Transcripts For CSPAN2 Russia Doping Program Whistleblower Protections 20180222

I am join today by jim walden, the attorney for russian doping whistle whistleblowerrer, for this work into the dark underworld of fraud in sports and what we can do about it. As an administrative aside, would like to mention that camera crews are permitted to record the briefing in its entirety. Our topic today is a russian doping scandal, a story of corruption and fraud on an unprecedented scale. It has now been demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that the russian state was behind a systemic effort to dope their athletes and defraud the olympics. No one can say how deep this rabbit hole goals and how long these corrupt practices have gone on. But what we can say is that it is a microcomp of the conflicts playing out road the world. As clean athletes compete against cheaters, so do legitimate business men face off against oligarchs and governmented based on the rule of law do battle with authoritarian kleptocrats and must like at the loamics, without the benefit of the transparency, and the bravery of those few who stand up and say, enough is enough, it becomes immeasurably more difficult for democracy, human rights, and free markets to succeed. Dr. Rog which henko is a brave person. He was the lead architect of russias staterun doping program. Working with the fsb, the successor to the soviet kgb to cheat the international checks put in place to prevent doping by olympic athletes. That all changed in 2016 when the doctor blew the missile on the program he had once helped facilitate. Resultings in suspension of russia from the 2018 winter olympics. His revelations generated a revitalized debate on the need to combat corruption in International Competition more generally. The doctor now lives a precarious life in the United States, relying on whistleblower protection and fearful that russian agents may one day come knocking. He seldom gives interviews or makes statements due to this very real threat on his life. But we are lucky enough today to have jim with us, who will read an original statement from the doctor as well as speak to the mans story, his hopes and fears, and the centrality of whistleblowers in the fight against globalized corruption. To conclude, i would like to remark that the word corruption is mentioned 14 times in the National Security strategy. Which i have with me today and would like to show off. Many are coming to terms with the tremendous threat that globalized corruption cent to build a financial and legal architecture and this sort of society is exemplified by whistleblowers. And i am humbled to speak today with jim, who represents one of the most impactful impactful and courageous such whistleblowers in recent years. Before i hand the floor over the jim, we would like to show the trailer for the as star oscar nominated documentsry called ick it tills thester of the does reveal the staterun doping operation by russia and the implications for his decision for him and the world. The idea i had was to prove the system in place to test athletes was bullshit. I started on this knew what it would lead to. I asked gregory. He helped me gregory, did all the testing for sochi. Going to test my samples through his lab in moscow. I was facilitating one of to the most deliberate doping in sports history. Wait, wait. Lets back up one second here. Or the master mind that cheated the olympics . Yes. And that set off this whole chain of events. Today the World Antidoping Agency suspended russias sports drug testing lab. 9 of russian athletes are guilty of doping. An unimaginable levelof criminality. Ill get the flight for you. Holy shit. The department of justice criminal investigation against you. I im innocent. Talk to you guys about this. Youre recording. Okay. Well, first of all i want to thank paul for having me. Its a pleasure to be here. The original invitation wore for the doctor and for rains described he cant be here but ill read a statement. Its a great honor to come to a Congressional Commission to talk about the importance of his work and specifically to talk about the critical junk cure we are in dr. Rod tchen consecutive served for ten years as the director of the moscow antidoping structure, collection of laboratories that was supposed to enforce a code to help catch cheaters. The world antidoping eight, wada, i the indicate cal van guard in the fight for clean sports. Theyre supposed to be thegate keepers and you will not be surprised to learn theyre budget is made up of money from the ior and many individual nations. Youll further not be surprised to know the United States is one of the largest contributors to wadas ruth. Its 2. 