Transcripts For CSPAN2 Attacks On U.S. Diplomats In Cuba 20180110

Subcommittee hearing. This hearing of the subcommittee on the western hemisphere transnational crime security democracy human rights and global womens issues will come to order. The title of this hearing is attacks on us diplomats in cuba response and oversight, one Government Panel testifying today, following through witnesses who are here and grateful for you joining us today on behalf of the advocate of branch, mister Francisco Paul mary, assistant secretary of state for the bureau of western hemisphere affairs, todd brown, diplomat security assistant director of International Programs at the department of state and doctor Charles Rosen farb, director of the bureau of medical services. The deferment of state, thank you for being here for this important topic. The first is to establish the facts. And the conduct and activities of United States state department. Here are the facts testified to by the panel. In late 2016 staff of the United States embassy in havana complaining of strange noises and among the descriptions they complained of, highpitched sound incapacitating sound, akin to driving windows partially open or intense pressure in one ear. And in washington dc viewed this activity as harassment from forces hostile to the United States or us presence in cuba. Later, the information gathered from additional individuals that suggested the events that led to these complaints in november of 2016. The initial events occurred in diplomatic residents. Later these occurred at hotels. And an evaluation conducted in 80 members of the embassy community. 16 of these were identified with symptoms and medically verifiable findings with combinations similar to patients that had mild traumatic brain injury, in early july in the state department, panel of epidemic efforts for case histories, and arrived at a consensus and the consensus is, quote, patterns of injuries were most likely related to trauma from a nonnatural source. Later in august 2017 the Brain Injury Center at the university of pennsylvania reevaluated amnesty employees reporting symptoms, additional individuals and incidents prior to april 2014 added to the list of confirmed cases and additional individuals reported exposure from midaugust in the last year. And bringing the total number of cases to 24. The symptoms may vary, all of the medically confirmed cases have described some combination of the following symptoms, sharp ear pain, dull headaches, ringing in one year, visual focusing issues, disorientation, disorientation, nausea and extreme fatigue. As we said earlier the timeline of the reported incidents, the initial wave reported in december began in november 2016 and occurred through late march 2017, through march 2017 through april 2017 a sporadic period of reported incidents, then they stopped and two additional reports happen in close proximity in august of last year they were medically confirmed in september. These are the facts that will be testified today by the panel and with that i turned to the Ranking Member. Thank you, appreciate the we are starting the new year with a much needed hearing with brazen attacks on diplomats in cuba and ask my full statement be included in the record. It is unfortunate since the news of these vicious attacks broke late last summer we have not seen more public outcry against the cuban government for whatever scope of ownership it has over these attacks were more accountability for the health and wellbeing of our diplomats some of whom continue to suffer lingering Health Conditions from these attacks was the castro regime has proved it is not a responsible actor in the community of nations, the regime cannot be counted upon to uphold its International Commitments or responsibilities and most certainly the regime has no regard for individual human rights, security or dignity. The cuban government may or may not be directly responsible for attacking our diplomats but as someone who has personally witnessed the modus operandi of the cuban government it is unfathomable the castro regime and Intelligence Services specifically were not aware of these attacks. Of senior cuban officials did not directly order these attacks they must have been aware or given tacit approval of foreign agents to operate in cuba but the scope of the attacks is specific was i hope to hear more sound explanations from our witnesses today. And the simple and changeable truth, that being in a foreign location in terms of your duty runs risks. Duty runs risks and in this particular case no amount of playicating, pandering or diplomatic overtures is going to change that. The cuban government has tried to undermine their dangerous and irresponsible behavior by undermining the validit its ability to intimidate, oppress and harm its own citizens, give credence to our concerns about the wellbeing of americans. They accuse the United States of fabricating the attacks because wouldd not release the names of diagnosis of the affected people. Of course the castro regime does i fundamentally understand that in a democratic and free countrp some cities have a right to government that would prioritize their Privacy Health over using them as political tools. And finally turning to our witnesses, you cannot be held accountable for the behavior of the cuban government or those who were responsible for this but you are responsible both for the appropriate diplomatic response andhi the health and safety of our diplomats. And from what i can see the actions of the department has taken on both counts are simply insufficient and unacceptable. Despite much vaunted rhetoric from the president about rolling back illconceived policy changes, the rally is that the cuban government continues to enjoy many of the benefits it receives per by the Administration May champion its new regulations prohibiting transactions that could benefit the cuban Government Military intelligence complex, it grandfathered in all contracts that begin during the last administration. Furthermore, because of the administration took so long to actually announce these guidelines, Major Companies were able to finalize deals in the months between theo announcement of these policies and their implementation. At the enforcement level the woffice of foreign assets contl remains understaffed with no indication that president will be hired. At the state department the president has not even nominated and assistant secretary for the western hemisphere affairs. Failing to put critical senior staff of placed at the appropriate agencies severely undermined the United States ability to project protect our interests and citizens abroad. The administration of the departments reaction to the cuban government completely abrogating its obligations under the Vienna Convention to protect our diplomats is laughable. The fact that some of the cuban government has managed to paint and narrative that there were no attacks at all is pretty outrageous. Expelling aai handful of diploms to achieve parity wither the number diplomats who had to be removed from havana for safety is hardly a bold diplomatic move. When you treasure guidelines were finally announced the administration stressed they were not in response to the attack on personnel. And then turning to the impacted Foreign Service officers themselves. I appreciate the overview this been provided but the truth is from the accounts we have heard, the departments response was simply bureaucratic, inadequate, and troubling. I will have a number of questions later ability start by saying the stories we heard are shocking. The failure of leadership at the department in that post, the sluggish reaction to the initial reports of afflictedoc personne, the aloof response of the medical team at the state department, silence of Diplomatic Security to the rest of the department is simply staggering. The members of u. S. Foreign service made a a commitment to serving the country overseas. He agreed to spend their lives often taking the families with them in pursuit of promoting American Interest in helping americans abroad. Some serve in combat t zones, large embassies in small, and sometimes on communist island. According to accounts from those who suffer directly, s when diplomats first reported citizens to the appropriate peoplele oppose they were rebufd symptoms it is understandable and finally accepting that employees were suffering life altering health consequences, the