Transcripts For CSPAN2 Washington Journal John Limbert Stuart Eizenstat 20240713

Recapped American Foreign policy for the next hour and half on cspan his washington journal, those of you watching on cspan American History tv, we look back at the vets as they enfolded on november 4th, 1979, and from a canadian documentary, just look at how it all happened 40 years ago. Soon it just before 11 the attack began. They were over the balls, change the main gate was cut. This was filmed by a student. Being overrun. Motor group was behind the main gates. To the right was the chancellor, the operational hub leaves in house the sensitive mecommunication system. Every front doors had been bolted shut. Inside were 45 americans in runyon staff. The marine guards inside had teargas divide time. What is realized help wasnt coming, what were the chances Security Officers, outside to persuade the students to leave. The sheet staff retreated four by four and one american john and spoke went out to troy to save people. He is it too was me lately blindfolded and bound. The. Americans. Is the portion of a canadian documentary which will be seen on cspan merck in history to it later today want to look up to the table, former senior s advisory to present to jimmy carter and his new, book, president carter, the white house years. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me. And john negotiating with iran, wrestling with the ghost of history and i want to welcome you as well and a portion of you coming that documentary. Explain exactly what happened as you lift the embassy and went outside and then taken hostage. Personal thank you for having the program. As i mentioned in the documentary, those responsible for our safety, it was the host government the iranian government was very clear that they were not going to do anything. Or could not do anything. When i called over there, a recent secretary in the Prime Minister his office, and the first she said to me was what about those passports we suffered pieces are they ready. That was all they were worried about they were clearly not going to help. We were on our own party. Going up took the crown in retrospect was not a smart thing to do. In my Foreign Service career, is one of the least successful negotiations that i had. We didnt have a lot of choices for the priority was to make sure no onee got hurt. Because of somebody did, if they been bloodshed, and take my hat off to our marines here, to our marrying Security Guard here, if they had started shooting, they wouldve reacted very differently and i would be here probably today. So take those step back on the hostage began, in november 1979 but themb roots go back much moe before that. You are inside the carter house as the sun folded. How do we reach this. In november of 1979. Nearly had to go back to 1953. This was when a popularly elected Prime Minister of iran, was to deposed in coup, by the cia and British Intelligence in my six because he was going to nationalize the oil industry. This young shaw was put back on his fathers throne. From that time, 1979, bashaw was our man in the middle east. He was our principal ally. Republican and democratic president s had give him a shopping list. By the time we came in the office 11 halfbillion dollars around the World Military aid, half of it went to iran. They had some of our most sophisticated flames and arms. He was against the soviet union against in the cold war. A major cia station that was there right at the border of the soviet union. So he was also israels possible supplier of oil. He was swab debonair and beautiful wife, gorgeous palace and he seemed impregnable. No one who would have foreseen what we saw occurring here in november of 79, wouldve happened except when the shaw was forced to leave. When he was, there was earlier effort to get into the embassy in february 79 and in that instance, Ayatollah Khomeini and the leader of radical revolutions, Prime Minister and foreign minister, got the police to intervene and take the students out the receipt. So this was a repeat later that same year in the circumstances had dramatically changed by then. But you really have to go back to 1953 to understand the feeling in t iran that the shaw had been sort of imposed on the country. One last. You cant see that the shaw was sort of just a typical autocrat. He was very autocratic. He had a very tough Security Service that brutally went after any opposition but he was a reformer in monday ways. In a sort of white revolution as he called it to compete with the red revolution of communist and he empowered women didnt require them to wear the veils and discussed education troy to reform the landis system. And it says that in front of a very fundamentalist conservative society. Was diagnosed with cancer in late 1930s and all of history the put together in 2006, you wrote that you said the following. I was not privy to the exchanges that went on before the shot was admitted for the u. S. Because of his cancer. But what ive seen since in various documents that have been in public is the gross, was very clear, if you doha this, you are putting all of usg in danger. Jimmy carter himself, when he against his own better judgment decided to allow the shot to come in turn secretary state, along with ham german, chief of staff and press secretary and said quote. I do this, what hell going to advise me to do when i was his overrun and are people taken hostage. Is very clear. President carter, very smart man. He foresaw what was going to happen. Todid not want to admit shaw. As you mentioned he was our chief admission. They had worn him that this would have very serious consequences including the call the loss of the embassy. Somewhere around october 20th, then make the decision the Administration Made the decision for medical treatment, we are centrally,ll informed the messae to us was you are expendable. You are out there. Good luck investing in. Do the best you can. My students would ask me the same question. It seems so obvious, to them. I have asked people within the administration including investor enters, and others. This eyepiece events together, it was never discussed. And perhaps the reason was that the cold war calculations. That sounds strange staying this, now but iran was a key piece in the cold war game with the soviets. In the centerpiece of ourpi policies sense the 1940s, was to keep the soviets out of iran. In fact the coup of the 1953 coup, was just mentioned, was justified here in washington as an anti communist step. That would not be able to resist communist influence that went out. The administration looked at it and said what if we leave, we are abandoning 30 years of american policy resistance to the soviets were simply staying to the soviets okay, were gone. Here is around for you. Weather we are turning over iran to our enemies. So i say the problem was with the administration perhaps it could have his cake and eat it is it too. We can