries and the degree to which more conservative rural religious segment of society has been politically empowered. The chain can see has done and irvine has done it and they have manipulated the antiimmigrant sentiment particularly in east and central youre up. Two great political effect and quite blatantly, and has very racist overtones. In his work. I have to see especially when we say back to the post cold war era, it is quite distressing to me how susceptible our populations have been to this kind of anti and racist narrative. Simple truth is, it is working. I say it is been, that these are really marvelous footnotes what paula and charlie were seeing. Spin and unequaled distributional games economically for globalization, from a variety of holidays, that have led to a sense that a large group in various countries have been lift out. They been lift out within an elite has been able to benefit from and in the european context, i say that is been exasperated by the fact that the project for some time. Has had a huge disconnect between the were also based multilingual elite that has benefited from it and from the populations at large and has brought just in central and eastern youre up, you see it in france for instance, as well and you see it in the history of various referenda on their treaties, where the principle of democracy has been to some degree subverted by the requirement that we vote on this until you get it right. By having multiple referenda that have been rejected by national publics. So i say there has been a disconnect that is affected things. Then i would just to add to it, to a charlie said about migration, it is not that theres been for there has been couple of ways of this and one was the fear of migration into western youre up by the newly learned new members of the eu because of freedom of movement. Which created problems in central and western youre up within the failure of ultimately to deal with both libya and syria and set up a new wave of migration both in africa and in the middle east is made, actual migration but fear of migration astrologist suggested. Student blood going to ask the audience members would like to answered your questions to start lining up at this microphone here. Im also going to ask Sam Donaldson if he would come back out again and if anybody was asked questions about some of the earlier things but while we are running up, if i could just for a lightning round, have a question regarding something that james baker said. He talked about the fraying alliances between the United States and youre up and he talked about his discussion with the german ambassador. What you say the possibilities are for the rubber fan snapping back in a new administration of our relationship with our alliances and the transatlantic relation in general. Can stem back or some real permanent damage done in the 30 years that we have built in of course at alliance relationship. Just the thoughts about the possibility of it moving back. Briefly, im not sure that i would in all cases agree with that premise. Let me give an example of nato, all administrations have tried to get nato to go with burden sharing. And the approach was very hardhitting one. My views actually i say that nato has moved forward in a very already important in subsidence direction. There may be differences but the agenda has been a very tough and forwardlooking one. I will as a said, not necessarily agree with the premise of the question. I agree with the premise of the question. [laughter] and i say that a lot of damage has been done but i agree with paula that there is a resilience to the transatlantic relationship which we have seen here in washington. Congress invited the secretarygeneral for the first time in history. To give a joint address and we look at Public Opinion in support of the alliance, its exactly where it was on obama. In 7576 percent positive. The thing that worries me is our allies, are they over time going to get sick of us. Are they going to question our reliability. Are they going to see us go from here to there and back and then save this country doesnt know which end is up. And i say that is starting to happen does that mean were going to walk away from us know because there is no alternative but i do say that is going to take a lot of repair work once we get over the next hump. I say that there is has been damage done over the last two presidencies. I say a lot of the rhetoric about bert ensuring that we have heard from the Current Administration we heard from the print previous resident in his interviews with Jeffrey Goldberg and i say there was already some building concern about it and allied capitals before the Current Administration committed this while the efforts to lose nato spinning. Before it began before the Current Administration came in. They get some credit but all of the credit for that in my view. Im actually more concerned about the damage that is been done inside of the United States government and if you are going to conduct a policy you have to have a diplomatic instrument was to conduct it. And i say there been very serious and lasting damage to the Foreign Service and i say were going to find out more about that in the coming weeks and i would see that it is very easy to diminish the capabilities in that area and it takes quite a long time to actually build the backup and i would see the same with regard to interagency processes. Its not, is like muscle memory, if he lives in over a four year. It doesnt just come back or eight year period, it doesnt just come back and sent back to what it was was. His son thank you. Soon it take questions from the audience. [applause] bring your questions in the forum of a question. Well take a few of them and tell me who you would like to address into it will keep the conversation going please. Condo. [inaudible conversation] [inaudible conversation] can i ask you a question please. Just a question. [inaudible conversation] [inaudible conversation] [inaudible conversation] thank you thank you very much. Next question please. Thank you to our families and the graduate students here and i want to know, we could take any lessons from our panel, especially our students, and apply it to brother parts of the world and i am thinking particularly,. [inaudible conversation] thank you. Screaming another question please. Thank you everyone being here. This is to the United States,. [inaudible