Transcripts For CSPAN2 Neil Gorsuch A Republic If You Can Keep It 20240714

Good evening everyone. My name is john hi bush and i have the honor of being the executive director of the Ronald Reagan president ial foundation and institute. Thank you all for coming this evening. If you would, in honor of our men and women in uniform who protect our freedoms around the world, please stand and join me for the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of america. And to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you, please be seated. Before we get started i would like to take a moment to recognize some special guests we have with us this evening and i will begin with our board of trustees, we have with us governor pete wilson and his terrific wife gail. [applause] from North Carolina all the way North Carolina mr. Ben sutton, ben, thank you for coming. Former congressman retired but just as as ever, alton ganguly and his wife jm. [applause] onto tonights program, ladies and gentlemen, it is my honor to invite fred ryan, chairman of the board of trustees of the Reagan Foundation and institute to our stage. Fred b. [applause] good evening everyone. Welcome to the Reagan Library. Thank you for joining us for what we know will be a fascinating conversation. We are honored to have as our special guest this evening, justice neil gorsuch. Its generally understood that after you go to Senate Hearings to be confirmed the Supreme Court you never have to answer questions again but you dont want to. Instead, you get to ask the questions. But Justice Gorsuch we appreciate you making an exception for this evenings interview. [laughter] i promise i will do my best to make it a better experience than the Senate Judiciary committee. Thats a low bar, i know. [applause]. If you see a copy of Justice Gorsuch book you know he will have he had two collaborators, his former clerks jane nitze and david fetter and we are pleased to have dated in the audience with us tonight. David, where are you . And we are honored that david is joined by his grandmother whose very special to us, bureau where whos been a dolson at the Reagan Library for more than 20 years. [applause] i would say you should never underestimate the power and influence of our dolsons if they can bring a Supreme Court justice to the Reagan Library. David and vera are not just Justice Gorsuch only links to Ronald Reagan in 1993 and 94 Justice Gorsuch surged as a clerk to Supreme Court Justice Anthony kennedy whose president reagan third and final appointment to the high court. 23 years later Justice Gorsuch will become the first court doubleclick test posted alongside his former bosses follow Supreme Court justice. David, i hope you are taking notes. Through this lineage today Supreme Court reflects the reagan legacy. It was no secret what president reagan wanted the legacy to be. Americas courts, he said, should interpret the law not make it. The role of the Supreme Court in his view was to make sure the principles of law are based on constitution. Justice gorsuch book is new book is practically a user manual for the faithful interpretation of our constitution. Its also a wakeup call about what we might risk if we stray too far from our constitutional principles. The title of Justice Gorsuchs book is a republic, if you can keep it. That phrase is how Benjamin Franklin is to have answered citizens questions about what type of government the founders had created have the constitutional convention. With his response, franklin was trying to convey just how fragile our constitutional liberties are and how vigilant our citizens must be to preserve them. Its the same caution the president reagan urged in his famous line freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. During tonights consummate dog conversation we look forward to learning what americas courts and citizens can do to preserve our constitutional freedoms for the next generation. Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming to the Reagan Library justice neil gorsuch. I hope i do all right. [applause] thank you, that was a very generous introduction. Justice gorsuch, we are honored and delighted to have you here on the day of publication of your book. I am so happy to be west of the mississippi. [laughter] thank you for having me. Its been something ive been looking forward to to see this museum, ive never been and its been a real treat. In q2 john for a wonderful tour. Your book opens with an interesting series of events surrounding your trip back to washington on the occasion of your announcement of the announcement of your nomination to Supreme Court and in many ways it reminds me of the screenplay of an action novel. Can you share a little bit of that with us. To say that it was unexpected doesnt begin to capture how it felt to me and my family. Ive got a few stories to tell but i will just share one with you. Its kind of illustrative. Not only did we have to sneak out of our hometown in iowa colorado with 4000 hardy souls we had to sneak into the white house. And they took us into the kitchen. And there are still bits down there, you probably know this better than i do, the scars from the war of 1812. Bullet holes and fire marks. Where marble had been burned. Then the president was gratian enough to lend me the lincoln bedroom as an office for the day. Wow. I sat writing my remarks for that evening at a desk where the gettysburg address six. The president gave my wife, who is an immigrant from england the use of the queens bedroom across the hall. And she was allowed one phone call. And it had to be someone back in england, could it be anyone in america so she called her dad she said dad, you will believe it, its going to be neil. And its about to happen. He said, oh honey, ive stayed up very late, it was very late in england, and even announcement in the east room he said, ive been watching your Television Program over here and there is another fellow, dear friend of mine whos a they caught on tape driving toward washington so its not can be neil. [laughter] inlaws, right. [laughter] louis said, dad, ive im in the queens bedroom, i think its good to be neil. [laughter] she said and he said, but honey, the other guy could be done the hall. [laughter] so thats a bit of feel of what was all like. And leaving your home in colorado was also a little bit of a covert operation. It was