Good afternoon welcome to our seminar book talk and conversation it is a great pleasure to welcome back authors Andrei Soldatov and Irina Borogan the talks about russias exile to be to distinguish investigative journalist and authors of the red web of the governance of the internet and also of the new nobility with Russian Security services. So this is the third part of the trilogy and we are so excited that you are here with us today. We are filming this so go to the audience will ask you to identify your self and it is on the record in terms of a discussion. In terms of format we will start with general questions i will ask of our core authors and one coauthors and there are copies of the book that they will happily sign for you after the event. Welcome back, welcome to york but tell us about what motivated you to write this book at this particular point in time spin i thank you very much. Have to say you contributed a lot. But not with russian exile. So with the research in new york thank you very much so i was very surprised to write a new book on immigration. Because from our family dozens of cousins, nobody alex told you the Russian Security services and on the internet. And we didnt know what to do next hasnt covered politics and Security Services had nothing to do with immigration so it is an issue because what is open. And then to that they can live in country easily. With the political immigration of when he came to power with the political opponents it was the russian oligarchs that were in charge from russia independent media with newspapers and magazines. But at the same time we didnt see this issue with political exile who have any dissent into the kremlin and it had so brutal but it became very important to understand as a country and with intimidation and poisoning and after that it was a political factor. With those Security Services and also political conscience in russia. And Security Services it is very brutal. So we decided on immigration. It is so interesting because the book itself this intriguing mix with the postrevolutionary russia with the contemporary events. Wondering if you can reflect a little bit to take us through what you have discovered or the similarities and differences with the exiled emigre issue. So for instance on one hand the kremlin pushes people out of the country but the kremlin gets upset and he didnt get it. And talking about politicians but nevertheless that visibly they get obsessed and they tried to understand the obsession what we found out it from the beginning from the revolution and there is a memory and then it was completely unimportant back then. And with the russian empire. With the Political Security service. Nobody could guarantee that this wouldnt happen again. And those manufacturers contribute to the revolution and the people that we spoke to in those Security Services of course its not an explanation that once upon a time a small group of people and the problem here that we hope to advise the Russian Security services. And back then france was already invaded and it was over five months before the soviet union getuniongets it back. January, 1941, the headquarters of the russian intelligence standard to the chief of the soviet intelligence urging him to intensify the struggle so in the middle of the war the small group of people here in new yo york. In the book the methods and ideas and Security Services were still there and believed the political exile. Its surprising because if you look at the history of the immigration you can see that it actually could be what could be done or could not be done from our side and the political regime and now in 2019 we can sort of assess the effectiveness of these methods and they tried almost everything. When they traveled to the west and they engaged in the propaganda and when the soviet army was involved in a military conflict they sent the soldiers there and when the Second World War started, some of them took the side of the enemy and participated in the soviet army. When the cold war started, and they engageagainthey engaged inf activities from the propaganda and tried to change the Public Opinion in the west and to be honest, almost nothing worked. The russian immigration became famous for being completely im capable for building any Political Organization and much of the despair of americans who believed this they had a story in the book and it inspired that one day they could produce something in terms of Political Organization that could produce some results, and to be honest right up until the end of the soviet rule, nothing came out of it. Still such a big figure the moment in the organization it was just actually a complete disaster but the one thing that actually works this book had a tremendous effect. One thing that worked was books. That is the challenge and what happens now of course we found ourselves in completely different situations and people could move freely. Now they have a new phenomenon, they have the russians here in washington and london and european capitals and they aspire to have a say despite the politics. It makes americans very uncomfortable and it produces a completely historical reaction. This is a new situation we have right here. They are very much inspired by the previous experiences of the soviet intelligence. A lot of the actions and networks and entry takes place in the city in new york. You mentioned you undertook some research while you were here. Tell us a little bit about new dork as a setting. Why hasnt had this appeal for the russian exiles in the past and would have been som what hae networks into different activities here. What does new york need the russian exiles seen if we can use that word . Everybody knows that after the civil war, russia immigrated to paris, istanbul. [inaudible] it was the primary goal for the time. They operated in istanbul, but at the same time in the late 20s when they expelled from the country and they had gone to mexico and a lot of the supporters in new york and in the United States. Its the people that immigrated because the politics to the jews in russia and they got sympathizers and [inaudible] and the beautiful old skyscraper downtown sees a beautiful building and the communist party of the United States watches the building and there was very intense activity across the country and they were a part of the communist international which unites and they had a lot of opportunities to recruit people from every country and europe. But after. They took the side and inside the United States there was some kind of they had recruited. The chairman of the communist party of the United States was his grandfather. [inaudible] the influenza activity put him in the position of the agent. He had never been a real