Served in the u. S. Army for 35 years. Retiring at a Lieutenant General and command troop inside both afghanistan and iraq, earning five star madals, one for valor. He is a contributing editor for Army Magazine and the author of eight other books and currently teaches history after North Carolina state university. Chuck hagel has long served our country. He was the secretary of defense from 2013 to 2015, and before that a u. S. Senate from his home state of nebraska. During the vietnam war, he served in combat as a sergeant in the u. S. Army and earned two purple hearts. This combat infantrymon and the vietnam yes cross gallantry. He walk as a Congressional Staff assistant, cofounded van guard cellar, served as the deputy head of the u. S. Veterans administration and became the president and chief executive officer of the uoo. The author of america, our next chapter. Tom hagel was born in raised in nebraska as well. In combat he earned three purple hearts, the bronze star with a v for valor, and the combat infantryman badge. He graduate from the university of nebraska at omaha and the university of Nebraska School of law. After working at a public defendanter in nebraska, he taught law at temple university, and then joined the university of dayton, retiring as a full professor inch addition to his emeritus professor role he was acting judge for the Municipality Court in dayton, ohio. He is an author. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome daniel bolger, chuck hagel and tom hagel. [applause] thank you very much for that kind introduction, and thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for coming out on this rainy election day to spend some time talking with the haguele brothers, and to my right, chuck hagel and to his righting his brother tom. Eye id like to both gentleman, 50 years ago, november 7, 1967, where were you . Not 1967. Oh, 67. Right. I cant remember that far back. Well i was we were in california at fort ord. And i was getting ready to leave to go to fort dix, new jersey, because i had orders to go to germany, and you were finishing. Right. We were in advanced enfan tritraining, and infantry training and i followed chuck all the way through. Was about, what, four weeks, six weakened behind now in the training cycle, both in basic training and then infantry training. Where did you do basic. In el paso, both of out. Like a desert. Fort bliss, theres a reason they call it bliss. Everybody is happy. Everybody is happy. So then, by november 67, you fib ended you had orders to germany. Of course, cold war was going on then, ladies and gentlemen so there was a substantial u. S. Force in germany, but the vietnam was war also going on. So, did you forever to germany . No. I got to fort dix, new jersey, in late november, and as the bus was getting ready to pick up ten of us, to take to us germany, we were the first class of the redeye missile gun, which was the first shoulder, fired heatseeking missile in our arsenal. It was designed to bring down lowflying jets coming in, migs, from the soviet union over the through the pass in germany. I decided, if i was going to be in the army and going to serve my country at a time when we were at war, then i wanted to go to vietnam. So i went down and tom did the same thing i said im private hagel, here are me orders to germany. Want to volunteer to go to vietnam. And i recall vividly in the orderly room there was this stunned silence, and they put me in the back of the room and said, son, come back here. They brought a chaplain in, and they brought i think a Security Officer in, because immediately they thought something was very suspicious. I was running away from a crime or something was wrong. That eventually i stayed there for two weeks, got new orders to go to vietnam, went back home, for a few days, and then went to california and processed out for vietnam. Then about four weeks later, i ended up in fort dix, new jersey. Remember riding from the airport and the back would open and two and a half ton army truck, and it was freezing, deep snow, and i remember driving by the px, and i saw this poor guy this is about midnight poor guy, walking a little trail around the px this is new jersey, United States, not exactly a lot of enemies around. With a rifle which im sure was empty, Walking Around the px in his little trail with i remember an outdoor light glaring on and i was thinking, i cant do that and im supposed to go to germany as well, and i had the thing about cold weather to begin with. And i just couldnt do that because the we were told our group were told well spend i think six months living out in the black for rest, running maneuvers in the snow in germany and then go to vietnam, which turned out dish ran into a couple of my friends who went over and i ran into them in vietnam. They were just getting over there. So i went and volunteered to go, too. They didnt call in a security people or chaplains for me. They were happy to do that, and keep in mind im 18 years old, Something Like that. I got net hi head dish remember seeing a movie about brothers you have two brothers, more brothers in a combat zone, they can only hasnt one there can only have one there and the rest good to a noncombat unit. I thought ill go over and chuck can come back. No problem, just get ahold of the red cross and you get keep in mine, im 18. I dont know anything