Their generous support this year, especially win trust is our programming sponsor. Robert mccormick foundation, alpha wood foundation, the transcribe bun, three l real estate and cspan booktv. Todays program will be broadcast live on cspan 2s book of the, and if theres time at the end of the program for a q a session with the author, we ask you use the microphone in the center of the room so the home viewing oddsens can participate. Before we again we ask that you silence your cellphones and if you are going to be taking photos during the presentation, that you turn off all flash. With that said, please welcome carlos, the Washington PostNonfiction Book critic and winner of the 2019 pulitzer paris for criticism, and author, kathleen blue. [applause] so, its great pleasure to be here with kathleen. Assistant professor of history at the university of chicago and were here to discuss her first book, bring the war home, the White Power Movement, and the paramilitary america. Kathleen holds a doctorate in american todays from yale another and spent a decade or so working on the become. I have to confess when i first enencounterred your book i thought what a timely moment to explore a contemporary history of this movement, but of course by the time you finish it you realize that the timeliness was the same five years ago or ten years ago or 30 years ago and you have told a much longer history here, well charlottesville became shorthand for anything. I am curious you decided to embark on this research. So i wanted to do something on reconciliation commissions. We have this very long and come mex history of racial inequality in United States, muff is a history of racial violence and yet we havent seen a sustained public dialogue around raise that the way that many other countries that have that kind of history have. Took me to the trc process in grainsboro, north carolina, which is greensboro, north carolina. They were trying figure out the legacy of an event that happened on november 3, 1979, when a group of klan and neo nazi protesters opened for an leftist protest against the klan and killed five people, one africanamerican woman and four white men. So this is an event that to a historian already is out of time. 1979 is later than you expect to hear about a klan shooting. Its in the wrong set of victims for what i thought i knew pout about the klan and the interesting thing was the more i got into this footage of the trc, the thing that the perpetrators and people affiliated kept saying was along the lines of, well, i killed communists in vietnam so why not kill them here . Now that collapses a lot of things. That collapses battlefront and homefront. That collapses wartime and peacetime. It also kind of collapses all kinds of different communist enemies into one pool of people. I couldnt let good of what a contradiction that was and when i followed into the archive i found that appears throughout the newspapers and correspondence files and throughout the movement. One of the big themes of the book gets at that, at how at the relationship between americas wars and periods of resurgence in the White Power Movement, in particular the period you describe, the memories and narratives surrounding vietnam serves as a kind of inspiration how much did that relationship work. This is an interesting thing because if you look at the surges in kkk membership throughout kind of the long 20th century, end of. The 19th under and 20th 20th century, you notice very quickly is that klan membership spikes always aligned with the aftermath of warfare do that more consistently than with populism, with poverty, with antiimmigration sentiment so theres something but the aftermath of war that is important to moments vigilantes tee and revolutionary violence perpetratessed by these groups. But turns out not to be so simple a story but a ram be story. A veteran coming home and waging war at home. Because it turns out first of all that a lot of people who are claiming to be veterans arent. It turns out a lot of people who are active duty troops are also involved in similar ways. And that the scholarship bears out that actually its everyone that becomes more violent in the aftermath of combat so thats across gender and ages. So not just men who served but everyone in American Society has this moment of intense violence in the aftermath of warfare. So i think what is happening in the aftermath of vietnam is that some instrumental veterans are using the narrative of the war as recruitment twice to talk about the betrayal by the state to organize people in a very popular paramilitary mode and use the incredibly efficient technologies of killing developed for vietnam. Im talk about weapons and materiale and strategy to escalate the death toll they can carry out in acts of violence at home. Your book it spans roughly the 70s through the 90s and the enpossession you sort of slightly epilogue you start looking at the contemporary issues and you write that pro longed wars in iraq and afghanistan shape a new generation of white power activism. This relationship that you identify about hoe the after math of war produces this do you see that happening now follow is these prolonged wars in iraq and afghanistan. This is the minimum dollar question. My Million Dollar student mitchell this is the undergreats, the first year that it dont remember 9 11 so weve been at war their entire lives. More than a prolonged war, its a new forever war. What that does to this cycle of resurgence and the violent aftermath we have son seat yet. Dont know itself that means we should look for a kind of a lower peek