admit to shaw, and we can preserve this porthole or foothold in iran with his antisoviet goals. Is at a fair assessment. Is is, in my book a very candid about mistakes. This was the single worst intelligence failure in American History before or since in my opinion. The cia which had reinstalled the shaw 1953, and he was our key ally in the region, did not know that for five years he was secretly getting Cancer Treatment for incurable lipoma. They didnt realize that his Domestic Support rested on quicksand. They didntid appreciate that Ayatollah Khomeini, the leader of the radical revolution in exile outside of paris, that the deceptive ascending back stirring up a fundamentalist revolution. They didnt understand community himself. They didnt understand the domestic politics and orion. It is unforgivable and unacceptable intelligence and in my book by stan turner, who is ahead ci apologizes and we did not give the president the counterintelligence he need it. Why didnt he then withdrawal. In february when the first assault was made against the embassy, was repulsed. The government were able to repulse it. There wasnt an appreciation for the underlining conflict between the prodemocracy nationalist like those guys in the fundamentalist and what khomeini did steve, is he used john and the hostages is political bonds. To solidify his support and push out the democratic nationalists. They resigned after the hostage crisis. The cause of opposition to breach of all internationals. I get why didnt we in february see okay, we had one of these, lets take everybody else. We didnt then the mcl. There were a thousand people in the staff and bristling in the investor, got it down to 70. He reinforced the gates and he put more security in but at the end of the day, we had so monday assets in iran flames spare parts, cia opposition to the soviet union and the cold war. And since they had this students, the feeling is it would happen a secondd time. In the cold world war copulation we did not want to turn around over to the soviet union. We have a poll on twitter and you can follow us on cspan also for this program, for steve cspan history. As the main reason why president carter was defeated in 1980. And willte in the bowl have your results later. Let me ask you what was it like personally for you. You are held hostage for just over a year. Where were you held and what was it like. It was not pleasant. On the brother hand, we all survived. All of us came out and all the survived that is a great tribute i say to president carter. He was determined that we were going to stay alive. He didnt necessarily have to happen that way. It couldve gone in a different direction. It could have on very badly. The iranians still monday of them have repeated the narrative that wet were treated well ande were guests in a hotel. This is absolute nonsense. In the 14 months that i was there, i was nine months solitary threatened monday times. The arranged mock executions or they isolate us and they cut us off from news and information. We work incommunicado they attempted to convince us we had been forgotten. Very little communication with family outside and were not well treated. We were part of the time in ir iran. April. Rescue mission in we were scattered around thesc country. We were in a prison in downtown around. Very easy to hear the iraqi flames ofas that. Attacking iran in that. And we were in p various places around the city so we were released in january and are playing the cough 15 or 20 minutes after president carter lift office. He met with the current head of iran. What was that like. What was he like back then. Was a very strange meeting. He was at the time a second rate cleric, about my edge, a few years older than i was. Prayer leader of tiburon which is the major position. We fell into a very iranian host and guest interaction. I didnt abuse him. I didnt use bad language. It sure was tempting to do so but i did it. Instead my message to him was sir, i know in your culture, how to treat a guest. Ut treats a guest in a certain way. I treated him as a guest in my space. I asked him to sit down. I offered him whenever i had, had he had anything to eat or drink. I offered him that. My message to him was i know how to treat a guest. You do not. What is happening here is absolutely shameful. Disgraceful. Violates every tenet not just of religious law, or international law, but the deepest principles rooted in your culture. The iranians have an thanks christian of someones head with cotton. That was my purpose. And something to johns very moving counseling he wouldnt have known at the time. President carter decided not to use military action at the beginning. I recommended it along with hard advisors about blockading to the harbors. He said he chose diplomacy. But if thats a very clear message through the cyst was the germans and the others. And if one hair on the head of any of our hostages was harmed if there was any torture, if there were show trials in which they were forced to admit some guilt there would be immediate military action and as a result there was none so well certainly john and his colleagues were mistreated, the absence of torture and show trials came because of that very clear and repeated message by president carter the military action will result if those kind of actions occur. Four years since the hostage crisis and that is our focus on cspan and see if anan pre and the tv is joining us for this conversation. President jimmy carter during the four years of his administration is now the author of the book president carter the white house years. Until number, his book negotiating with iran, he served as a u. S. Legal officer in iran. And it was held hostage for this 444 days. Welcome our viewers and listeners and will go first to mickey, joining us from milwaukee. Good morning. Morning. I am very sorry to what you went through in iran. I am an iranian. Very start part of the history and the relations. And is widely known amongst the iranians that jimmy carter his presidency was responsible for the downfall of the shah his regime. The ideas, of wanting to have islamic built this former soviet union and mistakes of turner, william sullivan, in his message to the shaw the president cart carter. I wanted your opinion on the mistakes of the carter presidency and the price we have been paying for the last 40 years. Thank you for the call. I am very candid about the mistakes that the Administration Made terrible intelligence, muddled messages because of differences between secretary of state ants and National Security advisor sort of rogue diplomacy of investors sullivan and much, else but it is totally unfair to suggest that jimmy carter lost iran and the shaw lost iran by losing the support of his own people. And, as a result of the situation we have today. So it is no more fair to see that jimmy carter lost iran than it would be to see and i would see this to yourht viewers that the