department o took months to arrange for the appropriate care if it was almost a year before the department for the embassy on ordered departure status, and only after reports surfaced in the media. Alarmingly, its artist in the department did not even when diplomats going to cuba for permanent or temporary assignments aboutn the risks to their health and the health of their families. As the college with iq would from cuba, Department Leadership failed to inform the rest of the department including those being sent to serve in the place of those being evacuated. Those who have been suffering physically have also remaining questions about whether they will receive appropriate care for the rest of their careers and their lives. This lack of leadership and responsibility shocking and unacceptable. I sincerely hope this battle can provide as much needed answers to a myriad of pressing questions. The cuban government must be held accountable for its failure to uphold International Commitments and failed too protect american diplomats. The Department Must be held accountable for executing the appropriate policies and response, and for ensuring the safety, security and help of the men and women of the Foreign Service. With that i look forward to the hearing. Thank you. Well begin with our witnesses. Mr. Palmieri, welcome to the committee. Chairman rubio, Ranking Member menendez, distinguished members of thetn committee, thak you for the opportunity to speak about the attacks against his diplomats in cuba and the department of states efforts in response. The department of states efforts in response. I want to thank you for your concern for the safety and security of our diplomatic personnel in havana. As you know this is secretary tillersons top priority. It is mine as well. Im pleased to be here today with my colleagues from the bureau of Diplomatic Security and medical services with whom the bureau of western hem hads fear affairs has worked closely on this issue. I would also like to emphasize up front that the investigation is ongoing. We have the best experts in the government working to help us understand it. And every step in our response to these events we have worked closely with our medical and technical experts in evaluating Health Conditions and the nature of the attack. Ill walk you through a timeline which will describe our diplomaticing engagement then i will defer to my colleagues to address the security and medical issues. In late 2016, some servicing complained about hearing strange noises and a variety of unexplained physical symptoms. As the department investigated, we began to see signs suggesting that these events initially and diplomatic residents and later at hotels may have begun as early as november 2016. As soon as we identified a pattern, connecting these unusual events with Certain Health symptoms u. S. Officials approached the cuban government in midfebruary to demand it meets its obligations under the Vienna Convention to protect our personnel. The cubans denied involvement, offered their cooperation and opened their own investigation. Since then we have engaged the cubans more than 20 times from the working level to the highest level of the cuban government both here in washington and in havana. In addition to our diplomatic efforts, dr. Rosen farb will provide you with additional details. Separately we launched a governmentwide effort to find the cause and culprits behind these attacks. Apart from the investigation we have met with u. S. Interagency partners more than a dozen times to discuss and refine our response to the attacks. The attacks initially appear to curb in clusters. But starting in late march, spurattic attack continued until late april and then seemed to stop. Beginning in midapril we allowed anyone serving at Embassy Havana who did not feel safe at post to return to the United States. We also expelled two cuban diplomats in may in order to underscore the cuban governments responsibility to protect our personnel. After a period without any attacks there were two additional attacks reported in close proximity in late august which were medically confirmed in september. Secretary tillerson ordered the departure of nonemergency personnel on 29th. They assessed this was it only way to reduce the risk to the diplomats and their families. We expelled 15 more cuban diplomats in october to insure equity and the impact on our respected operations and to underscore to cuba its obligation to stop the attacks. These decisions both to jar down our personnel at Embassy Havana and to expel cuban diplomats did not signal a change from president trumps policy. Prior to the decision to implement order departure, our embassy held 17 town Hall Meetings with embassy staff. Since the return of u. S. Diplomats to washington, we have held a number of meetings with them. Secretary tillerson explained his decision to institute order departure and we have organized a number of meetings to address eeevacuees concerns. The well being of the 24 confirmed victims as well as the well being of all of our evacuees and those remaining in havana continues to be our priority as does the ongoing investigation. With that i will turn it to my colleagues to discuss their areas of expertise and then i will be happy to answer your questions. Thank you. Mr. Brown. Good morning. Chairman rubio and other distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for your invitation to discuss health had attacks involving u. S. Personnel in their families. I share your concerns regarding the safety and security of our personnel in cuba and welcome any discussion that may lead to a better ntdsing of this issue and stronger safeguards for our employees. From a security and investigative standpoint we continue to work at Embassy Havana to counter, mitigate and better understand who or what are causing injuries to our dip wlumatic staff. Unfortunately this remains a perplexing case. Our regional officer first became aware of attacks involving personnel in late december 2016. In the early stages of trying to understand what may be occurring, post leadership and supporting offices in washington believed it was likely a form of harassment by forces hostile to the United States and our presence in cuba. As more incidents were reported in early 2017 and greater awareness of the seriousness of symptoms became known our level of concern and mitigation efforts rose exponentially. After meetings with cuban officials in february outlining cubas responsibility to protect diplomats under the geneva convention, we received information that the cuban government was conducting its own investigation into the matter. Senior officials met frequently as part of our ongoing attempt to better understand the nature of the apparent attack and protect staff. Amung other things the embassy deployed devices in an effort to better identify or capture the possible source behind the threat. As many victims had had associated the attack with an acoustic event. After further investigative attempts an expert analysis failed to identify the perpetrator, the federal bureau of investigation opened a case in early may. An fbi case has since visited and the fbis investigation has conducted surveys of the residents and hotel rooms. However the investigation remains ongoing and we would refer all specific questions concerning the investigation to the fbi. Thank you. Ill be glad to answer any questions you may have. Thank you. Good morning. Chairman rubio, Ranking Member menendez. Thank you for the opportunity to testify on a departments response to the recent health had attacks in havana. Ill be describing what we currently know about the Health Effects. From the individual and Public Health perspective, managing this is challenging. They describe a multitude of symptoms, many of which are not easily attributable to any specific cause. The sharing of information has helped identify more personnel but as with any Community Outbreak can complicate a situation. However, the most challenging factor is the lack of certainty and therefore the precise mechanism of the injuries suffered. Individuals first visited our medical unit starting in late december 2016 and january 2017 reporting various symptoms including air pain, diziness and hearing problems. They associated the onset to their exposure with oddatory sensations. An incapacitating sound, or just an intense pressure in one ear. Since the symptoms first reported primarily effected oodatory functions was aidentified to perform additional assessments. Between february and april of last year, this specialist evaluated 80 members of the embassy community. 