Administrative bloat in running universities. The ideological faculty. University enrollment is starting to decline because of demographic reasons and of course the whole of the issue of the Overland College dispute where the gibsons bakery was awarded 44 million in damages which was a very exciting thing and as people in the college are beside themselves. I think one of Charles Cousins went to over land and totally turned her into a marxist. So i am steve is a fellow at Governmental Affairs at berkeley and i hired steve back in 1991 he was our second hire. Lisa sawyer who was there when i joined pri. He and steve was a Ronald Reagan distinguished professor at pepperdine and a first conservative professor in a university of colorado bolder, 20132014. I think one of the most exciting things about steve, hes behind powerline. If you dont read powerline you should. The best things are the pictures. And every weekend we are laughing over the pictures. If you dont get it, you will. And one of johns conferences, it was great fun. He also clerked for Supreme CourtJustice Clarence thomas. Hes been a full vice distinguished chair in law at university in italy. And university of chicago chapman. Hes written several books. When his wife doesnt want to go on trips with him, his mother will. Theyre going to Matchu Pitchu in brazil. Please welcome them. [applaus [applause]. Yes, it is live. Does this mic work, that old thing. With john, i thought what wed do is have an initial conversation and propositions back and forth. You can throw out your own propositions and then well take questions from the audience and see where it goes. I thought better than giving standard speeches. So, sal give me a few headlines and i think ill dilate them slightly. So, the College Theme today, beyond the headlines i think are some, well, put it this way, one of my old mentors, samuel evans had the first law of paranoia, no matter how bad you think things are, when you look closer, you find out things are even worse than you thought. So in the case of administrative bloat on College Campuses, what people typically think thats whats running up the cost of universities, the number of administrators has soared much faster than faculty and theyre all paid very large salaries, and thats true. However, theres a second part of it, which is and theres been a little bit of work on that thats made the press and even the New York Times. The administrators tend to be even worse than the faculty when it comes to deranged radicalism and thats because a lot of these deans of diversity and inclusion, which, you remember diversity on a College Campus means that people think the different, but the same. And more criticized the ideological department. Your average college liberal professor is relatively sane compared to a lot of administrators. Thats especially true at private liberal arts colleges and sally made mention of the Overland College verdict. If youre not following it closely you might be wondering why did the courts find a college, a private college liable for the actions of students off campus . And one of the chief reasons was that the dean of students and advisor to the president for diversity and inclusion participated actively in the student protest, helped the students organized, passed out their flyers, sent lots of incriminating emails how awful the bakery was as reinforced the harassment about the totally bogus charges. The nice thing about america, we still have trial by jury and the jury in ohio didnt take too kindly to all of this. So, i think that the remedy and ill come back to this in a couple of minutes we should just about every university ought to fire half of their administrators, it wouldnt matter which half. Things would get better if you fired half of our administrators. I would say there are few universities in the last few weeks announced cutbacks in administrative positions and the reason for that is declining enrollment. Were already seeing a decline in enrollment and thats putting downward pressure on tuition. You havent seen the colleges cut their sticker price, but the actual price you pay is falling fast at a lot of universities. Thats going to get worse for demographic reasons. Think back 10, 11 years, and the world comes to an end with the financial crisis and what happened then, the birth rate fell a lot. The pool of young people that colleges need to draw to fill their classes is start to go draw down and thats going to go and the college know this and that will make a lot of them have to say we cant afford all of these 300,000 administrators. So well see, i hope thats what happens. Second thing is, weve got a lot of good social Science Survey data showing that college and university faculties, which have always been liberal for decades and decades, this is not a new things, always had a quotient of visible radicalism. My own view is thats where radicals ought to be. If they wreck a few English Departments thats better than having them out on the street. The problem with the university, at that their borders are porous and sometimes these guys sneak out. Who wouldnt have preferred that barack obama would have remained a law professor. Then he snuck out and was president of the United States. And there used to be some conservatives around. 15, 20 of the faculty overall and you always find one two or three, mostly in social sciences and humanities and that number in the last 25 years has dwindled dramatically and cut by about twothirds. Reasons for that are complicated and disputed. The point is that colleges are even more of an echo chamber than theyve ever been. And in practice, a lot of quick social science on this. Grow out of what we know as group think. The more people with a common opinion, especially an ideological opinion spend time together, the more radical they get. The more narrowminded they get and thats why you see these repeated instances on College Campuses of, you know, the students or faculty members or visiting speaker that strike anybody not on a College Campus of utterly unreasonable, too mild a word to describe it, completely insane and off the hook. So thats a big problem. I think it has two consequences. One thats obvious and wellknown, one less so. First consequence is, if you know the data, the number much students majoring in the humanities and social sciences has also been presume meting in the last 25 years. The number of history majors fallen off the cliff, english majors, philosophy. Science is holding its own, ought to