conversation] microphone echoing. [inaudible conversation] russia and china, where we have a new space thing happening right now. I would like your opinion on that. I say the hong kong question. Stewart cant do that a footnote of the hong kong question. My answered is yes. [laughter] on that, i say there are a lot of lessons and applications to what is happening in hong kong and i was in australia and the australians are very engaged in this. And they said that the United States and what it actually our approach, not publicly but behind the scenes and helping the demonstrations taking place. Excellent question. With regards to space and United States and russia, you focus on a question that is key in Foreign Policy. Theres been a lot of change regarding what the agenda is. Definitely i say it is agreed by those in the Foreign Policy communities does bipartisanship around the fact that we are being challenged by china and were being challenged by russia. In strategic competition. So to expand question to not just russia but also try to in this case. This is called the new frontier. There are issues of cyber and of Artificial Intelligence and space and when. [inaudible conversation] digital, in which there hasnt been the kinds of focus that needs to be in terms of our preparedness and our own investment in those those areas. Interestingly enough, in recent days i say would Scott Morrison and the Prime Minister of australia it was there, he contributed rather significantly to our program. This is become in space, and this is become a top agenda item of this administration. Personally, i say it is important and i say he raises a key issue in these are topics that are now part of the course discourse of what and how security and National Security is defined. Its not traditional warfare of the past. Eric. Spak charlie and i were talking about arise of regimes politician on it as well, and because of that vent on the moon in the wake of some of, the dashed hopes after the arab spring, is been a lot of talk about the democratic recession. This is the real phenomenon this been documented by freedom house. And others. Having said that, i say that is led a lot of people to conclude that democracy and promotion and advocating for human rights broadly informed policy is sort of palisade we shouldnt really do it anymore. He is the whenever it cares about anymore and i say whats going on in hong kong and moscow, was going on in sudan and various brother countries is actually an indication that people are having the debate are largely ones were already enjoying the benefit of democracy has brought going on in those places where people are being denied the democracy and i say that if either president present bush were here today, to be wanting us to encourage was been going on and con hung hong kong and in moscow. Two quick comments on hong kong. China. In their lesson is, were not going to let that happen to us. And in my mind, this one of the reasons that she is tightening things that im kind of surprised he hasnt gone into hong kong in a more aggressive way. I am with eric on democracy promotion, but i say that we have to do it federally and patiently. Weve got it right during the cold war. We outwitted them and they collapse from within and since the end of the cold war, i say we bit off more than we can chew. We were trying to turn iraq and afghanistan into ohio. Its not gone well. We would ignores that and deal with them without trying to impose on them but somehow recognize that they are in a stronger position. See nick thank you. I was wondering what do you think the young generation can do to reaffirm order and the democratic zabul. Spent one last one, quick. Thanks. I have a personal relationship as my father came to uk and you could say from russia with love. Theres a general theme here that you require the u. S. As input and i think i get my sense around what should be the United States grand strategy because you had a very clear one during the cold war. You dont i think to have as clearcut and id like your opinion. Senate im going to start with charlie because he teaches a course on grand strategy and then well get to some of the other questions. I think the top priority when it comes to grand strategy is to get our own house in order because if the liberal anchor of the International System comes unglued which it might. We are kind of in the midst of that potentiality right now. Managing Global Change in the century is going to be very very difficult and the Global Distribution of power is shifting rapidly. Atlantic community used to be about 80 of gdp and are now down below 50 and we continued to shrink. I would say the first, second and third, sixth and seventh priority is to make sure the liberal democratic wall gets its mojo back and the question what we do, get back to us. Get active, get political. Im struck by the degree to which this country and everywhere else yes there are checks and balances but they dont seem to work as well as we thought they would and their main recourse is the ballot box. Get active. I would agree with that by the way and in my class here at georgetown im delighted every single student is going into the Foreign Service. They are going into the Diplomatic Court but also theres one student who is running for state legislature in michigan. I have to say we were very impressed so get active. Thats our answer to you. On grand strategy might view as i think the tenants of her overall foreignpolicy have to be focused on the strategic competition of a challenge posed by. [speaking russian] posed by china significantly. Now and in the future. As part of that is charlie said the moral narratives in other words the order matters. There has been a complacency and theres a real need for coming forward in ensuring that long narrative through the International Order is in fact maintained because its being challenged by china and by russia so we have to have that at the forefront of our framework of action. I completely associate myself with my colleagues. So Public Service and i encourage everyone at the school of Foreign Service to think about the problems i described earlier in the state department has an opportunity. On the grand strategy point i agree largely with what paul and charlie have said that i would have this. I think theres going you need to be some serious thought on both sides of the aisle about what it takes