Transcripts For CSPAN2 House Veterans Affairs Hearing On Whistleblowers 20240714

Patterns. These witnesses willing to blow the whistle even when it risked their livelihood and their careers. Unfortunately we learn the v. A. Continues to struggle with the culture of retaliation against whistleblowers. In in two instances the leadersp and supervisors have turned a blind eye to those in vas workforce that upon investors problems are tempted to expose that actors who abuse their positions or broken laws. And even worse the whistleblowers are often the target of active retaliation. One striking example came from doctor catherine mitchells testimony. In 2014 she was one of a group of people working at the phoenix v. A. Medical center that expose the existence of a secret waiting list of veterans in need of medical care. Instead of addressing this issue the phoenix the english actively worked to hide exorbitant wait times. It turned up such practices were occurring at feasts facilities nationwide. It was deliberate and health and well being of veterans was put at risk. Congress responded to the allegations with hearings taken from the whistleblowers revelations along of long a dit wait times for appointment. The v. A. Still has a lot of work to do to ensure veterans get access to health care and a time and transparent manner. In fact, the committee on Veterans Affairs will hold a hearing on this very topic tomorrow. The phoenix v. A. Employees including doctor mitchell who blew the whistle in 2014 raised incredibly important concerns regarding Veterans Health care. Instead of being thanks for raising this issues, however, they experience retaliation. Their chops were threatened in the face hostile work of art. Their experience is not uncommon. Our tunic of the witnesses during the june hearing also testified about retaliation they were experiencing all i continue to work at the v. A. And they have some protection as whistleblowers. The june witnesses describe many shortcomings within the v. A. For protecting the rights of whistleblowers. Each of these three individuals who testified described ongoing retaliation that they were experiencing despite current laws and institutions designed for the protection as they try to speak truth to power. Dr. Mitchell testified retaliation is ongoing even after she secured a Settlement Agreement with the v. A. To continue to work serving veterans. Clearly the v. A. Must do better. Make no mistake, this committee believes the importance of having people who are brave enough to stand up and blow the whistle on the missteps and missed it within the department. These are people who are trying to do the best they can for veterans and we should be committed to their protection. At the beginning of the june 25 hearing Ranking Member bergman requested we fight representatives of the v. A. And other agencies to testify before the subcommittee. I agreed the Agency Perspective is essential. In fact, the subcommittee will hold an additional hearing with government witnesses in september. Its been two years since congress and v. A. Established the office of accountability and whistleblower protection. Our september and will focus on the results of inspectors generals investigation of this particular office. Todays panel is an early opportunity to hear from das office of accountability and whistleblower protection. In addition the top officials from office of Inspector General, the office of special counsel and that merit Systems Protection Board are present. Each represents a key Agency Charged with protecting whistleblowers. Ive invited to make other whistleblower advocates who appeared on the june 25 panel to ensure a strong and important dialogue with todays government officials. As ive said before and it needs to be repeated again, whistleblowers are an important source of information and they should not be ignored. Their rights must be protected so that future whistleblowers when of confidence their stories will be heard and assurance the allegations will be investigated without reprisal. I look forward to the test when todays witnesses. With that id like to recognize Ranking Member bergman for five minutes for opening remarks. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I appreciate you holding the hearing open to allow us to receive testimony from the government witnesses who administer the whistleblower programs. Scheduling a hearing this quickly is difficult and i appreciate your following through on your commitment to all this hearing as soon as possible. The first Witness Panel recounted case specific complaint, but we had little discussion about the whistleblower process. The discussion bounced back and forth between complaints with vas office of accountability and whistleblower protection, the office of special counsel or osc, and v. A. Inspector general. Witnesses also raise concerns that the current lack of merit Systems Protection Board members clattered its operations. It is critical we understand the division of labor in the whistleblower Protection System if were going to diagnose the problems and craft appropriate solutions. Let me give you an analogy from my pilot back river there are format forces that affect an excellent ability to fly, thrust, weight, dragon lifter when a a problem arises that pt must understand which force is being affected because the response will differ depending on the nature of the problem. The whistleblower process is no different. The remedy for a disclosure problem may be vastly different than a retaliation problem. I want to make sure we have the right framework and identify the appropriate accountable parties to address whistleblower concerns. Behind is a diagram of what i understand to be the whistleblower reporting process or v. A. Employees. When we discuss whistleblowers we must distinguish between disclosures and retaliation. Because when an employee is alleging what an employee is alleging and where they go for help depends on whether theyre making a disclosure or a retaliation claim. A disclosure is the initial blowing of the whistle. It is when an employee brings the attention to the 600 hammer, secret wait list, potential criminal activity. Retaliation on the other hand, is what happens after a Whistleblower Makes a disclosure and experiences an adverse impact on their work or career because of their disclosure. Retaliation may occur when management proposes to remove the employee or move into an isolated Office Without heat or air conditioning. It might manifest in the form of multiple investigations or a threat. A whistleblower can make a disclosure to their supervisor, away wp, the v. A. Hud chief or the osc the compact the whistleblower may make the same disclosure to all of these offices and it is unclear what type of communication exists between the parallel routes for investigation. Similarly, a whistleblower may raise a retaliation complaint to oawp, osc or the msp b. Again, whistleblower can raise his or her claim in multiple forums and could lead to multiple investigations. It was described the process assiduous of the assistance as confounding. The other witnesses echoed that sentiment. In the meat we employed a kiss principle, just keep it simple. But the whistleblower process depicted in this diagram runs afoul of the principle. This is another example of bureaucracy 101, a Government Program with multiple governing offices and diffuse responsible together which together to create confusion and a lack of accountability. Our witnesses are undoubtedly the expert on what works and what needs to be improved in the whistleblower Protection System. I would like each of you to explain your offices role as a relates to disclosure or a retaliation claim. The common grievance is a lack of communication between the investigating officer and the whistleblower following disclosure or retaliation complaint. I would like to witnesses to explain what an up or should expect from investigator in your office, what barriers exist to timely and thorough communication, and what steps are taken to improve this communication. Mr. Chairman, before i yielded i want to reiterate that whistleblowers provide an Invaluable Service to our country. They must believe that the whistleblowing systems take their concerns seriously and investigate the complaint appropriately and efficiently. More importantly, most importantly, whistleblowers must feel safe to make a disclosure. It is evident that the witnesses on the first panel do not have faith in the system. But i was surprised to learn in the written testimony submitted for today that in fy 2018 the v. A. Ig received 35,000 hotline complaints, that whistleblowers contacted oawp 1965 times, and that osc received roughly 2100 v. A. Related disclosure and retaliation complaint. This data suggest many employees are not afraid to raise concerns. But this is not cost to celebrate just yet. Because as the prior testimony made clear, problems remain and theres a lack of faith by many in the system. I hope that with the