do better in some ways. Sociology, economics is the one exception. Of course, thats the most robust of the social sciences and most successful and also the one you find the most libertarians and nonleftist professors. For the most part, i think thats correct. I think theres a connection. And some say students arent majoring in history, theyre concerned about getting a job, want to study stem and economics. There may be some truth to that. You could dispute that finding. I think the increasingly radical content of the social humanities and social Sciences Departments turn off a majority of students who are not radical themselves or leftist. Majority are not. They describe themselves as moderates to some extent. I mention economics. A curious thing is happening right now, i think is a canary in the coal mine. A lot of universities. Columbia, mit, im trying to think else, applied to the federal government to change their classification, i didnt know it existed. Higher education is classified and credited. Economics departments are reclassifying themselves as stem fields like engineering or physics or chemistry. Why are they doing that . Part of it is, even liberal economists who are data driven in their appearances, they look at the other social sciences and humanities and say we dont want to be in the college of arts and sciences with these loons. Wed rather be in a more rigorous part of the colleges. The canary in the coal mine. And especially big universities. Were moving toward a situation where youre going to have a university that is stem subjects, economics, business, prelaw to a ek extent in a way and the rest of the humanities and Goofy Social Sciences will whi wither and die, and people will understand theyre crazy people and no one fewer will want to be in. And a couple of remedies, ill discuss with john, i hope. Already mentioned firing administrators. Second find a way to complete competition within the universities. The and youre familiar with the hoover institution, and James Madison at princeton Robbie George founded 20some years ago. Arizona State University set up its new school on economic thought and political thought that independent of the traditional departments and now has a competitive curriculum of traditional departments and the faculty are not happy about that, but the Legislature Said this is going to happen. That was nice. Another idea thats been floated around is maybe somebody needs to step up and start a new university or two, a prestigious, elite university. We havent seen Something Like that since brandeis, which is 70some years ago and we can talk about that some and then finally, the i wont say craziest idea, but the one thats the most remarkable not the most remarkable, but really unconventional is, this is something the Trump Department might take up just to scare people. They say whats all of this fixation with a bachelors degree. Why dont we create some alternative way of certifying that someone is educated and capable, likely to, say, for example, the c. P. A. Exam, right, so you can take alternative methods of education. Online classes and study on your own, and the Kim Kardashian approach to passing the bar . Well, maybe. We should experiment with these things. Part of the story is the cartel of the accredited agencies which push colleges to the left and the nature of colleges, youre nothing if you dont have a ba. Create an avenue of the wider world who employ people will want to know. Right now a lot of people use the ba to define people to show they have the discipline to complete a created course of study, but maybe we should be boulder than that. I will stop there and see if you want to add. Sure. Contest, whatever. I want to thank steve and sally for inviting me to join you today. So, getting steve to join berkeley is probably the only thing ive done on behalf of ideological diversity at berkeley, other than continuing to exist and not leave the campus. [laughter] you be the judge whether its been successful and actually, i quite agree with the diagnosis that steve oh, let me also say im not a scholar of Higher Education policy so i think im here more because, like, you know, im like Robinson Caruso on the island. How did he survive and what lessons can we draw how he made it on the desert island. Im happy to share stories and lessons, everything i see from being one of the few conservatives at berkeley quite co comeports with what steve said about academics and bloat in personnel, i read a figure, for every one professor to the faculty theyre adding ten administrators in the last ten to 30 years. A huge rise in tuition, often subsidized by the federal government. Theyre using them to attract students, better dorms, you know, gyms, there are several universities that added water Amusement Parks to their campuses. I always thought eating bad food was part of the college experience, not i would not have met my wife if not for bad food in campuses because we had to go off campus somewhere to eat. But one thing i would add or maybe emphasize, that steve didnt emphasize as much, although i think he did mention it, is one of the i think one of the main problems with Higher Education today is the elevation of identity politics and racial diversity and gender diversity above all other values in the university. I think if you look at what the university was before this, and its not that came late. This is where it started and now its spreading to other parts of society. A Great University like a berkeley. Maybe a second kind of place like stanford just teasing. The deal was you wanted to have a faculty at that did the very best research for the benefit of society and at the same time you want students to surround those faculty so they could learn from those very best people. The best professors were not the best teachers. The best professors were the ones doing the cutting edge research. So we want excellence in research and then they were teaching the students who would be around them to learn how to take their place and do that. I think that has been replaced at most of the Top Research Universities in an effort to reach the gender and racial diversity goals. Once thats it, others are taking place, and universities are going to suffer. The story about over laland is great example. It wasnt just the administrator, it was the faculty to go after the lynch mob mentality going after this bakery which did nothing wrong as far as what ive read. And achieving diversity, bureaucrats being hired and at berkeley we