and i told that story in the book. What really followed it, fred, it was a big change for me and a shock was just the loss of anonymity. I resided as a private citizen more or less peaceably and happily in colorado and all the sudden everywhere and be recognized. I must say, everyone who comes up to me has something nice to say. [applause] great to hear. And they say i voted for the president awarded against the president and i wish you well. I love our country. I lower courts and a liver constitution. Then, if im looking particularly forlorn that day in the line of starbucks they might tell me a joke. But the one moment that really captured it for me was i was taking planes back and forth to meet all the senators in washington, i didnt know about that i didnt bring enough clothing i had to have a buddy go out and buy me some more shirts. I caught pneumonia on the way back and forth it was so much. Im feeling sorry for myself and for no good reason, im the luckiest guy i know. But we were in the plane and a bit of turbulence and i was seated next to a little girl probably six years old. She didnt know or care who i was but she was scared and she wanted to hold someones hand and she asked, may i hold your hand. And i said, over course. He reminded me of my girls that age and then the flight smoothed out and she said, would you like to draw . [laughter] and we spent the next 2 and a half hours drawing and coloring. And i think those are my favorite 2 and a half hours the entire process. [laughter] [applause] the sweet part was that afterwards after that happy moment of anonymity her mother had been behind us and i didnt know that, she had recognized me and she made sure that a thank you note was sent to my office two weeks later and it was drawn by that little girl. To stick figures in front of an airplane. Saying thank you for the phone. Thats what america is about. And that to me is what i got to see when i lost my anonymity, we got to when god take something away he often gives you something in return and thats what i got to see, its a real privilege. [applause] you did a previous book on quite a different subject, could you tell us what inspired you to write this book and especially the selection of the franklin quote for the title. Unresolved during the confirmation process that i wanted to Say Something about america and the constitution and the judges role in it. The confirmation process changed a little bit back when president reagan nominated Justice Alito to the court, my predecessor, the great man spoke to pipe during his hearing. Before the senate. I dont think we will see that again. My old boss byron white, for whom i clicked, the only other justice from colorado, his lasted 15 minutes. Thats about how long my hearing lasted in the 10th Circuit Court of appeals when i was nominated for the first time, second time was a little different. [laughter] during that process i came to feel that some basic things about our country we need some reminders, we all do, all of us do. About the wonder of our constitution, how blessed we are to live under it. How all of us have a role to play in a republic. Its not supposed to be run by a small group. Its we the people. Thats the first three words of the constitution. I became concerned during the process that some people think judges are just like politicians that we were capes rather than robes. Its for us to solve every problem and when we rule a certain way, we must like that personally rule four or just like that kind of person he rule against. In all of that was just so foreign to my lived experience as a lawyer and a judge. Lawyers ive admired, judges ive admired, they know that law is not politics. In that judges are not supposed to be politicians. And that our constitution is the greatest charter of human liberty the world has ever known and its a great privilege to do nothing more than to upholding and pass it down to the next generation. Thats what i wanted to write about because thats my experience in the law and i want to offer folks a little peek in my life into the court and how a judge thinks so you can see for yourself how different it is in a politician. Politicians are elected to do your will, judges are not elected and their job is to exercise in legal judgment, not will. Its right there in the federal escapes our association thats what i wanted to talk about. [applause] and fred, when i dug into it further, i came to learn that we do have a problem, 30 of americans only 30 of americans can name the three branches of government. About another third can name one. And 10 of americans apparently think that abserves on the United States Supreme Court. You know her as judge judy. [laughter] i respect judge judy, i like judge judy. But since she is not one of my colleagues. So i wanted to talk about these things and before we go another step further i want to say, i was joyfully able to do it with two of my wonderful law clerks and david fetter is here, janie nitze is not but let me just break on them for just 10 seconds. Please. This young man comes from a family of mexican immigrants and holocaust survivors. He saved up his penny attending cal poly as an undergrad. So he could achieve his dream of attending Harvard Law School. Which he did and graduated first in his class. [applause] janie is every bit as special. Her family escaped communism czechoslovakia, she came here, managed to go to harvard, dog a agot degrees in statistics and physics, wracked her way to Harvard Law School as well as david did. When it up clocking for me and sonya start amar. Those of the people for whom i write this book and joyfully able to work with and that give me such hope for the future. Thank you. [applause] both of them served as your law clerks and i know you have some simple rules you give your law clerks could you share those with us . When i go to my view about the judges role in the constitution, they are really simple. I told them if you do these two things will get along just fine this year. I dont care how you come dressed to work, i dont care more or less what hours you work, though i would like to see you from time to time. [laughter] but i just have two rules, first, please dont make anything up. Just follow the law as faithfully as you can. Ask the judges job. So help me with that. Thats not enough figuring out what the law is. What those words on the page