Transcripts For CSPAN2 Edward Ayers The Thin Light Of Freedom 20171224

Im in House Counsel here at the constitutioner in and about to treat you to an exciting i want to give a quicking bug for some of our upcoming programs. Next week we will welcome former white house advisor for discussion on one with of the more widely misunderstood constitutional prakses impeachment u new biography on michigan senator arthur vangdenburg and later this month well have the Atlantic Franklin four for a tuck on his new book World Without mind the threat of big tech, and leading thinkers including jacob of the National Interest and sam of the knock times for conversation of the future of american conservatism and members receive free tickets to Town Hall Program and discounted to blockbuster evening programs and our continuing Legal Education credit offering. And for more information on membership or on Upcoming Schedule check out the membership table outside in the lobby own now to introduce our guest speaker a leading civil war historian is tucker boat right professor at the university of richmond where hes president , he was awarded National Humanity medal in 2013 by president barack obama and is countrily serving as president of the organization of american historians for the 20107, 2018 term. He joins us today to discuss his latest book the thin light of freedom civil war emancipation in heart of america on sale in our museum store join me in welcoming ed arrest. [applause] so ed thank you for being here to discuss this great new book. My pleasure. So book came out of a digital archive valley of a shadow can you tell us a little bit about this project and how it led you to writing your previous bock in the rinse of my enemy and this book we thought this in up 1991 and those of you who web with worldwide web didnt exist then but the idea was wouldnt it be great if we could share every piece of evidence of every person who lived in two communities in pennsylvania, chambersburg, and in virginia stanton. And what instead of history being something that just presents it as a done deal, to students and to people who like to read history we could share the actual evidentiary record but that seemed like a great idea and tooing us 14 years are to do that because it turns out there is enormous amount of material about 19th Century America so every letter, die rir, newspaper article since this entry military record church record, tax record freedom bower row record all of those kinds of things but the idea was that i wouldnt be able l to see all of that evidence. That people could explore for themselves but you can see basically every source that i use for this book for yourself and see just how exactly u how wrong i was. Its been used many millions of times all around the World Teachers used it for people to get a sense of where history comes from. Its not just that we make up stuff or our opinion but based on evidence. I have to admit i often my mom a fifth grade teacher what graduate school in history and what for honey we already know what happened. [laughter] and ever since then ive been trying to show her no we dont. It is actually a lot more complicated than you think. So we the valley created the opportunity to write presence by enemies in 2003, then it became a dean condition and then i became a president a enall of this this time valley of a shadow waiting for me to come back and then last year i was able to spend a year exploring again beautiful thing is it still works, and so i hope youll explore valley of the shadow. Great. And so this book focuses on two counties us in frank lean county sort of a broadcast of characters and can you tell us who are some your favorite characters in this . It is better to be lucky than smart. And so turns out that after i chose two places because i knew they were central isly involved in the war we discovered remarkable records about people and turns out we have only parallel die diary of a husband and wife from Franklin County rachel and samuel who reads book falls in love with them. Theyre entirely appealing people who from canada come back to pennsylvania to help save the United States. And so samuel is 17th cavalry rachel at home with baby corp. Corp. With a watching as big events sweep over invasion of pennsylvania that comes the battle the gettysburg and able to follow them on home front and battle field throughout every step of the war so im a big fan. Also theres a guy it joseph less of a diary a newspaper man who sees everything with eyes a reporter but turns outs bad eyes he cant fight and with ten woman wife and sister and other people including enslaved poem and writes down every day what had it looks like from his hes kind of skeptical he was before the war that he has doubt about slavery admits that she has doubts about confederacy yet a defend so to see behind scenes as in other thing that i felt was so lucky for the value of the shadow and thus this book contains largest single clx of letters letter africanamerican soldier who is fought the troops, and they were misfiled in the county next door for charles widow of the man who is won to characters and who is stfer all of the others she reare married after war after a he dies from wounds from fort wagner and filed with her second husband in the next county over. New york times did a story about valley of the shadow back in 1999 this professor read that you would never find it. But you wont believe how great these letters are. So we have yall remember story of r glory, these men are with that unit at every step from drilling in boston all the way up through marching back through streets of boston after a the war. So i love afl those people. But sometimes people make kanyia they have one with quote or they appear just a fleeting instance. Theres one that i like i dont know her name. Union officer is in the Shannon Valley and notices 75yearold woman who is marching along with the union army termed not to be left behind and he says shes walking for freedom i suppose. So theres literally hundreds of people in there, and it was hard choosing just switch vignette chawrp them so unfair question but well stop request that. [laughter] so in the book you discuss gettysburg. And 50,000 men from both sides were killed, and so is this really turning point in the war and also i was wonder if you would like to talk about story of john who is another character in the book and his retreat with wounded from gettyburg. Well it seems a little insensitive to come from pennsylvania to virginia so say that it was not turning point of the war but you know im doing that. [laughter] you know, we look back on it and it seems that it was pivot of the war. And both the white and north south agree that it the pivot of