that is sustained over time or a delay and then a spike. Were completely off the map in terms of historical precedent. One brief tee tour on terminology detour on terminology. So many terms tossed around in the news i work for a newspaper, this is something we struggle with, that would call what. White supremacists, White Nationalistsle youre very specific but calling this a White Power Movement. Why . Yes. So, first of all it is a white supremacist movement. But White Supremacy is very, very broad and i think applies to a whole lot of legs rats cal things range less radical things ranging from individual Belief Systems up to many different kinds of systems of power that disproportionateie benefit white people and we could look at the court system, banking systems. There are many different ways that our society has been founded upon and has benefited White Supremacy over time. You can do more in the q a if anyone would like. To White Nationalist is trickier. It is technically correct in some ways but i think that when people hear the phrases White Nationalist most people about nation. I think for me the image that comes to mind is of the klan in the 1920s when people are wearing robes and hood but no masks and marching on the National Mall in washington, dc, and have slogans like 100 americanism. Thats not what this movement is doing after 1983 and certainly not into the present. When people talk about white power, which by the way is also what the activists called themselves what they mean is a White Nationalism that is for a transnational aryan nation, which is to say the nationalism in White Nationalism is notes the United States. The nationalism in White National is the aryan nation, a transnational white pollity that that i would like to put together in a homeland or an allwhite world. I think that is a fundamentally antidream democratic project and fundamentally oppose ted the United States or any other nation much more radical than simply, i dont know, a patriotism predicated on whiteness. Give us a just broad assessment of, like, how large is the movement that youre describing in the United States . How organized . How hierarchical. In he middle theres 25,000 people, the 80s,ing a ash skinheads and chancemen and neonazis together so in the middle 25,000 people, people who live and breathe and really put thunder lives in this movement. Often marry other activists and attend church in the movement, get their ride from the spirit religious counsel neglect movement share resources. So 25,000 people in the middle and then outside of that theres another ring that is more like 150 to 175,000 additional people. And those people arent as dedicated but they do public facing stuff. They go to marchs and attend recalls and subscribe to newspapers. Outside of that is a bigger group of 450,000 more people who dont themselves buy the newspapers but who regularly read the newspapers. We can mam this going on to a bigger and more diffuse group of people who would never read something that is says official newspaper of the knights of the k but agree with the ideas and especially if they come from a friend or social relationship. This mold of organizing does a couple of important things. One is that it pushes ideas from the middle out into the main stream and we can see ideas moving from these very fringe actorsors into mainstream polits and the other thing its to is pull people in from the outside who might be radicalsized and might be pulled into the circumstancology the movement. Im glad you raised the newspapers because when we think about a lot of the coverage of these kinds of moms we think of the reporter going undercover or maybe some of you saw the vice video, the vice news video surrounding charlottesville. You have bun it fine interesting but think its an historian. An archival history of this movement so theres a lot of correspondence, a lot of a carol reading of the literature of the movement, court record but books and newspapers and literature plays a huge role in this book. Why do you think that is . Theres a novel here that recurrs and from the 70s so Timothy Mcveigh, recuring theme in the movement. Why does it have that power . This is the turner diaries which is a utopian or dystopia novel, depending on where youre sitting. This novel is becomes much more than a novel to this movement. Becomes a culture load star that works to bring people together in machine cause and does a ton of practical work in addition to be a work of fiction. It outlunches plans to use for violence and a hit list and the list of ideal targets, but i think that the staying power of that book is certainly not for itself sort of stylistic merit. Its because it answers this fundamental question about imaginative possible. Its because if answers the problem of how could this tiny Fringe Movement think they can do this . And succeed . Theyre talking about taking on the most militarized super state in World History with a tiny group of people. How do they think they can make that happen . By the way that question has work also to acquit them from to get them off on various charges because judges and juries look at them and think, how could they possibly succeed in this conspiracy, tiny group of people. What the turner diary outlanes is asymmetrical warfare, man through one a small group of people can used acts of violence to politicize and awaken other white people and awaken them with acts leak the Oklahoma City barth or assassination or attacks so they will come to cause and see what white power activists see as a state of emergency that they just need to shaq people out