16 were identified to have symptoms and pedically verifiable clinical findings similar to what might be seen following a mel traumatic brain injury or concussion. In july reviewed the case histories and test results gathered to date. They identified some of the symptoms could be caused by other things such as previous head trauma, aging and stress. The consensus was the patterns of injuries were most likely lated to a trauma of an unlikely source. The nationally recognized Brain Injury Center at the university of pennsylvania was identified those with prior exposures and new exposures. As a result of further evaluations, additionally individuals with exposures prior to april 24th were added to the list of confirmed case said two other individuals that reported exposures in midaugust were also medically confirmed, bringing the total number to 24. I now like the describe the Health Effects identified so far. All medically confirmed cases have described some combination of the following symptoms with ginning within minutes to hours of the event. Dull unilateral headache, ringing in one ear, vertigo, visual focusing issues, disorientation, nausea and extreme fatigue. They seem to resolve in days and weeks but other Health Issues emerge. These have included difficulty with concentration, working memory and attention. High frequency unilateral hearing loss and imbalanced walking. The duration and severity have varied widely. Defining the prognosis is extremely difficult since no precise an log exists. Some patients remain symptomatic months after their exposure. They have improved to varying degrees in some individuals. However, some over time without treatment. 10 of the 24 have returned to participation of duty. However, at this time we are unable to state whether or not it could result in functional abilities. All government personnel now receive a detailed medical briefing including base line audio grams and testing. The centers for Disease Control performing a broader and to the american public. Discussions have also been held with the national instut of Neurological Disorders and stroke regarding its participation in ongoing medical investigations. I look forward to your questions. Thank you. Doctor, ill start with you. Is it fair to say may 1st or early may we were aware that at least 16 u. S. Government employees and or dependents had had suffered a serious if hadjury while working in havana for the u. S. Government . Its fair to say we were aware they had suffered some type of injury. Was it serious . In some individuals it was more serious than others. Was there at least one u. S. Government employee suffered serious injury . Many cases. In any case of serious ifjury, they should convene an accountability review board. That has to happen within 60 days of an occurrence of the incident and allows for a 60day delay if they determine more time is necessary for convening by the board. By early may we knew at least one or several as the doctor has testified, resulted in serious ifjury. And certainly by Early September an accountability review board should have been set up. I got a letter november 6th saying there was still not an accountability review board. And it secretary decided to delay 60 days to determine whether one was necessary. Allow additional time to better if form the decision whether to convene an arb. Has an accountability review board been set up to this date and why wasnt it set up, as according to law, in the 120 day period in. The secretary has made a decision to convene an accou accountability review board. There will be a congressional notification sent shortly. Why wasnt it done within 120 days since may 1st when we knew there was serious injury . Throughout this process there were things we knew or at times was later contradicted. Throughout this process we have not been able to identify who the perpetrator of such attack was and what the means of that attack was. It was only until late august when there was another round of attacks that it became apparent to us that we should begin the process of looking at an accountability review board sfwlp thats not what the law reads. In any case of serious ifjury, loss of life related to a United States Government Mission abroad. It doesnt say you need to know who did it. In fact, thats one of the reasons for the review board. The fact is the state department did not follow the law in my opinion and i believe in the opinion of others given the fact that by early may we knew serious injury had had occurred weilated to their service in Government Mission abroad. And mr. Brown, you testified the conclusion was this was forces hostile to the yunls and or to our presence in cuba. Is that correct . Thats correct. Initially we felt it was a form of harassment and that was attributed to the government. Do you know when secretary kerry was made aware . This was it state department conclusion that there was harassment, correct . Yes, sir. That was the early opinion of the Security Professionals who looked at it that it was likely a form of harassment. When was secretary kerry made aware . Do you know . I do not know. Do you know if president obama was ever made aware . I know as a regular matter we would have aprized the National Security counsel at some point after the late december information became apparent. What about secretary tillerson . When was he first made aware . I believe that would have been late february, sir. Do you know if the Trump Transition Team was made awear during the transition period . I did not have a contact with them on this issue. Im not aware if anyone else did. When president obama changed policy towards cuba. We set up the embassy. We had to expand personnel, did we not . We added personnel to expand the mission . I would have to go back and check the record. We had to secure housing for the Additional Mission in havana . That would be normal practice. And we would have to prostlied cuban government the list of all it u. S. Employees that would be work sng. We would have enlisted additional visas, yes. And all of these residents would have been owned by the cuban government . Thats my understanding too, sir. The hotels where these attacks happened were owned by the cuban government. Thats correct. What measures did we take on the expansion of these residents . Senator, to talk about residential security, i think historically from a crime p perspective there were not features related to that. Our concern and i believe the cuban government selected was aware of which houdsising our personnel would go into. Our housing profile is fairly compact. There are not specific security measures in a counterintelligence type if environment. So there wouldnt have been any other physical security in relation to the residents in place and particularly in cuba, we did not have, beyond the harassment element, we did not have a high Crime Statistics or anything related to political violence. So there wouldnt have been any residential measures taken above and beyond what was already in place. Based on what we know and more importantly what we dont know can you today guarantee the safety of any personnel in havana currently stationed or about to be deployed to havana . Do we know what they can do to protect themselves from these injurei injuries . Can we guarantee today theyre safe from the injuries. Certainly weve not knowing whats causing it or whos behind it or how its being done gives us very little in the terms of mitigation and being sure that our community in ha vannau and how to respond to that to have teams in place and how to report those types of incidents. So we have done a lot of work in terms of elevating the knowledge i guess to cut the chase, mr. Brown. If i were being deployed to work in the embassy in havana and asked what could i do to protect yourself, you do not know what i can do to protect myself . Thats true, senator. Our guidance would be in the event of something similar that what has taken place to react in a certain manner. Thats a reactive measure. Do you have any advice to people being deployed to huh rannau how they can protect themselves . We try to educate them and make sure theyre aware of the risk and what we know about the symptoms that have occurred. As far as we know right now the only