Transcripts For CSPAN2 After Words Bill Gertz Deceiving The Sky - Inside Communist Chinas... 20240713

Afterwards is the weekly Interview Program with relevant guest house interviewing top about their latest work. Bill, congratulations and thank you for joining us today. We are going to cover a lot of ground in your book, deceiving the sky inside communist chinas drive for global supremacy. The first of all, why did you decide to write the book . This is my eighth book editing 2000, redbook called the china threat which was a play on what beijing calls the china threat theory. It was amazing. They really predicted the emergence of a major threat by communist china. This is never the book, i try to do another china book and every publisher approach, said we wont write a single topic try to book. You have chapters on time but we both write a single topic. Why was that. Tonight i really dont know. There are concerns or interest about and finally the deck in heels and i said it is time to do it another book on it from china as it is becoming greater then it was way back when the transfer was published in 2000. Scenic is very timely. Let me ask you about this title. It is deceiving the sky and they go on inside communist chinas drive for global supremacy. The second is very clear and understandable. What is deceiving the sky, would that come from . The communist china and ancient strategies, and many people know the sun tzu, the famous strategist who comes from what is known as the warring states era, this is like 400 to 200 bc. Theres also a book called the 36 strategies. Author its not quite clear but its a compendium of military strategies that highlight their power to defeat his or her power. Is beijings legal today. Breaker strategy is called to see the sky to cross the ocean. It goes back to alleged in the legend is that the emperor of one of his generals wanted the emperor to go to work with the neighboring house. In the emperor was reelected. So the general arranged for dinner at the home of a wealthy cousin. And when the emperor arrived he set into the house, and he felt his move. He realized it was in the house. It turned out to have been about. So the emperor was then selling honestly with the general to this neighboring province. He had to decide joy go to war with province or to return home and decided to go to work. The point is that the general and yet even deceive the sky and face legend, the sky is the emperor and ace considered a godlike figure. Yet even the sight of god in order to achieve your objectives. To me this is exactly the strategy the Chinese Communist party in beijing are using today specifically directed at the United States. I was struck by the fact that you dedicated the book to the Chinese People. Before we go into the content of u. S. Policy towards china, tells you why you decided to dedicate the book to the Chinese People. I think Chinese People need to be liberated from the communist regime. We dont, i remember doing a debate in new york city years ago and there was both of china was a threat. On the side no one said china wasnt a thread was a businessman. He came up afterwards and said ive been doing business in china for 20 years have never met a communist. I was shocked and you should visit the Peoples Liberation army in beijing. The giant done in the past. There you will see all the Founding Fathers have communism. That is even now, so it is really i think important to understand this aspect that this regime is truly going after global supremacy in a way that it had a dent in the past. The work you know in beijing today. And you are before a chinese audience, and it was mentioned they dedicated the book to them, would you say to them. Is the big method china the Chinese Party is one with the people. The chinese colonel came to visit the Washington Times and years ago and i said look, my beef its not with the Chinese People, it is with the communist party of china. And he said zero no no, there is no difference. Between communist party of china and Chinese People. There is a huge like. 1. 4 billion people are enslaved into the system and there are as many as 93 million communist Party Members for the most part the people of china, do know that. They have tasted a little bit of prosperity mainly in nine cities and they have tasted a little bit of freedom, many of them have traveled the United States and so i really felt that i wanted to dedicate the book of frank the Chinese People from the communist party of china. At the beginning the book you go into how we got it wrong. In particular you cite back in 1999, that the tillage his Agency Issued report and basically the report minimized basically that china was a threat. But then you just oppose that with some 20 years later, you basically indicate that Army Lieutenant Robert Ashley had in fact indicated that communist ideology had not changed thatll as a motivating force for chinas ruler. And basically, the report that was issued then, really documented how and why china is the threat. In fact, one point that really struck me was a 600 billion annually in stolen technologies and intellectual properties. Rather substantial. So how do we get it wrong. What was happening in 1999 and then why 20 years later, it changed. Scenic i like tell the story the backend the late 90s, i was writing a story on the file. At that time depending on was more press friendly they would give you background briefings. So i went to dia and they have a background briefing which was fairly vanilla in terms of what they had to say. But at the end of the briefing, colonel came in and said the general would like to see you. The general was a director of bia and he said at the end of the table and told me that