agent. That was the focus for the Police Activity and another was located not far from there but had the place for conferences and everybody has agents in the camp. They were moving between the place is very fast. Its actually very close and this is a location you can see all the buildings and the headquarters so they lived very close to each other and the question is why new york and not washington because in russia everything is very hierarchical and everything should be directed from the capital. The reason that it wasnt in the bush of that revolution and he didnt want to give the use to the Russian Embassy in washington that he wanted to have some sort of compromise and the idea is to open an office in new dork to help or represent the soviet interest in the United States and it was closed down almost immediately because it was used to print propaganda. But that actually set the narrative for the agencies because the main agency was always here in new york. You have some stations where this was the center of the activities and of course when they gathered their headquarters in new york it also elevated the status of the intelligence agencies and intelligence offi office. Thats why its so important. And after the Second World War, many of the Political Organizations of the russian immigration moved to new your fearing what might happen to them after the war and what happens to them they moved their headquarters to new york and Many Organizations also moved to new york, so finally after the four you get a mix of the second wave and third wave of immigration here in new york trying to build some Political Organizations. As i said it wasnt always a big success mostly for the disaster but nevertheless this was the place maybe just one more question all of the barriers and challenges theres also stories about individuals who become wealthy or successful or maintain loyalty or at least try to maintain those contexts so the picture that emerges is much more complex than just exiles from the authoritarian system. Theres different kinds of people playing a different kind of role and im wondering especially and i wonder in a town controlling the media as one of these sort of critical things that the kremlin is concerned about what is the relationship theme the media war that is becoming privatized in the 90s and 2,000 concerned about those sort of living in exile and what they might do and how does that issue involves . A big part of the book and this is a question for us for many years here in the United States american officials and politicians like george kennan, they thought one thing when the soviet union would collapse, the need to see how to get political exile back to russia to have a say and when the soviet union collapsed, there was a kind of hope inside of russia and i remember some people could get back from abroad and we could all build something he had a special statement about that. Unfortunately it never happened. Most of them decided not to get back and it was a disaster but some descendents of the first wave of immigration sort of discovered that now because the counties open it so there are some new opportunities and they use both countries, they speak the language and understand the intelligence so they can contribute from both and opened the gates between russia and the west. Its quite an interesting thing and part of the book that in the field getting money out of the west to russia and the second field getting russian money for the west they played an extremely Important Role in [inaudible] process was held by immigrants and there was a big scandal. This story demonstrated to different generations of immigrants working together because one of them was the descendent of the first wave who immigrated after the revolution and another was the representative of jewish immigration and the different generations but for this process they cooperated brilliantly. There was a second to open the gates for the American Investment in russia and a descendent of the first wave of immigration was so prominent and useful that finally putin understood he could be really helpful not only in terms of money but also to provide some good publicity for very questionable things. For instance it was quite interesting she was killed a few years ago and back then he actually believed if the kremlin could invite british jordan that could be a good thing precisely because he was a russianamerican and he said there hes russianamerican and there is no way so that would be the guarantee and unfortunately it didnt work out this way. In a few years exactly because of the cabinets there was a terrorist attack in moscow in 2002 and they produced very good coverage and putin got angry and said we need to get rid of this guy that is not actually in the russian hotspot so finally its interesting that hes still a big supporter but that is how the story ended. He happened to make a channel and he was expelled two and a half years after he took over and i think that it was a good story to explain. Lets go ahead and opened up for questions. Please wait for the microphone to come to you and just ask you to identify yourself and lets keep one question per person so we can include everyone. In the back coming towards you right now. Chris from the center of global affairs. I was wondering you start out Chapter Three including things funded by the state and i wondered if you could comment how the administration is using these now. The thing is it has a very special meaning. And from the soviet union time, the competitors showed their loyalty to the soviet union and still have the official russian language and of course a lot of us to build up the organizations and all of the conclusions in the United States we know that they are sometimes very visible for instance here in new york or some other cities in the United States and these organizations they try to be visible on the streets and we try to understand how they could be used and how they are used by the Security Services because in the past, we knew things like this and how these organizations could be used now and of course the best study could be 2016 the russian interference and to our surpri surprise, it looks like the networks were already there but never operated by the kremlin to play an active role. Its quite interesting why. Soviet propaganda activity and networks of competitors. One is the online activities and putin was absolutely sure that it would be impossible. They are so good they couldnt be but that is exactly what happened. But some people got scared they could compromise everybody here very easily and its questionable results, and probably this is the reason that works are not activated so another theory you could use the networks for