the war because it ended up being exactly in the middle it turns out but what that reminds us is many men dieded after gettysburg as died before that war is certainly not determined by gettysburg even its coincidence with digs bug so book in general is telling to forgive whatever you know about the war put yourself in is the shoes of the people who are living it at the time. And you will realize that there are so many turning points, and that one thing i point out is that the war wases impossible. The civil war could not have happened. The things that happened in civil war were so deeply unlikely. So gettysburg is very important theres a reason that volume one ends with gettyburg and volume two so double your gettysburg for the set. It is dramatically important. But in some ways it is ornght for what didnt happen. And this book begins lee cool off big victory at vicktorville and he wants to demonstrate to north that they cannot believe that Abraham Lincoln that he can not predict to protect them that they can just walk right in to pennsylvania this beautifully rich area, and theres nothing that army can do to stop them. Hes also he writes his wife lee does and he says what i want to do is affect the election of next year so everything that is political is also military. And vice versa. So what could have happened and what lee expected to happen is that they would be able to stay in pennsylvania for a long time. Resupply their very hungry horses and men, ship massive amount as of the bounty of pennsylvania back into virginia. And maybe make it all the way to philadelphia maybe make it to harrisburg is what they think theyre going to be able to do. They did not plan on being able to stay a short time to be driven away. So if you consider what had might have happened and be consequence withs of that and didnt happen, gettysburg is turning point if you consider what had wail did happen, there was much hard fighting and much still up in the air after gettysburg. Uhhuh. So you discuss the election of 1864. Which you described as the most critical in our history. And so can can you talk a little bit about what were some of the issues in the election, and why was election so critical and maybe just a little bit about the platforms of the republicans and democrats . I can. So what i argue is that the Pivotal Moment in the civil war was election the 1864 and many things were facing that and they adopt the United States constitution almost in hole changing just a couple of things one a frank acknowledgement of slavery rather than people held about service, and extending term of the president of six years. And so Jefferson Davis never has to come up for reelection but as soon as lincoln is elected this 1860 he knows that hes going to come up again 1864 and a lot of the war is is pivots around that knowledge. Hes what you need to remember, after a gettysburg, after the gettysburg address, after vicksburg, lee does not think in the fall 1864 that hes going to be reelected. Okay. Lincoln in the fall of 1864 does not think hes going to be reare elected. And the war is going to badly especially in virginia sherman is still bottled up in border of tennessee and embay that that United States is demanded so much of its people and yet cannot seem to defeat this enemy that they outnumber and have so much more material than they do. And so democrats are vicious against lincoln. I think it is people and people read this book i know all of you will its a holiday gift whatever holiday you may have [laughter] but you will see that they are seeing things harder about Abraham Lincoln what you can imagine it is on his bloody hands that rest of death of your sons things like that that are very powerful so the democrats are a tough position because they dont want to pull against the United States. But they dont want to go too well because lincoln will be reelected so they are on a platform that says what we should be for is peace. How many of your sons are you willing to give and do you really want to sew the slaves freeded and do you really want them to flood into places papa . Do you really want that because thats not what we went to war for we went to war to save the United States. And this Republican Party has turned it per verted it into an antislavery war is what in thes are saying hes remarkable thing. Its very close the democrats have their convention in chicago, theyre feeling great and when they get back home sherman is taken atlanta like you know, that cut whole argument that war is being lost and theyre going to have to negotiate with the confederates. Democrats dont say much about the future of slavery, and slavery has been deeply disrupted where United States army goes but we have to remember as late as this, 3 million of the enslave people of the south have never come within touch of the union army. Okay. That the south size of the Continental Europe and the United States without all of the paraphernalia that we have today cannot penetrate a lot of those places so its not clear what had the future of slavery might be. So after sherman talls things look a lot better. But pennsylvania still hangs in the balance. And lincoln says if i wases pennsylvania, i might lose everything. The two largest States New York and pennsylvania new york is going to go with the democrats and pennsylvania could go to the republicans. So i dont to ruin this story. Tell you how it turns out but i would say this. Lincoln persuades almost nobody from the democrats to vote for him in 1864 they have in 1860 nearly 48 of white northern men will not o vote in 1864. Isnt that amazing been imreats National Crisis with our greatest president or for the greatest purpose that democrats will vote for george in the ends of the war. 80,000 votes in krit corral areas not elected Abraham Lincoln so number that we may have heard in recent elections about the same percentage we understand now, but the retrocollege did what it was supposed to do to give lincoln a great mandate and so coming out of the election theres no question that all of the things republicans are pursuing but what we need to remember all through reconstruction that nearly half of what northern men havent changeed their mind but theres a crucial part of the story that we usual lily leave out so eager to cheer on grant and lee, and not lee lincoln to see great outco. War that we know and we forget how many resisted to every step of the way. Did i get all of the clauses . Yes, and so kind of relating to that since you know lincoln won this huge mandate but necessarily didnt have all popular support, he started to believe that a constitutional amendment wases necessary 13th amendment. So can can you talk a little bit about what they can do . I can. I have reason to