mitigation factor is to limit exposure. We inform them should they hear or feel a sensation to move away as quickly as possible. We know from our patients the less exposure the belter. We also do predeployment screening to ascertain baseline hearing, cognitive function. So should they report any, were able to refer to the previous status. Unfortunately im going to have to go to the white house so im going to have a series of questions for the record. I was looking forward to a second round. I hope those questions will be answered. First, listening to the last set of answers like the times in which we used to have children put their heads underneath their desk for a nuclear attack, ridiculous. Move away from sound that youre hearing. Its Pretty Amazing to me. Let me ask the democratic offices of this committee have requested a classified briefing. To date that briefing as not taken place. Do you submit to a classified briefing . Absolutely. And given the fact that so much is tied to classified information, do you submit to responding to classified questions for it record . Yes, sir. Would it not be fair to say that in cuba either it is the regime who conducted these attacks or they have full knowledge of who conducted these attacks because the state Security Apparatus in cuba is one that has every element of Cuban Society and life fully monitored and if gauged. Very difficult to believe that if a third country ultimately if gauged in these attacks that the cuban if thetelligence would not know. Yells, sir. All right. So either it is the cubans or it is someone else. Under the possibility that it is someone else and i think it administration has recognized one possible explanation for these attacks on u. S. Personnel is a third country, possibly in collaboration with the cuban government or at least with its knowledge. Or if it wasnt with its knowledge, they know who it is and they have not come forth as i understand it . Have the cuban government suggested who this might be if not them . Not that im aware of. In the theory for a moment that it is a third country in december of 2016 around it same time these attacks first happened, they sign a new defense cooperation agreement, including a series of new technologies and id like to release thiz for the record. Has the state department raised the attacks against u. S. Personnel in cuba with the russia government for example . Sir, i think thats a very good question. I think it would be better to address that question in a classified setting. So if i were to go to a list of countries, your goring to give me the same answer . In general, yes, sir. So i look forward to that classified moment. Let me ask you this. You have said that you will not return individuals if in fact individuals to the post if unless the cubans can guarantee that these attacks will not continue. Doesnt that indicate the government has at least some knowledge over these attacks . The president and the secretary have stated government when was the first time a diplomat reported symptoms of the attack . The first symptoms patients were seen in Embassy Havana in midjanuary. Midjanuary of . 2017. Of 2017. Do we know when the sar jay was first informed of these attacks . I believe it shar jay alerted the attacks at the very end of december of 2016. So we say some of these attacks took place in may of 2016, right . There was a cluster of attacks that occurred between march and midapril. I do not believe there was an attack in may. Ideavd have to go backing to t timeline. So if its march or may of excuse me, senator. I meant 2017. Okay. So let me ask you this. What was the sarjay informed the effects could be permanent . He was informed of the attacks in late december, sir, of 2016. At that point i do not believe we knew we had information about the severity or the depth of the attacks. When diplomats reported symptoms to the medical team, why did it take so long to respond . Senator, i believe to try to clarify how this timeline from investigative standpoint took place, it was december 30th and 2016 when it was first brought to the attention of the Regional Security officer and the front office of the embassy. At that time it was not clear what was taking place, nor were there related severe medical symptoms. They just simply didnt know and at that point they thought it might be some form of harassment and the Regional Security officer did note it in a report along with other reports. So thats when they first had had this notice of what was happening. And then there was this long gap that nothing new happened. So this case is sort of amplified by how perplexing and knowledge gaps. But they did seize on this early indicator that something odd had had happened and then i believe it was late this was considered a form of harassment early on and then it wasnt until early february when new incidents were reported that it was sort of this moment of weve got something bigger happening here. Why were diplomats effected told not to share their symptoms or concerns with family members . Im not awear that was ever done. Would you review it because if you talk to these individuals they were told not to share their symptoms or concerns with family members. When did you first learn that employees were suffering symptoms associated with traumatic brain injury . We medically evacuated the first patient i believe was february 6th, 2017, and for it next two months evacuated 40 more people and we had the specialist from miami go to havana and assess more people. As we saw more and more patients and they were able to do the objective assessments it became the pattern of injuries became consistent with what i testify as being most likely a version of traumatic brain injury and concussion. For those employees that were or are currently being treated, will it department continue to cover all of their medical care . I would refer that question to the officer of medical services. Were committed to do everything we can under existing authorities to provide the care and support those existing authorities suggest there is some limitation to the treatment you will give these employees . The we are there may be some limitations to family members over the course of because typically people injured in the course of duty would be covered by the Workers Compensation law and family members would not be. Well, i would ask you in response to my questions to give the committee a full sense of what limitations there are. I dont think when we send a diplomat abroad who is attacked by whom ever at the end of the day that their health and well beingicide should be limed in response. I think you want to send a message that if theyre attacked they will be taken care of and i consider them in this respect a veteran of our diplomatic efforts so i would like to see what limitations there are if any and see if we can respond to that. I have plenty of other question. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Im not sure who to direct this to. I do agree with mr. Brown, this is a perplexing case. Does anybody know how many different locations this has been perpetrated at . Senator, i dont have the exact locations, several residences and two hotels. Are you aware of any cuban nationals or people not associated with the diplomatic core . Subsequent to the issuance of our travel warning on october 1 of 2017, there have been 18 american citizen reports to the Departments Bureau of councilor affairs. That information has been shared with the investigators. Of all the reports, what percentage approximately is there inaudible type of attack opposed to feeling ill or dizzy or experiencing vertigo . Is it associated with some kind of high pitched sound or something . Senator, youre referring to the attacks against the diplomats. We dont have information about the attacks on individuals. So with the diplomats, how often is that . 