spend many millions of dollars on racial and diversity bureaucracy. I think about one Million Dollars could put, what, about 50 undergraduates free through berkeley. Instead were spending taxpayer money on diversity and gender issues thats the tip of the iceberg. Every school, every university has an officer paid to do this, every time you do a search for a new faculty member you have a write a lengthy report how it meets racial and gender diversity goals. And terrible scandals in college emissions now. Look at Harvard College. There are one or two people came up to me before the event who admitted secretly they had gone to Harvard College like i did. [laughter] i cannot believe the amount of distortion that has gone on the admissions process just to hit certain racial diversity goals. Take asian students in particular, on the five criteria that students are measured on, they are in the top quintile of four and personality where asian students rank at the bottom. No stereo type there. Even though the harvard admitted that they had never been interviewed by the officer. And i think asians with no personality would come as a surprise to those in china and india, eating our lunch. And i differ with steves idea sort of disassociating i think that with diversity could live and prosper what theyre selling is a kind of credential that businesses use to hire because it shows that students can crawl through the mud and crap of universities and persevere, they can do anything that a corporation wants them to do. I wish that wasnt true, but Michael Spence won a nobel prize developing the signaling, and why do we overfund these left wing universities with the credentialing function, lets move the credentialing function somewhere else. I know they do things in germany and other countries, im not sure its a great idea, but my little effort at reform is sort of actually inspired by being one of the few conservatives at yale law school. We had something there called the federal society in law schools, which actually the head of berkeley federal society is over there, she just graduated. And shes alive, too. She didnt get killed off by anybody. And so the debating club, it brings conservatives ideas to law schools. Libertarian and conservative ideas. At yale thats the only exposure, the only time i heard about scalia and thomas was at federal Society Events not in class. One thing for reform is rather than complain about bureaucrats and how much money the university is spending is try to create the programs between speakers and visiting faculty to at least expose some students to conservative ideas and get a debate going. I think that might be and for those of you who donate to schools, the best thing you can do we all want to support our alma matters, you dont have to give a blank check to a university and say spend on building another lazy river Amusement Park to attract the best students. Instead give money in very focused ways to programs like i think the one that steve is running, another fred barber, who is going to help us run the program to bring conservative speakers to campus. And they can actually hear them and this is where the universities have to step up, in a setting where theres no riot, where police arent going to allow people who are so scared of hearing different ideas that they actually want to try to engage in violence to try to suppress it. Unfortunately, berkeley witnessed two of those incidents and its been spreading all over the country. So, thats where i think, you know, i love if you want to give money to a university. Im going to give money to the Campus Police department to protect conservative speakers on campus, that would be the most effective donation that you can give. Thank you. Well, let me go back. Actually i do want to say because its true that berkeley will never live down its long reputation going back to the Free Speech Movement of before, however, berkeleys actually quite a bit better, especially in a lot of the private liberal arts college, like overland, like lawrence, gotten in trouble. And harvard and yale, behaved disgracefully. And you know, when the left side were going to shut down ben shapiro, she said no, youre not. And she said, i will you know, the school is running a deficit, i will spend whatever it takes to make sure his free speech rights are vindicated and the event can come off. I was proud it ended up being pretty boring and dull. It is, however, i remember, how one of the problems with the campus at berkeley was hardest to cure is its got porous borders and i showed up and i realized the night before shapiro was going to appear, 2 00, the truck showed up and created jersey barriers and openings for crowd control and they were going to make sure they werent going to be sure they wouldnt have a repeat of the milo riots. And the rest of them were mad because she spent the money and shapiro the conservatives do get some blame here, i dont think responsible conservatives, but a Berkeley Students add a milo or an ann coulter, they want to get the most outrageous, most flagrantly provocative person. I kind of understand, but its sort of if students on the left invited people from the nation of islam to speak, right, theyre going to they do that sometimes. There would be a campus explosion. I think that conservatives should try to aim more like a ben shapiro, more responsible, people who arent just there who would like there to be a riot, in other words. I think the problem is ann or milo, they actually benefit, too, they have an interest in there being a riot and things getting shut down. Id like to see more like Heather Mcdonald and Steve Hayward appear and have a debate. Thats a good point. There was a good book becoming right how campuses shape young conservatives. Like two sociologists, they interviewed students at harvard and university of colorado bol boulder. Why do you get conservative students want milo or ann coulter at places like berkeley, not harvard, yale or others. Not because theyre elite Ivy League Schools its because of what they call con spic tus conservativism. You have Harvey Mansfield at harvard. And then you have a speaker almost every week. The reason ive had a speaker almost every year after the ridiculousness at yale because of the halloween programs, a lot gave to the buckley program. And thats why i went there tons last year. And so point is that for students who have no conspicuous conservativism, its understandable they want to give as i put it, the middle finger to the