straight up. So, fine. I went over there, landed, and went to the Assignment Center where they divvy up the troops to the different units and i said where is the red cross . And they point possessed some tent and i walked in, and my him that is tom hagel youve probably know all this and youll seen theyre like, who are you . Well, obviously, didnt work. So we both ended up there. And to follow on that, both of the haguele brothers were draftees, but in each of your cases, it wasnt a standard draft where you just get the note and report. In both of you exwhen contacted by the draft board, what axe did you take. I was called home. Id been to three colleges, and not an academic career to be emulated. So, the director had been the director during world world war, and the draft board in platt county, nebraska, said well get you six months to get back in into school and then well have to take you because the levy was coming down, the big buildup, over half a million troops in vietnam when i got and built that even bigger. I just said, i think its a waste of time, certainly for any respectable educational institution, for me to go back. Im not getting anything out of it. How soon can i leave . Ill volunteer for the draft but i want to good right now. They looked at each other and said theyre actually a bus leaving in two weeks. I said put me on it. I signed up there. And that was it. You were still in high school. Oh, yeah. Got took my physical and got my draft notice when i was in high school and i got the same letter. They said, we, well send you in september, and i was not going to sit around all summer with that hanging over hi made. Over my head and i went now. Was in army five days after high school. I mentioned that just because when we you often hear people say the army and vietnam was a draft army, which is true, and the army today is a volunteer army, also true. But here you have two Vietnam Veterans who were basically volunteers, even though officially their records show us at draftees. There was another opportunity you got. If you want to comment what happened when your potential was recognized and you were recommend for officer candidate school. Both hagels had that opportunity. Over to you. Well, ill give you my take on it and then tom has the same thing but hem have his story. I wasnt particularly interested in it because it meant another year. And i wasnt sure i wanted to take another year and that would be three years, and the other thing that kept going through my mind was the fact that our dad was in world war ii, and over in the south pacific, was a tail gunner the a b25 bomber and spent quite a bit of time there, and he was enlisted and came out of tech income cal sergeant. Maybe there was some romanticism about our dad and being a sergeant, but i think that subconscious she affected me, too. I think the main thing was i just want want to commit to the third year. Didnt know how that would work, and so i said no. When i was offered it, i keep keep and mind i1 years old, not too bright and i was sitting there thinking i learned very quickly that officers had a lot better life to lead than being an enlisted man, especially the low private e1 i was. They explained its a 52week program. So im thinking, okay, and by the okay, both of us had to go through advanced infantry training to be able to then go into officer candidate school. So no heart now it shook down well be trainedded a infantry men, which was fine. But a basic training last sodding on and advanced training lasts so young and its a year in officer candidate school and i had it firth out, by the time i get out ill have six months left. Thought this isnt a bad deal. So i went along with it. Until i finished infantry training and they got the grouping to to take out for fort bening and said we want to go through this one more time. Keep in mind, that the 52 weeks you spend there doesnt count against the two years youre already in for. I said, well, forget it. So i refused to go. Probably in everybodys best interests. So, two brothers, both volunteered for the army, volunteered again nor infantry, and tom, i think at one point they didnt want to put you in the infantry. Chuck mentioned being a redeye gun exa specially, cut tom, i i thought theyre did the initial screening that recommended you for another possible specialty. Can remember that. Ive seen your record. Believe it was cook. Oh. Well. No what it was, i had had a ton of jobs. Spent much more of my life as a teenager working than i did in high school. One of the jobs i had was pizzamaker, cook, things like that, and when i refused to go to officer candidate school they didnt know that would do with me because the orders were cut. So they vent me back to a training giant made may cook for a month and then cut me new orders for gemini, and the rest is germany and the rest is history. Culinary argentinas. I can keep 20 eagles going at one time without burning them. Impressive. Your comment about working, one thing that you should note, the haguele brothers were raised the hagel brothers were raised in nebraska in a rural area, and you mentioned work little about of you guys worked from very young age. In fact, chuck was nine and i was seven when we got got our first job together in a grocery store, sacking potatoes and ice. All this is manual, of course. 