mean. With the original meaning was in applying them to new certain circumstances. Thats hard. Rule number two is when people start yelling, asking, begging you to make stuff up telling you you are a terrible person if you dont make stuff up, telling you worst of all they might not invite you to their cocktail parties if you dont, just refer back to rule number one. [applause] [laughter] [applause] thank you. Getting into your book, one of the major themes is the framers visions of separated powers. And the dangers of blurring those lines of separation. Can you talk a little bit about why thats so important. We all know our First Amendment rights, Fourth Amendment rights, we know the bill of rights. And we know how they contribute to our liberty but i sometimes wonder if we dont appreciate enough separation of powers and how important it is. Many countries have wonderful bills of rights, north korea is my favorite. [laughter] it promises all the rights you can find in our bill of rights. Every one of them and more. Free education, healthcare, and even my favorite, a right to relaxation. I dont know how thats working out for the Political Prisoners in north korea but the point is, madison knew this when he wrote the constitution those are just promises, he didnt even think we needed a bill of rights if we got the constitution and the structure and separation of powers right, he knew that men are not angels and that the key to your liberty is keeping power separated. I am a ninth of one third of the federal government which is one half of the governments in the country. Divide power. I think what happens when we ignore the separation of powers has sometimes been forgotten and i know the separation of powers sounds kind of academic and wonky and it did to me when i learned High School Civics and was bored by it. But as a judge ive been a judge for a while now. Especially just in the day in and day out cases in the 10th circuit became to see what happens when you blur the lines of separation of powers and real peoples lives. What happens when abmadison wanted lawmaking to be really hard at supposed to be public process two houses of congress responsive to different electric sector for time. Ha thats how he thought minority rights would be protected, most of all, more than by list of promises in the bill of rights which he did after everyone made them but whenever he feels necessary. What happens when you take that process and put it into the hands of the executive branch. The executive branch is supposed to apply the law, to force the law, not make the law. When madison had in mind for enforcing license if you can make it through this difficult process it should be vigorously enforced. Lets put all the power in one persons hands. What happens when you take out 435 elected representatives and put one person in its place. Anyone who exaggerate but what happens when that power is delegated. Small business in colorado, mom and pop type operation, provides nursing care inhome nursing care. Its a good size business. They are find 800,000. Then leader turns out many years later through litigation that they comply with all the rules in place at the time and that the agency was propagating so many new rules, laws, enforceable criminal sanctions, some of them. But even the agency couldnt keep up. I asked my law clerks, how many of these criminal regulations are out there books ab they said that academics stopped counting many years ago when the got to over 300,000. All right. Thats one example. What happens when the power to judge is transferred to the executive branch . I have veterans who come before me, i have immigrants who come before me who when i look at the law, they win. They deserve to win. But we have doctrines that say, judges, independent judges should defer to the interpretation of the law by an executive bureaucrat. Even though i think the bedroom should win, this abafter ruled the other way. What happens to your right to an independent judge . What happens to our right to participate in a lawmaking process. It supposed to be a republic. Thank you. Speaking of the three branches, do you feel the three branches are coequal . I hope so. Have they always consistently maintained the same role or overtime does one become more powerful than the other . I think one can question whether by virtue of a lot of whats happened in our world look more power those involved in the executive branch. A lot of the legislative power has moved to the executive branch and a lot of the judicial power has moved to the executive branch. Early in the book you introduce two important concepts, one regionalism in the application of the constitution and two, textualism in the interpretation of statutes. Can you give us a summary explanation on what these concepts mean and while they are important . Now we are really getting wonky. But this is very important to me. The term regionalism had not been ordered by any of my professors at law school until Justice School leah showed up one day to give a lecture and he introduced it to me. Its not something i fully embrace or understood even until years later and i became a judge. Regionalism all it is is a simple idea. That judges said abide by the words on the page the churchabf their role was to apply those words as they originally were meant and understood at the time they were written. Our founders decided on a written constitution thats what they put down, they put it down on paper and they said down the rights and obligations on paper. They didnt choose to leave it to a ball. If you want to change it to prescribe a process is called the amendment process. Thats directed by we the people. Not anyone else. Regionalism honors, i think, the richness of our constitution. They couldve done it otherwise they knew the english practice of an unwritten constitution, they rejected that. In real cases and real lives i came to see what happens when judges override the real meaning of the words on the page. Instead of pursue something they call a living constitution. As a judge i came to see that when we go that route your rights are often taken away. The ones that are there on the page to be found. Let me give you a couple examples. The sixth amendment, you can read it it says you have a right to a jury trial in criminal cases. In the right to confront your accusers. It doesnt take a scientist to figure