china was no threat. I was very surprised. I would expect the kind of, my question was to him why do you think that and he said basically because of their statement. This was assuming to me. I can understand from the policy officials who want to send a reporter for the possibility of intelligence. But for the top military Intelligence Officer to say that this is Nuclear Armed dictatorship which have missiles of our cities its not a threat, i really felt deeply that there was a deception operation underway. Fastforward a couple of years later and we revealed and i revealed in one of my earlier books, one of the top analysts at dia, turned out to be a chinese spy. He was passing information. I believe that it must chinas penetration of dia at the time it was giving this false information. General ashley, the current dia director has obviously taken a major shift. Thats a reflection of overall of administration policy. They paid an atomic citizenship shift in policy towards china by identifying it as a strategic competitor. This filtering is way throughout the government bureaucracy right now. Effectively pick up on that. The advent of the Trump Administration, in fact, back in december of 2017, when the National Security strategy was released. It does state that both russia and china are strategic competitors but he also defines china its not just only a strategic competitor, but also a threat. And you really document that in the book. Elaborate a little bit more on that. Sure. My view that the first step in finding solutions both of it is for policies or anything else, is to identify a threat. That went out understanding that, we will never be able to solve the problem of china. And so i looked at this and said what is it that makes up the threat from china. I spent a lot of time looking at chinese ideology, i look at their weapon systems there intelligence operations and their influence operations and financial warfare is quite an impressive array of threats. In my view, is the next potential threat like faced by the United States at any time in its history. But there was another dimension and that is in the Trump Administration the link has been made between american National Security and the issue of Economic Security that is really a centerpiece that has been developed to some extent you can argue some of that is on within terms of the approach it is very hardhitting. Its really having a Significant Impact particular at a time when china itself has been confronted with its own economic woes. So would you add so as not only the military component, not only Digital Power influence but also the economics of dimension that is absolutely essential here. Absolutely. I have an entire chapter on chinese economic warfare. Before i get into that, i wanted to. Out about this idea of a multi faceted from china. The reason that the threat has become worse, is that we, the United States has been engaged in what i describe as a 34 year gamble. Strategic campbell. In that gamble began on Henry Kissinger when alondra with beijing against moscow during the cold war. It was designed to basically help defeat the soviet union and again the u. S. At that time, bailed out and struggling communist party of china and but after the fall of the berlin wall the collapse of the soviet union, any sum of 91, there was never a reevaluation. So the engagement policy, with china went on kind of autopilot. And i was never reevaluated and became this great lakes policy we have to continue. And that really is been in normatively damaging. For example, let me give you the most concrete example. Engagement carried through several administrations both the republican and a really good during the bill clinton kinda reached a high. And at that. Bill clinton allowed our National Weapons laboratories, the Nuclear Laboratory to have exchanges with china. Within a few short years of those exchanges, the cia issued a conclusion that through espionage, china that secrets of every deployed warhead in the u. S. Arson. That was lost the secrets, which has never been fully resolved by our investigative agencies, but is clear that it happened, was compounded when the chinese spread Warhead Technology to pakistan. Pakistan then through the a coupon Nuclear Supplier network, proliferated that Nuclear Technology to north korea and iran, syria and libya. We found this out in 2003, when we took down the libyan nuclear program. Among the documents turned over to investigators were chinese language documents on how to design a small warhead missile. I cant think of a greater damage to our security. In Global Security that this engagement that didnt interest in the nature of the threat, from china. Other substantial. Diving into the economic lane as i was asking, just developed out of it because that particular piece, you made very clear the kind of threat that is supposed given time and kind of espionage activities taking place. But also, how is the economic instrument being route wielded in advancing chinas own agenda. Fear chinese economic threats derives from the fact they are trying to use their economic power to diminish the United States. Theyre doing this through several ways. Let me first touch on as you mentioned the trump shift in policy. What President Trump is done, more than any other president has alondra u. S. National security with Economic Security. And that is filtered throughout the entire government. What is law enforcement, intelligence, pentagon. Everyone is looking at the chinese economic thread. As you mentioned, the white house was very successful in highlighting the threat. They issued a report with a stunning title called chinas economic regression. There is a huge policy fight with bureaucrats