10pound bags two two cents a bag ask that with big money back then. I think i messengered this to you, tom mentioned this to you, tom, you know how the Social Security system works so you get an annual review of how much you have paid in and when you started paying in. And i was looking at mine the other day, and i started paying into Social Security when i was eight years old. I was eight years old. And i remember the job. At drivein next to to the grocery store. In rushfield, nebraska, car hop and i had to take a little box out because i wasnt tall enough to get up to the window, and stand on the fox take the order. And i always look back on that, why they would have taken Social Security out but a i probably made enough now buy a hot dog and that was it. Thats when i started to pay. So we worked all off lives, and probably every job that they have. I think thats good. That work ethic, of course, would help you during your military service, certainly. So both of you gentlemen arrived in vietnam. Chuck in december, tom in january. And initially you were both in the same division, the ninth infantry division, but thats a big organization. Thats 20,000 troops. But not the same unit. Not the same battalion or company. Initially. Yeah. Thats a tom and i still dont understand all that, how that happened, because he was up north, within colonel pattons cav, and i was with the 247th, and we tried to put in for transfer so see if we could get together. We talked on the phone, and one day tom appeared in our unit, which still is kind after mysterious they were just going send me somewhere south to be somewhere around but of course one intervening event was important and that was after a few days after tom arrived the largest enemy offensive of the war broke out on january p1, 1968. The tet offensive. And both of you were involved in that. Yeah. I got there in iland on december 4, 1967, and of course, tet was, january 30th . At the end of january. And that, as you said, was a defining time for that war, for the optics and for the casualties and those who have had an opportunity to look at ken burns magnificent document troy get some historical reflection on what really happened about that. Its still being debated and so on. But that really did define, i think, our service, tom, in vietnam. It defined everything. Kind of the direction of it. Absolutely. Defined the war. The turning point in america politically in every way. And for the rest of your time, particularfully public service, you kept a picture from that time. What was that picture . Well, tom knows about this. Tom was not with me at the time that his happened, but when i was in the senate, i think you met him, tom i got a letter one day from a retired army colonel in wisconsin, who i remembered the name. And i couldnt put it all together but a very nice letter, and he said, dear senator issue i was a lieutenant in the same company, not the same platoon. We were mechanized unit, and the first unit into west morelands headquarters that morning, widows village, and he said i took a picture with my little brownie instamatic camera and i was behind your track of the ammo dump in long bin, the largest in the world, blowing up. And he said id like to come by when im in town and give it to you. So, we set up a time that he came by when i was in the senate, and had a long conversation, and he gave me an eightbyten picture of this little brownie instamatic picture. Look like an atomic bomb going off. Then he autographed it for me and i kept that on my wall the rest of the time in the senate and secretary of defense and have commit my office as well. So its a reminder, which tom and i have discussed many times about, again, the significance of tet. The scale of the destruction. All this, ladies and gentlemen, for chuck hagels unit at the time, they were in and around the city of saigon, the largest city in South Vietnam and the capital of south saigon. The people who live there call it saigon. I was in long bin, replacement unit, and they came in and said, how many of you have infantry los . And collected us and put is on a perimeter so we were involved in it from trying to keep them out of the long be enh base it and was huge. I think every a couple of days i got orders to go to 35th 35th cavalry on the dmz and it was just as crazy. Mose people if you watch the ken burns special or served in vietnam or know people who did, the north is the area where it was right next to the socalled key militarized zone so tall the North Vietnamese troops, best trooper, filtered down. It was a tank unit. So major fighting at that time was occurring. Where tom hagels unit was, that hole area under attack during the tet period. Yeah. So, you mentioned you both sent in a request to serve together. Whatever happened with the red cross idea that if you could get in country, theyd send chuck home. They never got back to me. Shockingly enough. Yeah. This one thing writ helps when youre the author and its decade later and you can actually dig up the actual paperworks. Heres what found. There is not only a regulation within the department of defense that secretaries former secretary of defense hagel would know about but also a United States law passed after world war ii. You may have seen the movie the fighting sullivans or the five Sullivan Brothers from his. In world tar they unlested in the navy and second together on a light cruiser