multifaceted understanding of the process, we can identify the root causes of the problems and make a whistleblower system that works better for everyone. And again, mr. Chairman, i appreciate your reconvening to support hearing, and i yield back. Thank you, Ranking Member bergman. And i very much appreciate your recommendation to hold the session today. In appearing divorced and i are witnesses selected by Ranking Member bergman to offer testimony, and i like to recognize them first starting with dr. Tamara bonzanto, assistant secretary for the office of accountability and whistleblower protection. The subcommittee thank you for putting today. You have five minutes for your testimony. Chairman pappas, Ranking Member bergman, members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today regarding whistleblower protection at the department of Veterans Affairs. Protecting whistleblowers from retaliation is a priority for the v. A. And office of accountability. To protect whistleblowers oawp directly this this is a whistlr retaliation allegations made by employees and applicants for employment against the supervisors. This mitigates the possibility that whistleblowers may face retaliation for making a unlawl disclosure. Since my confirmation, oawp has engaged with other federal agencies including the office of special counsel, the department of defense, the department of justice, the department of labor, and the department of Homeland Security to obtain best practices to investigate disclosures and protect whistleblowers. Oawp has also developed a process to regularly update whistleblowers to make a disclosure to oawp about the status of the investigation into the allegations. The secretary and i recognize the need for improvements to whistleblower protection within the v. A. Oawp is actively working to implement several initiatives that will better protect whistleblowers and i appreciate the opportunity today to address a few of them. We are currently working on standardizing investigator training to ensure that all our investigators understand the law, including whistleblower protections, and can apply in the investigations consistently. We are finalizing written policy in how oawp investigates the disclosures it receives, the policy is concurrence within v. A. , and anticipate it will be issued before october 1, 2019. We also engaged and collaborate with the office of Inspector General and osc to finalize training for all v. A. Employees as required by the accountability act. The training addresses methods for making a whistleblower disclosure, prohibitions against taking action to get support for making unlawful disclosure, and penalties for whistleblower retaliation. The training should be available later in the fall. In addition to continuously improving whistleblower protection, oawp is actively working on complying with other requirements also authorizing statute. Including standing up a division to fulfill our requirement to record, track, review, and confirm vas implementation of recommendations from audits and investigations conducted by the Government Accountability office, the office of Inspector General, the office of medical inspector and the office of special counsel. Since my appointment ive met with several internal and external stakeholders including das h. R. Staff, supervises, the elites, service organizations, nonprofits such as whistleblowers of america. I valued input i receive and look forward to continuing to discuss ways to improve whistleblower protection with all stakeholders. As a veteran, a registered nurse, or a investigator on this subcommittee, and now the assistant secretary for oawp, understand whistleblowers have a Critical Role in stopping misconduct within the organization. The secretary and i value all the eight employees and whistleblowers and a commitment to improving care and services for our veterans. I want v. A. To be a place when an applicant trust that his or her management will take allegations of retaliation seriously, encourage staff to raise concerns and not retaliate against staff who raise those concerns. Mr. Chairman, we look forward to working with this committee and our internal and external stakeholders to identify opportunities and best practices to enhance das ability to protect whistleblowers. Oh id now like to recognize Inspector General of the department of Veterans Affairs, mr. Michael missal. Chairman pappas, Ranking Member bergman, memories of the subcommittee, i appreciate the opportunity to discuss the importance of whistleblowers of the office of Inspector General. We treat all complaint is whistleblowers. That is, we provide the same protections, respond with respect, carefully evaluate their concerns and safeguard confidentiality. The oig relies heavily on allegations, complaints and information from v. A. Employees, veterans and their families, congress and the public with deciding where to focus our resources. There are countless examples of a whistleblowers and other complainants had driven change, not only for the matter under review but frequently at the systems level to changes in policies, practices and personnel. An individual decision to bring allegations forward should not have to be weighed against possible adverse actions. The whistleblower protection act prohibits reprisal against public employees, former employees, or applicants for employment for reporting a violation of law, rule, or regulation. That prohibition extends to reports of gross mismanagement and waste of funds, abuse of authority, or a substantial and specific danger to Public Health or safety. The oig operates hotline that is staffed by dedicated team to receive whistleblower complaints and other information. Our hotline received over 35,000 contacts in fiscal year 18, and over 15,000 contacts for the First Six Months of fiscal year 19. Every contact is reviewed, processed and acknowledged by an analyst upon receipt. We receive information via telephone, facts, regular mail and through a web submission form on our website. In addition, there are also posters in the facilities on how to contact the oig. As result of our site visit and other engagements with stakeholders can oig staff may also be contacted by individuals directly with information or allegations of wrongdoing. The oig in acts with other oversight entities to ensure that all available resources and protections are available to complainants. The Army Agencies that complainants can go to for redress. The oigs website includes frequently asked questions relate to hotline inquiries that outline the types of complaints that are addressed by the oig, and other offices. It also provides Contact Information for those entities. This information is further provided to individuals who call or write the oig hotline. Although the oig advises individuals contacting our hotline how to reach many agencies with the authority to provide relief, we have formalized the exchange of information, particularly for allegations of retaliation. The oig directs those complainants to the v. A. Office of accountability and whistleblower protection, and to the office of special counsel. As part of our continuous efforts to improve our responses and further our relationship with whistleblowers, i will be delivering the keynote address at the annual hotline worldwide outreach conference which honors whistleblowers on National Whistleblower Appreciation Day this july 30. This conference sponsored by the department of defense oig analyzes best practices, discusses lessons learned, and provides examples of the challenges facing the hotline oversight community. In addition, we recognize that some v. A. Employees and contractors may be confused about when it is appropriate to contact the oig about fraud, waste, and abuse in these programs and operations. To that end we have requested that v. A. Share with all employees an email on National Whistleblower Appreciation Day that this information on how and what to contact the oig. We are also working with v. A. To offer more formal training of the oig and the various avenues for redress available to those with complaints. The oig values whistleblowers and information they provide as we explore areas for potential oversight. It is incumbent upon v. A. Stakeholders to protect whistleblowers from retaliation and often violent when no one fears the consequences of reporting problems or ideas for potential improvement. I encourage all whistleblowers to contact us with their concerns, and we will treat them with respect, dignity, and in coffins to the greatest extent possible. Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement and i would be happy to answer any questions that you or other members of the subcommittee may have. Think you, mr. Missal. I will recognize a third witness mr. Henry kerner, special counsel and your recognize for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Good gaming, chairman pappas, Ranking Member bergman, esteemed members of the committee. Thank you for holding this important hearing. Osc is to be committed to veterans and am honored to be a to discuss the ways of which osc can assist the day in providing the best possible service to veterans. Whistleblowers are vital to ensuring problems within the organization identified are fixed. Our contribution process is twofold. First, osc provides a safe channel from the employees and applicants for employment of former employees to make disclosures of wrongdoing and osc has the authority to demand a full investigation of any disclosures that want one. Second, osc works to ensure v. A. Whistleblowers to not face retaliation. We seek corrective and disciplinary action where we can establish with retaliation and we work with leadership to train Management Employees are prohibited Personnel Practices. We are committed to helping the v. A. By ensuring that those patriotic employees who have devoted their professional life to serving veterans, some being patterns of themselves, can do their jobs without fear of reprisal. Like you, i watched with significant concern as break whistleblowers came forward at your hearing last month to describe their ordeals at the hands of the management. I have submitted a longer statement laying out overseas processes and procedures in detail but thought i would focus my brief oral remarks on chronicling some of the efforts i have undertaken in support of our veterans and whistleblowers. Our commitment to whistleblowers is manifested in a external leaked internal process enhancements. I met with the leadership of the v. A. Assumes i became the head of osc. First within secretary shall can in november 2017 and later with secretary wilkie in august 2018, a short time after his confirmation. Ive also had several discussion with the general counsel and acting deputy secretary mr. Jim byrne who is also an alumnus and with dr. Bonzanto at oawp. Ive also met mr. Missal. In all of these needs explain why fears commitment to supporting whistleblowers and within retaliation and i found each and every one of these v. A. Leaders supported. While it is clear more needs to be done to stem whistleblower reprisals at the v. A. , i take these leaders at their word and count on them to assist us by improving the culture at their department. Internally, the cornerstone of my leadership at osc involves what i call oldstyle Customer Service. That means providing whistleblowers Accurate Information as quickly as possible, even or perhaps especially if it turns out we are unable to assist them. I am keenly aware of the criticism that osc can take too long to process cases which is why one of my very first managerial decisions was to the creation of efficiency and effectiveness working group. Following its recommendations i undertook a major reorganization and emerging to offer units into one. As a result of these new internal processes, osc has been much more efficient at assigning cases to attorneys and closing cases where osc may not have jurisdiction. Alysia staff attorneys have forwarded email from complainants grateful to have received introductory email within the first week of fighting with us. Of course we still face a nearly 2600 case backlog. It will come as no surprise to you to learn that we do need more funding to be able to reduce the backlog and provide faster processing times to whistleblowers. Despite this backlog we strive to be as responsive as possible. Osc is part of a mosaic of whistleblower Resources Available to v. A. Employees which includes the office of accountability and whistleblower protection, oawp, the Inspector General and in spd. As an independent agency, osc offers a distinct advantage and delivers benefits that only we can provide. Part of that evangelize in world for disclosing wrongdoing where the whistleblowers are afforded the opportunity to directly participate in overseas assessment of the agencies investigation of the allegations by providing comments and report itself are then made public. This is a future unique to osc and was a blur comments are crucial to my final evaluation of the sufficiency and reasonableness of the agencies investigation. On the retaliation side, osc offers unique Enforcement Authority with our ability to litigate actions for the mspb, taking the decision of whether to correct the retaliation out of the hands of agency management. Together these features allow osc to stand out in the field of whistleblower related entities. Thank you for holding these hearings. I look for to answer your questions. Thank you, mr. Cooper x unlike i like to read thats our, mr. Tristan leavitt, general counsel of the merit Systems Protection Board. The most senior official currently serving the board as acting chief executive and Administrative Officer. Mr. Leavitt you are recognized for five and. Good evening chairman pappas, Ranking Member bergman and members of this subcommittee. Im the general counsel of the merit Systems Protection Board. Im also serving as acting chief executive and Administrative Officer of the agency. Thank you very much for this opportunity to testify. As requested my testimony will focus broadly on the process by which will support cases are brought before the msp b and adjudicated. This year happened but the fourth anniversary of the mspb ricketts was following the passage of the Civil Service reform act of 1978. This plot with the first that your driving retaliation for employees of subcommittee it opened with a series of fighting stating it is a policy of the United States that merit system principles should be expressly stated to furnish guidance to federal agencies and prohibited Personnel Practices should be statutory defined to enable federal employees to what country which undermined the merit system principles and integrity of the system. The Civil Service act recognize the value of whistleblowers. Employees should be protected. The msp was established to fill in a role that a priest been filled by the Civil Service commission. Its really was for cases is to provide a full and fair opportunity for both parties to develop a record on issues and then you decide the matter appeal based on evidence of it and in accordance with statutes and case law. As someone who receive many allocations of executive branch was of a retaliation when i worked on i recognize this mission as established by congress is critical in helping distinguish which reprisal claims are meritorious. The prohibited Personnel Practices rooted to retaliation prohibit reprisal based on different types of protected activity. Under the statute know to receive corrective in whistleblower retaliation claim the appellant must demonstrate that he or she made a protected disclosure, the agency has taken a threat to take a personal action against him or her, and his or her protected disclosure was a computing factor in the personnel action. Even after a finding that a protected disclosure was a contributing factor in a personal action, corrective action is to grant under the law as it the agency demonstrates that when taken the same personal action in the absence of disclosure. If they believe the primitive personal practice like whistleblower retaliation occurred, outside of cases brought by osc, mspb heres to make types of cases. The first type is called an otherwise appealable action. This involves an adverse personal action that is directly appealable to the board such as a removal, reduction in grade or paper suspension of more than 14 days. In such an appeal to both the appealable matter and the claimant reprise whistleblower will be reviewed by the mspb. The claimant whistleblower retaliation is an affirmative defense, if the agency prove it has met the standard for taking action the palate may attempt to prove the agency nevertheless, took the action in reprisal. The second type of whistleblower case is this case in which the individual has filed a complaint but osc has not sought corrective action. This is called in such a right of action. Most of those cases to rent personal actions are not directly appealable to the board. Board. For example, suspension under 14 days or a reassignment with no reduction they paper grade. In such circumstances the appellate is required to exhaust the administered remedy a first filing a complaint with osc. And i will appeal the board will not decide in aspect other than its connection with the claim of reprisal for whistleblowing. In both cases at administrative judge may grant a stay of personal action under appropriate circumstances. Osc may request that any member of the board order estate. Needless to say this authority has been significantly complicate by the lack of any current sitting board members. Despite the lack of board quorum since january 2017 january 201o administrative judges continue to hear and adjudicate cases. Of the 5447 cases administrative judges decided in fy 2018, approximately onefifth were from v. A. Employees. The mspb decide an average of at 180 claims from the employees each of the past three fiscal years and and a contracted site proximate the same number in fy 2019. When general trend i do want to note that is not specific to the date is increasing complexity of both whistleblower complaints and their adjudication. It is increasingly rare to see a case in which the appellant asserts he or she made a single disclosure in retaliation for which the agency allegedly just took one personal action. The case of involves multiple allegations of several instances of alleged whistleblowing and several alleged retaliatory personal actions. Because of the multi part test for jurisdiction over an proof of the claims must be applied to each protected disclosure can whistleblower appeals are often difficult and timeconsuming to hear and decide. Nevertheless, i believe the msp understands congress, executor a Public Accounting on us. I know the mspb aspires for full consideration of each appeal and accords with public will statutes and law. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you. Happy to answer any questions. We do of two additional which is on the panel today, mr. Tom devine, he is the legal director of the Government Accountability project. Also we have this jacqueline garrick, the founder of whistleblowers of america. They both offer testimony at a june 25 session on the earlier panel and we brought them back here to a more full discussion today but since that obligate test at the time they will not give additional testimony today. Without with that i want to thah of the witnesses for the testament. We will now begin the question portion of the bitching and begin by recognizing myself for five minutes of questioning. Dr. Bonzanto, if i could start with you, i appreciate your comment here today. I think it was made very clear to us some of the witness we heard earlier i folks whove reached to my office that we have a cultural problem at the v. A. And ugly you recognized this drink the nomination process. After all hearing last month, we heard from whistleblowers about retaliation thats ongoing and is clear to me there still needs to be culture change underway at the v. A. Your six months into your job, im wondering how you can assess that transition that you said needed to happen and how you will continue to address that as you move forward . Thank you so much for your question, and i do have to say coming from the suddenly as an investigator and now begun at the site of the there is a change in the culture where theres more support from leadership about engaging staff and having conversations regarding retaliation or regarding the importance of engaging staff and addressing concerns. For the First Six Months ive been there ive seen secretary wilkie leases in conversation with leadership. The importance of Customer Service, the importance of engaging, we engage our veterans and listen to all veterans but also engaging our staff and listen to them and the internal Customer Service, breaking the silence and having conversations across the administration to improving Staff Engagement and i think thats a positive thing. I do have to say when i came on board, the partnership for Public Services which assesses best places to work in federal government from 20172018, the move on the bottom third best places to work in government to the top third. I think thats a positive sign from 20172010 and thats a good side sign were heading in the right direction. There is room for improvement and i admit to that and i think the office of the chemical is part of that change in culture as engaging with stakeholders to improve our processes. Thank you for that. I wonder if i get as the other government witnesses who hear the same question. How would you assess the culture that exist at the v. A. In terms of being hospitable to whistleblowers . And what needs to be done and what steps need to be taken by the to ensure that whistleblowers are listen to, that they are protected . Sure, ill take a stab at that. I think its very important that, it obviously start at the top so we need good leadership. When you have good leadership with people as indicated ive met with dr. Bonzanto, and also met with the gc and, of course, the secretary, and i have a commitment that they are committed to trying to make, to improve the culture. I taken afterward. We at lse have a very extensive relationship with the v. A. They v. A. Has in most cases with us so we have a lot of communication with them, starts at the head but also my team meets with, with monthly meetings with them. We also have five monthly meetings on the 714 process which involves discipline. But in addition to leadership you also have threat education you have to people know what the whistleblower laws are. Obviously once you the commitment then abide by the laws and then finally you also need accountability. You have to discipline, accountability. This is what osc policy concers will to try to assist this culture change at the v. A. It takes time to change culture. I think that culture was in place for a number of years. A a little more than a year agoe were doing with the office of accountability and whistleblower protection by fighting with them about access to documents. Certainly weve come a long way from that time. I think with dr. Bonzanto, their head in the right direction page going to take time and with whistleblowers they have to prove to them that its a place where they feel comfortable coming forward and it would not be adverse actions against them. I would just as along with ig missal, it does take time and say my culture can be really nebulas to define and looking at an agency. It also could be very difficult to change. There are a lot of layers in the v. A. My experience from on hill when heading cultural prom at a place of a very long time, a sustained effort along just commitment from individuals by 12 people have the conference that things can work out for the best. Thank you. Dr. Bonzanto, i specifically unconsidered that was super protection and that is a charge of your office. I understand that new policy ps underway and youve alluded to those. I just want to get some higher degree of confidence today that the steps are underway for you to improve the protection of these individuals who are so valuable to the process. Could you highlight those steps again for us to make sure that were going to have greater confidence coming out of the strength of things ahead in the right direction. Was of course. I do have to say one of the things i was listening through the hearings and also engaging with stakeholders, some the things ive learned in our process and beating other departments within the executive branch is to improve anonymity and medication with whistleblowers, so they understand what you are in the process and that Customer Service, understand that there might be a fear of retaliation and giving them confidence in the system and understanding that theyre putting the job the online coming forward and thats something were working on improving and truly trips and seven. The other thing is empathy. Empathizing with whistleblowers and finishing their perspective and that something, though skill set to be developed with my staff and are working on that. As im working on rolling out these policies its is also img training from a staff and understand the importance of this and engaging with leadership throughout the v. A. And taking this from the top and working with the secretary to improve communication and the importance of Staff Engagement is where we are at. You have my commitment to that and that something i will continue to have these conversations about it. Thank you. I appreciate your response. Im not satisfied with where things stand today, but i look for to continue to work with you on this and certainly others what questions as well. With that i like to turn it over to the Ranking Member for five minutes of questioning. Thank you, mr. Chairman. As we put up our chart here on the front end, but it does finally the kiss principle a little bit from the confusing, the most important people i think to understand that how it works are the people who would be your whistleblowers, whether they understand, they may not understand on the front in how protected they are, but if you confidence and vacancy how the system is designed to work for them initially, that will build the confidence to come forward. So having two medications being key, now this is dr. Bonzanto, mr. Missal and mr. Kerner, i like a Quick Response on the following. Of the major grievances here is that whistleblowers believe that organizations investigating their disclosures do not communicate and her office, if will, effectively. What level of communication should a whistleblower expect from your offices and what barriers exist to meet the whistleblowers expectations today with respect to that communication . I can tell you a barrier that exists in my office is that i cant disclose who the individuals are to the oig or osc without their permission. And if they choose not to that makes it difficult. If it already reported they share information with anyone of