wyatt i and hout eisenhower lost cuba we had a castro communist revolution 90 miles from our short for that president obama was responsible for departures. There certain things that a superpower, 7000 miles away cant do. The only way the shot couldve been saved, wouldve been massive use of military horse by the shah which he himself in his own memoir said a monarch cannot shed blood of his own countrymen to save his throne. Or a very clear message from the Carter Administration at the shaw should use such horse and there clearly was a muddled message in that respect. But again the bottom line is shaw lost iran not jimmy carter. Theres a pitcher in your book from september of 1977, south lawn of the white house. Theres teargas in the air you see that the shah his wiping his eyes. Explain this photograph. Soon a first state visit that the child made in the Carter Administration was in november of 1977. In the outdoor welcoming ceremony, there were demonstrations across the south lawn of the white house in the park and by iranian students. They were as it turned out, radical students to disperse the crowd amount National Park service use teargas and the wind blew it into the face of the shot and the president causing up. To tear was the first sign and anybody had that the shaw might be in trouble. You also see to your viewer, time and time and time again when the demonstrations occur, and in 79, the president consistently supported the shaw. He wanted to even fire our investors sullivan are suggesting we should reach out to coming. Over the objection of the state andsecretary of human rights at dorian, carter ordered teargas and brother supplies being given to the shot to put down the demonstrations. So he constantly and consistently make the top of the shaw simply lost a court ultimately lost support of much of the military which was his real bull. Put your viewer said is the very common and very powerful narrative. Monday of my iranian friends believeen that the shaw hall was arranged by president carter. I dont agree with that and i would see to you iranian viewer, but must. We get it. We did it to ourselves. Because what you had was middleclass people middleclass secular people, teachers and doctors and professionals and lawyers they were all out there marching behind the banner of ayatollah remaining, and calling for an Islamic Republic that went out knowing what and islam like republic would bring them. Present carter after all had gone to a iran in late december or early january 19781977 in 1978 and made this very speech and tested a dinner there which he spoke about iran being an island of stability and turbulent region. While a year later, the shot was weve god in iran is in chaos but if i might just make one last comment shaw his. Of view, and then shaun believed exact you what our viewer said. He believes for some reason president carter and brother western leaders and decided to get rid of him for reasons that he didnt know. They were superpowers and they could do what they want and they didnt have to tellhi it. From his. Of view, looking at it from his. Of view, when he got in trouble in 1978, president carter would not, he went to president carter and said what should i do. Present carter his response said hes is his country, i cant tell them what to do. He is the king. It is quite correct but from the shaws. Of view, for 30 years, american president s had told him what to do. And so looking at it from his. Of view, while present carter has abandoned me and cut me off and he is throwing me on the bus. From maryland. Have a quick question because i have to leave for church and about three minutes here but i just was wondering on the gentleman feel because iran and russia aress alive, and this is been historic says how did they feel about the fact that President Trump has given away the country of syria to russians in iran. Smacked thank you for the question johanna. You put that in perspective. Sure, iran is the factor here as well because iran has brought only the world his worst supporter of terrorism hamas in gaza lebanon yemen but in syria as well and iran is trying to build Permanent Military base with missiles that would be able to attack israel. Interestingly the administration with all of its chest pumping, is basically pulling out the middle east and sending aan sigl to the russians in particular that we dont want these endless wars so we step back from supporting the kurds have done so much for us including helping us the most wanted terrorist and were fighting our battle were reducing our footprint and reckon about afghanistannd and this is the vy clear signal to iran into the russians were feeling that vacuum is fair game now in the u. S. Has brought going to block them. And that is exactly what is happening in syria now instead of having the pro american kurds, and the north of syria we have the russians in the right hands. You take those brief moment and walks out the initial moments of the if it unfolded. First from your its been standpoint and you are inside the u. S. Embassy in tehran, given leave the front door. What happened after that for you and your brother colleagues. When i last talked to these people, and me and they also had Security Officer was mentioned in the documentary. They were in front of the door and iron door to the second floor of our chancery building. Both american and iranian step taken refuge. They put pistols to our heads. They said to be dont store in five minutes, we are going to shoot these two people. Were they bluffing. I dontng know. But ive always been gratified that we didnt call their bluff. And find out and once that happened, the embassy wouldve fallen eventually anyway. When the host government, any embassy anywhere in the world, is the hoster government that is responsible for the security of diplomats. Washington london benghazi, sometimes the governments fulfill their commitments. Obviously in a run, they did not. In the provisional government which six months earlier had thrown out a group of invaders by the way, who were actually n ft t us an arm. And in this case, was simply unable to respond. The only one who could have given the orderer was monday and he was not going to do it. The political environment in the country here where kennedy was about ready to announce his his challenge to jimmy carter. Were you both politically it in the if it in iran. I was very much involved in imposing and trying to get cooperation morales to shoot impose sanctions to iran. I was involved in trying to develop an Energy Policy that would avoid gasoline lines that occurred because of the cut off iranian oil. But its very important to understand the notion that we let the shot to his own devices has brought food. We sent him, if two options. A military government or a Coalition Government with the Secular National front. We back every effort he made but in the demonstrations and recent generalizing, threestar general choice before