out what those words mean in most cases. The Supreme Court of the United States and living constitutionalist decisions over the years has said that your right to a jury trial sometimes gives way. And a judge instead can try your case. Your rights diminished. Sometimes you dont have a right to confront your accusers. Sometimes a piece of paper written by a Police Officer can be introduced as a key evidence against you, enough to send a person away for 20 years or more. Cora motz one of the most infamous decision of the Supreme Court took a lot of rights away from whole class of citizens. Said the japaneseamerican citizens could be rounded up and detained during the duration of hostilities in the second world war. Without any due process. Without any recognition of equal protection obligation in our constitution. Judges thought they were doing something important, vital, keep peace help the war effort. Living constitution, evolve it a little bit. They ignored the words on the page. You will easily take things away but they put things in there that arent there. In the most infamous example is fred scott, that was the first case where the United States Supreme Court really eradicated apart from the original meaning of the constitution. They said that white persons had the right to own black persons as slaves in the territories of the United States. And that that was guaranteed by the fifth amendment due process clause. Scared that clause as long as you want, it aint to there. They put it there. And they thought they were doing something good. They thought wellintentioned, they thought they were averting a civil war. But here is a little secret. Judges make pretty rotten politicians. When they start exercising will rather than legal judgment they got it wrong of course. They wanted contributing to a civil war. For me, regionalism is all about recognizing that not all people in washington, i can say that now, i just had a birthday. [laughter] were never supposed to govern the continental nation of 330 million americans. Thats not what the framers had in mind. Its a republic and its for you to keep. Some critics over regionalism say that you cannot accommodate important Supreme Court decisions like brown versus board of education which desegregated american schools, can you explain how decisions are viewed as progressive like brown versus board could actually reflect an originalist approach . My friend Michael Mcconnell has written the definitive article on brown versus board of education and why it fits with the original meaning of the constitution. Im a complete subscriber to that. To me you look at the 14 the minute. It says equal protection of the laws. I have over my fireplace in my office John Marshall harlan the first Justice Harlan he was a sold abwhere he recognized the segregation is not consistent with the original meaning of the constitution. Looks pretty doubt and tired and haggard and i dont doubt hes pretty unpopular back home in kentucky where he was from. But he knew that segregation is not equal protection of the laws. The meaning of those words on the page equal protection of the laws might be one of the most radical and important guarantees in our law in all human history. Adds to the notion that a regionalism yields conservative results or takes us back to horse and buggy days. I say rubbish. Look at the decisions from the last term that i wrote, if you want to grade an originalist on conservative zoom is it in a small sense of conserving the original meaning of the constitution . You betcha. Does that lead to politically conservative liberal results . It doesnt have any political failings at all. For example, youre right to have your cell phone data kept private and originalist in the carpenter decision might very well be more protective of their rights there than the living constitutionalist. Double jeopardy, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and i were the only two dissenters and an important double jeopardy case this year. [applause] on originalist grounds. To confront accusers and have the jury trial i wrote 5 a4 decision this year upholding that right. Is that liberal . Is it conservative . I dont know but i know its in the sixth amendment. So i think people who been selling that line have a bridge they want to sell you two. [laughter] in the book you discussed the First Amendment as well as the spirit of original intent. Why do the founders believe that press freedom was essential to the success of our public . I think they thought all the freedoms were essential and i wouldnt say its my role to pick or choose among them. You may have your favorite right these days friday. The first is pretty high on the list. I will bet it is right now. [laughter] but my job is to enforce all your rights and not to pick favorites. Do you think now 230 years after particularly the First Amendment but are other rights enacted using the founders intent is being realized . I think we are doing a pretty good job of it. I think the Supreme Court of the website is very fine institution, we have wonderful people, the employees who work there are fantastic most my colleagues are delightful. The rule of law in this country i think is indeed strong. I know people like to focus on troubles of the day or this or that case but i think we need sometimes to step back and not just focus on the forest but on the trees. When you want to assess the rule of law in this country let me give you a few facts you want here probably in headlines. Let alone ab about 50 million lawsuits filed in this country every year and im not counting your speeding tickets. [laughter] we are pretty litigious bunch. We always have been. Thats part of the american spirit. In the federal system 95 percent of those cases are resolved by the trial Court Without appeal. I was a lawyer a long time, i love being a lawyer, you help people solve their problems, and often had clients unhappy with the results. Fair enough. But they accepted it as reasonably just, they had their chance to have their say, they were heard, they were listened to and they accepted it. Thats powerful. Five percent of the cases wind up going to Appellate Court like my old court of appeals 10th circuit. We sit in panels of three. Cant do anything without at least one other person cover 20 of the continental United States my old court, two time zones an incredibly