these entities, that makes it very complicated. We continue investigating what we might be investigating the same thing without knowing. When the complainant contacts our office, their contact is acknowledged if they do it through a web submission, a fax, other than a phone call. We send out an acknowledgment that we got it. We also then while, and if the case is accepted, we let them know that the case has been accepted. At that point forward until we are done, due to confidentiality and other reasons, its really difficult to give an update on where we are. But when the case is closed, meaning either we dont have an allegation or we have findings, we will publish a report, and so the complainant within be able to see the results of their complaint. So when i talked about the Customer Service at osc, what we are basically talking about is three pillars. One is we want to give Accurate Information in a timely manner, in a polite way. Its really important we provide that Customer Service to people so when we get contacted, we try to get to people as soon as possible. So we have under the statute, for example, what you describe as the retaliation action with 50 days to get back to people that i with us. We try to do under five days, to make sure we get back to right away, that we tell them we has a case, that they the have an aside investigator who they can contact. To make sure that they are heard, that we get to the cases with some dispatch and that we handle the cases in a timely manner. When asked about barriers, we have not insufficient staff for the cases we have. We with 6000 new findings roughy every year and with a small office, about 140 fulltime employers including some in field offices. So the barrier is we try to get to the cases as soon as possible but sometimes we just have a lag and the backlog that takes well to get to. Thank you. Dr. Bonzanto, oawp seems to perform functions that are similar to those of oig and osc. To what extent can oawp create a synergy among the organizations in order to best address the whistleblower cases that arise . One of the things thats different with the oawp is that we are within the department i report directly to the secretary. Part of the law requires us to review, receive, track and confirm implementation of recommendations from the investigative entities. Thats something thats unique. Its also within the department, we have one area where we are receiving disclosures, so its getting the data were written on the whistleblower disclosures recommendation 70 ig, osc, gao and office of medical specter, that data together to given opportunities for improvement within the department. That something thats unique in what were doing in oawp, and i think thats different than what the other entities do the making the recommendations but within the eight we now have the responsibility of ensuring those recommendations are implemented. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, i yield back. Thank you. I would now like to recognize ms. Rice for five minutes of questioning. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Dr. Bonzanto, although the v. A. Has procedures for investigating whistleblower complaints, these procedures have allowed the Program Office the facility for whistleblower reported misconduct to conduct the investigation. So gao even found instances in which managers investigated themselves misconduct. How do you plan on addressing this issue Going Forward to ensure independence in the report, investigation and that things are done in an unbiased way . For oawp, we investigate all allegations related to retaliation. We also investigate allegations into Senior Leadership for performance and management. We do have the authority similar to oc to refer cases back to the administration. Part of improving our processes controlling is we develop a questionnaire, or to a question of the basically triage these cases to ensure we are not referring cases back to the broken office where i manager who is involved in the case is going to be part of that investigation. Its improving my intro training or my staff and also creating these templates with a checklist of standard questions to go through to again improve anonymity and improve communication and ensure people involved in the allegation are not part of the investigation. I mean, thats good it is a know heard before about a level of frustration on the part of whistleblowers that its hard to have an unbiased approach when the person heading the investigation is involved. Right. So one of the other what we heard, and it was really disturbing in the last hearing, and how actions taken either v. A. Against whistleblowers, follow them for the rest of their careers. And impact the future Employment Opportunities if they were to leave. But it doesnt seem to be the case for the more seniorlevel employees who retaliate against them. So when issue that i be interested to hear yours in anyone elses feedback on that i think speaks to addressing the cultural issue and holding seniorlevel employees accountable is how relevant information or documentation on instances of whistleblower retaliation or substantiated misconduct is shared across the v. A. At the leadership and facility levels. And if a seniorlevel employee had been implicated in whistleblower retaliation disclosure but no official action have been taken against them for misconduct, is this type of information shared across the v. A. . And if not, do you think it should be . Are you to clarify, youre speaking about if an individual, this claim against retaliation to substantiate, if there is recommendation regarding that we have to report back, if the recommendation come out for display action regarding retaliation is not all, we have to share the information back to a report directly to the sectors of leadership is what if that doesnt happen. It just seems that there are more negative, theres a much more, much greater negative impact on the whistleblowers obviously than the people who retaliate against them. There doesnt seem to be that much accountability at the higher levels in the v. A. For actions they may take against the whistleblower versus sometimes career ending impact it has on the whistleblowers themselves. So how can we make that a more consistent across the board, i mean, the whole culture of the v. A. Start at the top and if people in high positions are not being held accountable when whistleblowers are actually having, you know, a much larger impact professional personal impact. How do we address that inconsistency . Part of our office when we talk but display action mr. Metaxas and thats part of the Data Analysis we have to do. We will be able to identify those areas where a leader is refusing to take action against someone who is claiming, who has a substantiated allegation. Can you, is a something youre just starting to go to get information on . Right, this is something, i been in office for six months of this is something that is important and critical and the committee has said we want to know where these the data poin. How are you going about compiling that information . Its through recommendations for disciplinary action. When we give a a recommendation for display action, if those actions are not taken that something we have to track witn our office. You will be sharing those with a . Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I yield back. Id like to recognize mr. Bost for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Dr. Bonzanto, as you know, with issues a district in maryland v. A. , and of the alleged whistleblower retaliation. One of the main concerns the staff hazard about and has communicated several times is individual v. A. Employees, is making location between your office and individual employees. In your opinion, whats a reasonable expectation of a munication stein from your office to disclosure and retaliation complaints . Obviously not everything reported is going to be have evidence to back it up and the initial claim. But when this happened and the claim cannot be confirmed, dos your office at the v. A. Employee who sent the disclosure or retaliation no so that they know the actions are being taken . Thats something were working internally to improve. They are five days i think for something sensible for us to strive to get to. I would say my expectation is that each employee has about within seven working days to give responsible receive your application how things are also working on is understanding where in that journey, wendland was to getting this get a look at this touch by phone also have communicating to my staff in oawp the important for him both a whistleblower, the person that investigated of where they are in the process. One thing that i do want to recognize here and say is that although times employees want to know why the net display action was taken. And employees to have a right to privacy, and do something that we inform you how to go that getting information regarding the case, the purse were investigating, but