3 million annual contribution, the second largest only behind the ioc. Now, as the world now also knows, while dr. Oodchenkov was working to catch cheaters, he had a dark secret. His bosses in the kremlin, who were supposed to be completely independent of the moscow Antidoping Center, ordered him to contrive an elaborate doping system to allow russian athletes to cheat, clean athletes from around the world. At world competitions, including but not limited to the olympics. Now, it would take me about three days, eight hours a day to explain to you how sophisticated and how many people were involved in this systembut given the time constraints ill boil it down to six main components. There is out of competition testing, mean nothing competition, and incompetition testing. When i talk about in. Television testing im talking about the two events in 2014, the World Championships and the olympics in sochi. With respect to out of competition testing, the doctor disclosed russia had long had a system that was referred to as the disappearing positive. For protected athletes, meaning those people that were on national teams, they would take performanceenhancing drugs but then would from time to time be required to give urine test, the primary method to detect cheating. Those olympics those athletes, when they came into the moscow lab, for out of competition testing, would be pretested, meaning before the official test began, and if their urine sample was positive, meaning a dirty test, that test was never downloaded to the system, a system that links to wada. Once a dirty same is downloaded into the wada become wears of it and action to suspend the athlete occurs. Deciderring the doctor this disappearing methodology was in place for russia for visit the entire time he was the director of the russian Antidoping Center and was ordered not by him but by his bosses in the kremlin, and it was helped he orchestration was assist by the center for sports preparation and the fsb which, as wall said is the sundayor Successor Agency for the kgb. That is out of competition test. For incompetition testing, testing while the games are going on, the system was dizzying in its checks and balances to ensure that russians didnt get caught. Before the games, athletes were given a very sophisticated cocktail of three performanceenhancing drugs. Now, the main problem with taking performanceenhancing drugs is that the time during which it stays in your system, but the doctor devise he a way to mix them with alcohol and have the athletes swish is in their naughts and spit another so it is absorbed under your tongue and that would keep the performanceenhancing drugs out of your digestive sveum and mights it harder to detect. But because the athletes were taking these leading up to and sometimes during the competition, the athletes were producted to give clean europe, meaning urine that it provided when they werent taking performanceenhancing drugs, so that there could be a way to switch their dirty urine, taken during the games, with clean urine that was collect before. There was one are major obstacle to this problem. For those who dont know, during competition testing, when an athlete gives urine, the athlete gives two examples, an a aboutle and a b bottle. The a bottle is used to testing during the game. The b bottle is used in case theres a positive test in the a to check the b about toll make sure it wasnt a about toll make sure it ones a false positive. The problem this abouters are tamper proof. Made bay Swiss Company has a technology for scotches that if you remove the cap, the cap breaks and you cant use a different cap because the cap has serial nab that is the same as the bottle. But the greatest innovation was when the fsb found in 2013 that they could open the b bottles, which everyone, including the doctor, believed was impossible, because if you can open the b bottle, then you can put clean urine in it and put the cam back on cap back on. They opened the bottles i without breaking the cap. Then during the games as testing began, the fsb could open the bottles, replace the dirty urine with clean urine, restore them to the lab, and then test them and the idea was that they would then test clean. But there was another problem. The fsb could not control for surprise inspections on athletes. Both in competition and out of competition, and from time to time, wada would send doping officers to take random samples for athletes and so in the instances the fsb had a team of people that would intercept the samples samples and confiscate them. So that in five minutes is a system that had so maybe a components to it, its too complicated to go through. Now, the doctor, melt be clear about this, dr. Rodchenkov has no ahead but to participate if he wanted to stay alive. Despite this service to the russian federation, when german media started to leak details of the russian doping system from other whistleblowers, and it bake became a major problem and a wdka investigation started, the doctor learn they kremlin was hatching a new secret plan, plan to blame him as the lone woolf and they planned to execution this by executing him, and staging his suicide. And when he learned this, from a friend of his at the kremlin, it did not take him along to decide what to do. Within two days, as you saw on the trailer, he was on an airplane to los angeles, determined to tell the truth about the russian statesponsored doping system. But he didnt come alone. He brought with him powerful evidence to corroborate the truth of his claims. He brought a hard drive. He brought flash drives. He brought the telephone that he used when he was at the moscow lab. And what he did with that evidence was to turn it over to antidoping authorities, and what they found was a gold mine. Details that have only come at the you have seen the tip of the iceberg in media reports. Emails between himself and other coconspirators about, among other things, the disappearing positive methodology. Memos that he wrote to his bosses at the kremlin and within the