staying we cant say economic aggression. We do reserve for you understand why. And that is where they to determine the based on the estimates, between 250 billion 600 billion annually in American Intellectual property and technology, has been stolen by china. No nation can survive and especially nation that is so heavily reliant on its technology innovation, with that kind of theft. So getting back to the soviet cold war, an analogy as you remember back in the Reagan Administration, the Reagan Administration did something unique towards the soviet union. The basically said we are going to block western technology to masco. His major contributing factor in the demise of the soviet union. Trump is basically doing a similar thing towards china. He is going to say, okay lets see how great the chinese economic miracle is. Once American Technology is blocked off. So theres been an unprecedented loophole of policies designed to prevent this flow of technology and in fact, i. Out in the book, this policy was launched in very early 2017, during a trump tower meeting, with the present newly elected president president elect trump. He met with the top executives in silicon valley, their main concern was how we stanch the flow of american knowhow to china. Thats where its begun. You feel that chinas predatory Economic Policy will be afforded as a result of this particular policy approach. Do you see it having the kind of impact it should. Yes very much so. The financial warfare, chapter of deceiving the sky. I. Out that in addition to the tariffs that have been posed by the Trump Administration, which are having an impact, china has taken a different tack and they are going after American Capital markets. Through those investments to raise money. As wale as to influence policy. Take for example investments by the california personnel Retirement Fund in chinese companies. Those funds could then say, dont sanction china because our Retirement Funds for their. This is happening in a largescale freedom happy to say that the administration within the past week, has announced that they are going to take steps to try and curb this very regulated Capital Markets which again, the United States is the unprecedented leader in all Capital Markets. The administration has been quite vigilant on this issue and negotiators are also have those goals and those objectives in correcting these predatory actions. As part of the negotiations robert lighthouse card and you mentioned are at the forefront of it. Pushy . Chinas leader goals and objectives . Is becoming a new mouth and tongue up until his extension to the operators of power, which took place around 2012 and 2013, the chinese strategy for the world began. Watch closely and saw the collapse of the soviet union. Their idea was lets be friends with the United States. So their main deception was they work a communist and not a threat, going back as far back as 1999 not a threat. The reason for that was the policy was minor time and builder capabilities. That has changed dramatically. They have announced his goal is the chinese dream. The chinese dream in my view is the really a communist party of china nightmare. This is where china is speaking to take his rightful place at the sole superpower in the world. So as not just that theyre spreading their own power and the communist system, and the predatory lending practices through the initiative but it also means in order to achieve that they have to go after the United States. They have to weaken their main enemy of the United States. There we see the policy of china to send the opioid fictional into the United States to masturbate tens of thousands of deaths to the opioid crisis. Is it true they are striving rather successfully and solidifying his own power base hes done that through the boat if you will, which basically says for live, he is also done that even articulating, the power of the communist party. He talks about the revitalization of the communist party. Do you see him in any capacity as being vulnerable. Sue mackey has consolidated power since 2012 through a massive purge it has been carried out on the offices of anticorruption but in fact thats a cover for power consolidation and he is instituted an unprecedented approach. Not just middle loophole officials are lowlevel officials but some of the most senior officials of the communist party and anyone perceived as arrival, and the pla anybody perceived as a potential rival is being eliminated. This has created great instability within china because the weight that chinas Party Communist party is structured, is pretty much like a group of mafia family. Where each mafia has an outrage and a network and so by purging some of these mafia families, it is creating some dive boat internal opposition to him. That said, he has strengthened the apparatus in china mainly Public Security. There are numerous Chinese Security organizations and security organizations. All of the modeled after the soviet which is again a Political Police and Intelligence Service that serves a dual function is both intelligence as wale as internal security. Select one of your chapter is entitled the coming space work. In fact, in the chapter, you discuss the prospect for war itself. And speculate that china that this cannot be ruled out. Please talk a pit about that and then its also discussed the allisons, the sanity strap. [applause] that the path that we are on, the word is likely. Military threat to china is based on what the chinese goal asymmetric warfare. Marcescens weapons. Thats what again going back to the states where a weaker power, if theres not trying to confront the enemy had him but priceline his vulnerabilities and special capabilities. Space warfare is