i cant as an entity we dont disclose the whistleblower whether not display action was taken against the person that they alleged. Thats because theyre both employees, therefore right. They both have the right to privacy in the process. Next question i have is for all the government witnesses. Sometime during these processes, obviously whenever they want anonymity, sometimes that doesnt happen. Or sometimes you find the person who has been had the whistleblower on them all of a sudden finds out who it was did that. How do you handle those situations . Each one of you. So its fashion we dont conduct investigation in the way the other agencies do so if its known, the agency will know. We work very hard to make sure it doesnt happen sometimes though if its an office which has a small number of its fairly obvious but right to privacy when they do report it to us with the need to go further. We explain for us to go for these are the steps we have to take just to make sure the person is aware of it. But we tried very, very hard to protect the confidentiality of anyone who comes to us who asks to remain confidential, and i believe we do accomplish that. We dont disclose the identities of the person making the claim unless they want us to. If theres a need for them, for example, by getting a state of the personal action against them, et cetera, sometimes they will falter but for the most part we protect peoples identit identity. And oawp we are also protecting whistleblowers. I do have to say in retaliatory case if you choose to remain anonymous its very difficult to ask questions regarding retaliation if youre choosing to remain anonymous in disclosing that information. But employees we do not disclose employees information unless they choose to. So one last question because i have less than a minute at this before also issue. Individual v. A. Employees understand the process of bringing forward a disclosure and retaliation claim, complaint. Or do the employees think all other offices can handle the complaint . Do they know the process . The kiss process, a nonofficer can we understood very clearly. Do you think these employees under this process now understand how to file and, truly file claims . Im not confident thats happening. With that being said we are working, oawp is working with the oig and the osc to develop training regarding whistleblower cases, like whistleblower reporting when you want to make a disclosure. I dont think they do. Thats why i frequently ask v. A. Employees what do they know about the oig . Wherewith they go for a complaint . Its all levels at d8, some of the more senior people dont really understand the relationship between oawp, osc, oig and thats what we feel so strongly that v. A. To put out a training that we have prepared on when to come to the oig, when to come to some of the other avenues, and we hope that training gets implemented. We work very hard to try to get whistleblowers to know about us. We try to raise our profile. We do press releases. We also count on the agency to a 500 we have an agreement with the general counsels office that if there are personnel actions to let them know we exist as a child. We also do training, mandatory trainings for supervisors and others about practices and so we are hoping that employees do know about osc and as i said, as we press releases and other ways to make ourselves known, i think that you can we get a lot of cases from the v. A. So we do think a lot of them know about it. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, i apologize for going over time. I yield back. Thank you to mr. Rose, you are recognized for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I want to follow up with what you all were just saying thinkt these trainings because i do feel like we can do this in a bit more of a deliberative and quantitative manner. Worst of all, mr. Missal, you had mentioned there are trainings that you hope to be happening . Am i correct in saying that . Correct. Whats going on court who is saying to . Nobly has no peer were working through the process if its a long process. We put together a training program. V. A. Has a pretty Extensive Training Program for a lot of different areas, including maintaining confidentiality of documents, protected information, et cetera. So no one is saying no. Whats the timeline for when this happens . We hope its sooner than later but its been months in the works. So we should take to secretary wilkey to urge him so the training is faster so people understood who to go to. Yes, sir. You can count we will do that. What about staffing whether its oig or the other offices you represent. Vas second largest department, billions in budget. Do you feel youre adequately staffed to both respond to whistleblowers as well as protect them thereafter . Well start with you, dr. Bonzanto . Currently im adequately staffed for what im doing. I dont think that were adequately staffed for what our requirements, obligations and responsibilities are. As va has grown in tremendous size over the last five to ten years, our office for a long time remained relatively flat. Okay. We appreciate the increases congress has recently different us and were getting to a better level, but i dont believe were adequate. Lets get into the detail there. What do you feel you need to adequately fulfill the expectations we social with your doig or other respective responsibilities . The house prepared for 222 Million Dollars from us the increase from the previous year. Just given, we want to grow in a measured and controlled way we think that that would be adequate, but hope that would be just a series of increases Going Forward. Okay. Sir . Thank you. Were all understaffed as i alluded to a couple of times and weve had a tremendous growth in cases and because of that, we have a significant backlog, about 2600 cases that are backlogged. 2600 case backlog. How long does it take you to get through that. Depends on the staffing level. If the staffing level is maintained . Every year we get about 6,000 now cases and we resolve about 6,000 new cases, so we have a backlog of 2600 every year. You tell me thats relatively a sixmonth backlog . Yes, that seems right. Walk me through, from an individuals perspective. Right. Yes, whistleblower comes forth, gets becomes a part of the backlog. Correct. Six months . Well, i dont know if it takes six months because not all cases are the same. Some are more fact specific or intense. At the aggregate 6,000 cases in the year and roughly 3,000 backlog so thats six months. So, what are some of the what are some of the consequences weve seen of that backlog . Well, so the consequences are, we just dont get to someones case, which means you might have a very meritorious case of whistleblower retaliation and unfortunately by the time our examiner gets to that weeks or months have gone by and their frustration level ments can you give us a specific example . Theres just cases i dont know. You can pick out of a hat. Whats happened where theres been a consequence of that backlog . So the consequence of that backlog would be that a whistleblower had their case sitting with us, and doesnt we dont get to it for a while. The testimonies at the last hearing where the witnesses talk about how the case takes a couple of years, now, why does the case take a couple of years . Sometimes because of discovery, right . Youre waiting for documents. But sometimes theres also, either changes in staffing or people dont get so what do you need to address this backlog . More staffing. How many more . We currently said as they said in the house bill were at 28 million, which is a million and a half more than we have now. That would certainly be a big help. Okay, thank you very much. Thank you. Ill recognize for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Mitchell, the ig received 35,000 hotline contacts in fiscal year 2018. What percent taming of hotline cases closed without investigation and what percentage are investigated and could you please explain how your office decides whether a complaint merits further investigation or should just simply be closed without action . Of the 35,000 contacts, as i testified, we analyze and evaluate each and every one of those. The number that turn into an oig investigation is a relatively small percentage. Again, its a resource issue. We take the matters that we believe are the most significant, most impactful, have the greatest risk to veterans or tax dollars and so, we can only take a relatively small number. A number of the other cases that we or contacts we get, we may refer over to va and ask them to take a look at it and report back to us or just refer it to them or a number of the others we may send to another agency such as osc, which is more capable of handling it, if its a retaliation case since mr. Kemr. Mr. Kerners office has more retaliation than we do. Mr. Kerner, of the approximately 128 cases they received last year how many were disclosure cases and what percentage did osc close without