believe people might be interested in the constitution so lets talk about that. So election says it was first popular referendum on emancipation and it is because everything that had happened to end slavery before then had been done by lincoln himself as comangder in chief emancipation proclamation more importantly so he realizes that if mclellan wins in many future or courts challenge his authority to have ended slavery if theres a different lineup on courts or if congress that it is imperialed. So you both remember that Great Lincoln movie and why are we seeing this after the war is almost over, and were seeing lincoln politicking thats because what has to happen if they dont get the 1th amendment passed before the war ends, these things are in jeopardy and needs to be solidified but they have a Lame Duck Congress and persuade democrats unelected but be there to side with the 13th amendment. So again, i throw in the story, hay do, and hes able to get it through narrowly, so people dont often realize that the 13th amendment comes before the end of the civil war, and it has to or everything is imperialed. So the north is excited about victory and johnson becomes president not long after, and so johnson president what is the effect on reconstruction to past, but lincoln doesnt leave very specific instructions for what his vision for reconstruction would offend. Thank you for all of the easy questions i would say on that that lees last public address i keep saying lee. Lincoln last public address is about reconstruction. And this is not a direct quote that it is Something Like this. Ill get back to you on the details. [laughter] but i will have more to say about this at some future date and tragically it does not. But lincoln does not play out a plan for reconstruction expect try to put the country back together as quickly as he can. He had a plan 10 of the population would declare loyalty of the United States and come back to the country they could. So Andrew Johnson believes that he is following lincolns plan which is to help restore the country. Now i want to be honest with you, i went to Andrew Johnson Elementary School in east tennessee i think theres only two in the country. One 35 miles away where he was from and for some reason in the town where i grew up, and but what and hes just universally despised but what we need to remember is upon lincoln desk democrat and republicans said thank goodness we have Andrew Johnson he was great hero only white southern smart who refused not to go to the confederacy and then been great peril wartime governor of tennessee, and so had been, obviously, lincoln eying running mate to republicans had had reason to think this is what were looking for guy who understands white south. But is committed to union and success but johnson unlike lincoln really did not value freedom of the enslaved poem and he was willing to sacrifice them and their rights for the quickest reunification of the country that he could come up with and in his mind what that meant was that you had almost all white men in the south support the confederacy. Even though theyve been for union before the war often so and massive conversion to the confederacy if we dont have those men including those who fought against the United States, being the back into power theres not going to be a base for a new Republican Party. So were going to have to reach out to the goods men of the south. I will pardon them and i take them at their word that they have knowledged that they have lost, the slavery is over and will not be permitted and theyre back in congress and republicans say these are men who were killing us just month ago and now you have them back determining our fundamental u law what becomes the fundamental issue is what will be done with the former confederate . What are the consequences of rising up in rebellion against the United States . Whatever the pretax issue that you may have had that tfsz your right as a state or whatever the fact is is that this has been what republicans call a rebellion. They should be punished they should not only hold office. They should not vote so fundamental are constitutional Social Security that should people be allowed back in power who rose against the United States . So republicans absolutely not theres no reason in the world what we should honor these pen who have been traitors instead what we should do is to enfranchise the men it shall at this time who have been held in slavery for 250 years. Theyre the ones that deserve political power but unlivelihood that things happen nowhere else after slavery end wases there such expansion and experiment of the expansion of the right of the tomorrowerly enslaved people so you go from the democrats who have been confederates think they had every expectation of running the south again, to instead former slave people run aring things. So its a huge switch in a very short period of time. Uhuh had you. So despite johnsons approach to reconstruction how did the south respond you discuss in the bock how there was a lot of resistance there were institutions like the froad man bureau but were they effective and how did this lead to the 14th amendment . [laughter] k. Thingses to argue. One its if the south doesnt then theres no way that the slavery system in modern world can end in five years. The only way that the south could only l way the United States could have had immediate uncompensated emancipation was if the south seceded because of the constitution lincoln said i have no right to end slavery where it exist. Our plan is to stop the expansion of slavery it will turn of itself and kill itself. He said it should be gone in five generations about 1960. Thats what the constitution permitted. But the south in great arrogance really said we dont need United States with the fourth richest by ourself os. We are remarkably wealthy and successful. We will be our own country. We help had create this country. We help light the constitution. And we should not be condemned by a northern majority. By risking everything, the south lost everything. And four million held in slavery became free then the white south says okay, we know that you had more men than we did and more stuff so you beat us. But that does not mean that we were wrong. And it does not mean that slavery was wrong. And they repews to accept acknowledgement of the wrong that was slavery and that was secession and create rights and opportunities for the formerly enslaved population. So it is result you have major massacre in new orleans and in memphis. You have smaller scale violation across the south every county. Every part of the south and bitter to a bureau and some of the most you scb my favorite character is the white School Teachers who come down