of their routine they will joan the cause and be successful. One of your great frustrations in the book is the fact that people see attacks such as dylann roof in south carolina, and Timothy Mcveigh in Oklahoma City and is cart gorized as a lone wolf action. One i know committed or disturbed individual rather than what you argue is that they flow very much from this much broader movement. Why why do you have the be frustrated . Why is that that always get cat gorized categorized like lone woolf attack. The lone wolf idea we lone wolf is frustrates because even that phrase comes from this movement. They would really like to be depicted as lone wolves. Also be fine with being depicted as mad men or a few bad apples or insane actors inexplicable violence because all of those things allow this movement to disappear as such. This is all flowing from a strategy adopted around the same time this movement declares war on the state in 1938 called leaderless resince stance which is simply selfstyle terror today. What it mean is is that people can act . Small groups of, like two to 12 activists and they can act in common cause without any demonstrable ties with one another and also without any direct orders from leadership. Now, that strategy is adopted to avoid court prosecution, also adopted because chancesmen then 1960s are getting frustrated with how many fbi informants have tsunami into groups doing undercover surveillance and this strategy is adopted to sometimey that. But the durable consequence letserless because the real take awayes we have lot sight of the entire thing as a social movement bus wog ever get the story of one of a few people. Dont get the story of the network of people that are connected to together. Im glad you raises the leaderless resistance thing which is such a key aspect of the story. But you mention 1983 and theres a moment you outline how theres a transition in this movement in which the state comes to be seen as the enemy. Yes. What flipped . What happened . What made that revolutioner in turn as you call it in the book . This is a really key thing to understand for our current political moment. 1983 seems to have been a tip for the movement, and the reason we know this happened, that it turn happened, is because there is a what several people later describe as a secret back door meeting where attraction a declaration of war against the state. Historians a little skeptical but secret back door meetings when the testimony comes out as par of, say, witness protection deals and plea bargains and things like that. So the secret meeting we can take with a grain of salt but we can observe the activism changes after 1983. They adopt leaderless resistance and selfstyled terror and but up this thing called liberty net, an early commuter message, look a protest ointernet organizing and incident natalie is kind of a prefacebook social networking push because liberty net includes not only a a assassinations and thats 1984ment dont have a. In that went online at 1984 or 1986. Theyre turn this since way facebook and after 1983 they distributed stolen money and used it to by apple minicomputers, which minicomputers are not small. And thousands of dollars become then. Yes. Thousands and millions of dollars. This is the orders which is rob millions of dollars of the time from cars and then distributing them and an activist would follow the money around teaching everyone how to get online and access the Bulletin Boards so they can be in the race war together. That happened after 1983. It seems that the tip has to do with both kind of a infrastructure preparedness so at that point they have their money, they he have this network of people online. Theyve been training in paramilitary camps, active camps around then country getting them ready for warfare and theyre frustrate frustraterred with the state and this comes in second term of the Reagan Administration when people on left in center thing the activists gain from the state and have a sympathetic ear in the executive. They tone see it that way. The see the distance between ray rigs Campaign Promises and what is delivering or his mod racing mod racing that the state, even helm can never deliver the kind change that it want and see that as a referendum of the fundamental state and declare war. Commentators have been pointing to Donald Trumps wink ask a nod approach to, and other action racial violence as evidence that to people never altright getting what they want. You raised liberty net. One of the most shocking things when i read this book. We think today of the atright online culture and online radicalization, and see this as a thing of enough it and was going on in the 80s. You e devote a chapter and discuss this on the role of women in the movement. Both as agents and co labbateows and justification of protecting white womanhood and female helplessness as bag driver of the movement. Can you tease out that sort of ying and yang of women in the White Power Movement. The huge surprise for me in the archives because most of the scholarship pout this has been pout paramilitary ms. Christianity and thats the masculinity and thats the outward fees thing, anymore camel fatigues and marching down the street in great numbers, a very masculine kind of activism but theres huge underground network mained by women and that if what you want to do is look at this as a social movement, see the relationship between groups, one of the ways you can do that is by looking at peoples marriages and domestic relationship and i talk about rides to the away but rides to the airport are a huge part of what the women