100 of the time . They hear something or the vast majority of the 24 cases reported hearing or feeling some auditory sensation. When you say feel auditory sensation, something, feeling a flutter in your ear or something, like capitation you hear with the lowering the window in your car . The descriptions in sensation vary quite a bit. Some vibration and some loud sounds. The descriptions have varied. Have we ever set up any kind of monitoring device in any of those residences . Yes, sir. We have provided off the shelf recording devices that are geared to record High Frequency sounds. We have successfully recorded some sounds and turned those over to investigators. Thats interesting. When you recorded those sounds, did people exhibit the symptoms . I believe that some of those at least were associated with individuals who later showed symptoms. I defer to the doctor also to comment on that. Doctor, are you aware of any type of technology that would cause this . No, im not. Not that you know exactly what caused this but are you aware of some type of auditory type of weapon that could cause this type of damage . No, im not, sir. Mr. Palmieri, duo you know i the United States government is aware of any . No, i do not, sir. Take senator rubios description and whats required by law. As medical doctor it seems like you hopped on this quick and we had experts come in 2017, literally a month and a half of when Embassy Personnel were even made aware of this. Short of a fullscale orb for medical personnel do you have any regrets in terms of things you didnt do . No regrets, sir. Its important to remember when i said serious injuries, at the time the injuries were serious as any acute injury would be. One thing that hasnt become clear and still not certain, what if any long term consequences could be. Someone can suffer a serious injury but may improve completely. At that point, theyre able to go on and dont have health consequences. Each step of the way, we identified where we had information gaps. We out to fill those gaps and got the best care we could fine for our personnel and made decisions at each point of the investigation. An injury from an illness, at what point do you believe an injury was caused by some type of attack or are you still not certain of that . After our discussion with the panel of academic experts in july, when the panel reviewed other possible explanations, each explanation seemed to have holes in it. The panel felt the one explanation that could probably best explain or most likely to explain it was a nonnatural incident that caused the injuries. That was in july of 2017. Yes. My final question, how many Embassy Personnel requested relocation . Is that a decision made by the state department to move people or the medical core . There were eight individuals who requested departure from havana before the secretarys decision that moved the post from an ordered departure status. Were those requests granted . Anyone who wanted to depart post was allowed to depart post. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, mr. Chairman and thank you all for testifying today. I think this committee had a classified briefing on this issue in october. Mr. Palmieri, you said it was only in a classified briefing . Are there additional instances . I think there could be a classified briefing. There have been developments since and we have tried to keep the Committee Informed to the best of our ability. It would be worthwhile, yes, senator. Theres an ap headline that you all may have seen that says the fbi doubts the sonic attack. The fbi report has been the clearest report today of the sonic theory, the report say the fbi tested the hypothesis the air pressure waves ultrasound could be used to clandestinely hurt americans in cuba and found no evidence. Do you believe that this report is accurate that was in the aps story . Senator, i comment its an fbi report and i would hesitate to comment on the fbi findings at this point. Mr. Chairman, did we ask the fbi if they would come and testify before the committee about this issue . We did not. The fbi generally will not testify because of the jurisdictional issues of the judiciary. Is there a way to get the information from the fbi report in a classified briefing . There is. I think thats one of the things senator menin dez is asking about. That would be helpful. How has the cuban government responded about these attacks and have they been cooperative in the investigation . Senator, im not aware theyve been uncooperative. We had our own Investigative Team that went down in may and they had no difficulties entering the country and certainly working the case in terms of the u. S. Mission. Im also unaware if the fbi encountered any difficulties coming in and out for investigative purposes. Beyond that, i do know the cuban government said they would conduct a parallel investigation so to speak. I understand there is increased security presence in our residential areas, purportedly in response to this issue. I honestly dont know if that is a legitimate effort to uncover but know there is increased pr mr. Palmieri, knowing what you know about the way the cuban government operates, do you believe that it could have been deliberate attacks on our personal without the cuban government knowing about it . I find it veryy difficult too believe that. Cuba is a security state, the cuban government in general has a very tight lid on anything and everything that happens in that country. And have they been more responsive because we asked them to remove their Embassy Personnel . Has that produced any change in their behavior . The cuban government, since we expelled the personnel in october, has engaged in a pattern of trying to discredit the areas related to these attacks. I do not think that is a helpful posture for them to take. Have actually investigated the attacksle themselves, mr. Brown . According to the cuban authorities, they said that they were opening a parallel investigation. Beyond that, im unaware of what theyve done or what theyve uncovered. Perhaps that could be a question posed to fbi investigators. So we have not, the state department has not seen the results of any report that theyve done . Not that im aware of, no. Given sender, if i could clarify that last point. We did have a lawenforcement dialogue in september what they did share with the department a document that they purported to be the results of their preliminary investigation into this matter. And david shedd in the light on or provide information that we didnt already have . Did it shed. I have not seen the report but im not aware that any new Information Service due to a cuban investigation. My time is up but if i could just ask one more question, mr. Chairman. Mr. Palmieri, and someone who has watched cuba for some time, given the change in american policy during the Obama Administration to resume a diplomatic relationship with cuba and to begin to resume other commercial and other ties with the country, is there any reason to think he would be in cubas interest to make deliberate attacks against our Embassy Personnel at a time whee there was an effort to resume ties with the country . I am loath to speculate on cuban government intentions. However, there is a long history and pattern of cuban harassment of u. S. Diplomats stationed in havana. Its entirely possible that they could have escalated that pattern of harassment and caused these incidents. In whatever case, they are responsible for the safety and security of u. S. Diplomats stationed in havana under the Vienna Convention, and they have failed ton live up to that responsibility. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you. Udall. Thank you very m uch, mr. Chairman. I obviously care, like you do, very much, and i think all of us here, about our personnel overseas, and if they get harmed and making sure that they get adequate medical personnel. And, doctor, you seem to suggest that they get the care and that some of the care you were drawing lines, some may be workmens comp. , others may be that they were not serving in the line of duty, something along that line. Of the 24 cases which of those would you say are workmens comp. . With the offduty . Were all of them offduty or some of them onduty situations in the hotel, the two hotels and at the residence . All 24 are getting the best care available. And you plan to keep that care, the best care available like you are talking about . Right. As individuals they have the option to seeking the care they want. In terms of the workers comp issue, that determines how that care is paid for. In years Government Employees working in embassy, we consider this an occupational exposure. Therefore, were encouraging our personnel or employees to make a claim to department of labor for Workers Compensation. The issue is that may be in from the number might be affected because they are not the employee. But are you aware of any of these 24 individuals or individuals who are now paying for their medical care because the government will no longer