from the north to basically risk their lives to teach the young, children and the adults who have been held in slavery illiteracy for so long they are resistnt white south says we will not tolerate black voting and the loss of our power. So this for the reconstruction comes in. I think talking about this this things that i discover comprehend least is that what we think of is reconstruction starts two years after the war. As we seen gone with the wind like theyre still there thats reconstruction but, in fact, its two years, and during two years the white south does everything it can to resist creation of black rights. So Congress Says heres what were going to have to do we have to write another amendment to the constitution graduating due process of law and graduating citizenship to every person who is born in the United States. Mkdzing enslave population and law of the language detrays date of the creation it says you have this unless you rose reare bellon against the United States like what, funny hinge to say well two years after, its not. So in some ways 9 white south creates this, creates emancipation and white south drives radical reconstruction as well. Takes bag to white northern democrats too o, though, the republicans realize what if they dont put these gains in the constitution, that the next term with democrats are in power so much of what has been won in civil war could be taken away. And the 15th amendment comes in the same way so the 14th amendment is right on just ask questions out of blue is it . Most important one but doesnt grow out of the enate goodness of American People it grows out of the profound challenge presented to them. Unless we enshrine this in constitution theres no guarantee that the freedom and opportunity and rights that were won this war will endure and, of course, as you know it is nullified in in ways for another 100 years by seg reqition and disenfranchise but 14th amendment is there when the great war struck and Civil Rights Movement comes they can draw on that. So without the 14th amendment, we dont really have the completion of these great rights. Even though at the time the white south was able to steam roll over a large park of the 14th amendment justified. In terms of what is spes fid you were talking earlier that the 14th amendment even went beyond what lincoln envisioned for rights of the enslaved was that a result of what the south is doing during reconstruction . No we dont know that lincoln would have o opposed 14th amendment. But at the time there was simply not a plan for what formerly enslaved peoples lives would be. He said that last speech that could imagine that there would be some very intelligent black men perhaps some of the 200,000 veterans who fought for the United States who would be enfranchised. Thats all that he really announced that he would be. That led John Wilkes Booth to say this is trigger for my assassination he announced black men volting. So you could argue that 14th amendment is the fulfillment of the direction that lincoln was laying out. But i think it went farther than people imagined in 1865. Wow. So you mention it had relevance and flashing forward to today on your podcast back story had is great i recommend everyone check it out. You word recorded an episode discussing some of the more recent events that have been going on in charlottesville with Confederate Monument and confederate flags and how can understanding the history of the era inform debate contemporary debate about how to understand monuments and what to do about them. Yeah, i show i back story. And it is awesome check it out. [laughter] it is based in charlottesville, and so we were there. I was going to teach a class at the university of virginia that afternoon as an alternative to things that were going on on streets and that was canceled after the death of heather, and we had to o reflect on this, you know, pretty college town sorts of engulfed in all of this from a statue built in 1920s. But also i live in richmond and im on the commission appointed by the mayor to think about what we do with the largest collection of confederate statues in the country including monument avenue. And so ive been listening to hundreds of people different opinions about this. And what i grow up im not going to announce opinion right now because my job is Civil Servant right now to keep an open mind and listen to everyone what i go to whatever you say i will argue with. So whatever position you believe, let me tell you what will the alternative argument is. Heres what i think is that it is necessary that we have this discussion. I dont see this as a dysfunction in some ways that were talking about these statues. I think it is time that we talk about these statue and that we think about who put them up, when, and for what purpose, and what can did they say when they put them up and what did other os say against them when they were put up and how have they been sort of used in the public spaces of the country . So i think that in all of the conversations that i have people tend to want to skip over the civil war itself. Often i hear that robert e. Lee was a fine man, that he had been for the union. He wasnt favor of slavery therefore civil war couldnt have been at slavery and so forth, an to those people i say lets think what would have happened had the south won. What if the men on the statues had won . Jackson and stewart, and davison, lee. You would have the creation as a separate nation of the largest Slave Holdings country in the world that was at pivot of the world economy. That had a monopoly over simg most valuable commodity in the world. Announced to thought to expand into cuba, maybe to central mexico and to america but what it looked like had had confederacy won. Is a more useful way thinking about it than saying what were motives of the men and what were the character of them along way but i find other people dont want to think about the hard journey of how it was that the rights emancipation came about, and would wonder well maybe what we really should have is statue to 200 black men who fought people held in slavery or that we should acknowledge that nearly half a northern men wouldnt vote for Abraham Lincoln in 1864 and maybe we should be acknowledging the complication of our past rather than keep trying to simplify it. Statues arent very good at telling complicated story. Thats their whole point is to tell a simple story. Here was a great man. And thats the problem were going to need to find other ways to explain this complicated story looks are one way, podcast but also ways of different kiengdz of memorials. You know job why are only memorials that we have are men on horseback. Think about the way we struggle to memorialize vietnam