two things, public activity or espionage and of course you dont have any information about how they would be used because its not that feasible. At the same time they are still spending a lot of money on these organizations which are under the umbrella for us and that is a huge delay of organizations and of course the base recruitment for the kremlin or the Intelligence Services but its a question that hasnt been activated so far. The people who caught were professionals but at the same time you doesnt mean that they will never be used in the future. Another question. I am suzanne a graduate of the harriman when it was the russian institute, and im a historian. Theres a lot of people in your book that there is one name that was missing and i go back to the 1960s a man named i dont want to stand. I noticed shes not in your book and he was a friend of mine in munich. I knew a lot of people in your book. I dont know why, but he was working at Radio Liberty and i met him when he was very young and i was very young and he stayed in munich from 1966 to 1986 when he went back to the soviet union. To us we had a choice. We had almost similar careers. Both pretended to be defectors and both of them involved in the training for some jobs here in the soviet union and both of them turned out to be agents of the kgb. And it would be impossible to put everyone in the book so we chose one guy and they thought it was a very interesting story but he wasnt the sales guy it doesnt mean that one is more interesting than another because he was very active with a lot of information about whats going on so i dont know, we decided not to use the book. Take another question. You mentioned the russian influence into the city. Can you estimate how much roughly they spent per year . They can produce some estimates but its important to show how much money was spent because you know the old are according to the russian law and the account estimates how much money they spent inside of russia. Amoebae rather than the amount of money, and what are the type of activities . We talked about supporting certain groups and organizations and media spending activities. The problem is that when i backs much easier because you have the states now they have the states and the oligarchs that might be asked to help and to have the situation that is completely changed as a part of the situation in moscow and we know that for instance last year when you had the manifestation in new york it was used so these kind of things cannot be assessed because there are so many directions i and that is a big problem. You need to have some data. The idea of intermediary is an interesting one. Next question. I read a book on the orchestra so i was very interested in berlin and the station there because there was a big observation for maybe some of you know he was the american ambassadors daughter, girlfriend of alexanders and was brought back and try on the trials and that was the end. But i was interested in what you found out. Also, david interviewed all these people early on. Those that were called plaques lots of archives in the library and the original interviews and i was wondering how if you looked at him how well that information goes out. We chose to russian spies and became extremely important here in the u. S. And actually the experience is the defining thing for the russian and soviet intelligence. And he was a guy involved in the assassination but during the war he was the chief of the intelligence agency. Its a fascinating story because they are connected to and they became a big family of russian spies. Its still irrelevant to the service. They have a great in the office and he wanted to focus on these people because to us it was an embodiment. We have this kind of conventional spy who was sent very smart but disciplined. He was sent to new york to take over networks of american communists. But he actually ruined the whole thing and have some reactions and many of them were filled by the famous Founding Member of the party. Now he was a completely different figure and have experience in the civil war and was extremely smart. He was part of many kidnappings and attempts and finally this was after the war because of antisemitism. In our book we try to explain the choices of the soviet intelligence back then so we have some conventional efforts and even if you are not very smart extremely disciplined and reviewed your orders, finally you are still rated by your superiors. Hed helped kill his arc enemy. He was in charge of the duration and the Security Services and the descendents of those two people [inaudible] he started the activity from the idea in human rights for all prisoners in russia. He emigrated to germany and now is traveling between germany and russia. So that is an example of how they became the dissidents so that is very interesting there were spies for stalin and they provided a great way for their family and many generations after them that were also connected to the Security Services in russia. He got there and got a lot of money and turned him into a dissident. If of the story concentrated on this. The goal was to trick to find some human behind every method and russian intelligence we try to make them understandable but what happened after that and how they pursued their activities how they see these people right now and what kind of place so that was the idea. Lets take a couple more. I am not an academic i am a schoolteacher for 43 years. Can you please introduce yourself . We have read in the newspapers about former russian citizens being poisoned. I dont understand why they are being poisoned. So could you please explain. . I just have a question about do you have the estimate of how many people immigrated over the last five, ten years and to which country is . We have one more here, too mac. I immigrated here with my parents 30 years ago and i work for the bureau. My question i wanted to go back and my understanding is that for a while they were pretty well integrated and i wonder if you can talk about that more and to what extent they see themselves as agents of the secret services and to what extent they see their mission as those that might be serving here and other Foreign Countries but is their ideology. We have about five minutes and we need to cover poisoning and a relationship in thother relatioe Security Services have any final thoughts you might have. I will try to combine the first one and the last one. Weve got several people some our place and in the uk when he visited moscow he was poisoned twice into the interesting thing is you have this picture in your mind they are so incompetent and stupid and brutal but not really competent, so why are they doing this. And i also had this question when