provide it . So no one is actually paying for the medical care right now directly. We have authorities to medically validr kuwait personnel evacuate. We seek reimbursement for the medical insure, the primary medical insure first. We are committed to providing what we call secondary payer benefits to personnel who are affected overseas. We have authority to get for up to your. Again, primarily for employees but we also benefit to do that foro a time for family members s well. Okay. So there no outofpocket expenses incurredut d by any employees or family members right now. Senator shaheen read the recent ap story with the fbi concluded that this wasnt a sonic attack, basically ruled that out. As you know the fbi took a number of trips to cuba. They interviewed down there. They were very, very thorough in terms of what they did, and so then coming out with this report, which you cant comment on, would you tell us what your theories are of what happened. They have ruled that out. What are your theories of what you think happen . Well, theres been, you know, when this thing has been looked at from an investigative standpoint, i dont think solely the acoustic element has been looked at. From the very beginning even going back to late february when we had that moment of a medical element associated with this, that it was shared with Interagency Community of what possibly could t be happening in havana. And though these events were associate with an acoustic element they were still looking at other possibilities. And so not to me with the fbi. I know this report was not put at publicly. What are your they have ruled that out. Have you ruled it out or do you still i dont know iy would rule t outul entirely. The acoustic element could be used as a masking on what basis are you claimingld that its acoustic . Im not claiming that its acoustic. I just know theyre been acoustic element associated with the sensations and feelings. Whether if the fbi has determined that that is not the case, which ive not seen the support that i dont think its been released publicly, that doesnt mean that acoustic element couldnt be part of another type of, style of attack. I do know that other types of attacks are being considered in connection with this. And what are those . I think there is viral. Theres ultrasound. Theres a range of things that the technical experts are looking at as could this be a possibility. When you say viral come you talk about somebody intentionally implanting a virus . That would not be rolled out. That could be a possibility. And then ultrasound you are saying . Yeah, i seen the sort of range of what possibly could be taking place beyond sort of the acoustic element. And those arere some of the this that a been mentioned to be at. Ed in some cases they been rolled out from experts and they dont know how that could be done in that fashion. I see my time is up, mr. Chairman. Id like a second round, but okay here okay. Were all alone. Whoevers watching cspan. We may be rejoined. Let me also say that i supported president obamas efforts to reengage with cuba. I believe president trumps decision to walk back some of those efforts is a major mistake, that only harms the cuban peoplee and isolates the United States in the region. Cuba has been looking to reopen and grow ties with the u. S. And u. S. Businesses, including those in new mexico, arizona, florida and mississippi, and with many u. S. Citizens who want to travel there. Mi in my trips to cuba, taken a number of trips, the last one was with several members, senator leahy, senator cochran. This was in february 2017, so it was after this was already unfolding down there. Was there with senator leahy, senator cochran, senator bennet, representative mcgovern. We had a veryle good visit and visit with a number of officials, and stayed in hotels down there. As far as i can tell from any other members that went along, nothing of the sort happened to us. I wonder why with cuba, there seems to be a huge interest on them wanting to open up, wanting to have the engagement with our business community. And all of these things, what would be their motive when the cuban government was looking to increase ties with the u. S. . Mr. Palmieri, or mr. Brown . Again, i cant speculate on what motive the cubans would have. Its just, it has happened in havana in the country, a country which they generally exercise total Security Control over. Its incomprehensible to us that they are not aware of how and who is responsible, and that they cannot take steps to prevent these kind of attacks from ever happening again. Well, they had said on a number of locations, on our trip down there, the foreign minister here, that it did not condone the attacks in any way. They were not a part of it. They hadad no knowledge of them. Theyve been very forthright i think in that respect. The safety of our diplomats is paramount, and i foundf it interesting that many u. S. Diplomats disagreed with the departure orders,nd as did their employee association, the american Foreign Service association, whose president , barbara stephenson, said at the time their view, this is a quote from her comp is that americas diplomats need to remain on the field and in the game. We have permission to do and its an important mission. And what happened here, what the United Stateso did was very different than what was done by the canadians. Canadian diplomats in havana also reported mysterious ailments, yet canada has not reduced its diplomatic presence in havana are dispelled the diplomat from ottawa. Why has that been so different from the canadian response . Secretary tillerson from his first day at the department has said that the safety, wellbeing, and health and security of u. S. Diplomats overseas are as top priority. It is mine as well. This decision to go to ordered departure reflects his belief and his concern, and our concern, that we had to take this the step to protectn, our people, ad that the cuban government had to do more to assure us that these attacks would stop. Has any other country in the world done what weve done, with the drawn all other diplomats, except a small Emergency Force . In havana . Not that im aware of. And are you aware that any canadian diplomats, and since all of this has unfolded, have they had additional ailments or additional problems . The canadians have withdrawn some of their personnel, but i think we could go into greater detail in the classified briefing on that element. Thanks. We look for tope that. The Trump Administration has reversed a variety of steps to improve ties made by the previousn administration. What benefits have we achieved from these actions . How present this impacted american businesses asti well as cuba . Im sorry, i missed the first part of that question. Irst part of that question. I say the Trump Administration has reversed a variety of steps to improve ties made by the previous administration, referring to the Obama Administration trying to improve ties, trying to open up and engage, trying to help the cuban people. Weve seen a big growth in the Small Business community there in cuba. Im just wondering now that this administration has reversed all of that, what are you aware that the cuban people are doing better . How has this impacted the people as well as in new mexico excuse me, in cuba . President trumps new National Security president ial memorandum on cuba lays out a new policy, you are correct, senator. That is designed to not just help the private sector in cuba, but to ensure that the cuban government lives up to its International Commitments on human rights, to allow us to appropriate our freedom on behalf of the cuban people and to ensure that we are enforcing the u. S. Law with respect to the embargo and the statutory ban on tourism to cuba. The measures we have taken are designed to ensure that any engagement in assistance, private sector assistance in cuba, benefits the cuban people and not the regime. Thank you very much. And i hope that what will occur here is that you will continue to share with us how this progresses. I mean, this is a very pursue perplexing situation and i think we should continue our investigations here in the congress both in private security briefings and those kinds of situations, but i think we should be careful not to jump to conclusions until we really know what happened. Thank you, mr. Chairman, really appreciate you calling this hearing. Thank you, and any other members