the show lift to book up the military, to support his the shaws last Prime Minister locked year and we coordinated that through general heiser to troy to get them the army to put down these demonstrations so at every step there was an effort to save the shot or when it was clear he couldnt be, to make sure the khomeini didnt take over. Quick followup, did you present carter relies on november 4 fourth 1979, that this would go on for a year. Smacked no one knew, in fact that Prime Minister, khomeini was on Prime Minister and foreign minister, both said to n us, to the administration, ths is going to be like a sort of vietnam interested in and youll be gone in a couple of days. And what changed it was the race by khomeini. Of the student take over of which he did not do in february of 79 because he used this as a political pun steve, to rally support behind his radical fundamentalism i push out his own moderate government. We didnt appreciate this at the time. It was a huge undermining fight between the more prodemocracy Secular Nationalist in the radical fundamentalist. John perhaps would be appreciated but we did not understand it is the new thing for us. One is the radical, islamic government creative his the first in history we had no idea and yossi and monday of the national thought khomeini is just going to be a figurehead and hell be on the sidelines giving sermons. Not realizing that he wanted to take over the government and make it a radical islamic government. Will go to ellen in east chicago indiana. Good morning and thank you for cspan2 and a been watching it for decades and i love the show. I appreciate you being there. My recollection of what happened and i agree this was a huge Foreign Policy blunder. I say her country never really had an appreciation of the iranian people or their culture and what they were thinking. Like it was mentioned earlier we view iranian as a piece or upon a chessboard against russia that went out appreciating what the people were thinking. I saw iranian students processing on the campuses in the so they would hide their faces so they conceded they were in college. They were afraid that if they survived, the secret police to the, the restraint here in the United States, and ways of torture and integration and whatever it was the military dictatorship that we created and i can understand why iranian people till this day are upset with us. We are still messing with them. I just wish we would leave them alone. Its been a talent thank you for the college or shaking your head. Is the good. That ellen makes. The iranians, the last couple of years have not been fortunate. Things have not gonehe well. In the last hundred years, there is in this ongoing struggle of iranians to establish a government that treats them with dignity and treats his own people with dignity and treats his own people with respect and that respects independence of the country. The Prime Minister attempts to take control of irans oil. It is one resource which part of that struggle. Perhaps the revolution was seen in this way. An interesting part was the u. S. Originally this 100 year struggle was on the right side of it. We support it. We lost the missionary, howard, 19 oh seven, he was killed in the constitutional revolution, he was 24 years old. President truman, first supported most of that, he did not want to do the koch. But somehow we ended up on a different side. We are seen there. The problem was when the administration was deciding weather to admit the shaw or not from all i have read it all i have heard this history was not known. So when the shaw was admitted to the u. S. , he had been deposed six or seven months earlier. But to 98 percent of iranians, admitting the shot would be seen as preparation for a rerun of 1953,. I should. Out that those shot died in 1980 in w egypt. The question is weather or not you say the incidents the hostage crisis and those americans held for 244 days, the reason for present carter his defeat in 1980. Ohio. Good morning, policy, to the release of the hostages and by the americans. I was first of all i was in my 30s. I did not vote for president carter. I did not agree with him with that being said, i remember it was after the inauguration that president dead in a inaugural lunch and i believe he did the announcement the hostages have been released and is the recall, he said that they were released. My more my motions were most like most americans. I was glad they were released. Even though i was not a supporter of president carter, i felt great part. [inaudible conversation] you broke up but we got the essence of this. Well move a little bit ahead to 1980 when i have a little bit of sand from president carter shortly before he lift the white house and his Ronald Reagan was sworn in as her play president he is on the phone troy to get the very latest witches come later later that day. Listen. Weve gotten word from another country in iran, he stated 813 this morning that he would in forum them when the plane leaves. So i presume this the first notice that we had that the plane will be leaving. From january 20th you are in the oval office is all of this unfolded it was a very long morning. These negotiations have been going on for a year. In the last three days of his administration literally the president did not sleep. He stayed in the oval office and napped on the couch because he wanted desperately to get the final agreement to release the hostages done before he lift office. To clear the deck for his successor Ronald Reagan and in the final actsu despite being oy allow the hostages even though the agreement was reached before the president lift office, delete iranian airspace and a second after he was sworn in, reagan was sworn in. To show you how dramatic this was, the chief of staff, and his immediate advisors, were in the west wing. And had a connection to fill wise the present appointment secretary on the inaugural pop platform as reagan was being sworn in. Hoping to tell the president that the hostages have been released. Unfortunately they did tell him they were only released afterwards. They had then had to get out of the white house because the administration was open. As we were on the plane, going back to georgia, and you can have the vault back to the operator troy to get more detailed information the operator said, im sorry who the administration is over and i cant give you that it information it is classified. This was the clear end of the administration but it was so dramatic is literally the president worked day and night to reach the agreement that was finally reached in terms of what would happen with the asset refrozen dollars, and monday brother details is reached before hand but khomeini and a final jab at the president would not allow him the benefit of the hostages released on his watch. Summa got an idea were aware, we waited, who told the night before. Gu we are leaving. We are examined by some algerian