diverse court on any metric you want to pick. I served with judges appointed by resident obama all the way back to Resident Linda baines johnson. We were able to reach unanimity in those five percent of the cases that appealed 95 percent of the time. Okay. You say what about the Supreme Court . I said, you realize we hear 70 cases a year . Those are the hardest cases in the country and those are where the lower courts had disagreed on the underlying legal issue. Thats why we take cases to resolve disagreements of people in california have the same rights and freedoms under our laws but as a people in new york. And everywhere in between. Thats our job is to resolve circuit splits as we call them. Fine. 70 cases out of 50 million. Think about that. Think about the sturdiness the reliability, the predict ability, the fairness of our rule of law, its incredible now lets deal with those 70. There are nine of us, not three anymore, appointed over about only five or 30 years by five different president s. From all across the country. The liberals of new abthe boroughs of new york continued to be represented. [laughter] out of those 70 cases about 40 are resolved anonymously. Do you ever hear about that . 40 you think that happens magically . Heck no. Get nine people to agree on where to go to lunch. [laughter] yet we managed to reach unanimity through hard work, a Mutual Respect and a little bit of fun along the way too. I got some good stories i could share. Dont hold back. I will share one in a minute. But people say, fine, 40 good for you, what about the others . I say first of all look up at 40 , that number has been more or less the same since the second world war. The only thing thats new is that nothing is new. Back then president roosevelt had appointed eight of the nine justices. Youd think they could do better than we can. [laughter] fine, what about the others . I say lets talk about the five afour. They make about 25 to 30 of our docket and that number has been consistent since the second world war. Nothing to get excited about here. People say, they always break down these conservatives and liberals. Heck no. This last term there were 10 different combinations of justices in 5 a4 decisions. You want a fun story . I would love to hear about you and your colleagues on the court. [laughter] i got a couple good ones. We got some, what makes this place work in large part is Mutual Respect. Sometimes fun. We shake hands every time we meet, thats the tradition that goes back to the 19th century. We have lunch together, not everybody, but theres lunch in the lunch room together during argument days and conference days. If you look at our calendar, thats a lot of days. We got to dinner together like normal people. And we have some fun traditions and we break some traditions too once in a while. Sonja stottlemyre came in one day after new york yankees had had a particularly good run and she had a robe on with pinstripes. [laughter] and new york yankees emblem on her chest. And we are in the robing room getting ready to walk out and some of my colleagues are like, is she going to walk out there right that . We get lined up to go out and somebody says, sonja, are you really going to go out there like that . She says, no but i was waiting for somebody to ask. [laughter] heres another one, we have a tradition of the junior justice has to have a dinner for the next new justice of the Supreme Court. Justice kagan through a fabulous dinner for me and louise. She knew louise loves indian food. And Justice Kagan happen to know a fabulous indian chef and he cooked up a storm it was fantastic. I had a tough road home when Justice Kavanaugh came on board. Id known and admired Justice Kavanaugh for four years and i wanted to throw him a good party. But i also knew that he is a meat and potatoes kind of guy so the dinner was going to be pretty boring so i had to do something in the entertainment department. After dinner i asked everybody to please get up from the dinner table and come down to the great hall of the Supreme Court of the United States suspect they will probably thinking it was a Supreme Court pat down there. Justice kavanaugh is a huge baseball fan and the Washington Nationals their mascots are these president s and they have giant foam heads like 12 feet tall or something. Its crazy. My wonderful assistant jessica went online and found you can read them. So we hired two of them. As everyone walked into the great hall of the Supreme Court of the essay that handed the chief justice the checkered flag and we had a race. I wasnt sure how that was going to go over. But i figured it was better to ask for forgiveness than permission on that one. [laughter] going back to her point about 50 million cases being filed, does that mean we have too many lawyers in america . [laughter] actually, one of the things i talked about in the book is access to justice. I do worry one lawyers graduate law school unable to afford their own services. Lawyers are way too expensive. It takes way too long to get to trial. When you get there you dont get a jury. Im a big believer injuries. Then just looking at how many criminal laws are on the books today. Some professors say anyone over the age of 18 might be a federal criminal having done something to break some federal criminal law. So yes i worry about access to justice. Two very important subjects to talk about in the book are citizenship and stability. I wanted to ask you a couple questions about those. Your book reflects on new citizens and the role they play in strengthening our democracy certainly value shared by president reagan. How do your experiences as a judge shape your views on this subject and as the husband of a naturalized citizen . I worry when i read that 60 of americans would fail the naturalization exam my wife had to take. When only 30 of millennials say they think its important to live in a bureaucracy. I applaud groups like the president ial libraries and others that are trying to do something about civic understanding. Because i dont know how you run this government if you dont know anything about this government. And if you dont care stop when i talk to young people who say its not important to live in a democracy and im a citizen of the world, they often tell me, well, im torn on that one, if by that they mean that i recognize and respect the dignity of each person, im