fsb, detail something of the problems and issues with the doping system in russia, and copious handwritten daily diaries he had been keeping since he was boy, of every detail of every day at the sochi olympics, including information about what he was doing for the doping system, and what his supervisors were doing for the doping system. Since he came to the United States, the doctor has told the truth, first in the documentary and then to the New York Times, and then to an independent commission established by wada, head bay renowned investigator, named professor richard mcclaren. Now, professor mcclaren didnt work alone. He assembled a team. A team of experienced investigators, Hard Scrabble people that were skeptical of the doctors claims, and because he knew that he couldnt just rely on the doctors word, he hired people to review all the evidence and also to look at stored sames of russian athletes the b bottles that had been taken from the sochi lab and moved to a another lab, and what did professor mcclaren and his team of investigators find . They found that doctor was completely credible and, moreover, that his evidence was fully corroborated by the documents which they determined to be authentic, and by a rigorous and expansive testing protocol for the samples, which showed clear evidence of tampering both of the bottles themselves because of scratches and marks, and because adjustments made to the urine to make the salt levels macthe salt level that the athlete gave at the time of the incompetition testing. Tell tale signs that the doctor was telling the truth. Most importantly, the doctor produced the actual list of protected athletes, and the met da metadata showed the list was not created by him but credited by the senator for sports preparation, one of the main organizers for International Sports and key conspirator and just so happened that the scratches and marks and the salt found in samples of russian athletes, because they tested many, many sames. The only people with scratches s and salt manipulation were the very people on the famous list,. After the doctors truth was up held by professor mcclaim, doctors cooperation did not stop. The ioc then set up two disciplinary commissions and despite the fact that they delayed significantly interviewing him and ultimately getting evidence from him, they themselves set up a completely different forensic testing system of the same bottles that mcclaren tested and confirmed the report. And the doctor committed himself to submit can over 200 pages worth of affidavits with met meticulous detail and the involvement of officials officif coaches and athletes. Lets just stop here. None of the doctors revelations should have been news to anyone because the evidence of a russian states sponsored doping system has been mounting for years, and it would take me a day to go through all that evidence, but let me give you couple of snippets. In 2008 the olympics in beijing, and never beijing games, seven russian athletes were suspended for doping violations. After in the previous year, whole flock of other russians had been suspended. The New York Times ran an aural, because of the month suspicion, and they said im paraphrasing because of the number of suspensions, and the very sports of the suspended athletes, troubling questions are starting to mount about a statesponsored doping system in russia. But then in 2013, wada was concern that doping was on the rise, and starting a 2013, they published a yearly report of the country that had the most whats called an analyticals a verse finding, doping violation, and get what the report showed . Russia had a staggering 225 adverse analytical findings in 2013. 20 more than the second ranked country on the list. So, in 2014, wada kid it again, what what did they find . Russia had 148 adverse an it in contractual find, 20 above the next highest ranked country. They did it again in 2015. What did they find . Russia had 176 adverse analytical findings. 36 more than the next highest country. So, think about that for a second, ladies and gentlemen. In three years worth of time, russia had almost 550 adverse analytical findings, and that in and of itself is not compelling evidence of a statesponsored doping system . I dont know what is. But i know what the ioc determined. The ioc determined that the doctor was credible, and based on his evidence, they banned 43 of the athletes from the list for lifetime bans against any further olympic competition. So, it is obviously important to talk about the doctors the corroboration and the verification that he is telling the truth. But you know what truthful person does . A truthful person tells tells te truth no matter whether the truth is guilt or innocence. And the ioc did something important based on the doctors information. Because he exonerated some athletes. There were two wrongly accused russian athletes, and rather than simply trying to blame everyone, the doctor called it out and said, ioc, i have no reason to believe these two people were involved. They werent on the list, they didnt have scratches and marks. They didnt have salt content and i dont have any recollection of being told they were protect athletes and based on the doctors evidence, the two athletes are now competing again. But the ioc did Something Else important. It suspended not only a number of coaches but a number of russian