doctors and actually we were told that originally some of us were leaving. And that there would be or we would have a Television Interview application and weather we said that at the interview would determine over weather we lift or not but able to find the you were while leaving. There was about two in the morning. G. Of the 20th. Then we just answered all day. We were ready to go and we didnt know there been in lastminute hitch or when it happened and tell about maybe six in the evening to runtime which wouldve been maybe ten in the morning here in washington. They shoved us into buses to go the airport. I say it put me into the restroom of the bus. I say i thats how i went to the airport. Staying the bathroom. Anyway they got us to the airport and there were three flames on the tarmac and the taswiss ambassador was there to make sure that everybody was there they checked off all 52 names. And then, the plane waited. And in this final bit of spite, and i only see this, if jimmy carter was the person who brought khomeini power, this is an odd way for khomeini to behave. To put his finger his eye and the brother narrative which is out there, it is frequently heard is the wholele thing was n agreement between the Republican Campaign and the iranians, to delay and release lease until after the election. So jimmy carter cannot benefit from this or his election. This is very common narrative when people asked me about this all i can see is i dont know theres never been any documentation of Something Like this. But there was a particular spite and dislike of the revolutionaries. The jimmy carter. Jimmy carter taken from both sides. The revolutionaries just like him and as her caller said, the opposition, the pro shot, also dislike him. Soon it only 32 of the 52 hostages met with jimmy carter. Why did 20 decide not to be with him. I just started this. You say you are talking about where we were at the american hospital. I was in such a state, i wasnt counting he was there and he was out there. I was there and i knew he had sacrificed his presidency for us. And i wasnt about to show disrespect at that. There were others who disagree and he resented it. And among our 52 people, i love them all very dearly but there are great political differences. I guess here was held for 444 days taken on november 4th 1979 and released on january 20th 1981 and these are the events that unfolded 44 years ago. In effect proceed to all of this during president jimmy carter his time. Two quick things one there is a lingering question but with that there was a republican led october surprise. Iran expert at the National Secure counsel, there is a secret deal the alleged either by then Vice President ial candidate George Hw Bush or William Casey was a campaign manager. To tell her and dont release the hostages before the election. There were congressional investigations about this which found that this was a good was a. But it is true that in case he disappeared like init mexico campaign, which went to paris, the evidence is certainly inconclusive and i would not allege that it occurred there still is the lingering doubtre about this but more significant. What is it that actually triggered in the end the the hostage situation. Its unmistakable with all of the radical forces, it was the decision of president carter as the last holdout to shaw for Cancer Treatment. Is it very important to understand how this happened. Reference made four months to troy once it was disclosed that shaw had some problems getting into the United States. President carter said no i remember what happened in february, and i dont want to take this chance again. I dont want pitcher of him playing tennis in california. A pr effort was started. By the shaw with Henry Kissinger and David Rockefeller and with john jakein mccoy. And they put relentless pressure on the president staying how can you turn your back on an ally of 25 years who its been so much for us. You are weak. And you are not standing behind our guy in the middle east when he needs it. And carter continued to see no. And then only in october, october 18th, precisely. 1979, only in october, was it disclosed by David Rockefeller that the shot had cancer and had been treated for five years. We didnt know it, the cia didnt know his own family didnt know it and that change the whole equation. Vice president lundell in advance, against said look we cant let somebody is dying of cancer standard u. S. Youll need treatment near the president even thin with the extra length, he wanted the state department doctors to give an opinion. Can he be treated elsewhere. And two doctors said probably not and it turns out he couldve easily been treated to mexico by u. S. Trained doctors but that was the precipitating factor and at the very beginning carter said when all the brother said, okay now do we have to admit impurity. Gunderson re going to ask me to do if the storm the embassy as they did in february but this time the dont leave and that technical masses hostage. And will hear from president carter in 1980 it is state of the union address. In a moment. Good morning cspan2 and good morning to you to guess, hinteresting chapter you are discussing here but to get to the root of the problem, one needs to go back to the beginning of the book. At the beginning of the history of this country, we are first, was called the barbary wars and it was a war on the religion of islam. It wasnt a radical extremist like you are talking herel about in iran this was something that jefferson and adams address on the congress on addressing about the roof of nuts in the 70 was taking place on merchant ships over there in the mediterranean and they quoted the ambassador to tripoli and was asked by are you being so savage against us, are you asking for tributes in the kidnapping our ships and our merchants in the ambassador from tripoli quoted from the koran so this is the beginning of our history with this loan and you get to get all of the way back to the sixth century. Your response. Im a historian by training i dont know all of the ins and outs of the war with the barbary pirates, but this whole episode in my view of has nothing to do with islam. Islam is one of the world his great states and it shares a great deal with christianity and judaism and nowhere in islam as i understand it is such an action as it was taken in tehr tehran. Patrick in minnesota good morning. Thank you forrin addressingh a hard topic. My question was in the team really answered it, i was 17 years old going on 18, the flavor the culture of the country and the timeline was just horrible then the economy was in shambles in our pride was in tatters and as a kid going into college and wondering where we stood and why we stood where every thing else, he was really in conflict and in completing the acuity where my question was who was to really be credited here in the exorcist of the Carter Administration and all its hard work that the