with you 100 . But if you are telling me theres nothing special about the United States of america, the constitution you been bequeathed, our republic, and ask you to think again. I think we been given an incredibly special gift in our constitution. Jefferson said that if you expect in anger at people to be able to maintain a republic, you want something that never was in history and never will be. The truth is, republics are fragile things. Special things stop and they have checkered record in the court of history, often they flicker greatly in the dim quickly. Ours is already the longest live written National Constitution in history. We need to make sure that young people, all of us, this isnt a criticism of anyone, its a call to arms. Its part of my duty too. For all of us to recognize that yes we have our problems, im not here to tell you we dont, but weve also got a great gift and we all have an obligation to make sure that everyone in this country realizes they have this great gift and that they have a responsibility that comes with that gift. [applause] in your book you know nearly 70 of americans believe the country has a major stability problem. Putting aside politics at the moment but do you think that the level of stability in america and actually waxes and wanes or is there something today that causes us particularly to be uncivil maybe the internet or Something Like that . I think there are institutions in our country that are incredibly civil. I think airports are one of those places. I give you some example my own court. Theres a lot to admire there. Our republic is supposed to be a little raucous. You betcha. Thats actually what makes it strong. The marketplace of ideas, the testing of ideas. All voices can be heard. You only speak for the place you know you have a right to speak freely. And that it will be protected and recognize. Its in some way testament to the solidity of our rule of law and the fact that we all know we have a First Amendment right to speak. And thats great. If you are asking me whether we all could do better, all about, maybe maybe just a bit. Social media today i worry when young people say that they are dissuaded from Public Service because of the coarseness of our culture and the way we converse with one another. Report they been cyber bullied 25 of parents report they moving a school abmoving their child from school because of it. Yes i worry about stability. Washington had a great example. He was forced to ride out in hand 100 some odd rules of ability that the jesuits had laid down in 1595. They are full of good rules. One of them and some of them are kind of funny. It goes Something Like do not be so enthusiastic in your speech or come so close to the person with whom you are debating that you would do the other mans face with your spittle. My teenagers would say, say it all straight. [laughter] but there was a time when we taught something called manners and there was a time when we taught civics and there was a time when stability wasnt a bad word. For something considered too timid. I think we have to remember that those with whom we disagree love this country every bit as much as we do. Best rule i dont know if we need to go back to washingtons rules the best rule i was ever taught was taught by louises grandmother. Set its Pretty Simple you have to have a lot of regrets in your life, hate to break it to you you are going to do a lot of things you wish you had it. Say things you will regret. Things you left unsaid, things left undone but the one thing youll never regret is being kind. [applause] in your book you point out the importance of having good men and women pursuing Public Service. President reagan made no secret of his views on what has become you judicial confirmation process. Which employs tactics in his words better suited for campaigns and elections then for Supreme Court nominations. Do you think the process is working today the way the founders intended . You think im going to touch that one with a 10 foot pole . I can try. Im not going to touch the confirmation process. You believe in judges sticking to their lane. The confirmation process is assigned to Congress Article 1, im in article 3 now happy to be back home. [applause] i will say to young people out there, take a look at people like david and janie. They are not afraid. Dont be afraid we need you. We need your ideas, we need her participation. We need your help somebody has to run the zoo. Why not you . And let me tell you, the words dont hurt that much. When you know what you are doing is something more important than yourself. And what life can you live thats more worthy then carrying on our great constitution in this wonderful republic . No better way to live a life. Thank you. In your book you include tributes to two reagan appointees the justice he replaced Anthony Scalia and the justice you click four, anthony kennedy. Could you share what you think are major elements of their legacies and will these be enduring legacies for the Supreme Court . Sure. I will start with Justice Kennedy for whom i clicked. And later had the opportunity to become his colleague. First time a justice and clark ever had the opportunity to serve together. Justice kennedys legacy for me is what we been talking about just now. You will not meet a more courteous man who embodies all the professional values we seek to inculcate in young people in our profession today. He is the model of stability he is a great teacher and civics he is a prince of a man, a gentle man. I will tell you one quick story about him, ive got many but this is the man. I became his colleague, he said, you know neil, i like to work at home i dont get bothered as much there. Our it office will help you set up a home office. They said if you ask they will even give you a fax machine. [laughter] i had been his law clerk about 25 years earlier and i remember that fax machine. At any rate, when i wrote my first opinion for the court and circulated i probably did it after hours late in the day in the justice got wind that i circulated his opinion from his locker so he told his law clerk to use the fax machine and set it to him because he wanted to read it right then. The machine was broken. So he had the law clerk drive it out to his house. And i quickly got back a hand written note showing my opinion, first one, the first opinion of the Supreme