officials, including the Current Deputy Prime Minister of russia, who orchestrated the state sponsored scheme, ored it after the dismal russian performance in the vancouver im licks and they found him legally responsible, cull panel are foe the statesponsor erred doping system. Thats the good news. Now here comes the bad news. Where are we now . Its not good. Despite all of the extensive cooperation and evidence, what result at the end of the day has the conflicted, selfpolicing system of the ioc what has it delivered to the mission of protecting clean athletes and upholding whistleblowers like the senator im sorry to tell you that the situation is simply shameful. Now recall something. The ioc has a track record with respect to violations, where Foreign Governments, up unduly influences a National Olympic committee or lab. The example is kuwait. In 2014, kuwait passed a law and the law, any oc roos view, unduly harmed the independence of the kuwait can i Olympic Committee ask they found it was a transgression and banned kuwait from the olympics in 2015 and the ban still exists. Okay. So theres the example. What is the ioc think of what russia did . Lets judge the word by the action. At the time that these revelations first came out in the New York Times, and then were confirmed by professor mcclaren, ioc president called russias actions, and i quote, shocking and unprecedented attack on the integrity of the Olympic Games and sports, and what is more, he promised action. He promised he would, quote, not hesitate to take the toughest sanctions available against any individual or organization implicated in the criminality. So surely you think unprecedented attack would result in an unprecedented set of disciplinary measures. Obviously only a complete ban would have the dual purpose of punishing russias systemic doping system and deterring other cheaters. And when he announced on december 5th that there would be a ban, there was much international acclaim, and i confess i was part of the choir. I believed the words. And so did everyone else. Until they read the fine print. The ban wasnt a ban at all. It was hardly a slap on the wrist. In retrospect looks like a pr stunt, sham, one that has earmarks of extensive negotiations with russia. In the current Olympic Games, russian has field one of the largest teams despite the quoteunquote ban. And theyre not just competing at neutrals the way other suspended that means no national insignature knea. Youre competing under the olympic flag as olympic athletes, but russia got a special despen situation, their dispensation. The athletes we wear russian eue forms and by tuesday, thomas bach is going to lift the ban and the russians are going march at the closing ceremonies under the own national flag, despite this horrific behavior. The olympic selfpolicings system has had other catastrophes as well. Most of the 43 lifetime bans i spoke about before impose by the ioc have been overturned by the highest court in sport, the court of arbitration in support, allows most athletes to compete again but most egregiously, russia has been permit, remarkably, to stonewall the ioc and wada, despite almost on a daily basis, protesting their innocence and decrying the doping scandal as a byproduct of some western conspiracy in which, i assume i must be a conspirator. Russia refuses to turn over Critical Evidence that was ordered by wada more than a year ago. Why . If theyre innocent and theres no doping system, then why not turn over the evidence . And let me just unpack that a little bit for you when we talk about the evidence. There are a lot of things that can be manipulated in a doping laboratory. One thing that cant be. The test equipment itself. And they have refused. And if that is not admission of guilt i really dont know what is. Lets ask another question honestly has russia accepted any responsibility for this. The bands were in fact upheld by this arbitration. This comment a leading member of the state duma which is a lower house of their legislature typifies the reaction. We wont apologize and we wont apologize to those who prepare this report so sweetly we have nothing to apologize for and neither do our athletes. And what is more is putting aside the lack of any acceptance of responsibility russia has sought to retaliate against the dr. Rich hank off again and again. Only by the way after his cooperation was revealed russia, indicted him twice for politically motivated crimes. In order for this sort of system to exist obviously many people have to be involved. It couldnt have possibly been one man. No lone wolf could do all the things that were necessary in order for a system less sophisticated to succeed. There had to be athletes participating. They not surprisingly singled him out for these. Russian officials have harassed the family. And confiscated his property and even declared and i will quote here that he should be shot as stalin would have done. And to discredit him even russian president Vladimir Putin has gotten in the game. On the one hand accusing the fbi of drugging the false confession. Now i was an organized crime prosecutor for many years. I was very used to seeing people who cooperate be discredited by people who wear their conspirators so lets be clear about this. The u. S. Did not pick him. They made him the director of the moscow lab when opponents of them started