up here, ill kind of try to wrap up the loose ends and take off with senator udall at the end, thats jumping to conclusions. Thats why i think its important for the hearing to layout the facts. I read this headline a couple of days ago, fbi rules out sonic attacks and some other things out there about it and so you read that and you can conclude that Nothing Happened, in essence, i saw at one point the cuban government said it could be crickets or some insect noise, cicadas, i didnt know we dont have that problem in miami, but you have them . Yeah. A lot of con cussive effects after . All right. Well, yeah. But my point is that you could read that headline and conclude that that means that Nothing Happened and thats the method by which the attack there has not been a definitive we cannot definitively say here today and say this is the machine or this is the thing they used to cause these injuries, okay . And no one has claimed that we know that. What i think is not in dispute is that there are 24 americans who either worked for the u. S. Government or were there with a as a dependent of a u. S. Government employee who during their time in havana have experienced symptoms that are consistent with what you had seen in mild traumatic brain injury and or concussion. Thats an established fact that weve talked about today. We may not know how it happened to that point, but we know it happened to 24 people while they were working in havana. Doctor, let me ask you, is there any thought given to the fact that this is a case of mass hysteria, that a bunch of people are being hyp hypochondrs and making it up . They have brain injuries, and the injuries are not easily faked. There are exact findings that our experts have determined. That being said, no etiology, no cause has been fully ruled out and were looking their doctors are looking at everything, but the findings suggest that this is not an episode of mass hysteria. So we know for a fact that 24 americans that were in havana either related to on on government business for a significant period of time for a period of time have come back with these symptoms. Thats a fact. So when people are reporting sonic attack ruled out, perhaps the sonic part has been ruled out, but the fact if its even true by the way, thats what the headline said. But the fact that people have been hurt, thats established fact. Does anyone on the panel dispute that, that people have been hurt while working for the u. S. Government in havana. The request he is the role of oversight and were playing word games here, but i think this is really important because this is an Oversight Committee and our job is to conduct oversight over the department of state here is what we know. We know the law says any serious injury to u. S. Government Mission Abroad the secretary of state shall convene a board, and it says serious injury not permanent. And concussions, after football, theyre serious injury. If i told you im going to cause you to have mild traumatic brain injury, you would think thats serious, whether it be its permanent or not. Thats what the law says. We know that these complaints came in by late 2016, that we were by that there were visits to the medical unit in late december of 16 and throughout 17, and we know that they were serious enough by mid february we approached the cuban government about it and we know that in the early stages after this occurred, it was the opinion of both the leadership at the post in havana and in the supporting office in washington that this is likely some form of harassment by forces hostile to the United States, or our presence in cuba, that was the assessment made at that time. We know that in late april, and certainly by early may, we had 16 people that we could identify with symptoms and medically verifiable similar to mild traumatic brain injury or concussion. We know by september 29th we ordered the departure of nonemergency personnel. All of these things happened and yet, we know that by october, certainly by november 6th of this year, an arv was still not up and running. You do the math on the calendar, these facts that i just laid out extrapolated backwards should have led to the aappointment. I understand it was a transition and change in administration, but we should have had an accountability review board in place or some notification given as to why its no longer necessary. Of course, since then the decision has been made and where are we, by the way mrmr. Mrmr. Mr. Palmieri, when was this the secretary did accountability review board on december 11th. I believe a congressional notification will arrive shortly and thats required before the board is actually constituted, senator. So, on december 11th, so we okay, i can tell you thats more than 120 days from all of these facts, which i think, lead to the argument that we should have had. Now, because we dont know how these attacks were conducted, suffice it to say, let me ask this, doctor, and mr. Brown, and this would never happen, but if someone in the u. S. Government says we want to cause these symptoms in people, that technology doesnt exist, we dont know of that technology, is that accurate . We are not aware of a technology that does this . Weve never seen any technology anywhere in the world that does this to people . Thats my understanding, senator, when going to the subject Matter Experts and both in government and outside government. We have not seen this. Doctor, have you ever seen cases of this outside an actual blow to the head or something similar. I have not. And thats consistent with what weve been told. The reason i raise this, obviously this is a pretty sophisticated thing. This is not something conducted by a fly by night operation. Whatever happened to the people, happened as a result of some Sophisticated Technology that frankly is so sophisticated we dont understand it. So, it leads you then so you have a sophisticated attack of some sort causing injuries, we dont know who has that sophisticated material, but we know its pretty sophisticated, leads you to a nation state, somebody who can afford this and the motivation. I can its there to stay and most members of the committee would argue and many of you would share this view, whoever did this, did this because they wanted there to be friction between the United States and the cuban government. That would be the motivation behind this. Someone who wanted to cause friction between u. S. And cuban government and particularly, look at timing, november, december, 2016 after the election, and so, it started makes you start to think who would do this . Someone who doesnt like our presence there and someone who wants there to be a sort of friction between the u. S. Who would be motivated to create friction or not in favor of increased u. S. Presence in cuba or the first, obviously, is opponents of u. S. Cuba opening under the Obama Administration. I dont think any credible person on the planet believes that some group of anticastro cubans conducted these attacks in an elaborate scheme against the obama opening. I dont want to spend time on that, unless someone thinks its a valuable option. And the second is a rogue element in the cuban government itself. Its interesting, i read the report and talked about the initial reaction, maybe this is inaccurate, but Associated Press reported in a rare facetoface conversation, castro told u. S. Diplomate that he was baffled and concerned, and he denied any responsibility, but u. S. Officials were caught off guard by the way he addressed the matter. Devoid of the indignant how dare you accuse us attitude from cubas leader. And the government didnt deny that something troubling didnt happen on cubas ground. And subsequently potentially castro is aware of rogue elements in his own government that may have been behind this, whether you want to call them hardliners or people that feel they just dont they feel like they would be in a stronger position if the opening had not occurred or increased presence or people concerned about a u. S. Presence in light of the transition thats theoretically supposed to take place sometime this year. Im not asking you for anything classified, i dont think that such an i think this would be classified, but, mr. Palm mr. Palmieri, are we aware that raul castro ever said it wasnt us, but it could have been someone within us who could have done this . If i has raul castro ever said to any u. S. Diplomate, i didnt do it, but its possible