war and how powerful that sthat statue is we dont it feel the imrafty of this war as we should civil war bucks that drains suffering and drama out of this. One with thing we need to remember is that it is a civil war occur today, and the same share the population was killed, we would lose 8 million americans. Give people some sense of what was at stake, so i think that weve tended to think of the civil war as a white thing emancipation as black thing. We need to see it for the same thing and to understand one were going to have to understand both. We need a new vocabulary not so much about moving chess pieces around. But we need to reimagine central eventses in our history. So thats what i think is that were closer to the beginning of this conversation than we are to the end of it. And its good for this country to think about how most important thing to ever happen many this country the end of slavery actually happen and what it meant when it did. I see we have questions. Audience questions and before we get to them i want to ask just one last thing telling off what you just said concern you know youre a historian you host a podcast that is historian do you think what it should be many this ties course . In this discourse . You know, what actually happened mattered. Thats somewhat of a naive interpretation but i believe standards of proof based on evidence that actually matter. Knowing who sent what and when how they changed their minds, is actually important. So people who leak to just skip all of that and say whatever had they want to say about civil war and i find this very often that people often begin a sense with well civil war was just about i said you already lost me but just. You know if you think something is complicated to civil war in favor will sit on a Bumper Sticker youre mistaken. Civil war is not just one thing. So i think that it is important that we actually looked at the record of that we have that tells a lot more than just unfounded opinion. So i believe more in history every day as i see that the history that is suppressed, thats silenced doesnt actually go away. It just grows stronger when it comes back. Okay. Its better for us to be honest with ourselves to acknowledge complications to acknowledge shortcomings, rather than trying to make everything a monument only to our best selves for the selfs that we wish we were. I mean this for the whole country and for facet of our history it is better to be honest with ourselves rather than tell ourselves fairytales. Okay, so first audience question is the constitutional amendment requires approval of estate is legislatures how did it pass the south was 100 oppose od to it . Thats a great question. Everybody hear that . Oaks. So if constitutional amendment requireses that passage by the states how would amendments pass, well that was one thing that 13th amendment pass when is south it in congress right. Southern states under control and this is what reconstruction is that republicans say okay, you former and then call it the socalled confederacy they never actually acknowledge the confederacy that socalled confederacy if you want to cam back to the United States heres what you have to do. You have to have elections to write new constitutions. In those elections, black men have to be able to vote. And black men have to be able to be elected as to those constitutions when you have come together to have Constitution Convention that accepts the 14th amendment. Then you may come back into the United States. That is what unleashes enormous amount of black political activism and waiting all of this time mobilizing in their churches. White southerners who have told themselves or for 250 years that black people arent capable of selfgoverness in eloquent speeches and watch voter turnout to put us to shame today and bravery going to polls when boss is tell you on that line you better not be at work on wednesday. And despite that vote, and then they go to conventions and theyre too theyre eloquent and they write new constitutions and then they are accepted and this happens in over a couple of year and thats how it shall how that happens. And you know in virginia they write the new constitution and everybody all of the former confederates know that it is a joke because theres 24 africanamerican men and a number of white mornsers who were there and they know it is a terrible constitution. And the most radical thing it does is create a higher public education. And so they go you know its not so bad but heres the fact. That 18 68 and 69 by 1901 every southern by the turn of the century every Southern State has new Constitutional Conventions in which they basically nullify all of the constitutions written during reconstruction. Its during those Constitutional Convention to 1908 in which things like the grandfather clause and the understanding clause, and the poll tax, and all of the those things were put in. So Constitutional Convention endorses 14th amendment other Constitutional Conventions bypass it and actually make a travesty of it and the 15th amendment. 15th amendment says you cant restrict them voting on the account of their color so instead they do it through every other means that they can think of and thats what hobbles this out but then next century by the 1920s, voter turnout in virginia is in the 20th 20th something percent. Okay so that white and black with thats the political system is hollowed out by this reaction no reconstruction so reconstruction takes 50 years to play out that looks for all of the world as if south has won and then the Civil Rights Movement comes back and overturns that but Voting Rights act and the civil rights act. So what extent was the Supreme Court involved in any of that upholding what south was doing . Supreme court was not really important to this. This is a deeply electoral process, i think one thing that surprise me when i started thinking about this civil war thoroughly electrical it was. Americans basically voted to have the civil war and then they vote to have reconstruction. And when they dont vote that way it ends. So almost immediately after reconstruction is implemented democrats start winning in north and its undercut so you they start reconstruction but then the political power favor of it begins to wane. And so thats you dont find the Supreme Court or o white northernering doing anything to stop southern after reconstruction white south calls that redemption. They are redealing the south from the sin. Of e emancipation and versus ferguson about segregation basically say local practice trumps these provisions so allow south to reassert its control. how did the public narrative of the civil war evolve between 1861 and 1865 and maybe kind of relate to that in your book