i spoke to people for the buck but played a very big role it was quite interesting you have an hour or two and the very last question of who was poisoned in the uk and i think the problem here is you might think it was incompetence but theres a strong message to People Living in other countries but yes our secret services are so brutal they would stop at nothing to kill you. One got the message that they should be more careful. I was surprised at this interview they played a big role and the final question was what do you think could happen and the question was what could happen to me. He was really careful with his remarks, so you see the connection. Sometimes it is more subtle, people just get the message we decided not to put a number of russian immigrants into the buck because how it might apply different and its impossible to be sure that they are accurate. We cant be sure how many immigrated from russia only after the moment of annexation from crimea because the citizens to be registered and this is run by the immigration service. I cant remember right now the exact number that got citizenship but its about 200,000 people and most of them integrated into the baltic states. Its not real immigration for the Second Citizenship and the baltic countries and baltic states. Like the Russian Revolution or Something Like that. But the United Nations was entered into the footnotes and there are 11 million russian immigrants in the war but according to the total estimate, theres 30 million russians who are representative. But what he means is people that are not connected to a [inaudible] superseded the record number. But again its not about millions and the problem is they still have a russian citizenship in Silicon Valley and new york and other places and you cannot actually count them. It is impossible because they are professionals, they didnt just leave the country after the revolution. They are professionals. Youve covered a tremendous amount in this talk. I wish you all the best in the book. Again its called the compatriot and just a reminder, he will sign copies following the event and i want to thank everyone for sharing your lunch hour with us and we wish you the best on your u. S. Book tour. [applause] hes a very good lawyer and judge. He probably wouldnt get up there and lie in front of the american people. But he navigated the truth i think is a good way to put it. There are conceivably different definitions of the devils triangle and all those terms. He said he had too many beers for example. Others indicate how excessively he was drinking but he did say he had too many so thats the kind of thing i mean. There was ultimately not a story or technical lie but the drinking was a through line that we found in the book which was frankly kind of what helped understand his development and what he was like as a young person and how these event is might have happened and what might shed light on explaining them. And drinking was a big part of that. And that is what brought so many classmates out of the woodwork during the confirmation hearings for that kind of planned to stay on the sidelines and say wait a minute that isnt what i remember. It was a very different level of drinking. I think that he kind of parsed d things out perhaps. But i also think that there is a question of his temperament towards the end, and there is an element to which there are people that have argued why has he not gotten up there and said i did some stupid stuff when i was young and im sorry about it and they may have heard people in the process and i feel bad about that, but then being a good person ever since, i made an effort to be a better person. I think that the argument is an this moment the word has been kind of inconceivable to think that he could still have made his way into the court. Its all about fighting back and there is no kind of room for the gray. Its how he spoke to Amy Klobuchar and how he wrote an oped in the wall street journal saying i probably went too far and theres no room for concessions. Did he express rewards anywhere he did apologize. There is a deeply felt apology on september 22 hearing and he kind of choked up on mac. He feels very bad about the way that this had come out so maybe he was simply referring to the media coverage, but the idea that she got hers was upsetting to him. In terms of saying i dont remember Something Like this but if i heard anybody in the past, im terribly sorry. That hasnt happened that i am aware of. How much would that have meant, and i think that christine with her thinking before she did this that she could call him to just say lets not do this which was so unrealistic at some level, but deborah ramirez, if he had just apologized and its so her hardo hear that might have been enough but the victims i talked to said that is what you need for closure o there is an acknowledgment that you did this to me. Its lost in the conversation. Should there be an apology and is the apology even possible if it feels worth it although in this case he said he was innocent of these charges and presumably didnt find it warranted but the cultural moment we are living in is just so hard it is a cultural moment in which you have the advent of social media where you can say any hateful thing to somebody and get away with it and make Death Threats they were worried about Death Threats and a lot of that comes from social media and feeling anything goes when it comes to language. I think the need to movement has also been a galvanizing cultural event for the last two years and at the time of the confirmation hearings, the movement had been underway for a while and i think there was a backlash brewing that it was going too far in the notion of being oversimplified and overlooking the investigation part of it that i was talking about earlier but then you do have a president who does advocate taking tough stances and has talked about allegations of Sexual Misconduct in something where you need to deny so it becomes very hard to acknowledge any flaws in that environment. One of the things we encountered is that we had to find our own assumptions about us as well as our preconceptions. I think that it was important for us to put ourselves into his shoes and imagine someone is being falsely accused and really kind of go there and look for that and try to understand. We have plenty of people that have argued guess it is temperament and unacceptable that imagine that you are fighting for your personal professional life. In the camp it was hard because they just assumed they had all sorts of ideas that reminded me what we were setting up to do. To watch the rest of the discussion visit our website, booktv. Org, search for the authors using the search box at the top of the page