campus. And you find that conservative students at other universities, Arizona State with their new center, theyre less interested in the provocative model. Theyre more interested in having more serious debate and they now have, you might say a home, they dont feel backed up, isolated. Berkeley is trying to replicate that in our own small way, but thats an important point. Im going to ask you a question, steve. Even though i had this idea for reform at heart being conservative im a pessimist and i think that everything is going to break down and were just fighting a losing battle to maintain, you know, the idea that we should study the best thats ever been written or thought and try to advance the frontiers of knowledge, but its hard to see turning the universities around to admittedly, even if we have a program, people bring conservative speakers to serious. Having been at the berkeley campus, i just finished my 25th year, i cant see any way to turn the ship around. I think if anything in the last ten years, the left has added like another generator and engine on and turbo charged off into the wilderness. I dont see how we can prevent the direction things are going, im afraid to say. Well, first of all, i have the attitude of a late hungarian friend of mine who lived by the addage, things are serious, but not yet bad. That may be too optimistic. He was a college professor, by the way. Oh. Great timing. Yeah, perfect. Completely wrong. And so, a couple of thoughts. One is a good thing about human nature is that its on our side and it manifests ourselves in a couple of ways. One, almost all students grow up and start paying taxes. Thats a sobering moment for a number of students. Thats usually an educational moment. Not for all of them, but for some and the other one is, even in my experience is, there are some and usually its the brightest of the leftist students, theyre actually eager to learn Something Else and kind of tired of the conformity, the narrow conformity of the left. And so, i dont think it takes that much. Youre not going to turn it around, but i dont think it takes that much to create another dynamic. And thats mine at berkeley and the most liberal students told me directly they wanted to hear Something Else. And by the way they respond to it. I wont go off on it now, some point ive got to write an article about most conservative academics, its not just their ideology that differs, its their manner and method of teaching in the classroom thats different. And its not universally true, but at least ask more. I wont go into that now. Even liberal students understand and see that. I think this is actually true in larger stance, one of us is worth 20 of them. So, we dont need very many of us to have an effect on Good Students that are serious about their education in the humanities and so forth. There are several more dimensions i could go through. Ill give one angle on it ive had fun with, youve been thinking for the longest time writing an article i was going to call or would call one chair for ward churchill. I dont remember if you remember that guy. His name has kind of faded. Chairman of the Ethics Department in colorado and caught saying that people in the twin towers were and deserved it. They fired him. Not because of that, but they said there was plaguism, but the real reason it was embarrassment to the university. But why one chair for ward churchill. So many people that students flock to the radicalized department and political theory and gender studies and rest for all of their jargon and ideology theyre asking what is justice. They do engage the passions of students in a way that a lot of Political Science courses and socialology dont. What do you fett get in Political Science, not a straight forward discussion of justice. A lot of things that conservatives are good at, education the oldfashioned way talking to students who are trying to form their souls in a serious way and so thats a competition not just ideological and stylistic. Too much. Being a professor at law school we dont want anything to do with anybodys souls. Were trying to beat that out of them. Actually. [laughter] the soulless professor of the law, sure. Its interesting you see the hope in students. I worry more about the faculty and more from internal perspective. When i was hired there were still what i would call new deal liberals, professors who were liberal, but they thought, lets have a diversity we can agree with, ideological diversity because it was fun to have people of lots of different views. You know, socrates and plato are teaching they dont want everyone in the symposium to think like them. You want to advance by critical examination by as many different people and views as possible. I think thats disappearing if its not already wholly disappeared from most departments. Others in the science, the Hard Sciences and i think in a lot of these social sciences and humanities departments you have people who dont believe in ideological diversity anymore. They wont hire conservatives. I think when i retire, which will be when i die many, many years ago many, many years in the future, i hope because theyre not getting me out of there, although if there was a good buyout, i would think about it, but i would be shocked if they replaced me with another conservative. I think that the faculty today dont believe they think what theyre doing with diversity is just the right answer and so you would never have people who think the wrong thing. And i think that has a lot and the right thing these days is racial and gender diversity. Even though i think youre right, the students are hungry for lots of different opinions. At the same time i think you see faculties constricting what our considered legitimate points of view and arguments for faculty and scholarship. I think maybe we should turn to some questions a comments now . How were going to do that, we will take a mic and tim will take it around. I see a couple of hand in the back. I tell you what, im going to let you pick them, tim. But i saw the firsthand in the back so run back there. That seems to be the most active table. I dont know. Helen, you must have gotten into them about something. Okay. My name is mary anne and my late uncle who was at mit and at the et agent he said that the International Students office at mit has as much, as many administrators as the whole eta and that was in the 50s. The second thing id like to say, i do challenge mr. Hayward on one thing about that the english professors cant do