for United States to play the role in the world if we play to start since 1945. That does mean getting our in order to getting our house in order means the longterm budget of the cbo that comes out every year means that we have to get a handle on the entitlement problem. Entitlement is what is driving longterm debt problem. Its not the defense budget. I think my friends on the left need to understand that and some of my friends on the right think its just another budget account that should be cut like all the others. George kennan gave a lecture after he wrote in the telegram in 1946 that i remind my Foreign Service colleagues of up all the time. You have no idea how much more cooperative and collegiate diplomacy is if you have a little quiet power in the background and thats what i think we should remember as we think about diplomacy going forward. Yes we talk of what to do now id get the last word on this panel. Sam donaldson given what he has seen his career and experience gets the last word is that it be careful been because when you give me i get the bit there and i will run off but i will try not to dip in the road offense is more difficult than when i was operating here in washington and you know the difficulties. I dont have to go through them that the press continues to do what i thought was the fundamental purpose of whether electronic or. Or whatever. To uncover what you consider to be the facts very elusive thing sometimes and bring them to the American People. Our democracy depends on the public weighing in and getting the public to weigh in is very hard today. Its not just hard getting the facts, its hard convincing the public that they ought to pay attention. When i first started in this town there were three networks. You have to watch us. You had no vcrs and you couldnt watch it, on the internet. Now the kids get their information from facebook and tweets and whatever and there are so many access points. Its very difficult but i think the thing to impress on people is, excuse me for being partisan we are not the American Peoples enemy. We are not the enemy. We are enemies, the enemies of things are not true. How to get you to watch, this audience have no problem i say. Watch tom brokaw but you will watch and you will read it how to get people who may have never left the state. Certainly their passports available and even those that require us to go to canada and mexico with a passport before 2005. You didnt have to have that. Compared to other countries in the world not just europe but other places how do we get americans to travel . How do we get them to get their information by looking at it reading about a guess but looking at it and seeing it. Mr. Limbaugh may be of dig at first but there are other sources. So the problem with the press today is to do its job. If someone says you cant come to the white house according to come to the white house. He said they wont tell you anything. You have to be there in order to receive it if they do and if they dont its not an individual loss of reporters that a loss for truth and finding out whats going on. I would encourage everybody in the end people dont have a problem. Those who do are activists and i dont think people at this university have a problem with where to get their news what to read and how to process it. If any of you can come up with an idea because you have to watch this. You have to read this. No, thats the worst way to get any one to watch anything on television. It gives people to get interested in the facts and news organizations that reveal the facts. Please see me. I will nominate you for the nobel prize. Thank you very much sam. [applause] let me end by first of all think in our panelists for an interesting discussion. Thank you Sam Donaldson and let me turn the microphone over for the final remarks to roger zach heim the executive director of the Reagan Institute. Thank you so much and everybody please join me in thanking all the panelists. [applause] of course thank you tour friends at the george and Barbara Bush Foundation predicting todays event and im sure you would agree was a perfect First Partnership for the Bush Foundation the Reagan Institute and looking forward to more collaboration in the future and of course thank you to the Atlanta Council matt hellman and the incomparable Sam Donaldson. Thank you so much. [applause] a few more comments and well close this out. The day the berlin wall fell and i was a kid at the time watching this on the tv and my parents living room sams abc news colleagues Peter Jennings described the developments as kopech perhaps the most important announcement made essentially since the world within two of world war ii in berkeley since the wall went up in 1961 on that day americans knew they were watching history. We also remembered me disgusted today president reagans speech at the Brandenburg Gate and other defining moments on the path. But in june of 1987 it didnt seem that way at all. In fact it hardly made the news in america. It wasnt until the wall came down in 1989 that those four powerful words, tear down this wall truly a good around the world. Thats the nature of history. Sometimes you know you are witnessing it. Sometimes you only realize it years later. In looking back it all appears inevitable and we have that debate today. Not even president reagan or president bush knew when the wall would come down for how the cold war would end but they did know there was a cause worth fighting for. Back in 89 on that day that the wall fell president reagan joins Sam Donaldson live on the air from his home in california and this is a transcript so please dont correct me because we got the transcript service. The question was do you think it will come down soon impressive reagan responded i didnt know when it would come but i have to tell you i am and in eternal optimist. I believe with all my heart that it was in the future. And maybe that is the most important lesson today. Like president s reagan and bush we must always have faith that we can achieve a Brighter Future for freedom and human kind. Thank you all so much. [applause] thank you. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] sig good afternoon. Book him to the Washington Institute for near east policy. And after Matthew Leavitt and i have the pleasure of directing the institutes ran her program on counterterrorism and intelligence and im very very plea t