and the uss juneau wasser to pea bode i by the japanese during a night action, and many of the crew were lost, including all five of the Sullivan Brothers. And it was so devastating for the family by the way in the navy in world war to named that destroyer the sullivan. So theyve been memorialized throughout the country history am movie was made called the fighting sullivan. Lahmmakers everybody the war said we cant let this happen again. So they passed a law that became known as the sullivans rule, and this law said that two close family members cannot serving to in a combat zone while in involuntarily. This last part is the key part. Because both hagel brothers had asked to serve with each other, guess what the sergeants and officers said when they got them . Does the sullivan rule alive . Nope. Set that aside. And the in i didnt know that. And because you volunteered to do it. I might add, ladies and gentlemen, what was really unusual about thick chuck and tom. They didnt just serve noth a large 20,000 person outfit. They were in the same rifle platoon, 30 to 40 soldiers all together at the same time. So they really served closing to. Next to each other. Right. So when your brother showed up, what did you think . Well, i was concerned when they we were out on a search and destroy mission for four days, and they pulled me back into the base camp, and when i asked what is going on, my first thought was something happened to tom. I remember explicitly the captain saying, son, if we wanted you to know wed tell you. And that was kind of the order of the day. Its the way it was. So i waited in my tent, and a few hours went by and the next thing know i look up and tom walks in with his duffel bag. And the rest is history. Exactly right. The First Sergeant told you if your brother was he was going to put him in your so there they were. What did you tale your mother about that arrangement . You did all the writing. Shouldnt surprise anybody. Well issue always signed toms name, forged it. My mother knows the different. But tom did his share in the communications part, but i think mom felt that if we were going to be over there, and in that war, it probably if we wanted it, it would be better to be there together and take care of each other. I think thats what she felt. The outfit was a mechanized unit, which means to say they had small vehicles that would look to you or i maybe like a little tank but hat anymore it rather than a big gun. Tracks, and the to soldiers were in the back, being carried around, had member guns on top. That unit was a response unit, fire brigade. We call Quick Reaction force. All the anything that was really a hot situation, your outfit rolled on and had to good quickly. They had a siren in the motor pool, they played when it was tike everybody mount up and go. But many, many operations, all the road around saigon were of course mined, booby trapped, ambassadorred and theyre outfit has had the responsibility to clear them and clear the villages. So i was that a very fateful day for you two gentleman on the 28th of march on 1968. Out on a mission when something happened. What happened . Well, we were on a search and destroy mission, in the jungle, and tom and i had like we often did, walk point, and just a second here. When he sauce walk point, that means theres a long column of men and the first two guys the haguele brothers. Mop didnt know about that. She had other issues. We could tell her about. But i think tom and i just felt i think our platoon leaders and the Company Commanders felt that we could do a pretty good job on that, and i felt we could did it better than anybody else. Tom was the best i truly ever saw in sensing things. He saved me, saved the company, many times on spotting things. I could read a map pretty well,. And use a compass. And a compass. Now, today when you ask somebody about a compass goodbyes, the gps, the tone. Talk about shooting an azimuth. Thats what you did. You shoot our azimuth on which direction you go and you relied on your come bus. Its not that way anymore. Anyway, i could do that pretty well so could tom, but we made a pretty good team doing that. On this particular day we had been up on point, most of the day, and if youre on point, too, youre chopping a lot. Especially the point guy, which would be normally tom and id be right there with him, behind him with the compass and the map but usually with a ma set machete because your off the road. So we taken out of the point pacing to give us a break and put other guys in front of us, and we were crossing a stream and we tried always stay off the reads because or any path for obvious reasons but all the booby traps where everywhere. And the point guys, which tom and i had just been those guys, hit a trip wire in the water, and there were mines in the trees and claymore mines are mines that are filled with pellets, and like bbs but high explosives. Do some pretty rough damage. And hit all of those front guys, and they hit tom and they hit me. Thats what happened on that day. We i always look for his name on the wall, robert summers, the point guy who was killed. And then they had to get the severely wind out, and our severely wind out and summer summers in the basket, and the jungle was very dense and then we you dont know if the snipers normally snipers would open up. You it could be a trap to bring a helicopter