individual admission was it reagan positioning himself to capitalize on this reduced happenstance that they collided at the same time and say the question got answered but where are we now in history it seems like carters still seems to be the db failure in this and reagan seems to be the theme savior. Which is outlined in the book and president carter the white house years. He asked that. I cant, he seen as a success because the hostages were released after he was inaugurated president carter was the one responsible for negotiating that but having said that, on a very frank, we had a major decision to make once the hostages were taken on november 4th, 1979, 44 years ago. The military option which i recommended and doctor and security advisor, not dropping bombs on tehran but blockading the harbors to prevent their oil from being exploited. It can argument against that by the military and others was we are in the cold war the soviets could troy to confront us in there. But that was one option and i say it had been taken, the hostages might will be in place in the second, was diplomatic. The president had the hostage families perhaps including johns to the white house shortly after and he said our number one priority is to get your loved ones out safely and soundly and he did. But that meant that he took the military option off the table. And third mayday mistake and holding himself up in the white house and canceling foreign troops in canceling campaigning and against to kennedy in the to show he was spending full time working on the hostage crisis but instead, and made him in a sense, the hostage and he gave him anymore negotiating authority and it caused night gown program bogart bolted crying right in the duma reporting every single broadcast,et day two oh six, day three of seven of the hostage crisis, so it was like taking a drop of poison everything today. Then one less. Because your caller talk about the estate of the economy. T the decade of the 70s with a decade of slow growth and high inflation on nixon ford and carter and we got to double digit inflation. We inherited high inflation already in significant part because of the iranian revolution why because it cut off all but 1 million of the 5 Million Barrels of oil per day in oil prices the stock market double in 12 months and it cause inflation to go up in your car and what was the greatest decision appointed walker the head of Federal Reserve knowing the poker was going to choke the economy. Raise Interest Rates rising employment to deal with this and patient carter said it was i dont want my legacy to be profitable high inflation. Even if it means bike reelection. To the question we have in our twitter page was the hostage crisis was it the reason he lost it. It was a yes but from the hostage also had a domestic Economic Impact so absolutely, it wasth humiliating that the superpower couldnt get john and his colleagues released after 444 days by the way he had several agreements with his Prime Minister, and each time you monday would to be to it so in my recent yes the primaries and in the hostage rescue which failed and became a metaphor for the failure to get the hostages out. And the failure of the administration sold so that was the thread in my opinion that led to his defeat overwhelming defeat but the point i was also making was that it had a domestic Economic Impact shutting down iranian oil tilting crisis and gasoline lines to occur. Suitable talk about the rescue minute imminent. Kentucky. Have a question. And this is about something i read monday years ago. Ive never heard it stated again. But what i read was that when carter first entered office, he realized he learned that th cia was paying off the basically to save us a part of why its and keep a low profile. It turned that her name in. And of course is when they began to clamor for attention and power. I dont know if cia was the straws government is subsidized a lot of the clergy. There is one theory out there when faced with economic difficulty they cut the subsidies and that created allies for homey i could make one comment about the blocked in the idea of a blockade the idea of cutting off the shipment of oil, it mightve worked might not have worked we dont know. That your caller talked about is absolutely not true. The best evidence of that is it substantially restricted the activity in the cia and wouldnt let them reach out to any opposition or determine what was happening domestically, only focus on the soviet union so the cia was hobbled in its ability of what was happening. The cia was using the u. S. Government money. Without any success leading up to the election. Guest a number of colleagues and reporters at the time and they all said and he has admitted it to me in an interview for the book that he gave too much attention. He could have said we made an offer about negotiating this. They are responsible for the safety of john and his colleagues if they violate it it wouldnt have cost that much attention. Instead you had yellow ribbons all over th. He called more attention to the crisis. You couldnt avoid it obviously but he b said publicly every morning when i get up the first thing i think about is the hostages and every night when i go to sleep the first thing i think about is the hostages. He focused the spotlight. Theres also the issue of the canadian six. Guest this became a cookbook. Six of the colleagues were not in the embassy they were elsewhere in the country and they hid themselves for weeks and made their way to the embassy in tehran. The canadian ambassador in a wonderful story working with the white house as a state department because the cia to masquerade as a canadian film company to take film footage in iran and then the canadian ambassador got Fake Passports if we had to have a special session because you couldnt come into canada with a fake passport and allow this to happen. Thats how they got out and the interesting thing he didnt try to take credit for this. We got six canadians through the passport and six of them are diplomats. We didnt want to let the radicals know that we have accomplished this. It only came up with this great movie into the. You mentioned ted koppel several have become aware of the infection and he was one of those reporters and explained i got a call from the secretary of state saying they understand you are going to put the story on the air tonight. I cant tell you not to do it but i would ask you not to because it seems inevitable that if you put it on the air it would be taken and the americans but escaped with probablyul be killed. Ultimately he decided not to go with the report. The only time in more than 50 years that ive ever killed a story. Guest thats correct and he deserves a great deal of credit for it because others knew about it and we implored them not to do it because it those six. I give great credit to his colleagues for not running with what would have been a great headline. Caller this