an investigation back in 2011 allegedly for distributing performance drugs it was the kremlin that quashed those charges so that gregory could continue the work that they had authorized. So russia picked this witness nobody from the west did. And the cap things off to make it extra sweet just this week you will not believe this unless youve seen in the newspaper was sued in New York State Supreme Court for defamation three of the from three of the russian athletes who have the most evidence against them in the mclaren report. The lawsuit no doubt backed by the kremlin. On a personal note i have made really a i have read media reports that they are helping to finance this frivolous lawsuit and i hope that those reports are inaccurate. Because if an nba Franchise Owner is using mba revenue to finance a lawsuit to attack and silence a whistleblower who is trying to bring integrity back to sports i think every american and every basketball fan would be galled by that. And i certainly hope that the nba is monitoring this closely because this sends a terrible message a terrible message to the players, the fans in the kids that watch that team. So the whole litany of retaliation spinning the last year and a half which i have only just summarized believe me if you want to ask me questions i will give you 15 more examples. What has ioc done because ioc has power rate the power is right now the russian Olympic Committee is suspended in ioc retained for itself in this day and the ability to continue thats abstention if russia did not behave. So all of the things that ioc has to do is pick up the phone and call the telemundo and say this is going to continue. In these Olympic Games and in future Olympic Games unless you leave our main witness alone. After all, he has testified and given affidavits in submitted evidence i think that is the least that they can do. Can make a phone call. In what have they done. Nothing. They have sat by and watched this behavior and done not a single thing to stop the russians. Let me ask you. Do you think that emboldens the russians when the act in this way and nobody stops them . You tell me. Assuming that they are true russia responded by retaliating against the ioc. According to press reports they have to listen to those in their computers. In some russian government officials had promised to impose sanctions on members and executives in retaliation with the band. Does that sound like behavior that deserves its place among other nations in the midst of all of us just funny twists and turns of this case. No one would have guessed what happened next. Because another whistleblower in the midst of this whole thing someone within russia leaked a confidential database dating back before the sochi games that the moscow lab had been using to record all of the adverse into lyrical findings before they made them disappear. This is exactly the evidence that russia would not produce and the whistleblower disclosed it. They spent much time and ultimately authenticated it as a true and exact copy of what is called the linz data base. Within the moscow laboratory. And i had been assured that it is analyzing that thousands and thousands at adverse findings stored in that secret database and it Wont Disclose the identities of those athletes did International Federations and if the International Federations do not bring cases against every single one of them they said they would do it and i believe them. So they had acted. But after the disclosure of the database what did ioc do. What did they say. It has been a crickets. Crickets. Simply crickets. Nothing. The ioc didnt even disclose the database to the court for sports arbitration despite the fact that as i had been told there are ten or 12 athletes whose appeals were being heard who had adverse findings that have already been identified in the database. It wouldve been critical information but the ioc did nothing. Despite the overwhelming proof of a state sponsored doping system and epic destruction retaliation. They said they still plan to lift the band of the russian team on so it is Little Wonder at this point the information about infighting with the ioc. With the executive committee has started to leak. And there has been really critically important and unfortunate casualty to the infighting. Because there is a british ioc member named adam penn gilly in together with him. Another legit neri member had been the two lone voices willing to stand up to his complicity. And for reasons that we will all figure out whether it is true or not. Has been injected from the Olympic Games in south korea on the eve of the ioc making a decision. One of the dissenting voices. Has now been silenced. No one can seriously argue that the cowardly and indecisive actions of the ioc are appropriate will deter cheaters and are fair to clearing to clean athletes. And nobody can seriously debate that it is broken. It is not working. And as a result of that. Who has defrauded them. Everybody knows what fraud is. Clean athletes. Who invested substantial physical emotional and Financial Investments in their training. Sponsored most of him by the way had anti doping provisions including the russian athletes. Advertisers. International federations. And every single country including the United States contributes to the fairly large budget. I want to put a pin in something. I think ups