no and so on. But we got the severely wind out and summeres out and then we had to get out. And youre bought both wound. It was getting to be nighttime, and as the old sagos, the night belongs to charlie, the vet congress and vet have i etcn temp. The company commanderred a to us get out espouse we started to move after this was the wound taken out, the one kia taken out and so on. And we got a few steps into it, tom was walking again point, and he stopped and he caught saw a grenade hanging in a tree, and i didnt see it. And he saw it. And we were able to neutralize it and get around it. Finally got out but it was dark. Even in the afternoon its dark but a therefore ocanopy. So breath powered earned the purple heartment heart that day. When you go through the tsa at the airport they fine things. Ive got i know tom still has a little shrapnel in him. I have a couple of pieces in my chest because when they took we went into the Field Hospital and they dug stuff out and fortunately it was significant but not that significant. So they got the stuff out of me. I was more surface but ive still got a couple of pellets still in my chest so its more when i take an xray or mri, you have to tell them because those things show up, and but its never given me any trouble. I think mine got out, too, just took awhile. Worked its way out. And thats 50 years later. Yeah. Now, even though wounded, both of these soldiers went back to their unit. He thing i might also mention is, chuck and tom are young men. Theyre not senior experienced ncos with ten years in service or anything like that. But the role they describe, that point role, is normally in todays army done by a relatively experienced parra sergeant. Him that came sergeants but they became sergeants in combat by doing those type of missions and had to take charge of the other young men who were with them because you were willing to do it and had the skills. You went back to your unit, and then about a month later what happened when you went into the village on the armored personnel carrier . I think they got intelligence that the vc entered a village, and we were sent out to sweep the village to find out if there were vc there. Swept the village and came back on our tracks and the way the tracked, the apcs, and since we were always the first track out, we were always the last track in, and of course since theyre track vehicles you can do a 360 turn and so again we were the first ones out so everybody when they cam back to at the tracks, loaded back up and then they did the 180degree turn to come back in, and all the other tracks were in front of us, got passed it and since we were the last track we ran over a mine. And chuck and most seriously injured. I was injured. Yeah. Tom whereas injured. I thought tom was dead, actually him was the Radio Operator on the machine gun. On top of the vehicle. And when that concussion hit, it obviously disabled the track, fires broke out because the track were full of ammunition. And they would blow. And i was on the side and so i my face was burned bad, and so on, and but started looking at everybody necessary the track. Some guys had been blown off and tom was slumped over the 50 caliber, he had blood coming out of his ears, and nose, and he was unconscious. And so we got him off the track because snipers were everywhere, and like tom said, they were the other tracks were way ahead of us and fires started to break out. So i didnt know if he was dead or what happened to him, but we got him off the track and they took us out by helicopter into a Field Hospital. Chucks face looked like it was bubbled on this side. The skin and pretty gross. And now so again, second set of purple hearts for both brothers, second time wounded, and you went back to your unit. In fact when you went back, you were all wrapped up. Yeah. Looked like a mummy. My face was all bandaged and i had to put salve tom had to help me. If hadnt been my brother, how many other infantrymen would have come to come to a different conclusion about take. About taking a our care of me. I got infections in my face. The jungle, hot, humid. So that had to put salve on the face but tom did all that hitch was the medic, and, and had been seriously hurtment we were in the Field Hospital for a couple of days. I dont remember it happening and i only remember being in the hospital. I just remembered being check out. Win back to the unit and then we mentioned the tet offensive. The North Vietnam yes and the have i etcong launched second a take in may of 1968. You called it minitet but is weighings focused in saigon so the call went out gone the 247th, their outfit, and company b this, company to intervene, but in the city, for city fighting, both of you rolled on that mission. Thats right. Tom had the bulk of that because where i was, i was at the nco academy and so so roll into that. It was totally different than anything i certainly experienced, or our unit experienced. We were always out in the field and jungles and rice paddies but this was inside the city of saying gone and streettostreet fighting, chaos, and you have people shooting at you from every different direction. Cant see where most of its coming from. And if you ever have the opportunity go saying saying gone. Its beautiful. You had multistory buildings and they would have michigan machine guns on it. Absolute chaos, but it