one of those. Cyber is another and that space warfare is a real vulnerability for the United States because stasis of defendant on the multitude of satellite for candidate communications and finance intelligence military navigation and chinas and the strip that theyve developed an array of orphans. This is the Nonfiction Book i included a fictional scenario. Perhaps china could launch a worldwide kind of a pearl harbor missile attack of pearl harbor in their first base of that would be knocking out t Missile Warning signs. Because the u. S. Operates, very good eyes in the sky they can pick up signatures of missile launches anywhere on earth. And through attacking this and destroying as many as two dozen satellites, the u. S. Military could be crippled. Its ability to function again, we are the sole superpower right now but china is working to diminish that capability. What about graham allisons own thesis. Clear abuse of that. I dont mentioned in the book because i dont think its a valid assessment. I dont think that war with china is inevitable. This notion that in the past going back to ancient times, that a declining and rising power will automatically go to war, first of all, this is been a major propaganda theme from china. The United States and china as a rising the world. It is working to rise its power but if the United States must diminish, but we dont hear much is how china is trying to diminish the states. I still United States is definitely going to be the sole superpower and i agree with President Trump his strategy through strength peace through strength. Which goes back to the Reagan Administration which makes clay says if you would prevent a war, make sure that the other side doesnt miscalculate into settling into a war. This kind of way you disagree with the grant analysis strategy. Connect the also have a number of very interesting quotes read each chapter has a quote. For example, on the assassins space, you have a kernel, a chinese kernel staying quote to meet the requirements of the exceeding the United States and the work of the pla, should have assassins mace weapons with space attack capability. [applause] sierra china has that capability today. You have is you said a fictional kind of scenario but you do talk about the fact that it does have that capability today. This is one of the areas where china is ahead of the United States. The United States know terry set up a new space command. Guess what, they have no weapons. At least no weapons that we know china on the other hand, has an array very lethal and capable anti satellite 11 and we first learned this back into 2007, when china tested the ground lunch missile a direct descendent missile which targeted a weather satellite, a chinese weather site and the impact on that satellite and i spent an entire chapter explaining how the chinese lied about that. Its very characteristic of their approach. The satellite created tens of thousands of pieces of floating debris which are going to threaten both manned and unmanned spacecraft for probably 50 to a hundred years. Try to learn from that lesson. They took a little bit of heat from the international community. So the second thing that they have developed our groundbased lasers. The best way to attack an orbiting satellite according to the experts, is to use a groundbased laser. A highpowered. All you have to do to disable or to destroy, and orbiting satellite is to warm up the electronics or damage the centers or the optical cameras on the sink. That went out the same degree field. In addition to both missiles and lasers, theyve also developed medical core overcontrol satellite and have it tested a group of small satellites. One of which had a robotic arm which could reach out and grab or crash a satellite or knock it out of orbit. This is an impressive array of weaponry. And again they been developing it, for before 2007 in the u. S. Is now trying to catch up. Cement your book really documents many areas like that in fact, in the digital area, and cyber attacks, you begin with a quote in this case from the 1940s. However a debt. He says quote to achieve victory, we must as far as possible, make the blind, and death by stealing his eyes and ears. And drive his commanders to distraction by creating confusion in the minds. Some relate that statement to cyber. In chinese cyber . J cyber threat like this a threat, is another one of their asymmetric capabilities where they are on par or ahead of the United States. They have done a massive job of developing the ability to get inside networks can control networks in everything from our military networks that held will cut logistics we need everyone to move troops in and things to that battle fronts and most alarmingly, the chinese cyber threat has been detected inside of our electrical grid. Again, they call this cyber reconnaissance. In other words they are mapping the networks. The United States has roughly three electric power grids in the chinese have been detected in all three. The police is among military is in a crisis of conflict, they could basically turn off lights. Now we have 16 Critical Infrastructures in addition to her electric red in our Financial Communications transportation but when it really come down to, is the most Critical Infrastructure is our electric grid. If that goes down, we are in deep trouble. The scope and standard ten being the most concerning, warily, scale in terms of a continued to future chinese cyber attack. , save chinese threat today knowing 70 and going. We witnessed it in many ways. Its going to get worse when the chinese have stolen nasas amount of data in the block, highlight the case of soothing, and he was still a hacker and he operated network out of vancouver and successively broke into boeing and stole 3. 