you said a lot of newspapers, and how did they kind of contradict to that narrative. Im going to extend the question a little bit about the story. Its like we see today i dont know you about look at your phone like they house the story, and unpoledding right whats the next installment and so everybody has a story all a of the time that explains it. But if you change the end of the story youve changed beginning of it so they keep going yes this is a well this wasnt end but this is coming soon when it was well go become and see civil war theres gettyburg in the middle thats a pivot around everything. Right, so the story along the way is that the north is fight for prps entirely good the restoration of the union but youll notice that theres a fundamental problem there. If you restore the union you restore with slavery in it how do you restore and get rid of slavery thats what lincoln has to, you know, democrats say youre being hypocritical but doing something thats keeping south from come become to peace with us by attacking slavery thats what the democrats hate. But lincoln has said theres no not a u true reunion until question get rid of slavery so democrats felt a simple story went to reunify the country and turn it into a war against slave is rei we hate reallies we hate abe a ham lincoln rewe resist this every bit but republicans say we have now seen that rejune i kaition they have to be destroyed so republican ares actually grow better before our eyes they are in favor of the 14th amendment and that i think whe see is that Abraham Lincoln is great. But unless he win it is doesnt mart and republicans at every level mobilize people who couldnt have cared less about africanamericans a few years before into now saying yes we believe that country requires their rights for us to be truly redeemed. So the story is changing that way. But what interesting to see in light of i about monument and so forth is that the memorialization begins as soon as the war or is over. And the white south begins by singing songs and writing poems about about stone wall jackson who is dead and robert ement lee who is not, and children stewing grave on flowers of the grave, and celebrating confederacy is war is over so they never go we were wrong. Its a terrible mistake. Instead they said we were overwhelmed but we were not wrong. Same town they march to the cemetery where Union Soldiers had fallen and put grief and american flags on their graves. So theres never a time where they said good game its all over with with and in pennsylvania, he says we see newspapers around country putting black borders and talking about what a great guy robert e. Lee wases but we refuse. He betrayed his country. If he had stayed with the United States, the war would not have gone on for so long and that we blame the deaths in the last wirnghts that have war the horrible winter of 64 and 65 lee if lee had said to his compatriots we have lost we should surrender, your son might not be dead. And then they said most relevant for current debate for the five years after the war, he with the right word would have helped reconcile the white south to what had happened instead he sat there silently being praise for not saying much but he should have said thing so final conclusion is we think that he should just be buried and had his deeds along with his body. So you know i think add to that the white working south slowly begins to come back together. And the white north says yeah, you fought a good war you were wrong but you know honorable brave, good soldier and white south said actually were glad slavery is gone especially now that were become in control of the black population an they come back and celebrate their military struggle and forget about everything underneath. And thats why you can have all of those statues in the south look the north says you lost the war. You control home. You can make statue if you want to. This is a question about grngt and so what was grants role in emancipation of slave or restoration of rights . How did grant respond in reconstruction, obviously, he became president and then in your book you also talk about it was grant who recognize ared that his military victories were decisive to election of the outcome of the war. Grant undergone grant reputation, and i was talking to some folks two days ago who from the north they said well with when we were in school, everybody sod that grant was a drunkard and butcher and robert e. Lee was gentleman, and a leader and now it has been flipped i think people look back and see that grant and lincoln won civil war they were the team that could do that. You think its true that lincoln certainly knew that if armies in field didnt win then they wouldnt at home. After the war grant had not been known as a particularly political person. And on the stake and had voted democrat before the war, but grant could see that so much of what had been won at such a cost would bees wasted if reconstruction were not seen through. Most important thing that grant did was he launched investigations in resistance to ku klux klan he merges in 1870 and 71 especially in south carolina. So grant does what he but imagine we talk about world war. Imagine you have to fight every white southerner all a across the south. With none of the power of surveillance or of radical declining number ofs l so soldier who cant communicate so pacifying the white south so pacify in modern world graduate i think did what he could. And i think hes seen in reconstruction as kind of coming in when the diving cast in some ways. Your book rebel soldier this valley are more considerate do you think this was true throughout nation or agree with that statement . People with say that. Thats what lee wanted the people of world to believe that were going to come in to pennsylvania and were going to walk up valley turnpike into chambersburg to pay for everything that we take. With our good confederate money, and [laughter] and then they have a Printing Press making a great show and theyre making a show merely of taking everything that they want and immediate not of destroying things. So that is the story that they confederates want to tell. The next year they come back into the town and burn it to the ground after demanding they pay 100,000 which the leaders and chamber thought they were. They the city fathers left with all of the money. So the confederates they pay us and we cant. We dont have any money. He said him sorry but we still need to burn this town. And they do. And then the newspaper of the south say we wish the entire valley were in flames. Okay so Confederate Army and, of course, the first time they come in main thing they do is round up every africanamerican enslave or put them into slavery and ship