acceptance ups acceptance of responsibility is extraordinarily important and is the measure of character of a person or country and the sad truth of it is america is not blameless either. Weve have our share of cheaters. We had one symptomatic system relatively recently. I am proud of the fast the fact that we stand up and convict those individuals in make sure that they are exposed no matter how important they are no matter how powerful they are. And no matter how much money can be made off of their performances. But we should it take victory laps and we should it say that. At the same time the United States has been a leader in a fight for clean sport. And the u. S. Anti doping administration and its president had been liens on this issue. And if congress does anything as a result of this saga i hope that they will increase the budget the United States can do more to fight for clean athletes. There are countries such as austria, italy france and spain that had implemented criminal penalties it is a very simple concept. We learned when we are children. If our actions are punished than the conduct will stop. That is the basis of our criminal justice system. We dont have laws to punish doping as a criminal violation we have many different conspiracies that cover many different kinds of fraud but not fraud that embodies doping. And this is true despite the huge impact that they head on both u. S. Athletes in u. S. Sponsors who are the main source of revenue for the olympics and many other world events. We need to change our language. And stop calling this doping and start calling it what it is. This is doping fraud. Someone pretends that they are clean when they are dirty it is not implicit. They sent certifications. Contracts sane and confirming and certifying that they are clean and they are dirty. And other people get harmed. Thats exactly what fraud is in doping fraud should be the watchword in all of our discussions going forward. But we could do more. I would be happy to work with this commission and propose the first fraud statute but it cant be an ordinary statue. Has to be a statute like the foreign corrupt practices act. It allows u. S. Prosecutors to reach even a Foreign Government officials who are involved in bribery that has an impact there. Doping is no different. Congress should pass a fraud statute with a long armed provision that allows us to reach out of the United States and catch the cheaters that destroyed the lives of americas clean athletes and waste the resources of our businesses. In one of my friends when i was talking through this idea have a very clever idea. The idea was to just amend the controlled substances act. It was something that was passed in 1970. Its the major drug law in the United States. It actually has on a schedule most of the worst performing drugs. We could simply just amend the controlled substances act that have a long arm statute that says when theres a consists conspiracy that affects corporations and that exists outside of the United States because of the harm here we are going to prosecute here. That is my recommendation for the day because let me tell you something if we have a long arm statute for doping i guarantee you as long as we used it this problem would go away. Understand the guy risks everything to come here and what does he have the show for it. Not much of a life at all. It has proved utterly useless to stop the russians from trying to indict him extradite him harass him discredit him threaten him and if the ioc cant police itself encourages other whistleblowers to come forward and not just from russia but from wherever there are state sponsored doping systems. So part of this fraud statute should have whistleblower protections that provide for Legal Assistance immigration status job placement and other kinds of support provides tools for prosecutors to go after the people that are retaliating against the witnesses. Let me tell you something. If you are in the United States and you try to retaliate against a witness. That is a federal crime. It should be no less of a crime because someone who is physically here is being retaliated against by someone outside of the United States. The harm is here. Thank you for patiently sitting through my remarks. I would like to read and note that he wrote and asked me to here is the statement excuse me for reading. Thank you for accepting my statement i hope at some point soon my security situation will improve so that i may address this commission personally. To provide full interest full details with the state sponsored doping system in which i played an Important Role. I sincerely apologize for my actions. Many other highlevel officials including from the center for sports preparation and the fsp played roles in the scheme along with many lowerlevel people. I truly had no choice but to play my part in the scheme but i hope you understand i did much work to advance the goal of clean sport during my time. Despite my extensive cooperation i am in a very difficult position russia has openly retaliated against me about that they can be no serious question they have singled me out for prosecution issued arrest warrants are seeking my return to russia and even calling for my execution. Two of my colleagues died under mysterious circumstances after the scandal unfolded in 2005 and i fully believe they were murdered to silence