are doing for this kind of activism. Theres a broader kind of problem in the history of conservativism that is only begun to be crequeed in the u. S. Work in the last ten years or or where we the academy largely missed the role of conservative women because we were expecting womens activism to look like feminist activism. But theres a whole lot of of ways to be doing activism that arent well in which the people would not particularly say theyre activists. Women i would not say theyre leader but theyre doing thursday ick lice disgissing people and driving getway cars which is deeply point to criminal undertake examination up to running their groups and talking about their own positions. And they come out in very unexpected ways. So, one of the example is like to think about is theres a story of the leader of the order,matthews, the order is a bank robbing cell that master minds and trains other cells. Its integral to the war on the state in the 1980s articulating the movements ideological material. And theres a moment when bob matthews is having a last faceoff with the fbi am subject of many a made for tv movie. And its usually depicts like ruby ridge, a remote cabin with one person inside and holds them off with a machine gun, drop illumination flairs on the cabin and it guess up in a fireball and he dies and the size. But its not a promote cabin. Its like a vacation house in washington, twostore Vacation Home and also he is not the only person in there. This house is full of women and children until the moment that the fbi confrontation happens. There are people like cooking, hes watching the toddlers, the women are helping dye his hair and i came across the story our one woman who was in the cabin and in Court Testimony something asks her did you ever see this declaration of war which is foundational dewpoint for the Movement Document for me moment. She is like, saw it. He said in what excite. Said i proofread for them. So historians who study women are like, wait, wait, wait. Proofread it for them can mean like i added a come half. Proof reiding can mean i added three paragraphs and i think women in this movement are often in that space of sort of theyre political and religious views tell them they are supposed to be subservient and take order from their husband and thats sort of the mode of acceptable action within the communities. But theyre doing a lot around kind of the edges of what is possible. So theres a real woman in the movement which is hugely significant thing, and then women are also important pause of their symbolic value to the movement. Theres a bunch of issues that we might in this room understand as conservative issues like opposing a borings, opposes immigration and opposing lgbt rights and racial teo pose abortion not because of an abstract value around fetal personhood or something but because theyre worried but the declining white birth rate and thats the same reason they want to oppose lgbt rights and feminism because they dont want women out of the home because theyre worried but the white birth rate and this comes down in the symbolic production around white womens bodies, and the way that women are held up as kind of idyllic figures. The creators of the next generation of warriors. Exactly and talk about women have to have three or mother children or else theyre speeding along the rays to extinction and women inskinhead groups which are they wear their hair shot and go topless and get in fights which women would not agree with in other segments of at the hospital. Even those women talk but they want to be ideal wifes and mothers and everyone is on the same rhetorical band. You devote a lot of times to explaining how different groups in this movement go about acquiring so many weapons. And the relationship with sometimes active duty military. Can you explain that a little bit. How do they accumulate so much. Yes. So, the accumulation of weapons is a large and concerning kind of subplot that runs through the entire book. I have one chapter just gout obtaining stolen weapons from military bases and posts and armories. Which theyre doing by the ton and i mean literal tons, not net posteriorly. But theyre taking things like from the armory at fort bragg and checking them out for training and not returning them. The pentagon is ware of this but has a difficult time clamping down on the outflow of weapons until the groups have acquired a bunch. Then when a butch of activists stand trial for sedes dishes conspiracy in 1987 and 1988, when theyre acquitted the weapons return to group so they stay in circulation through the Militia Movement and we can see the through line. Your book spans vietnam through the 90s but you discuss in the epilogue how some of the dedebates and controversy surrounding con fed recall symbols today confederate symbols today could facilitate further resurgence in the movement and i think we have seen that kind of backlash. What do you think are some of the key lessons of this history to what we may be dealing with today . Yes. I think that this is a really good example of how history can show us a kind of a different set of possibles than we might take from the immediate context that we find ourselves in. Mostly bus i think that a real response to this movement would involve something spanning many Different Levels of solutions, ranging from kind of the way that individuals take in story, the way the journalists loo the words like lope wolf and mentally ill instead of looking for political and social ties. All the way through things like juror education, prosecutorial strategy, surveillance resources, hate