them back down south so thats a big exception. I do think that i think you watch over the course of the war i dont believe theres a big difference between way that confederates and federal soldiers act towards civilians and thing is all of this burning by standards of the 20th industry they consider women and children to be offbound compared to anything that would happen as early as world war i with civil war with is relatively constrained on that front. In the part where you talk about gettysburg you talk about the address briefly and this question is about what was lincoln referring to when he was four years ago and later you minced when he was talking about a new birth of freedom what did that mean to lincoln and what did whites at the time understand . Yeah. These are good hard questions talking ph. D. Exam and these are tough questions. Seven years ago talking about the declaration of independence, and the constitution that lee lincoln would have said his entire purpose was to defend the constitution. That was his whole argument for not allowing to be taken, and theres been a lot written about the gettysburg address, and the thing to remember are and people say why mention slavery . He minced slavery in things that he writes before and after about all of this. Hes actually trying to its kind of an allegheny bringing together two purposes of restoring the union and of bringing together a broader kind of freedom he recognizes that without the victory of the United States theres no hope for any kind of freedom for black people and white people. So i think that that lincoln believes that he is mainly cons consecrating live of men who buried there not a political speech but he believes what the Union Victory will actually bring to its true fruition of whafsz started in declaration of independence in the constitution that both of thosements were meant to point toward freedom but had not but had been pulled up short. Now they would have a chance to come to their true fruition. Earlier talking about the process by which the 14th amendment was ratified and the question is is, asked whether making ratification how did this affect how people maybe every day interpreted the legitimacy of the amendment and disease that continue to today . I would say that white southerners consider reconstruction tobogganed at rule. And consider illegitimate and overthrew them and consider that mississippi is the first new constitution 18 909 shows you honk there was between these things right, 2025 years and during that entire time, they were basically being nullified through practice if not by law. In mississippi when they write this they come together to rise a new constitution they say we have to because we cannot hand our sons responsibility for the state of mississippi with a shotgun many their hands and a lie in their mouths. So we have to change the constitution, so they dont have to intimidate black votes so we have to stop by ourselves from behaving inappropriately were going to have to change the law of the land to do that. So and they they felt syndicated but what hay consider to be constitutional. Do we have time for two more question withs. How is civil war perceived throughout the world i. E. In europe . You know, i dont think it takes anything away from the greatness of american nation to acknowledge we might not be here if it wasnt for the french who helped us in revolution so confederacy thought you know, france and england really need us. Were fighting for same right of selfdetermination that are are all over the world. And that they are supporting and places like that maybe, if they should support us and its it a disconcerting extent to have in the war and look in 62 and made it appear that the confederacy was a growing concern but main way that europe saw this was a disaster for suffering of a white population they saw it of human right trying to think what the real word is. Saw it as a word we use today but use all of the words in my head and possible but i think i had done that. That is wroish a crisis of suffering and try to end the war as soon as they can. So that as war proceeded and there were the cartoon against Abraham Lincoln were brutal in london. But after it became clear this was going to be a war that ends slaves rei and restore the United States and people grew especially after his death to very much admire Abraham Lincoln but the great confederate hope all along had been if we can do it Something Like say win a battle in pennsylvania then well be able to get the european nation behind us and will come to an end and confederacy will be able to exist and well have slavery and world will be restored to the way it should be. Okay so for the last question there have been a couple of about the monument i know you dont want to attack a particular stance, so i guess relating to what you said about how learning about the civil war, and you know how we got hire and how we are today will help inform about the monument what do you think it says now about this debate has been resurfacing recently and does it suggest maybe that we need to you know take a look at the civil war learn about it more you know, what do you think is going onsome [laughter] i think people should learn as much as they could about the civil war. [laughter] monuments in the south were put new a time i describe with you about these new constitutions in which it was unquestioned about who ran it shall and the monuments were a vindication of the earlier losses that so many of the men found to be a lost cause and there was a celebration of those men and of the of the returned power of white people. Today there is a greater equity in political power in the south and in the country, and its not surprising to me that when africanAmerican People have a chance to reconsider the public landscape they should say why are there monuments to people who try to perpetuate slavery and to separate from the United States what are we supposed to tell our children when we see these big statues . Its not surprising that this conversation would come to a subject. Nor is it bad. Should constantly thinking about how do we repght ourselfves to ourselves to our children and to the world, and so it was very convenient for a long time just ignore statues for them to allow them to fall silent. But i would say in the many conversations that i have a fundamental is generational young people whatever their ethnic background just dont get why statue should be there because they werent raised for robert e. Lee and no thinking about graduate either right. What are these why allow these legacies from the past to be haunting our presentsome those people say that statues are history you cant erase them. But they are man pessation it of a later