them. Have i not fled russia i was sure i would experience that same fate that ioc has the power to stop russias retaliation against me. They could simply use the power they retained to continue the suspension of the russian Olympic Committee from participation in ongoing olympics into future games until russia stops his efforts. The ioc has risks fused to refused to use that power in fact it seems ready to lift the suspension before the closing ceremony in these Olympic Games. Putting aside the direct impact on me this sends a terrible message to future whistleblowers. Why should anyone come forward if the very guardians of clean sport leap their main witness his truth they have repeatedly verified twisting in the wind. If the ioc has proven completely ineffective i ask this commission to consider the Important Role that the United States could play in both encouraging more whistleblowers to come forward in creating meaningful deterrence for step dash make such epic cheating. It does not work and it wrecked lacks the resources and tools to solve these problems. I have believed the United States has played a leadership role. In the protection of whistleblowers. Thank you very much for your time. And i will stay for any questions. [applause]. Thank you very much for your powerful remarks and im really looking forward to working on that legislation with you. We will have a little conversation and then we will open the floor to the audience. When i calling you to ask a question. Please make sure that you speak into the mic since we are being broadcast. Why is that. Do they need structural reform. [inaudible conversations] im sure im not been hundred fair. To balance when you need people to hold these competitions you need big countries. We need the revenue thats necessary. The actions of the ioc look corrupt, implicit or best in it. In the sense that im sure it will be difficult to balance. To do all of the things that are necessary. We have to have one standard of injustice. In another standard of injustice for america. If they are going to punish countries that impact the independence of the Olympic Committees and the labs they have to punish those countries equally. And thats why again the only rational explanation for these decisions is corruption complicity or ineptitude and im not sure which one it is. My second question concerns the other massive International Sports association in the world and that is before. Despite the fact that the russian team has been banned from the Pyeongchang Olympics we are looking at a world cup in sochi next year. So is it a coordination issue. Do these organizations not speak to one another or is this another case i think the problems that they had been having with corruptions are now wellknown. There has been a trial in brooklyn where its been proved that their other investigations going on. With respect to what he knows about russian soccer i have said publicly that he can confirm that the Russian Football Team wasnt protected by the states doping system. There is a pending investigation going on. Im not sure if it is a credible investigation. He is certainly going to cooperate with respect to that. I dont really know but what i can say is that corruption is not a long game strategy. Particularly not in the stage where all over the spectrum of issues that are being face in the world people are being empowered to step forward and tell their secrets. We see in the me to movement. And some other areas and we will see in doping. The number of investigations. If they want to be viable. They should stop corruption. Because with all of these issues going around. To have the world cup. Since a terrible message to the world. Me ask a final question. In your conversations had you spoken to him at all about the incentive. It seems to me in the short term we can all see that. If you get caught. I cant tell you about the private conversations we have obviously. I can take what he says publicly. Because of the power of sport in russia. And he believes and i know he believes that because i have seen the agony on his space as he describes it. The success that brought him from an epic low Approval Rating to incredibly high Approval Rating emboldened russia to invade the ukraine. Is he right or wrong i dont know. But what i do know is that its not a longterm gain. I just hope that one of the powerful events of the story. Whether it is occurring in any other western country. The day of reckoning is coming. We will take questions from the audience now. Please wait until you receive the mic. My name is david larkin. And probably the only one in washington dc. I actually got dragged into the anticorruption world about eight years ago by accident. Could you please speak up. My first comment would be directed to paul. Paul, the United States needs to understand something that they dont understand at the moment. That is the sport is not about sport. What is great about this case is that it is a great demonstration. Its about geopolitics. When you are dealing with spore at the international level. It gets hijacked over and over by Foreign Governments because dates back to 1936. You see this incursion into sport. Countries across the world had sports ministers in the United States almost single he does not why, because the United States does not understand that sport is geopolitics. Said the united so the United