crimes law, up. Theres a big scale of things that might happen to address this kind of violence. The other thing i would say is just that this is really a story but continuity over time. This is such an historian answer but were generations into this activityism. The children of the people i write about or now leader odd group and some have left the movement and have written beautiful accountants how to get out of hate but were dealing with something engaged. John blackstone. Right. This is deeply engrained in our recent history and not going to go away without some kind of change. Ignoring is, history shows us will not make it go away. I fine a lot of hope in the fact that these kinds of conversations were not happening at the time of my study. All of the events in the book were known at the time, covered in major newspapers. The klan paramilitary camps one or the today show or good morning america, very unfunny saturday night live sketch but greensboro and. There wasnt a shift in the tide. I think at charlottesville theres a different moment and that gives me hope. The book, the latter third of the book, you discuss ruby ridge, waco, Oklahoma City as these kind of key movements, not just of action in the case of Oklahoma City but of radicalization. This is always the nervous making questions for historians where we are taught not to prognosticate. I think in the time that im looking at, there were kind of two different spheres. One of them is above ground and you can see it as happens. Those are the public facing demonstration acts of violence that are kind of out in public, election campaigns, rallies, marches, that kind of level. And then theres this also big underground activity that i document in the book. To see that, i had to look at things of fbi surveillance files which arent available much later, prosecutions which you dont get till after an act of violence, much later, but the fact that we can see the public facing stuff as it happens; right . That doesnt mean that the underground isnt there. I think the archives shows that both of those things have happened together. I would anticipate that when were seeing all of these big stuff moments in the current moment that were in, that theres also this building underground momentum. And i think that one take away to remember is that an event like christchurch or the Oklahoma City bombing or dylann roof shooting of bible study worshippers, those acts are not meant to be the end point in and of themselves. We have to remember this from the history of the movement, thats not the goal. The goal is that those actions will inflame other people and radicalize other people into this cause. I think thats the place where public opposition might locate. Just one or two more questions before we turn it over for more questions. Sure. You talk about not just the accumulation of weapons and the arming of this group, but the sort of militarization of Police Forces. Yes. As being as playing a huge role in this because its sort of ends up confirming what the movement believes. Talk about that relationship. Sure, this is a really interesting and unexpected kind of thing that happened in the book, but so the image that i think shows this really well is so during the ruby ridge stand off which is a white power Family Living in a rural cabin on a mountaintop in idaho, it is very remote. The federal government has it encamped and eventually there are deaths in the standoff, at the hands of the fbi and the atf. So during the standoff, theres a huge white power road block well, theres an fbi road block and a white power picket of the road block down the hill. And some people get around the road block and try to resupply them with more weapons. So theres a picture when they are arrested. One of them is on the ground being arrested by a member of the atf, alcohol tobacco and Firearms Bureau and the skin head and arresting officer are wearing the same uniform because by this point, everybodys in camo fatigues and bullet proof vests. If we want to think about a social movement kind of creating an activism based on counterinsurgency thats happening at the same time that policing is being profoundly shaped by counterinsurgency. We can trace the weapons and technology, are also coming back into Police Forces very directly. The clash of the two paramilitarizations is one of the things that happened in the early 90s. Last thing i ask you, what are you going the work on next . Yes, so im really interested in thinking about violence that we usually imagine as inexplicable and trying to put it into a historical narrative. What i would like to think about as violence as an environmental factor that shapes peoples and lives and politics in one space. I think it will take me home to colorado in the 90s and think about columbine and think about the different kinds of political, social, and physical violence that are happening, unfolding one kind of short time and place as a way of thinking about moving into the age of Mass Shootings in america more broadly. If you have questions, please come to the mic at the center. Police and the military, i have seen the news reports that they are finding White Supremacists infiltrating the police and the military. Is that a new phenomena, or is that something that you saw in your research . So i have no archives to tell you about Police Forces. That doesnt mean it didnt happen in the period of my study, but there are strategies in the White Power Movement to target active duty troops and veterans for recruitment during the 1980s and 90s. They try to get a handle on this a little bit, and i think