investigation . And how does osc determine whether a disclosure warrants further investigation . Yes. So, what happens is, we, in terms of the determination, we have to meet a Legal Standard. The Legal Standard is called substantial likelihood. So when we get a case from someone of disclosure we have 45 days by statute to make the substantial likelihood determination. If it does rise in the opinion of the investigator or the lawyer to the standard, then we refer to the agency and it takes the agency then for investigation, we dont actually do the investigation. If we dont if it doesnt reach that level, then we close that case. I think in terms of the last cas cases lets see, one second. So we had approximately 2100 va cases. The disclosure cases at va were about 431 and i dont have the exact so its about 39 . I dont have the exact number of how many we close, but we probably we almost certainly dealt with all 431 so and they were closed without investigation . Some of them, yeah, if they do not rise to the level of the substantial likelihood, those would be closed and almost all of them were addressed certainly by this sorry for fiscal year 19 we have 431. For fiscal year 18, 641 va disclosure cases and they would be addressed within the 45day statutory requirement. Thank you, mr. Chairman, i yield back the balance of my time. Thank you very much. Id now like to recognize mr. Cisneros for five minutes of questioning. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Dr. Bonzanto, you had said earlier that the va definitely needed a culture change and that really needed to happen at the top which i wholeheartedly agree with that. But how is that, that change, you know, the secretary is dedicated to this. How are we getting that down to the va facility so that they know that a culture change is happening . How is your Office Making sure that those individuals, the supervisors at the facilities know that retaliation against whistleblowers is no longer going to be tolerated . Sure, thanks so much for that question and this is something when we speak about internal Customer Service on the conversations i can give you the example in my office, what were doing is having the secretary does have town halls with the employees and hes leading from the top and promoting that, the importance of Staff Engagement throughout the organization. So something even internal to woap have division calls with my hands and having allhands calls with my staff. Those are things that were doing internally to promote the importance of Staff Engagement and listening to employees when they have. But hes talking to your staff no, im giving an example, hes taking leadership and im doing that with my staff as an example of what were doing and the other part of what were doing is the training that were developing recording the whistleblower training regarding what is happening and what each of our offices are doing to protect the whistleblowers. Is this training for supervisors or every employee . Every employee. So what specifically are we doing regarding supervisors to let them know that this treatment is no longer going to be tolerated . Is there anything being done specifically for them or are they jis getting the same training that everybody else is getting . All employees have the same training, but also, supervisors, our Office Investigates retaliation and thats what were charged to do at i get that. How do we change the culture . Youre putting this out to employees and letting them know its okay to come out and report the whistle blowers, but how are we letting them know how are we letting supervisors know this isnt going to be tolerated anymore, that retaliation, the way it used to be done, is going to change . I mean, what is being done different to address supervisors that they need to change the way theyre doing business or business has been done in the past . Thats through training and promoting the offices that we do have here. I know, but youre saying the training is for everybody. So its pretty much, its probably a general training thats given to all employees. Right. But is there a specific training thats dedicated to supervisors to let them know that when youre a supervisor last week i had to go to a training that was meant for members of congress and how i treat my staff. It wasnt an overall all members employed by the house of representatives training. What are we doing specifically for supervisors to let them know that business is changing the way that things used to be done, were not going to tolerate the way that we treated whistle blowers in the past. I can take that exact training for the supervisors regarding retaliation. I know we have the all employee training for every employee, but specifically for supervisors, i could take that for the record and get back to you. Mr. Missal, youre chomping at the bit there. In 2017 Congress Passed the Chris Kirkpatrick law and required whistleblower training for all supervisors. Our office does have training for all supervisors and we do that on an annual basis. Has that been effective . I think its very effective. Its a very good training program. I recently took it and so i can personally say i found it very helpful. All right. If i could answer some of this. I was just going to jump let you, mr. Divine and miss g garrick, i wanted to give you a chance. Its been six months. The real issue, what youre asking is about accountability and when we talk about training weve talked about training for years and years and years. That is a paper tiger answer and its so infuriating because there is no fear at training. There have been all kinds of whistleblower training and theres lots of training. The fact that we can show from so many people that contact us, they never get responses to their emails. There is no policy in place that explains any of this. The va put out a report, a 14page report with a pneumonic, we, too, care instead of a policy statement. That is just so unprofessional, im at a loss for words. And the fact that we dont have a good Bargaining Agreement with the union, we dont have a Mentor Program that we started that got disbanded. There is a lot of things that the va was doing, could be doing. Weve tried to get regular accountability meetings, scheduled quarterly meetings with the vsos to go over some of the disclosure issues, but the fact that not a single ses or a single manager who has wasted government money has put veterans and their care at risk has not been held accountable, that should be something that this committee should be furious about. Congressman, we certainly welcome the cause for improved culture and attitude and dr. Bonzantos appointment and the whistleblower pledges full support for her, but better attitudes at the top arent a substitute for results. The results arent Getting Better from our experience, sir. Before the hearing last month, a day before the hearing, one of the key witnesses was fired by the va. Thats intended to send a message. Working with the office of special council mediators ap attorneys for the last year and trying to resolve six whistleblower cases and despite the on the call of duty efforts by the office of special consult, the va hasnt been willing to resolve any of the case in a civilized manner. If theres any issue thats a weather vane, whether its making it, its the secret waiting list. The scandal broke and horrified the nation and the va promised to do much, much better. At last months hearing all three whistle blowers were exposing secret waiting lists. And the testimony on secret waiting lists. The problem isnt going away. Its not surprising why its not going away. The va had an effective corrective Action Program that was doing outstanding work with handson efforts in the medical centers to correct the problem of secret waiting lists and that was canceled and replaced with a pork barrel contractor, kind of buddy system contractor scheme and if you look at if you look at the transition, which happened within the last two years, its impossible to be optimistic whats happening at the va. Mr. Divine, mr. Devine, i apologize were a little over on his time for questioning. Yes, sir. But, a couple of us will ask additional questions and might get you to allow you to expand on that a bit. I appreciate your response. With that id like to recognize mr. Peterson for five minutes. Well, maybe well pick up there, mr. Devine, we were asking our government witnesses to gauge a little bit the culture change that needs to happen and the steps that theyve outlined. Youre not satisfied with that. Would you like to continue or offer any more comments in that vein . Yes, sir, the its the secret waiting list issue thats eating at us. The va had a very effective unit. Verc was the acronym, it was going into the hospitals and cleaning up this mess. However, it was replaced in the congressionally chartered commission on care, applauded their work, recommended giving them more resources and authority so that they could better pursue their mandate, and the va