some of my guys did it without me knowing about it . I do not believe that communication has ever occurred. Is that your answer because you dont want to discuss something that is not in the proper setting or is that just your you just, never heard that. Thats my recollection ive never heard that, but we can check the diplomatic record and see if there was any exchange like that. I do not believe so. Okay. And then the last one, and this is a question you say if it wasnt a rogue element within the castro government, maybe it was a third country. Which third country would want to disrupt the u. S. Presence there . And the logical conclusion is russia and vladimir putin. During the cold war, do we have any documented cases of similar attacks against individuals anywhere in the world . Im not aware, senator, of anything similar to this, no, sir. I believe in the late 50s and 60s, there were some evident that microwave beams or radiation was directed against the u. S. Embassy in moscow, and i think it stopped in 1975, 1976, so, there were some microwave attacks against the u. S. Diplomatic presence in moscow between some point in the 1950s through the mid 1970s . Senator, im not knowledgeable enough to say whether they were attacks. I know they were investigating excess microwave that they were i believe you were asked by senator menendez whether this was raised by the russian government and you couldnt answer that in that setting. Why would a communication to a Foreign Government contained Sensitive Information be classified . In essence . Is it typical any communication with a Foreign Government cause were aware, for example, weve addressed this with the cuban government. Why would the fact or lack of existence of a communication to the russian government be something that we cant discuss in public . Because of the nature of an interagency discussion to give the context to give you the full reply would be required and i believe that would be more appropriate in the classified setting. And then, i think that the last point that i think is pretty clear here is that its important for us not ascribe havana attributes of new york or washington d. C. Cuba by all accounts is the most heavily monitored and surveilled country in the western hemisphere. Does anyone disagree with that statement. Its a police state. Does anyone disagree with the assessment that the city of havana is the most monitored and surveilled city within the isle of cuba . I think thats and then let me ask you, u. S. Government personnel, have you are an employee of the United States government and you are going to havana, what level of monitoring or surveillance should you expect when you are put in position there . What do we tell our people when they go, outside of this context . Do they have free rein to do anything they want or expect that they are being monitored or closely kept tabs on. Mr. Brown. I dont want to go into too much dont tell me the method. Certainly we prepare our personnel for levels of surveillance and levels of harassment, and movement are certainly restricted and movements are anticipated that there will be a cuban element monitoring those movements. What other posts in the world would you say is comparable to the level of surveillance, history of harassment, that a u. S. Government employee would find in havana. What other places in the world have got similar attributes . Senator, i think were getting close to classified area and i would hesitate to compare. Im not asking you for the type of harassment or surveillance, but i think its classified to say that the ranking of the level of Counter Intelligence is a classified area. Im not asking for the ranking. Im saying who compares, is it like it is in montreal or quebec . It is not. The reason why im asking this, if a u. S. I think its safe to conclude if im a u. S. Government employee working in the embassy in havana, the cuban government knows where i live and is probably watching me every single day. The idea that somehow, someone could conduct an attack so sophisticated that we dont even know what it is, without the cuban government at least knowing about it, to one u. S. Government employee not to mention 24 over a 12month period is outside the realm of reasonable its ridiculous. I could understand if somebody was mugged on the street corner, but these are sophisticated attacks, so sophisticated ive said that we cant describe how it happened to 24 u. S. Government employees and their dependents in the most heavily monitored city in the most monitored country in the hemisphere, and in the world and u. S. Is watched for activities. And the idea that someone could put together some sort of action against them, 24 of them and the cuban government not see it or not about it, its just not possible. And so, it leads you to conclude that the cuban government either did this or they know who did it and they cant say because whoever did it is either a third Party Country that they cannot take on or elements within their own regime that they do not want to reveal for purposes of not making it appear to be unstable internally. And so, i think these are all good conclusions from this hearing that conclude by saying, my admonition at the beginning. I think its really unfair for any suggestion that people working on behalf of the u. S. Government were not injured in havana and interviewed one of these people working on our behalf who are now suffering from these injuries and reading in a newspaper somewhere that what happened to you didnt happen. Not only demoralizing and unfair to them. We can say we dont know how it happened or dont know for sure who did it, but two things for sure, people were hurt and the cuban government know who did it and they just wont say for some reason. I think thats the biggest take away other than i remain concerned about the state departments unwillingness to stand up the avb. Accountability review board in a timely fashion with the law and i think that will be a topic of discussion further down the road. I think that will conclude my question. And i dont see other members. Do you have any other questions senator udall . Thank you for being here, i know its a unique and perplexing subject matter, something we havent really seen. Let me just get the were going to have youre probably going to dd you may, senator menendez and other members, senator flake had to leave and this is a topic he cared about a lot, but he had to be at the white house as well as senator menendez on an immigration meeting so they had to leave, but both have indicated theyll have extensive questions for the record and so were going to keep the record open for 48 hours and id ask their questions be answered in a timely fashion so that we can close out this hearing and have all of this information. I also ask that my questions, that remain unanswered, when was secretary kerry notified, when was president obama notified, and whether the trump transition was briefed on this topic also be taken back to the record. I think these are important questions to have answers for and seeing no other members here, nothing else further, this meeting is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] sunday night on after words, georgetown law professor look at the way that the courts goes through fines and fees, in the book not a crime to be poor, the criminalization in america. Was poverty a issn issue in terms of the war on drugs or the victims of the war on drugs. Sure. How did poverty play into that. No man around. What happens to families. What happened to the men who have been locked up and collateral consequences, they cant get jobs, not allowed to live in public housing. 45,000 laws around the country, collateral consequences of one kind or another, it destroys somebodys life. If they werent poor when they went into prison, theyre definitely poverty stricken for the rest of their lives. Its totally connected to poverty. Wave after words sunday night at 9 p. M. Eastern on book tv, on cspan2. Cspan, where history unfold daily. In 1979 cspan was created as a Public Service by americas Cable Television companies is brought to you today by your cable oratellite provider. The Trump Administration has announced that deferred action for childhood arrivals program, also known as daca, will end on march 5th. That Program Gives temporary legal status to undocumented immigrants who arrived in the country as children. Yesterday senator Bernie Sanders called on his