you know, it is a difficult thing for the pentagon to respond to because on the one hand, they dont want to interfere with peoples free speech and freedom of association, which i think we can all kind of respect. On the other hand, there is a way that being a participant in any of these groups after 1983 is directly in conflict with the oath of induction; right . Because this movement is trying to be an enemy foreign or domestic, an enemy of the state. So theres a series of sort of loose prohibitions. Theres a statement in the early 80s that says we dont think you should be in this movement, but its not prohibited until 1996. Thats from the defense secretary; right . Yes, weinberger says not to but he doesnt enforce it. [inaudible]. Thats a great question. So the question was [inaudible]. Yeah. [inaudible]. Well, this is my little gripe with black klansmen when we paint them as so crazy, a lot of them rose through this movement because they are enormous compelling speakers and because they are charismatic people, right, thats what put themes put them at the helms of these groups, thats what makes them able to recruit like they are. I think the intersection between fringe and mainstream is a very very critical place that we need to do more work. In this book, i was focused on the fringe. And so i can see ideas going out, and i can see people coming in, but theres less work on kind of what happens after the ideas get into the mainstream. But for instance, we could look at Something Like the david duke president ial campaign, pat buchanan said and then did this, he said what we need to do is look at the sorry david duke is a klansman who ran for president at a point in a runoff in a primary election with pat buchanan and george h. W. Bush. So buchanan said what we need to do about duke is look at whats working in his platform and take those planks and put them in our platform. So he did that. And then of course he became a significant challenger to bush, and so bush took some of the stuff and put it in his platform. What we have is a clear movement of stuff from david duke all the way to the mainstream that gets ensconced this law; right . We have that legacy even if david duke himself cant win the election. So tracing out all of those push and pull moments between mainstream and fringe i think is really important, and then i have to say i feel almost contractually obligated to tell you my archive was over in 96 so somebody needs to continue this work forward and look at this very closely. Hi. I want to first thank you for your bravery for who appears to be a white woman, who is doing this work because your voice will be heard more than anyone elses except a white man. [laughter] and thank you for the nervous laughter. [laughter] my question is, i have two questions, okay . As a historian, who knows that this country, this sovereign nation was invaded by white people, that now claim this to be their country, how do you see that affecting this movement that you write about . Do you want to ask your other one too and i will get them both . Yes. What do you see youre a historian, not a social scientist, what do you see as an impetus for white people to accept the fact that their brothers and sisters are doing what they are doing brothers and sisters meaning these actors . No, other white people. Yeah. Theyre watching their brothers and sisters, yes, doing what they are doing and are relatively silent silent. Yes, okay. So one of the interesting surprises from the archive is that we often have this idea about a political continuum, with the United States at the center and then theres a left and a right; right . I think this is a very world war ii kind of a notion of politics, like, left is stalin and right is hitler and then were in the middle, the usa. I think in the 80 it is more of a circle where the two ends of the continuum have a lot more in common than they do with the center. Theres a ton of cross pollination i believe between the left and the right. This is an unexplored area of my archive. This is a hunch im telling you. The people i write about are really really into native americans. Where did you go . They are really into native americans. I think it is partly because a reservation system is one answer o a white homeland question. They like the idea of apportioning space for everybody and then sorting. They also are sort of into the west in a way that kind of creates a [inaudible] of native people. And then they also have a lot of interests in well, maybe not i dont want to overstate this, but if you live on a white separatist compound your two likely neighbors are farmers and we know a lot about kind of the intersection between this and the farms crisis in the 80s. But your other likely neighbor is hippies. So the people that i write about are really interested in like macrobiotic diet and organic gardening, i think thats got to be more than just kind of a simple like were going to take their good strategies. I think it is probably that they are cross pollinating and both kind of in a survival state of politics. I think in a place like idaho, i would expect there to be some amount of these ideas running into each other in a way that might be interesting to look at further. Yeah, the question about how to get people to reckon with racism. Its such a huge and complex thing. I really dont know a full answer for you or else, you know, we would do it now. But i think learning the history of how ingrained kind of how ingrained race has been through the our history and the long history of racial violence is a First Step Towards a different kind of