that much damage than on the street. The problem is that there was such an english professor at uc davis who basically told students to go kill policemen and this guy hasnt been fired and the third thing id like to say, a student from high School Getting a scholarship by a republican group, that student read an essay, i as a teacher think that the essay was about a third grade essay. I think youre limited to three. My comment about english, you know, whats wrecked English Department isnt a big price to pay to keep radicals off the street i was being somewhat facetious. Its no longer to the crit i dont know if you saw this, i guess in the last couple of weeks i guess theres some website or algorithm, or search engine, but it can sweep the entire text of every New York Times article for the last 20 years and search for words and see ow how often theyre used. The jargon, intersectionalty, and the graphs flat, and in the last four or five years all the graphs skyrocket. How has this gotten in the New York Times . A lot of these people in the departments have graduated and been hired by the New York Times and theyre also hired at facebook and twitter and why theyre sensoring people. And one of the Youtube Channels was a High School Teacher to used clips of the hitler era to teach german history. They took that down. No, you cant its a history teaching tool and theyve taken it down from youtube. Why are they idiots . Because they marinade in this stuff. I meant my comment to be a little bit flip. But that its in the classroom and kids would go out and graduate and get jobs, would be more sensible. Theres less reason to think that now. I want to defend steve a little bit and this doesnt happen often so pay attention. But i think there is this you kind of referenced it. Theres this kind of not deal, strongly, an understanding, but you do see this diversity push really primarily taking place in the softer disciplines where its harder to observe who is good or bad as a scholar. So i think you really dont see this in physics or the sciences. Administrators are constantly demanding it and i dont think that you see this kind of level for demand for university or at least the implementation in the hard science departments. Once that happens, if that were to happen then i would become worried about the quality of our universities, because if you look at the International Rankings of universities, despite everything were saying, theres another quandary. American universities are far and away better than any other universities in the world, but i think a lot of that has to do with the performance of our scientists departments which constantly win nobel prizes, which continually are in technology and the economy and i dont think theyre world ranking universities based on quality of their english faculties or history departments. So one of the few things that gives me great confidence when i review the applications of foreign students and we get thousands of applications from china, every time i see a Chinese Students transcript and i see marxist linenist thought one, retired class and linen and lenin and marxist 2 but maybe thats an idea for berkeley, maybe theyll require marxist one and two at our great universities, too, and then our great advantage will disappear. I would like to weigh in on what seems to be your conflation of racially inspired admissions versus and gender inspired admissions two coequal evils. Im here to tell you i have a daughter who graduated with honors from bucknell. However she was bitterly disappointed when she was rejected from cornell and uc berkeley. In the theory of experimentation she took Summer School courses taught by cornell professors at cornell and uc berkeley protesters. In bowl. Calc aplus at cornell and beat out everybody in the class and uc berkeley aplus, and the professor said i dont know where you go to college ill personally write a letter of recommendation for you to come to uc berkeley and my daughter stood up 5 foot 8 inches tall and said, sir, ive already been rejected by uc berkeley once and you will not have the opportunity to do it again. Obvious theyre going to individual cases where youre going to see discrimination. Im not saying discrimination occurred here. In fact, i think that berkeley in the sciences and engineering would love to have more women students and faculty if they could. I actually would bet that what has happened, we didnt get into this, this is a longer story, but i think what has happened is that we have moved away from a system which i think of as a very amerited system to holistic applications, im afraid is a cover to allow Admissions Officers to consider race. So, thats one. Second thing is, look at the other college emissions scandal we havent talked about the one about buying your way into college by suddenly finding a sailing protege in your family when they have no sailing team. Thats usc stanford. Berkeley has not been involved yet. I like teasing our competitor schools. But once you to me what that shows not that these things go on, its when you move off the systems based on test scores and grades, anything counts of the of course youre going to have gaming of the system. These people are more obvious at it than other people because they bribed people to get. But youre going to to start having a lot of competition flow into other activities. Who is going to do better at that actually . One thing the scandal who is better at sending their kids to third world country to build Sanitation Systems or good at a sport or an art, i can its going to be wealthier people. So the unfortunate thing the new system of admissions that all schools are moving to. University of chicago doesnt use sat scores anymore which i find incredible. Thats the university of chicago of all places. But once these schools move away from, i think, a more meritbased system of admission youll have all kinds of abuses and unexplainable results. The admissions offices are using this as a cover for social engineering. Ill add real quick that its been true for several years now that more women than men are going to college. Its more skewed at private liberal arts colleges and sometimes its 6040 women to men and second and third tier liberal arts colleges back east, a million of them it seems like, right . There they really have a struggle. You talk to admissions offices and theyre terrified of going below the 6040 and they get so many more applications from women and berkeley you get 20,000 applications for 11,000 