work out. Might add, he is being very humble here. Cut a few parts out. He was awarded the bronze star with the v for valor and wounded a third time, and the mission that he had, that they gave him, was our battalion commender who was shout done was the brotherinlaw of general westmoreland and he was killed and they were trying to rescue him from the saying soar saigon river. Tom played a big role. Absolutely and i think thats one key thing that to remember is that westmoreland was human, too. They think the generals and president dont have anybody they have been country was involved and his brotherinlaw was. If you remember, tom, westmoreland had just gone back as chief of staff of the army and craig abrams had taken over and he westmoreland came back to lead the search himself force this brotherinlaw. Because they couldnt find his body. One of the many that were missing in action. They did eventually recover it and tom was heavily involved in that particular fighting around that episode. They found his body with bat three other people still in the hospital at the bottom of the river. In the river. Horrible. Before we do questions id like to get your perspective on this. Things back home affected the soldiers deployed over there 1968 was very divisive year in the United States. One of the most tragic events occurred on april 4, 1968, in memphis, tennessee, when assassin called Martin Luther king jr. Martin luther king jr. Was the effect of that killing for you. There was a certain amount of segregation in the army then, even though it was apparently against the law, but it was i think more of selfsegregation. But i know the our unit we never had any problems. We had people from every ethnic group, serving to, everybody got along. Part of it is is because of the nature of the unit you had had to rely on one another so theres no place for prejudice and his simple but racism and after the news came that dr. King was killed there was a separate kind of almost automatic, immediate separation of races into different sides, literally different sides of the camp. We lived on a Fire Support Base and there was a lot of tension, and a lot of anger floating around, and of course what that does to a unit, you dont know if you can trust the same buddy you had before. So, we were lucky enough to have officer, an africanamerican officer who addressed it and you want to talk about that . Well, tom, framedded up exactly right. The racial tension was palpable. And because we had officers rotating in and out a lot, partly, sometimes mainly because they had been killed, or seriously injured. We got a new company commander, as tom said, young, i think he was 21 or 22. Africanamerican. Africanamerican lieutenant from chicago, named jerome johnson, and he grabbed ahold of the racial issue,. Straight up. Straight up, and said no more. Were going to integrate the tents again. No more black tents, white tents, were going to be a unit. Were going to fight together, take care of each other, and he truly exhibited leadership that i rarely have seen in a very difficult situation. He was threatened by both sides of the equation and he faced them down, and to this day tom and i have now found him, the last few years and reestablished our friendship. He both feel he is an individual who we have had respect for over the years often thought of him. I was a tough time, as tom said. It was difficult. And a lot of units didnt have good fortune we did to have him and there was people, stories of people shooting each other, and fragging, throwing grenades this was at a time, too when america was becoming more and more divided, Bobby Kennedy was killed and the democratic convention. It was really coming apart and that was being reflected certainly in these 19, 20yearold kid having to fight this war they didnt understand, that america wasnt supporting, and youre going to just bring out every ugly dimension of a society when you have that. And this is one of the rains i always thought we talked about this many times of the vietnam generation, these kid that were asked to go over and fight, really win you back up and look at it all, acquitted themselves pretty well. Really. In a very difficult time, and handled it in i think a really pretty magnificent way. With all the other problems they had to deal with aside from the fact they were in the middle of a war. I often think to contrast that time with what we have been going through, the last 15 years with these idiotic wars in iraq and afghanistan that were still involved in. One good thing that was a massive mistake to ever get involved in those two wars, but one good thing that came out of it, i think, is that now American Society can look at the people who are sent to fight a war separately from the war. You can be a against the war but still support your troops. In our situation, here you have young guys, in fact when i got out of vietnam this is even every extended my threw even after i got out i had to wait lamb year and legally buy a drink. I what that young. I got to it but ways of work around. Couldnt vote then. Right. Couldnt vote. But imagine you are involved in a war, especially you have a combat role, and everything you hear through the we didnt have a lot of access to media but every you hear from the United States is how the war is evil and youre baby killers and youre sitting there, going, what