politics. Thank you for your work. So i know this is before the time you were covering. I wonder if you thought there were any lessons we should learn about kind of how to address this, from the early part [inaudible] at first at least tried to put down the ku klux klan. So sorry, what is the question about that . Is there anything we can learn from today, even though it is a much different time period, are there any things we can learn about how possibly how to address this well, the ku klux klan act is still the major legal instrument being used in some of the things like, for instance, i think the kessler versus harris suit coming out of charlottesville is using the Klu Klux Klan act as its main. Im not a lawyer, so people can jump in with specifics. Thats where we get a lot of legal precedent upon things like you cant be in a conspiracy to deprive someone of rights and things like that. So that is still the Legal Foundation were using in a lot of criminal prosecution. Im afraid my question may be much like the last two, but im going to give it to you anyway. Sure. You started with truth and reconciliation process that you were very interested in that. Thats what drew you to this. There are obviously some things that we might take in law or otherwise to i will say affirmatively stop this kind of activity that you were talking about, but i guess frankly im more interested in a certain way in the constructive aspects of developing a dialogue over the kind of truth and reconciliation that has to do with the broad societal issues, have you given some thought to that . Is there some prospect for it, in the u. S. These days . Are there some things that have occurred have south africas process worked as well as i have been thinking it has and so on . I mean, this is a very complex area of study, and its no longer kind of my area of expertise. I think anyone can look around and think we have unresolved issues in our country around our history and around race. We all agree on that. I think that, you know, there have been a bunch of stories going around lately about things like, you know, germany had a huge kind of process around memory of the holocaust thats now had kind of a reactionary effect thats fuelling some right wing activity today. Im not sure if theres a right answer, but im really dedicated to the idea that learning history and reckoning with it can have a positive impact. So a lot of what i do in my teaching is around sort of looking at these long histories of violence and what understanding violence as part of our shared past might open in terms of possibilities in the present. This just comes from sort of your hippy comment. You know, now were seeing sort of the new religious movement aspect of it now [inaudible] or whatever yeah. Did that come into play during your period of study that sort of neo paganism and all that sort of stuff, and do you see any relation if it did, do you see any relation to sort of the 70s sort of sort of this nondenominational sort of christianity. Yes, the neopagans are there in the 80s for sure. This is another place where i suspect there might be runover between the left and the right. They are mostly kind of around white cultural superiority. I think the possibly more powerful theological picture is around christian identity, which is a political theology that holds that it comes from british israelism it holds that white people are the true lost tribe of israel and that everyone else is descended either from satan or animals depending on who you ask. The interesting thing about christian identity its very appeased with the evangelical moment of the 80s. In evangelical congregations the deal is that there will be a moment before the tribulations before the end of the world when believers are going to be peacefully transported to heaven so they miss, you know, the messy bit at the end. In christian identity, theres no rapture. What they are supposed to do is survive, right, so they all become survivalists. They are at least supposed to survive, if not to participate in ridding world of enemies which again is all nonwhite people before christ can return. So what that does is take this set of political beliefs and kind of change it to a holy war. They have that sense of apocalypse emergency of what they are doing and that sense of racial calling. One more. You talked a lot about the e archives and what you are able to see from them, but the people you are talking about, some of them are still alive and armed, and, you know, you have been sort of publicly talking about this movement. I wonder if you might talk a little bit about what its been like to writing about people who are you know, at large. Yeah. You know, interestingly, they have not, you know, they have not really been in touch with me about it. [laughter] so i will say this, from the gotten a lot of pushback at various moments. I have been dedicated to writing about these people as people. I will say that that is not usually how theyve been treated in the scholarship or the journalism. And i think that for me the idea is that if you treat them as people, we locate accountability there; right, because then were talking about politics and action and a whole nexus of things that has meaning in a way thats simply saying like those nutcases. So i dont know its totally possible that they are talking about it with great amounts of anger in some dark corner of the dark web, i dont know. I hope that they can recognize themselves in the story. I think any history is trying to do that. Please join me in thanking [applause] thank you. [applause] thank you very much