spots and even it out at places like berkeleyment beyond the aggregate members, i think that women outnumber men slightly in law school nationwide. I think theyre close to even in business schools, but you go down the list of the graduate and professional degree programs. Education, masters and above in education, and 80 women. And then you go down the other end of the scales, physics, engineering, chemistry its 20 women and you can actually do the bar, from 80 for education, and usually just see that, sort of. Youre not supposed to talk about these things, were embarrassed about it. But i know women who are stellar in science and i say you know what . We males will play that game, not that game, but take advantage of that. And i know one young lady professor at a very prestigious Engineering Department in iowa and shes up for tenure, and she called me up and says, oh, im getting some opposition. Shes written one oped articles. A long list of journals and all kinds of stuff. The dean said theres some trouble with my tenure review of approval because i wrote an oped article about about Climate Change that wasnt following the orthodoxy. Look, you go to your dean and you tell him, you know, i know that all the science departments want women protesters. If you dont want to give me tenure, ill get on the phone and ill have another job to the afternoon. Which i think is true. Good luck to your daughter and other people. One more back here and then a couple of hands up front. In reference to the admissions scandal, how do you see all of this Going Forward with the decline of enrollment . Do you see that there will be more of this kind of abuse or see it selfcorrecting . Give it your prediction, please. With harvard admissions case, and theres another companion case which a group im on the board of Pacific Legal foundation is bringing on behalf of students in new York Public Schools because the mayor there is trying to introduce racial quotas for the magnet schools in new york city. Something they used to do at lowell high here in san francisco, actually. So there are thee two cases moving forward. I think that the Supreme Court will eventually take one. Two and if you look at the lineup of the justices, there are at least four justices on the court who would vote to strike down the use of race in college admissions. Its quite bizarre as a matter of Supreme Court precedent that race can only be used by the gft when its the most compelling interest and race is the only way you can achieve that interest. The only two areas the court recognized this can happen is war time and college admissions. Its such an anomaly and i think its because Justice Oconnor and Justice Kennedy thought it was an elite behavior in use of race in college admissionings. I think its an aberration in our constitutional jurisprudence and i think these justices, assuming that judge roberts votes as he has in the past which is not a guarantee these days. I just asked sally about health care. If they vote as in the past theyll use one of these two cases to strike down the use of race which i think it would be a good turning point to restoring or at least turning the direction of the ship back towards the more meritocratic. How do we get meritocracy in the universities. They woke up and said, racial, ethic and gender distributional results they were not happy with and notwithstanding that, is the university the place where you start trying to fix the problems of minorities who have bad schools, you know, maybe a bad family life actually take those problems, that are fundamental problems seriously enough. There have been exception of the the meritocracy, admissions, athletes, musicians, people in drama and as we learned you could exploit i like the phrase the side door, the side door to get in by bribing the failing coach in stanford. The public reaction has not been surprising to me. People suspect theres something rotten going on across the board. Im going on too long. Im picking this up at berkeley and elsewhere, you might say the liberal elite establishment of the universities is rethinking meritocracy directly. There are people speaking directly, maybe meritocracy is not the way our institutions should be structured and organized and follow that in practice, if the court says we cant use race as an admissions factor, its going to create chaos. I dont know where thats going, but i dont think it will be goods. I was wondering if you could comment on the work that Mitch Daniels is doing at purdue and his reform there, how hes able to control cross and bring it under control if thats not a sign of hope. Its absolutely a milestonement Mitch Daniels, president of purdue for ten years maybe. Tuition has not gone up a single dollar. He said enough with raising tuition. He does exactly what you expect a republican politician with a business background would do. We dont need new desks, we dont need cars in our fleet that half arent used half the time. Hes sold off assets and not hiring lots of people and im asking why, hello, why cant this be copied . [inaudible] i think thats true, too. I do wish and i had a brief conversation with him a while ago. I was wish he was more aggressive in the way that john silver was 30 years ago at Boston University on curriculum reforms. Theres a couple of things where hes tried to bring in sensible people. s playing his strength and god bless him for that. That ought to be a model for people and sooner or later people are going to wake up to that, i think, by necessity. I think youre absolutely right that the departure from meritocracy is responsible for both the recent admissions scandal involving rick singer, the bias claims at harvard. And what would be required to make admissions more public how the selection is being made which might push toward a more meritbased process or is it hopeless to think that the admissions process can be made transparent in this country . You know what i want to do . Im going to argue for or suggest, and watch peoples heads explode. For the elite places like harvard and yale, lets set a baseline to be a qualified applicant, whatever test score might be. You could also allow room for by the way, im i me have ill put it in a double negative i shouldnt use, im not uncomfortable with some aspects of holistic consideration of students that are from a bad school and may have a good test score. Maybe you dont test well, but grades, and recommendations from teachers who are serious and they say aha, the person might be able to do the