Court of the United States. Justice scalia, a lion of a man in public life and docile in private. So much to admire there. Fierce originalist. Fearless originalist, unapologetic originalist. Im happy to follow in that mold. But while we agreed on many things, the justice and i occasionally had our disagreements. Came out fishing with me, fly fishing in colorado one time and we have very different approaches there. Id suggest to the justice, i know this river, i fished it my whole life and if you walk over there and gently unfurl your line behind that rock you will catch a trout. Well, hes the son of queens, he stops over there with all the enthusiasm of the son of queens and slaps his line on the water as hard as he can as if his enthusiasm will make the fish hungrier. And then he finishes, neil, i thought you said there was a fish there. [laughter] as indeed there had been. I have a wonderful reminder of Justice Scalia in my chambers. When he passed mrs. Gildea was kind enough to give moment mementos to all the law clerks and family members from his office. There was one thing left over at the end of it was a giant bulkhead with the justice named leroy. That he had secured on a hunting trip in colorado. With one of my friends one of his former law clerks is now a lawyer there. And mrs. Scully did not want leroy in her house. [laughter] she made this former law clerk paid to have it brought back to his house in colorado and it was sitting in a giant crate in his garage occupying space he wanted im sure for a car or other things. We were having lunch in the summer of 2016 and he says, you know neil, if mr. Trump becomes president from and if he nominates you, im got a gift for you. [laughter] honestly foolishly i discounted both of those things to zero. I did not foresee those things happening. And of course six months later how the world works. I get a call from mrs. Coolio she says, were about to have the first scully a law clerk reunion since my husband passed. Would you be my date for the night. Of course. About halfway through dinner my buddy the big grin on his face. Rolls out a gigantic crate and presents me with leroy. [laughter] and im very happy to have leroy watching down over my law clerks because it turns out we share a few things in common. We are both native coloradans. [laughter] we are both stuck in washington for the rest of our lives. [laughter] [laughter] and neither one of us will ever forget antonin scalia. [applause] speaking of your former boss, once had the tour of the Supreme Court to or from him he took me to the top floor and showed me the basketball court. Which is above the Supreme Court chambers and is therefore known as the highest court in the land. [laughter] do you ever sneak away to shoot a few hoops during the day . I like to ride my bike, i like to row and i like to ski i like to do a lot of things, occasionally i will go up there and i have some happy memories up there. My old boss byron white, who now is largely forgotten but id like to remember him a little bit, first justice from colorado there are two special places in the court when i think of him and that was one of them. He was one of the great athletes of his day, Rhodes Scholar, highestpaid nfl football player, leading rusher, i will think of it happened again at the Supreme Court. It would be neat if it did. Anyway, he had a meaty game of course. And we would go up there and play horse. Dwhen he was younger he used to elbow the law clerks and really take them down apparently. By the time i got there it was course. His a hand eye coordination was still so good he had a shot from the freethrow line over the back of his head that he could nail nine times out of 10. And he didnt mind taking your money what he did. The other place i think of him is down on the first floor of the Supreme Court of the United States we call it the first floor but its kind of a basement. Not a whole lot of windows. Its where they put you when youre gone. Hey your portrait there. I very vividly remember one day walking there with Justice White and he said, so, Justice Gorsuch, he liked to call his law clerks justice smith, Justice Gorsuch, funny how it seems now. So Justice Gorsuch, how many of these old dogs do you recognize . I thought about it and candidly answered, justice, i can probably identify about half of them. Then he said something that really shocked me he said, me too. Then he said something that kind of depressed me at the time he said, and thats the way it should be. And thats whats going to happen to me too. As a son in colorado i thought that was terrible and unbelievable. This guy was not only anfl player Rhodes Scholar is a war hero, south pacific. He was one of Jack Kennedys best friends. He helped desegregate southern schools with Bobby Kennedy surround the Supreme Court for 31 years, how could anyone forget Justice White. I want those hallways now and there are a lot of tourists staring at that portrait, and they have no idea who they are looking at. I think what Justice White was telling me, i would now know it was joyful it was depressing. The edges role is a quiet one. Its how upholding the constitution. Not changing it. Thats up to you if you want to do that. Upholding the constitution and passing down bequeathing this wonderful legacy and the joy of living a life in service of something greater than yourself, thats what he was trying to teach me that day. So i think about that a lot. We are just about out of time i have a couple more questions i want to get in. One is, in your book you talk about how important your family is to you, including her daughters, in fact, the book is dedicated to your wife and daughters. And the father of daughters i know there are many more here, heres a question for you, when they have the occasional argument that takes place between siblings a [multiple speakers]. How do you render your judgment . [laughter] my jurisdiction does not extend that far. [applause] speaking of young people, we have young people here tonight and im sure you are encountered by young people from time to time, if they say to you, im interested in future legal career, which College Major should i choose . Do you have advice you offered to them . I say find something you love. It will lead you what you want to go. Everyone says, and its absolutely true, if you find something you love to do, work isnt work. You