4 billion worth of research on the c17 transport. This is the military his frontline transport. A problem many of them. They not only, for as little as 300,000, they were able to steal this technology. Not only did they steal it, but they sent back to beijing where they turn it into the y20. Which is their brandnew transport. This is only one example. I did indeed guide. It is characteristic of the kinds of things are dying but there have been many massive cyber breaches. The most significant of which the office of personal management, where 22 million records of federal workers not just any federal workers, federal workers who are engaged in classified work. This is an amazing breach of and the government modified to adjust in the government millions of people who hold security clearances that their information was compromised. How could china uses information. They could couple it with Artificial Intelligence which is another area that they are working on and they could use it to identify key people. For example, in very interested in counterintelligence. So they would use it to find out chinese language speakers who would be part of the Intelligence Community that could target those people for recruitment or for other dirty tricks, things like that. On cyber front, they could use it to identify Network Administrators that key National Security agencies and target those people can learn their credentials and break in to those networks. Cement you have so many areas that you cover in terms of their engagement and where they deploy different kinds of technologies economic instruments, etc. This is throughout the book. It will really cover all in a time we have allotted, but let me focus on a few more. Give a chapter entitled, hightech totalitarianism. An interesting title. You mentioned that by 2018 that china had put in place a new technological control system based in part, you stay here, on an estimated 200 million surveillance cameras deployed about iran and the camera seemingly everywhere. As three poles and lamps and ceilings traffic signals, etc. Talk about this hightech totalitarianism. Begins the following on my Important Note that this is the reflection of Chinese Communist ideology. Total control and elimination of any person for institutions that is perceived as a threat to parties of power. It is become what they call a social credit system. Whereby just as you have a credit banking on your credit card refinances, they have a credit card for your politics. A friend of mine told me in beijing, where people normally cross the street, a person refused cross the street when i was in a proper crossing signals because automatically, he would be identified in his social credit would be diminished. There are also stories that people have done things that are perceived as if a regime or anti communist party, they are limited for travel. They cant take trains, they cant take aircraft, the people in china, or actually even going to the remote parts of the country and trying to buy credit from people there that dont have this problem. China is also a lot of this technology there on the surveillance cameras was stolen from the United States. Theyve even developed a addition to facial recognition, they have something that can actually measure the gate the walk. So they cant see a person his face, they can use a massive database and highspeed computing to be able to identify individuals through the gate. Learn about chinese software. Avoid use the Term Software is the smart power. How would you assess the soft power. We know they are heavily involved in Economic Development of latin america, middle east and africa. You see it is very effective. If so, why is it effective in your opinion. On this guy, they have expanded in a number of areas, i would say soft power is one, influence operations are another and they have expanded something called United Front Work Department which is the party unit which is because i Intelligence Unit that is responsible for advancing chinas Strategic Interests around the world. I think that one of the key features of chinese expansionism today is something i mentioned earlier called the belton initiative. This is again this morphed out of things ideology called the china dream. Now the Road Initiative is the private trojan horse of chinese expansionism. This targeted on the developing world. The way it works is that china goes into a poor country because we like to build a railroad for you and will even help you with financing. And they provide the financing and then they do it at exorbitant interest rates. Then when the professor comes back and says we are having trouble paying back this loan, attorney say wale that is a railroad now. Were taking it over. In that kind of thing is taking place on a large scale. Roman rule. Especially in the developing world. Plan view is that i see this as kind of a u. S. Encirclement strategy. Basically do take over and via the developing world is the way to answer the more developed world and that way exert power against the developed world. Youve a case in here concerning key west. Share with us what exactly happened in key west. Most people that are familiar with chinese intelligence operations, know about the two main places. What is the mystery known as mss, is the massive intelligence Political Police service. The second is the second half of the pla floor to file. That is recently been folded into a new military unit but this of the two was at the fbi has been chasing for years. Last year, something new. A young man had booked himself into a hotel room in key west and left his wallet and things behind had to cameras on him and then went to Naval