period of history when they were revising thinking about history so what i would like people to do is generally the answer to address historical problemses is not less history but more. To think where are they here in richmond when robert e. Went up and newspaper on the city council said this is a monument to treason its not as if people didnt think this all along. Its that now theres an empowerment where they can say it is in public sphere. So i think that it is not an accident that were doing it now because we live in a time where people are thinking about concern you know what does it mean to memorialize certain parts of the american past. You know thats why i place black, with the Constitution Center is so essential. To be able to come to talk about not only purple monument to the foundsers and say well that was great. Thanks a lot but actually to talk about all of the challenges that we have still is every day. I see them as direct i would hope that we will find that we need to talk about these things and a way to connect with the past to recognize with all of the means that our command that we dont just have to have bronze statue but there are other ways maybe even all the way become to a digital archive that lays out all of these story and new ways for us to think about the past, new ways for us to touch the past and thats what we should be doing going forward. Great. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for coming and ed will be available briefly after the sign book outside o the museum store. Show me. Whoops thanks very much. Nonfiction books of 2017 according to bloomberg former reddit ceo details a fight against Tech Industry of women in reset, Pulitzer Prize winning historian reports are on the history of new york citys bellevue hospital. And jason recalls the life of Elizabeth Smith who o invent modern science of cryptology in woman who smashed codes in hit refresh, microsoft ceo weigh withs on reinvention and 2017 list Pulitzer Prize winning amy gold seen looks at community caused by closing of a gm plant in janesville. Two days before christmas of 2008 that this general motor os plant closed down, something is that was just unprecedented, and had this town and very hazard for people o get their heads around but this time was going to be different. And i knew that no place i was going to pick would be exactly like every place in the country. But as much as possible it seemed to me a good idea to pick a Community Many which the pattern of job losses matched the broad pattern of job losses in the great recession. So nationally jobs that didnt require much formal education that was surgery true of these autoa worker jobs. And many this broadly in janesville more women than men lost jobs but theres a sense that the kind of job loss that happened in the small wisconsin city was typical of the country. Bad appeal to me. I also had had a sense when i started to research this place that janesville fit nicely into the sweep of u. S. History and i met sam somebody else told me they should find a u Youtube Video of a speech that then senator barack obama can given in james plant in february of 2008 when he was campaigning to try toe win the wisconsin primary. And this was turned out a very big important economic speech in his campaign in which had he lays out his agenda and in that speech, he says two things that when i discovered speech on my just watching on my laptop in my own office at home it just gave me goose bumps he said first, basically if the country elected him until followed his economic prescription then this plant will be here for another 100 years. The other o thing he said was the promise of janesville is a promise of america. Many of these authorses have appeared on booktv. You can watch them online on our website, booktv. Org. There was a Correspondents Dinner or several years ago in which obama pretty much cruse ififthe president like a human roast did you see that . Yes i remember that. As you write for that you think that contributed . So that was in 2011 i had just started at the white house so john one the former white house speech writers also u now on pot save america he was our sorts of he was managing joke writing process from in house that year and he wrote those jokes about trump. My experience with it was kind of fitting in cheap seats in the back of the room and watching trump sort of the back of his head but you can see how red he was turn prg behind. And then you know weve all i think at this point seen him on the video of it and it is he goes inside himself in a strange and dark place and one with thing i will say is well thats the moment he decided to run but its not like president obama is just picking on some random person in the audience. Donald trump had been on this sort of birther tour for quite some time. So he clearly had gotten a taste for politics he had some sort of political ambition and i always think that what really would get trump in the moment and, obviously, speculation but i feel like speculating like our new National Past time so i will participate. To me it was this is an audience of hollywood selects media figures and washington politicians. And those are the people who donald trump has always craved approval of his entire life, and hes watching president obama gain their approval by roasting somebody who he feels has sort of acted wrongly to him so this was donald trump not just being the subject of humiliation but also watching his fantasy play out on stage. And i think that there was a sengs of envy and i think one of the reasons that hes so obsessed with president obama is that he became president and discovered just because youre the president doesnt mean that even loves you. You have to earn it. And, in fact, when youre the president you can did a good job and your friends still are frustrated with you. Thats you know trump hasnt learned that lesson. But i think hes beginning to realize that you know, i think theres had notion that he would walk into the white house and everybody would love him or at least everyone would pretend to love him and i dont think he draws distinction between the two and i think hes realizing in a democracy it is it the on is the that the peel who lovedout most are still beginning to be giving you a hard time. And you know, with i dont know that hes come to material requests that but i think it comes out in weird ways. You can watch this and other programs online at booktv. Org. Good evening. Im larry temple as chairman of the lbj foundation my true privilege to welcome all of you to this program tonight. I happen to think obj library is setting a pattern three weeks ago, we had two or stars on had this stage. Bob sheafer had a moderation the conversation with former