work. In other words, you get a qualified pool of people and admit them by lottery. Lets do that and of course, the universities they dont want to do that. Part of the legacy of admissions is, we know from the harvard personal. This person is flags because their parents are a big donor and they will be a big donor. If im a minority and you havent hard any any minorities at harvard 50 years ago, you look at that, wait a minute, this is an unjust privilege and so thats why i say, im not uncomfortable with some ways of trying to puzzle this out and it has its problems, but lets go to the lottery system as the endgame and then its a lot more honest. I think this is crazy, crazy idea. [laughter] having a lottery . It could be like powerball though, you could have the drawings on National Television to get into harvard. What are you talking about . I think that dan is right in a sense like, say berkeley what it could do is take the names off, the identifying data off files and have the confident to say here are the people that we admitted here. One here are their scores. If were so proud of the values were theyll never do it. I would just use if i was admission officer i would just use data, sat scores and course performance and then correct for socioeconomics because as steve said there are some with the quality of schooling. If the universities think being a good sailor should put you in the freshman class, do it. Purdue would be interesting. One thing universities are Higher Education as a market. The one maybe area to hope for is that some people, you know, theory predicts there should be some institutions which will act counter to this whole cycle and emphasize these kinds of values so you could see maybe a Mitch Daniels some place. Well, im going to make the admissions system transparent and theoretically start admitting all the people that the other universities are not admitting because of their nonexcellence goals, but just their diversity goals and other universities should prosper. That used to be the story about why the university of chicago became a Great University and they would not play that game and now theyre the first Big University out of the gate saying were not using sats anymore. One of the concerns i have these days is the attitude of students on campus on free speech. When i was an undergraduate during the free speech era, students wanted to be to have no limits whatsoever on what they could be exposed to. Now it seems that theres a significant or they could expose themselves. Now there seems to be a significant, i hope minority, but a Significant Group of students on the campus that are essentially demanding to remain ignorant, and what do you suppose is the origin of this change . What you call faithbased full tur and so forth . Well, there are several roots to it that are deeply ideological and i could walk through them. There are doctrines that say free speech is merely a tool of power and thats why it should be suppressed. There is a he no such thing as free speech. Another says free speech, the a study saying when someone is upset on a College Campus, their Blood Pressure goes up and its stressful and stress is bad for your health. A talk youre going to that milo is talking, is that more stress than a final exam . I have some fun with this especially with liberal students. What i do, i have them look at port huron statement from 1962, the students for Democratic Society and tom wrote it. They pick it up fast, whats the disposition of that document . We want to grow up. We want responsibility. We dont want administrators looking after us. These are things that are said in that document. We want to take responsibility, in other words, its an antisafe space document. And the contrast of disposition between the radical students then and now, i bring it up, but indirectly, but the point is its embarrassing to students now. I do think its a minority who are crazy about all of this, but then theres an awful lot of pressures on students to conform and lots of survey data of students showing students are afraid to tell their opinions. Not just conservative students, just like most students say, we know that a lot of college know consists of nogo zones and you dont need official censorship, people are self censoring, thats terrible. And steve and i forgot to issue our trigger warning at the beginning of this event although i start my classes multiple classes most of them are filled with triggers and ill give one at the beginning of the semester. My line is i dont do microaggression, i go for full tilt i agree with why steve said free speech is declining on campus. And one other element should be thrown in there, i think all of you are to blame for raising your children the way youre raising them these days. Because a lot of students number one thing they dont want to do is offend anybody else. Theyre so worried about sensitivities to the point where theyre not willing to say maybe the sharpest thing or the cleverest thing to advance the discussion because theyre worried that someone else will be offended. One thing ive noticed in my careers of teaching i have to push them harder to say things, to tear out their ideas, to their logical conclusion because people are so worried about offending each other and plus, i have to say this is an effect of the kavanaugh hearings. Students are completely worried, i think, that anything they say from middle school on is going to be used against them in their confirmation hearings. So i think youre seeing a lot of you know, the kavanaugh hearings themselves are a product of this, right, this kind of environment and culture were living in now. So im worried, i think that students themselves are, i think, a lot of responsible for this free speech this antifree speech attitude on campus along with the faculty and administrator. And we have time for two or three more questions. Thank you. Well, first i want to thank you both, this has been a fantastic discussion. But i notice in the discussion theres a tendency to refer to the universities as though theyre a monolithic block. I wonder if you could address the issue of private versus public universities . What different rules should apply to the issues that were discussing and among private universities, distinguish between those who take government funding, say like stanford, who takes a tremendous amount, and say hillsdale that takes no government funding. So, oh, yeah, hillsdale, ive been many times. How do you get to hillsdale . You fly to