am i doing with my philosophy putting it out here, any day now i could get killed and what am i doing it for . All the people back home, you would hope would support your efforts and respect you for it, but it was totally different than that. Nowdays, at least from what i see theres a lot of support for troops coming home, as there should be. That was one thing we got right. Yes. Because of your sacrifices and those that fought alongside of you. We have time for questions and i know theres microphone on either site. You want to s a question of the haguele brothers or myself, please line up at the mic. Yes, sir. This is on. I was curious, as best as you can recall, any political aspects you recall . What mean is, in a troop or patrol you have people thatter very young, experiencing life they best they could people above them that are telling them to do things that are life and death, that are very young and trying to do the best they can and you have an aspect like today, everybody hat needs and wants and desires. What were the dynamics of being in a group like that, all being sharing, trying to protect yourself, protect them, protect each other and also from a political aspect, from a combat perspective, anything you can recall or recollect on that. I dont recall really having any in depth political discussions. One reason is that keep in mind how old we were. I was basically a ignorant 18yearold kid. I barely graduate from high school. I didnt know anything about international politics, diplomacy, affairs, economics, things like that. And i dont recall getting into any serious political discussions. Lib rat liberal versus conserve it. Let me elaborate. Get on the sergeants good side i get dinner 0, internal politic. Or die this, i get an award that gets me out. I dont remember first of all, the idea of if die this ill get an award, never crosses your mind. People dont compete for the purple heart. No, not a lot of people standing in line. That means yao just got in the way. I think tom is right. I saw some things and tom did, too, where there are some people fabricating valorous action which didnt otour get awards. Im not sure that was unique to vietnam. I think it happens in every war. They were usually higher ups. Yeah. The guy on the bottom, he is just trying to survive, frankly, and so i think toms right on that. But i think i would just add this. When glory those situations, and when youre in those situations and youre young, many of the young people we served with didnt even have high school degrees. Could hardly read. Its all about survival, and taking care of each other. That is where you are, where your head and is everything. And youre not too interested in anything beyond that. You just want to get, in get your job the world view is so narrow and confined just to your life situation. Keep in mind how close you are when youre in a unit like that. We slept together, ate together, did all personal functions together. There was no privacy whatsoever. I mean, youre probably closer on a daytoday bay this than you have ever be been with your family. When you go to the restroom at home your close the doors. There werent any doors and there werent any restrooms. You did everything together so you got to know each in and out and thats good one on hand but on the other hand when something happens any other questions . I want to thank you both for your service to our country [applause] appreciate you secretary hagel, did your anytime vietnam and your service lead you to your political career . Did that have a bearing on it or did you think you would have just gone in anyway and gone down they path . Well, i dont income my service in vietnam direct he led me into a political career. It affected my thinking, surely, because of what is politics about . And what is elected Representative Government about . Accountable, responsible leadership, and i think everybody now knows we didnt have that from top to bottom in the vietnam war. Cost thousands and thousands of innocent lives. So, sure, i was affected by that experience. Dont think it directly led me into that. I had pretty good career before i got to the senate and all the other things i had done, but i always had an interest in politics, and always felt, and tom knows this that if things would be aligned, family, business, opportunities, maybe in the right way, that i would be very interested in doing something in politics, but i could have finished my life without any of that, too. Im glad i did all of it. Its been tremendously rewarding. Its been a tremendous privilege. But it helped me, the vietnam war and that experience, like tom said about experience, because it defined a lot of my thinking, spec especially when is was secretary of defense. He all came out everything from the bottom up, not the top down, and didnt mean im right or wrong or smarter than anybody else but that was my experience. I did the same thing in the senate. So, affected me but didnt direct me into politics, but i think, i hope, it helped me. And i hope it made me a better leader. Yes, sir. Theres been some polling recently that talked about the divisions in the country being similar to vietnam era and im curious if you agree with that and what you think the reasons may be, the things dividing us now and how do they compare with what was going on in that time. Tom do you want to start . Yes. You look at the history of our country theres always been dissent and specifically when it comes to issues of war and peace. Theres always been protests movements. Go back to the civil war, the draftth riots, world war, 1 elationists but america always seems to come back to equilibrium. But it was different, i think, with the vietnam generation the vietnam war in particular, first of all, it came at a time when you had the civil rights movement, which was no small thing historically. But one thing for sure that i think defines that is that was the first time from my reading of history i could be wrong on this that a massive number of citizens lost faith in the institutions of government in the leaders of government, because they were lied to for so long, that they didnt trust anybody. I think that is a hangover. I think the last election is a good example of keep in mind these are people who are our age, who are the highest group of people who vote, demographically, and our childrens age, and it seems like we lost that trust in government institutions and leaders, and rightfully so. We have been lied to for so long. I think the institutions are all right little, just the people would round them and regardless of what you think of President Trump i think a lat of the vet for him was vote of representing that. We distrust our institutions, distrust the government, both political parties, and were angry and we just want to smash it. So in a way, i think that chickens have come home to roost but a our current politicians too often i dont trust them either. Think the continuously lied to us, but we have allowed ourselves to be lied to and reelect them all the time. They forgot they work for us. Were citizens. We run the show. Its our responsibility as citizens. They work for us but for some reason as a society we have lost that, and we just let it go on. And so consequencely i think a lot of the distrust of governmental institutions and political system and both parties, can be tracked back to as a beginning point the vietnam war, because it was so clear after a while, especially with all the archives that and the materials that have been released where the society and the troop were lied to, blatantly lied to about the vietnam war, the causes, the attempts to stop it, that so many people lost faith and still have not regained it. I think toms put his finger on the breakdown in trust in our institutions and our leaders and i think it has produced the kind of political environment we have today, the deep divisions, the wide divisions. I would add one additional point to that. On a broader scale, i think we are seeing a new world order being defined today, and built. A world order that is different from the ten years after world war ii that america essentially led with our allies in building. Its a worldard the 70 years thats been pretty good. No world war 23, now nuclear exchange, mow people are free, more economic opportunity, more economic diffusion around the world. The problems that that world order didnt face cant do everything, is the trouble spots in world today. How that relates to american politic, its confusing because everybody in this room, i suspect, and most people watching, was born during world war to or after world war ii. And what does that mean . That means that our world has been a world that america has dominated everything. And essentially everybody. And that world is shifting now and changing, and its presenting a lot of new dimensions and dynamics and challenges that we have nod ever had before. I think toms point about when then you had that reality, and doesnt mean its bad or good. It is how you respond to it and how you adjust to it. But you have the fundamental, when you break down the trust and confidence of your governing institutions in a society, youre in trouble. Its not just government. Its not just politics. Gallup does a poll every year, has been for 16 years, they take the 15 major institutions in this country, and they ask the question of confidence and trust. The mail tear is military is the only one that is anywhere near above the 50 line. I think this year was 76 . The only other one over 50 was Small Business because everybody likes Small Business because thats the man and woman in your home town and you can trust them. Everybody else, big business, lawyers, politicians, pharmaceuticals, the media, organized education, organized religion, all down in the 20s and 30s. Turbo some issues. If you have a government that isnt functioning weve had a dysfunctional government the last few years. You are going to have this tremendous outburst and reaction out there in the populist that things are really bad and going the wrong. I prefer to believe, im always an optimist i guess, but i dont think a blind optimist, i am a realist, too. The reason for that is we are a nation of laws and have a constitution its so much better than they are seeing today and the leaders represent our institutions. On that note with great conclusion, thank you both. [applause] the first four and a recipient of the medal of honor since the vietnam war. He writes about his childhood in france and adoption by an American Family and combat experience in afghanistan. This is 45 minutes. It is my honor to invite to the podium the Vice President of programs for the World Affairs council and the chair of this conference