responded to that recommendation by canceling the work of the verc, merging it into another unit, which laid off all 127 career employees. Who were seasoned veteran professionals in solving these problems and replaced them with an outside contractor under the sleaziest of conditions. The outside contractor had access to inside budget information in order to customize their proposal. The reorganize that brought them into powers instituted without congressional authorization is required by law. The outside contractors were benefitting from federal spending for a study on how to replace federal employees with contractors, which is illegal. The outside contractors were violating federal accusation regulations by supervising federal employees, and whats happened with this . Well, now instead of having hands on work at the hospitals, its the paper work review where the medical centers certify themselves on an honor system to the outside contractors that that solves the problems. Theyve canceled the site visits. Theyve theyve stopped making progress and the crust cost of this has increased. Weve replaced effective action with a buddy system pork barrel scam, mr. Chairman, and that doesnt leave me feeling encouraged about the progress of the veterans administration. And then we have the wrong doers investigating themselves. We have government money that doesnt get properly spent and the oag, one of the reports that i cite all the time, is this 11. 7 Million Dollars that went to caliber while orourke was ahead of. Woap. Theres no resolve to that. The money doesnt get called back none. Vba people responsible tore that contract there was no accountability for that. There was they were they recommended more training. So thats why i get so frustrated when and then we have caps on arbitration. Why are caps at 5,000 . Who is going to go through that process when thats the resolve . We have va employees experiencing cyber bullying. There is no one at the va that will investigate threats, threats of stalking and actual physical harm to va employees who are whistle blowers, and the oig doesnt do it. The va police doesnt do it. Who does it . Theres no accountability for that kind of cyber stalking. Why do these things take years . I have filed a complaint with waste for Suicide Prevention money at the va and something the Committee Says is a priority and that case sat open for 2016 while veterans are dying by suicide. Why arent we asking oig the gao, im sorry, said money wasnt spent. Who is accountable for that . It appreciate your perspective and its valuable. I want one more question before my time is up here and then i defer to the general for the final question. Doctor bonzanto, in your report recently issued, theres a section called on the horizon. Im eager to learn just what is over the horizon for your agency . Included there are some very fundamental steps issuing a policy on whistle blower disclosures and communicating with whistle blowers and standardized training. Developing specialized teams including on the retaliation matters. Not included in there are very specific timelines and i heard you mention a date earlier with respect to the training program. Im very interested in understanding and learning more about the specifics of these things. The timelines for these, so that we can follow the progress and look to hold your agency accountable in the future. Can you provide any of those for us today . Or follow up with us with those details . Yes, sir, so i could speak for the timeline as the policies roll out as we expect by october 1st to actually have our directives involving investigations and what we do, and how we do. As for the rest of the requirements here and the calendar year, i expect to have actually all of these implemented and hopefully we can start measuring the metrics to give you some type of idea where we are and what our challenges are by the end of this calendar year. Okay. Thats vital. I appreciate that. Id like to follow up and continue the conversations on those issues. We need to know that information. General bergman, id like to turn it over to you for any final questions. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Just, i want to set the record straight here to make sure i understand it. Dr. Bonzanto, he said that mr. Gebly was fired and i september for the procedures and was advised she was put on a hold. Do you have the ability to confirm where we are on that . On this one . Or if you cant, if you can take that for the record . Ill take that one for the record. I want to understand where we are in the process. They have the ability to take holds on the actions taken on the 714 and thats something that we have in the statute to protect whistleblowers. Mr. Kerner, any chance you might know that. Yes, i believe we have a hold on it. Okay. Well just doublecheck here because we didnt again, this is all of this is recorded and we want to make sure we didnt misstate. I checked with the person who does this in our office and she informs we do have a hold. Anyway, my question is, again, mr. Kerner, what is when we talk about Training Programs and getting people up to speed and on the same sheet of music, what is the 2302 c Certification Program . Has va completed the certification . What does the certification convey . Va and vig as well are in the process of recertifying. They have been previously certified under the program, but were recertifying now. The 23 program is where theyve taken on the responsibility to voluntarily have an active role by teaching and educating supervisors and making sure that everybody complies with the retaliation and other legal requirements. So specifically we act as a certifying entity for agencies and as part of that role, we work closely with them to ensure theyre meeting the standards outlined in 230 c to protect whistle blower employees. For a lot of them we dont actually do the training, but we provide slides or other materials for the training and that we certify when they come back to us and comply with the training program. So thats what we do with that. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, i yield back. Well, thank you. Do any of the members have any additional questions before we close . Well, seeing none, i just want to highlight a couple of points here before we close the hearing. First, the subcommittee takes these issues very seriously and were going to continue to track the disclosures and the needs of va whistle blowers. Lets be clear on one fact. Whistle blowers are performing a Public Service and theyre a critical resource and they need to be protected. The Inspector General will be issuing a report about the vas office of accountability and whistleblower protection and a committee will review and await those details. Were also awaiting information from the office of accountability and whistleblower protection and as i asked for today were very much interested in further details and policies and procedures and timelines how we can best track that progress moving forward. Frankly the testimony today left me wanting more so i think that further discussions and further hearings are warranted to ensure that things are moving in the right direction, but i remain concerned. Concerned after a hearing at the end of june, where we had three witnesses describe some pretty harrowing circumstances that unfolded over many years. Individuals stepped forward just wanting to try to do the right thing so we have more work to do and we look forward to talking with you all in that process so want to express my appreciation for each who appeared here before us today for offering your km, your thoughts, your views. We heard a lot of important thoughts from our government witnesses and from the whistle blower advocates and we thank you for being a part of this again today and there wasnt always agreement certainly, but the dialog is important and it must continue. Ultimately were all working towards the same goal ensuring that the va serves our veterans as best it can. And there are ways that we all understand that the process can be improved. And whistle blowers are a part of that process. Dr. Bonzanto, you have an important job ahead of you, you all do, as you make sure things are headed in the right direction and we stand with you ready to work every step of the way. Its pivotal that we come together for the protections of whistleblowers and improve services for our veterans and id like to turn it over to the Ranking Member for any comments he may have. Thank you, mr. Chairman. To echo briefly what the chairman said, we have the responsibility to protect the whistleblowerses to create a culture in which everyone is held accountable and we will do our part as the elected oversight part of this and were counting on all of you to do the same. Thank you very much for holding the hearing, mr. Chairman. I really appreciate it. Thank you, members. Well have five legislative days to extend remarks and extraneous material. 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