Air Station key west. He walked around a security fence that stretched in the water and began photographing the antenna. The contractor in the face spotted him and immediately arrested him. The fbi came in and it turns out, that this was a new dive boat chinese five. The spy from the ministry of Public Security. Which i mentioned earlier is kind of the uber security service. In china today. Actually into file, so this guy was convicted and sentenced to prison and the officials involved in the case that it wasnt unusual that the ministry of Public Security had been dispatched a spy despite his facility which again is the key facility for counter drug operation its a major Intelligence Center there, who knows what exactly he was after but it again, and the counterintelligence business you can tell who motivation of these spies are by the targets that they are going after. Youve also talked about influence making. In this regard, one of the things that also takes place is that you have influx of Chinese Students in the United States, you also have the wheels to have a number of academic institutions that have the Confucius Institute and there has really been a flurry of the packs on those institutions that are taking resources from the Confucius Institute. Let me give you an example of the state of florida know there are a good number and senator norcal rubio, has come out very seriously against these institutions existing. Talk a pit also and describe what is going on here. Is in in your book, you do leap together specific capabilities specific capacity, technological capacity, but you also talk about ideology and the importance of ideology. Confucius institute again is another trojan horse. Its a method. It is been very effective and Chinese Communist party influence tool especially on american campuses. There are about 100 of these institutes and they are funded by the chinese government. Their objective is to extensively to teach chinese culture. Interestingly, the officially atheist army is party of china is using confucius as a tool of influence tool. And what is happened with these institutes, is that these universities which again are dependent upon scoring students, have become dependent on these Confucius Institutes and therefore there moderating the policies. Cant find a mini campuses courses that teach about the evils of the communist party of china. This party which is been blamed for the deaths of about 60 million chinese cents the founding of communist china. So as you mentioned, norcal rubio has, the more outspoken members of congress and trying to get universities to kick these institutes often again again the universities are reluctant to do it because they become reliant on it. So again you have this finance and influence power working together. And of course on the student and an researches, there are at least 300,000 Chinese Students. Not all of them are spies, but all of them can be called upon by Chinese Security agencies to conduct work for them. In fact just recently there were interest of the Chinese National in the United States was involved in what was known as the thousand talents program. This is one of the chinese governments big programs to get officials of expertise to go from the United States to china. There is much of the first time in the indictment of this case that this chinese official was working with one of the Confucius Institutes on university up in massachusetts which its not identified but most likely was mit or Massachusetts Institute of technology. Speak. Military might, weve touched upon the number of areas but lets go to military rights. Clearly the chinese are investing in their navy. And also many countries in the region have been very concerned about what theyve been witnessing in terms of the island of south china sea, the dispute but also about the investments in significant investment in the military. Where is it out. And how would you describe it. I just on this a little bit earlier in the Chinese Military threat comes in two forms. The conventional Unconventional Warfare and the nuclear. And you admission the nuclear right. Civic right. Basically they have developed an array of new weapon systems. I can remember covering way back many years ago, that the chinese through a spy case in california stool details on the Battle Management system which is the huge phase array radar that is at the heart of our modern navy and a select. They combined it with chinese and Russian Technology and now, theyre cranking out hundreds of types of warships in terms of submarines, again they are behind United States in terms of quietness. In the severing warfare, how part of why its your submarine is, is the most important thing. But theyre getting quieter. On the nuclear front, it is a major challenge in the sense that the Nuclear Threat is increasing exponentially. And we know very little about it. We have through arms control the cold war as you know, we were able to engage the soviet union to find out things about the Nuclear Arsenal and that was forged for stability. The chinese have refused to engage in armscontrol debate or negotiations with the United States and the reason is, they believe that any discussion of their nuclear deterrent, one or minus current deterrent value so we dont know both of they have 600 warheads or both of they have 1500 warheads or both of they have 10000 warheads. But we do know is that we have the great underground wall. This is 3000 miles of tunnels that are used for both storage and production of nuclear weapons. So the Nuclear Threat from china is going. It is compounded by an advanced missile system. This is another assassin case weapon that is called Hypersonic Missile the troubles at mach