detroit, turn left out of the airport and drive 200 years to brigadoon. Its kind of like siberia in the winter. Hillsdale has to be good or no one would go there. Hillsdale and grove one one or two other sectarian places you could find. I think that private colleges are worse than public universities i think thats true and big universities true for a bunch of reasons. Private university i think they have more latitude to have a speech code. Theres the old civil rights application, if you take money youre bound by and thats why, and admissions for harvard. And, but i also think, you know, a good example is most of the administrators at berkeley and the diversity offices, ive met them and some come from places, the current dean or pro vest is from the chemistry department. But thats one difference. Public university, actually in the state, because we have learned lot which is im not sure of the legal angle, protect free speech by just as much as a public university. California is a little bit different. One big difference is public universities have to obey first amendments, and they tried not to but they have to hear ultimately you can learn them, and force california i think the use of race was even more obvious and pronounced before prop 209 that was here. It was always 15, 18 Berkeley Berkeley and after prop 209 agent are about 3540 of class. Theres still cheating at the margins but they cant cheat as quickly as they used to. Thats harder to do in a private university. When wed we say, big public se universities are, they all want to go with the herd. Thats one of the reasons stephen is right. All of the administrators want their head to stick up above the grass. All of Higher Education is moving in this direction. You would expect private universities to just be more diverse and outcome so there would be some that are really bad, but then that could be space for private universities to emphasize i return for for e conservative style of education that should prosper when it would else is making a mistake. Oddly, you might find a source for hope and reform in a smaller private college that can show the benefits of acting against the herd mentality. Thanks for being here. Im going to reward you both with a really easy question. Which is, how much, if there is a limit, should a universe you have to spin on security when controversial speakers come to campus . I i say this against the background of, you spoke about, the milo incident and the highsecurity at the ben shapiro. I was there at both events and there was no security at the milo event. It was incredible security at supposedly cost 600,000 or something at the ben shapiro. So how much should have received expected to pay . I do have a good answer for that but ill give you the contingent can ginger one which the chance are decided she needed to spend whatever it took to break the fever. I think she did that by doing that. So in other words, that the reasonable expense that was like every time. But no, i was in some of the discussions. They want to talk to conservative about what you think, also, milo was threatening to come back to campus. Thats another funny story. It was all a a fraud on his pa. He kept announcing speakers were going to come with them, and then one day Charles Murray is coming. I doubt that. I emailed the meds he said first ive heard that. And by the way, hell no, i wouldnt go with that guy. Such told the chancellors office. Obviously hes trying to please from donors and hoping university the chance was very cool. She said tell us what you need and will try to ensure you get the speech. Did make a fuss, didnt hit the panic button. At all collapsed because it was a fraud on his part, the second proposed trip. The point is she broke the fever. A contingent answer is you should spend whatever it takes to maintain the authority of the campus to control the campus. Theres no objective figure for that. So the lawyer him he has a much more pragmatic answer that actually works, which is i would say, it will have great effect of paying for security reducing the number of protests, which is to say every time you need to spend on security, the dollars shall be transferred from the Diversity Inclusion office, dollar for dollar. [laughing] i like that better. Im going to be debating at berkeley against the very leftwing professor on singlepayer healthcare on september 19, so i hope im going to have the appropriate security. Im not a National Name but it still worrying when you think about going into speedy we will have steep out there. You have at least two back supporters. The second thing, Harvey Mansfield who was about 86 86 w to teaching and very much with it, we were attending our god daughters graduation from harvard last may and charles my husband was a student of harveys. As was i. You dont come to any my graduation. It was his 65th year graduation from harvard last year. Biking did tell charles that when he retires there were never replace harvey with a conservative. So he has to go on forever and ever and then john will go on forever and ever at berkeley. A wonderful event. What you think id everyone for coming but in particular a warm summers ago thank you to steve and to john you for an excellent job. [applause] [inaudible conversations] weeknights this month were teaching American History tv programs as a preview of what is available every weekend on cspan3. The u. S. Then comes back into session monday september 9 with 2 important issues on their agenda, passing federal spending bills, and antigun violence legislation. Before senators return to washington get a behind the scenes look at the senate with cspans History Program the senate, conflict and compromise. Heres a preview. Thomas jefferson questioned the need for senate. The founders envisioned lets follow the constitution. The framers established the senate to protect people from their rulers and as a check on the house. The fate of this country and maybe even the world lies in the hands of congress and the United States senate. The senate, conflict and compromise using original interviews, cspans bejewel archives, and unique access to the senate chamber. We will look at the history, traditions and roles of the u. S. Senate. Sunday at 9 p. M. Eastern and pacific on cspan. Now a a discussion on congressional oversight of Nuclear Security and arms control. Speakers include representatives from the arms control association, the Hudson Institute in washington, d. C. Hosted this twohour event. Thank you. Lets begin. I want