question is for the final weekend of the 1980 campaign, president carter received word of a possible breakthrough with iran over the hostages. He broke on the campaign, flew back to washington to deal with it in early sunday. The country seemed to get its hopes up only to be disappointed when they were not released. How much of an impact did this have . They had seen close up to that point. What is your hunch about how that might have turned out in if none of that happened in the final weekend . Guest let me give you the figures. Going into the one and only debate with Ronald Reagan which was eight days before the election and one should never give a challenger that close. We were ahead at the time and Ronald Reagan surged ahead and we learned the halflife is very short. By the last weekend but the caller was talking about, not just our own internal polls that cbs, nbc had us gaining among the undecideds as a known figure so in chicago i was in the hilton photo as we are going for the west coast swing and im told that 3 a. M. To get on air force one the president is going back to the white house. Theres been a new offer from the iranians, and i said no. Dont go back. Look at the altar and determine if it is adequate. If you go back, its going to bring the whole hostage crisis story back. He insisted he needed to take every last chance and if we looked him it was a positive step, but not enough. I saw some of the chief of staff all said if you were going to do it, blast the hell out of the iranians for trying to interfere in the sai state he gave a very modest statement step forward, its not enough and all of the support collapsed because it brought the story back and it was clear that wasnt sufficient to resolve it. It i was a huge mistake on the persistence part and i think the election would have been different had we ignored it or simply said its inadequate. Host we continue to pursue these specific goals to protect the interests of the United States in the second to preserve the lives of the hostages into secure as quickly as possible to say the least bi which might further endanger the lives of our fellow citizens to enlist the help of other nations in condemning this act of violence which is a shocking and violates the standards of the civilized rule and also to convince and persuade the leaders the danger to their nation lies in the north and the soviet union and from the troops in afghanistan the unwarranted response to this far greater danger to them. If the american hostages are harmed a severe price will be paid. [applause] that was january of 1980 and then april 24, there was a rescue mission in which president carter said one of his biggest regrets is not having another helicopter. Do you remember anything that happened afterwards on the did you here about the mission and where were you . In tehran at the time. They didnt tell us what happened but there was a sense of hysteria i could hear right outside my window the crowd seemed to be much less organized than they had in the past. They came into this so instead packed up. We are leaving. By the way, we are leaving for a long t trip. Its not just going from one building to another. Because they did a lot of that. They moved around within the embassy. I ended up about seven hours south of tehran. No one ever said wh y. And i dit know until about a week later when i was able to stealst a newspaper and there was a story about a mission. What i learned as there had been a mission and it failed and there had been american casualties. I spread the story as much as they could in one of her clandestine ways we have of communicating. The reaction for most of us was first of all obviously disappointment, grief for the young man who lost their lives but also the sense that we are not forgotten. We had no illusions about how difficult this was, since you are extracting somebody from the middle of the city, 6 billion people in broad daylight. How do you do this, how difficult this is going to be. But the people who did it, and i still talk to them andoi i still am in contact with them. Toey had the guts to try and they were putting their lives on the line to come and rescue us. Guest we have to go back to the beginning, two days after john and his colleagues the president authorized the beginning of the planets of the hostagetaking, two days afterwards we went through all the diplomatic channels but during that whole time in the hills of North Carolina there were rehearsals for this hostage rescue. The kernel created something called the delta force. We didnt have a counterterrorism operation. We appreciated them. This was the first opportunity. Why the president finally pulled the trigger because the last effort in paris and the then foreign minister had failed. The president said id had it. We are going to pull it off the shelf. Weve been practicing this for a while. Why did it fail . It was seen as another failure by the president. Itit failed for the following reasons and it was exquisitely planned and rehearsed. There has to be a minimum of six helicopters to s go from the Aircraft Carrier to visi deservs number one and then go to the outskirts of tehran stay overnight, go into the trucks and stormed the embassy and come back. When the helicopters came, there were only left. They had a hydraulic failure with only five left and the kernel was urged from the air force lets go in with five. It will be 20 plus men but lets do that. And he said our agreement is that we have to have a minimum of six. They called on the president of the United States at that point and thete president said im not going to overrule if he feels we cannot do it im not going to take the risk. So we didnt do it and there were other problems. We knew there were problems. There should have been ten or 12 more backups. The helicopter pilots did not know even though there was intelligence about it, that therete were about were called sandstorms that landed the helicopter pilots coming in at only 200 yards above the surface. If they had known about it he saysays when they saw the sandsm they couldnt communicate it and then there was the lack of Dinner Service coordination with the services. They were not properly coordinated. There wasnt a full dress rehearsal out of it and it was a lack of coordination on the ground as well. So, sandstorms, helicopter hydraulic problems, lack of coordination, all terrible luck and to complete it, the president got the word instead at least nobody lost their lives. One of the helicopters trying to take off it caused a huge flame host domestic policy advisor for jimmy carter and as a hostage we would just be joining us from maine thank you for waiting. You mentioned some excellent points about how it seems to be jimmy carter was caught between the old foreignpolicy did you think if he had been a little more forceful in the foreignpolicy list down continued by gerald ford was being brought on and people dont flip overnight. They