seven for about five or above. Which is 7000 Miles Per Hour and it can literally outrun her Missile Defenses. That is the purpose of having it. In addition to being able to have that, has the capability and very difficult physics environment to be able to maneuver to its target. Chinese have developed this as a conventional warhead. Perhaps anti ship missiles as wale as a Nuclear Delivery vehicle. Five g in rahway. Major topic of concern. Also is been front and center in terms of phone foreignpolicy were the secretary of state mike pompeo has raised this issue with many of our allies. Some who have taken measures against such technologies. And by the chinese and others who havent. They have a listen to. And theyre looking down that path. Explain the concerns about roughly in five g. Five g its not simply an advance from four g to five g and telecommunications technology. It is a revolutionary step above what we are currently doing with their handheld devices and it requires an infrastructure. Chinese are seeking to corner the International Market on five g technology. And they are making great strides. This back to hightech totalitarian sam wright. There are a few giants in chinese, many of them have been sanctioned by the United States quality technologies, is the most concerning. It is a state run company masquerading as a private company. Its leader was a former pla electronic to art fair extrovert and now there is a huge battle in the trust administration has indicted the cfo. Being she is being held in house arrest outside of vancouver canada. There is a case against her which shows that while way has been illegally conducting business in iran. Its kind of a backdoor way to try to deal with the wally threat. So far u. S. Efforts around the world have not succeeded in getting as many allies as they should be about this technology, one way the United States has been influencing others not to use huawei technologies, which can be used for intelligence gathering, that is really the key concerns. But they have said that United States will not Share Technology for not share intelligence with key partners and allies that have while way technology. Routers and things. And the reason is that there is a belief in fact is more than a belief, weve learned from this note of documents that National Security agency was able to penetrate Quality Equipment and actually spy on the spies. The chinese were spying on. So you know that there in addition to that there is is known as an intelligence law which requires Allstate Companies in china, or excessively private companies to provide data for chinese intelligence and security services. Two less things, one of which four affairs, years back, loophole conducted a poll, and loophole the question was is russia geopolitical challenge or threat question and it was interesting because half of the Foreign Policy experts, basically in varying degrees at the desk. With the other half, focused on china and very specifically said that no, its not russia, china. Lets take those look at both. Youve covered both in youve written about both. So we are on the scale do you fit. Where is china in west russia. In terms of geopolitical threats to the United States and our allies. In terms of magnitude, china is by far the greatest threat. This was a little confusing in the truck administration his National Security strategy and National Defense strategy where they have coupled both china and russia together. Again this been a very bureaucratic ploy for many years to try and diminish the chinese threat by elevating the russia threat. The foreignpolicy community and the Academic Community is on a kind of autopilot when it comes to russia. This based on the cold war. During colder, we fielded numerous experts on the soviet threat. And they continued. So theres kind of a russia threat and culture within this community. That is rapidly changing. Again there were much fewer trying to experts. The language was more difficult, the culture was more difficult, that is changing happily now. I was recently at stanford where i heard an academic there who its not necessarily concerned about the china threat any reeked of bunch of reporters. He literally said that i am really afraid of what is happening as we see this emerging threat from china. The other thing to look at is the chinese economy is probably sometimes larger than russian economy. Im with the russia comes in is they are developing a series of Vladimir Putin his doomsday weapons. Hypersonic missiles, Nuclear Power cruise missile, massive large icbms in a number of very threatening when the weapons. The russia threat however, is limited to Vladimir Putin and his regime an effect on the recommendations i make in this guy, is that the United States should play the russia guard against china. We need russia as an ally. That will not happen as long as glover pudding is in power but you know, russians have said, gluten could be bought out. And given back his civilian studies taken from russia. You put forth a number of recommendations. At the end of the book. What are some of your recommendations as to how we can tackle this challenge. The key recommendation is for the u. S. To recognize the true nature of the china threat. Really be clear china much more than a strategic competitor but actually as an enemy of our adversary. National security and Defense Strategy took important steps in identifying china as a strategic competitor. To me thats a halfway measure basically is the soft to the probe engagement and probusiness community for say lets just keep trading with china fearless just keep doing business with them. The other problem is after 40 years of engagement our economy is so intertwined with china