States Congress Gets taken for a ride on this over and over in in fact i chaired a panel here at the capital in found persons financed by Foreign Government. We dont understand this issue at all. I appreciate what youre doing. Two questions really. One is to what degree were russian athletes aware of this systemic program. Only a portion of the russian athletes were doping at the games at various times. That is really my first question. My second question is as he talks about how he should be afraid the other thing does that is a really my two questions. Why would he need to be afraid one last point. Paul, we need to understand in the United States that this system of International Sport is systemically corrupt. We would never allow the court of arbitration to exist and consult a court the way it currently does the United States. So we in the United States need to not only address the issue in this instance we have a system of International Sports that victimizes american athletes and that has to be addressed. It is a great and important case but there is a much bigger issue and thats the victimization of american athletes. And i hope you will address that. If i may. Thank you so much for your comments one think about your comments that strikes me is that we really are an outlier in in that way i hope we can remain an outlier. I think that our take on sportsmanship as being between two sportsmen is precisely what sports should be about. I think that the United States has been able to support the rule of law in really interesting ways around the world. And one of those ways as they hinted out was through which our company. That has stopped bribery. Potentially it certainly put a dent in it. In any case if we were able to put some legislation on the table or some sort of incentive for these guys to play similarly by rules in which we acknowledge that sports is about sports and not about geopolitics than that would be very positive that said. I really hope it doesnt go in the reverse and the United States ends up thinking is about geopolitics. Its about keeping sports here in about sports. In the be just my comment on there. Dave, thanks for your questions and believe me when i say i appreciate you really ask two questions. The first question was where the athletes aware and i cant answer that question. What i can tell you is people dont switch things in their mouth and spit it out for no reason. Even if they had been told. And when you are asked to get clean urine its hard to believe that you think its normal to give clean urine in a discarded baby bottle. They were collecting multiple samples of clean athletes and then give them over to the center of sports preparation. I think the larger question is the world and frankly they took this case and an american prosecutor would not. They carved up the evidence and looked really at the forest with a microscope instead of realizing that when you look at all of the evidence including that evidence. And the decades worth of evidence that exists in other places is not just him. There is no question that this occurred. This is not a serious topic. And there is no one and that follows the olympics or world competitions that believes the line coming out of the kremlin. The participating russian athletes near. You ask a second question there. I dont remember the line from the movie. Could you give him a mike. Theyre going straight to the multiple boxes. He makes reference to the fact that he is afraid of him. And some of the information he knows. Its part of the problem. That is historically in this contract. Also part of the problem. It victimizes american athletes. I can answer the question. Im guessing a little bit. I just want to correct but tweak one thing that you are saying. This is a system and the system is evolving. And honestly out of all of the nonsense that weve had to deal with with the ioc. At least they are doing something now i believe when they left me and i and say we are going after these cases. And i look forward to it. Because when the data is revealed no one is going to be able to dispute the truth. It would literally be impossible. Given the Staggering Number of athletes. But what i think that they are probably referring to. You remember when there was a time. When the lab was almost banned just before sochi. All of the samples would have to be sent to other labs. He was given a pass there. All of these agencies are much more forgiving than they should be. And much less skeptical the human error and incompetence and lack of independence many different pressures put on these institutions. I think that was probably what he was referring to. Other questions please. If there are no other questions from the audience. Give anything from facebook. I guess you are very comprehensive. In that case thank you so very much everyone. Let me make mention of a hearing and that we will be having on february 28. On the legacy of boren net sauce. Ink you so much. Thank you. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] tonight book tv is in prime time with a look at military biographies. They are the focus of his book. Our year of war. They talked on his book. Eight seconds of courage. They are every able to recall the bombing missions. Over the last fighter pilot. And he has interviewed on his book the road not taken. 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