influence people that have been hurting for quite a while. But he answered very quickly. Theres no question the president didnt get the clarity that might have been on the occasion th of signal about usig military force. But that is in part because we thought that it would cause worse. There was a division of that here is where i have to depart. Its true and i give full credit in the book for helping to bring the soviet union to its knees we bring the soft power of humanie rights to champion human rights in the soviet union and hard power. We reverse the decline and in defense spending. Weapons system which Ronald Reagan deployed against the mx missile and cruise longrange Cruise Missile from intermediate nuclear forc forces, every single one of those was green lighted and collated exactly with this crisis. Christmas day, 1979 just after the hostage crisis the soviets invade afghanistan and even his ticonservative critics say thatt was his finest hour and increased spendingg by 5 . The grain embargo even before the caucuses arming the opposition, boycott of the olympics. We did use hard power. Host viewer in london watching on the parliament channel. Good afternoon to you. Tccaller good afternoon. Thank you for taking my call and to the panelist. The Islamic Republic, what have they learned in order to survive the best way for them is to react slowly to every event and this happened by accident that they learned that a. They will take three months to return the punch and both lose interest or they were distracted by Something Else and this goes back int inserted in 1979. What if there was no deadline set by the Carter Administration and today that has been the strategy. Guest the survival of the republic for 40 years has caused a lot of observers by surprise. People did not expect that to happen with all the problems that it has with the eightyear war in iraq and economic catastrophe in isolation. A its very clear it is their own survival they may say never and they make and puff. By 98, ayatollah maney agreed to a ceasefire, something he would never do and he only did it after that but the advisors went ahead and censor, we are finished. We cant fight anymore. We are broke. We have to get the best deal that we can. So, when they need to make a retreat, and i think the Supreme Leader used the phrase terra heroic flexibility in this regard. Bie other thing that has worked for them is they used events like the hostage crisis. One of the students said this to me very early on. This isnt about america or that of jimmy carter, this is a settling of scores among ourselves and we want to push out the nationalists. We want to push out the leftists, which they did. And im talking about the religious ideologues and very effectively they used these events to crush all opposition and monopolize power for themselves. And theyve done that for 40 years. How long can they go on . I wont predict. My own personal record of predicting events isnt very good. The problem they have of course is the same group of people who took power and consolidated power in 79 and 80. Some of them are still there, power. Nd in guest the question is terrifically important. One of the lessons i draw from the whole hostage crisis in this whole episode is that with the iranian, you cant simply negotiate without some force behind a. Of we took it off the table, or the sanctions regime. Whatever one thinks of the regime in the administration and i think it was a positive, that everyone would agree the only reason that they came to the negotiating table is because the European Union joined our sanctions, cut off all oil, sanctioned the bank and refused to let any transactions be clear in the system. I worked on those during thee hostage crisis. I think when one deals with iran, they are massive negotiators and they play chess. They will play with you indefinitely unless and that is one of the lessons i draw. The agreement arranged for the release and that was in august of 1980 there was in essentially in agreement. After the death in january kabul late july i believe that he called his advisers have said severasettle the hostage crisis. He enlisted one of his relation and the germans started to meet a. El if we settle this we will have to start to make concessions. Some of them looked at him and said what part of settling dont you understand . Host we only have a few minutes and this is what he said. Guest it took them four months into the mediation shifted from the germans to the algerians and i support them. They did a superb job in the media. Theyve asked the agreement of it was a version of the accord to file suit for the damages. We signed onir to that. I and my fellow hostages are concerned about that. We think weve been denied a basic human right as we were denied a major human rights in the time we were held hostage. We are doing what he can first legally and now with friends in the congress to see if an arrangement cant be made to permit us to gain some degree of compensation both orally and financially from the government of iran for the way we were held and treated, violation for all. Fullstop the pharmacy. That was the bottom line that was at stake to seek some relief in that account in particular. Host by the way he died early on this year. Guest two points. Arst we had an agreement basically an august the Un Commission would come come interview, the iranian could get things off their chest, hostages would be transferred and it would be done. Whatng changed is the invasion f iran by iraq which they thought we introduced. I sympathize with what was said. One of the most difficult tradeoffs is the kept 10 billion of their frozen asset but we also give up the right for the hostages to sue. I wish that didnt happen. It was necessary to get the deal done. And i wish after weve taken the 10 billion of assets and given it to the hostages and their families. In fact this was done recently by the congress, but bruce is cerrect it was a terribly difficult tradeoffs. But it wasnt as if we didnt get something for it. We were able to keep 10 billion in frozen assets to satisfy claims by companies and others that made sales to iran and never got host you get the final word. Guest as i understand the negotiation going on, i understand he was assured by his lawyers do this with her stand up in court. Its stood up for 40 years. The damage from this was uncomfortable for us in difficult and frightening but it did immeasurable damage. From all indications the government there has learned nothing and continues to take hostages, dual nationals and others. You have to wonder how they learned nothing from them because they continue on this illconceived policy. Host one of the hostages held as they unfold, public negotiating with iran wrestling with the ghost of history. His book the white house years and we get a frontrow seat from here in washington as the events unfolded. Fascinating conversation. Thank you for being with us