that is beginning to change. A lot of businesses are cooling out in the looking for other markets. India and vietnam and places like that. And so i think it is time to declare china and we do that, we say china is the adversary, that will go a long ways towards helping us decouple. Another recommendation is to create a parliament in echo. Disorganized, proto right chinese around the world and bring them together once a year as ideas and policies for reforming the system into a democratic system. Have them meet in the publisher and distributed electronically in china. These are very simple things we could be done. The other thing i talk about is expanding Missile Defenses. We saw in the case of south korea, seven the United States deployed the theater highaltitude area defense, a very effective antimissile system. The chinese punish south korea to the tune of three to 4 billion causing problems for them. This is the sign that china its not and doesnt like his Missile Defense because they are military is so thisll oriented but they have so many different types of missiles. So lets start deploying this missile throughout the world. In mongolia, in india, and southeast asia, and australia, and all of these places and lets really this will china mitigate the China Missile threat. Where does india fit into the strategy given india so objectives in the region and also, going back to the issue of russia say, just a little bit more about where russia might fit in. Are you concerned about a closer chinese Russia Alliance that is emerging. Some experts think that that is happening in other experts after that and say that is not happening. And what happened. Person india, the interrelationship with United States is growing. India is kind of like United States in that they have had this decadelong debate about china. With pro china and its a China Communist Party his concerns. This is the beginning to wake up to the china threat. They have the border dispute with china and they are very concerned and what i talked to any officials here, is the main National Security threat for china. For india. As russia, and China Growing closer together. We have seen in the past couple of years and in fact, just within the past few weeks, some joint exercises. Military exercises this is kind of unusual. Rusher has been having largescale exercises. I think the russians are a pit cautious about the relationship with china traditionally, russia had feared china taking over its far east and the Russian Far East which is very vulnerable. Low population and a few defenses. So there has been a lot and couldnt has alondra with beijing, basically is an anti u. S. Motivation. It is a concern to see the growing alliance between russia and china but as may focused as an anti u. S. Alliance. If you to pick out, vulnerability of china will you think is china most vulnerable one. I think the most vulnerable on the regime limits legitimacy. Chinese are going to be celebrating 70 years of communist rule and its not and should not be a cause for celebration. Again we do look back at the massive deaths that have been because, theres a book published many years ago called the black book of which estimated the debts from communism to be 60 million people. This is the legacy of the communist party of china. They need to be held accountable for that. I think by exposing them out and exposing the true nature of the communist claim, that would go a long way towards really bringing about a Democratic Change peaceful Democratic Change in china. Soon i can build let me ask you if impeaching a book to policymakers, when you want them to know about this book. What is the most essential top three points and message that you want to leave with them. This is the most important book that anyone can read about the china threat. There are basically three things or two or three themes with the main one is china is the Nuclear Armed dictatorship that is growing stronger and more threatening. And second, weve really missed china. Our intelligence have misted our policy commit the has misted we really need to admit that. I think that we are starting to see a much greater debate and policy circles about that. This is the key. Thirdly, weve got to bring about a peaceful Democratic Change within time. That is ultimately the way to mitigate the threat of china. Is to bring about the end of the communist party in china. Of course things Main Objective is to keep the communist party car and ultimately to become a global hedge. Where supremacy and dominance over the entire world. Builders, thank you so much for coming today and much appreciated. And let me just start from what we will be. Deceiving the sky inside communist china drive for global supremacy. It is certainly a fascinating book and you have really done a lot of work in research as you have put into this. So thank you for coming today. Thank you. This program is available as a podcast. All actors programs can be viewed on our website apple tv. Org. That will be in order. For 40 years, cspan has been providing america unfiltered coverage of congress the white house, the supreme court, and Public Policy events from washington dc and around the country. You can make up your mind. Created by cable in 19801979, cspan2 has brought to you by your local cable or satellite provider. The span, your unfiltered view of government. You are watching the tv on cspan with top nonfiction authors every weekend. The tv, television for serious readers. Starting on just a minute book to be National Security Agency Contractor edward snowden, talks about exposing the u. S. Government mass surveillance programs and having to go into exile as a result. 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