will never work a day in your life. My grandfather taught me that. They love their work. One was a surgeon and had grown up impoverished and he come home after surgery and he get down on his knees and he pray for the patient he just had surgery on. He loved his work. Man of great faith. My other grandfather pulled himself up working on the trolley cars in denver both very Humble Beginnings he started a law firm during the Great Depression a great picture of him once now colorado boulevard a very busy boulevard on a donkey with his twin brother going to school. Dirt road. Great great men. On whose shoulders id stand. I would say, do what they did, i followed their footsteps, find something you love and Everything Else will work out just fine. One other thing. This is really corny but this speaks to young people and i care about and i love teaching young people, i miss it. I used to teach legal professionalism and ethics, that is not an oxymoron i promise. And along these lines to answer your question at the end of the semester i would ask my kids to spend five minutes writing their obituary. How they would like you to read. They would snicker at the beginning and probably deserved a few of those. But after five minutes the room was always deadly quiet. They had really come to grips with the question. Then i would ask a few brave souls to read out with a written and somewhat. Not one of them ever said, i was the richest lawyer in town. Or i had my name on the door were i brought in the most clients, or i had the fastest car or the biggest house, every blessed one of them spoke about being useful to their community, to their family, to their friends, some spoke to their faith. I asked my students, do me a favor, hold on to that, stick it in your desk drawer and when you are feeling blue, or you have doubts about where your life is going, take a look at that. Ask yourself how you are doing on those metrics, the ones that really matter. I follow that same advice myself. There was an inscription on a tombstone in boston was lost to it that i found in the old a burial ground. Where many of our Founding Fathers are buried. A beautiful inscription about being dignified in public life firm in public life and mild and affectionate and whole. That speaks to me. I keep that in my desk drawer and i look at it often. A copy of it is in the book. I want to ask you about your obituary but in closing. [laughter] decades from now when historians write about the court and your tenure on the court what do you hope they will say . I expect they will say very little and thats as it should be. My role is to handed down what i found, and that is work enough. Keeping our constitution is hard work. We needed great men to found it and we needed the civil war great men to keep it. We need good people who love this country to give their lives over to its service and keep it for the next generation. If i am forgotten, id say i did my job just right. [applause] Justice Gorsuch, on behalf of all of us here thank you for this incredible opportunity. Such a treat to be able to spend time with you and thank you for putting together this incredible book, which even those of us who barely made it to law school side it to be quite useful and im sure even more people who want to get a great understanding of the constitution and its application today. Thank you for making that. Thank you fred. Appreciate that. Thank you so much. [applause] tonight on booktv and primetime historian susan ronald recounts the life of publishing magnate condc nast, authors debate the influence of christianity on americas founders. Kate black and june rafael present their guide for running for elected office as a woman. Political columnist Michelle Malkin offers her thoughts on u. S. Immigration policy. In New York Times reporters kate kelly and Robin Proctor been in a highly publicized book police this week explore Justice Brett kavanaughs past and confirmation process. That all starts tonight at 6 20 pm eastern. Check your Program Guide for more information. Recently on booktv Author Interview program after words, cnn john everyone interviewed former Trump Organization executive Vice President George Soriano on his time working for donald trump. Theres this misconception out there that President Trump is a guy that doesnt listen to people. Hes a guy that steamrolled over other peoples opinions, he does whatever he wants. And it a guy that worked very closely with him on a number of projects for many many years, i think the truth is actually the opposite, im kind of taken back to an experience i had very early on in my career with him where we had just finished up a difficult day in a construction site there were a whole number of issues that we are dealing with, some things were going our way, some things we were happy about but it was a long tough day. We were just walking across a site, just me and him and he said to me, you know george, people will frequently asked me how did i do it . How did i get successful . How did i accomplish every thing i did. I tell them, look, its really easy, look around the world, i see what people want, i listen to people, and i just give them what they want. Give the people what they want. And give the people what they want. Its really simple, there are simple words but theres really a profound wisdom in that statement. Look around the world. This is the advice now that like you i have small children and when i talked to my son i tell him things like that. Dont just go through the world blindly. Look around, see what people like, see what people dont like, be aware of your surroundings. Because really that ability to listen and understand, its a fundamental aspect of i think what ultimately is to make you a success or failure. To watch the rest of the interview visit our website at booktv. Org and click on the after words tab. Or type George Soriano into the search box at the top of the page. Our host again this morning is krista tippett, host of the popular Public Radio Program on being and todays conversation will be broadcast on the show at a later date. In addition to her radio work, ms. Tippett is founder and leader of the on being project, curator of the civil conversations project and the bestselling author of among several other titles becoming wise, and inquiry into the mystery and art of living. Joining her in conversation today is