Transcripts For CSPAN2 In Depth Cornel West Robert George 20171203

Professor west has written many books including race matters and brother west. Professor george books include making men moral and conscience and the enemies. Host Robert George, when did you first meet the man sitting next to you . Mustve been in the 1990s, a little while after brother cornel came to princeton, and we were together in faculty, seminars a think under the auspices of the center for human values that we didnt know each other very well. We would just say hello. We interacted a a bit in the seminars. We began teaching together in 2007 and is a whole story behind that. I dont know if you want me to go into that kind of detail but thats what our Teaching Partnership and friendship really began to how did that Teaching Partnership began . Guest there was a brother named andrew. [talking over each other] he set up a a magazine i think called green here to his teaching my course on public election. He was taking a course from you, Civil Liberties, and asked me who i would like to have dialogue with, who was a conservative. I said theres someone i would love to have had a chance to engage in dialogue with, and its Robert George. So we got together. We had about a 45 minute dialogue based on the recording. The recording was over. Brother and to let their we to talk for at least two or three hours, walk back to the car and continue to talk and said weve got to continue this conversation. Weve been going now for 11, 12 years all about the country teaching at princeton, primarily adventures of ideas. But we had a a wonderful time. Ive learned so much from rutherford robbie and vice versa and his family, just magnificent hes been so good to me. My family. We just love to engage the subject matter pic we know the truth is bigger than others. And beauty certainly bigger than us but we quest for the we aspire to it. Guest ill tell you more about our meeting, our meeting to begin the Teaching Partnership. The green light magazine,. [talking over each other] f scott fitzgerald. Guest they wanted to have feature in each issue an interview of one professor by another professor. Andrew was a religious major, so for the very first issue they contacted brother cornel and said we would like you to do the interview. The would you like to interview . He kind of city life to interview me. So technically what that was was not a a conversation. It was an interview. It up almost being a very deep conversation. So andrew came to me then and said professor george, were starting a magazine. Would like to have an interview feature in each issue. Would like the first interview to feature cornel west as the interviewer. We told them they could interview anybody who wanted and he said he would like to interview you. Would you be willing . And i said andrew, let me get this straight. He said he could interview anybody he wanted and he said he would like to interview me . He said that right. I want you to send a message back to professor west. I want you to tell professor west that professor george says that it is isaac should be seeking baptism from you. [laughing] and a partially brother and it was a brilliant did not catch that reference. John the baptist, baptism of jesus in the jordan river. The he responded by saying what . I said just tell them that. Hell understand when talking about. He said okay, but we do it . Of course i will do it. We had that wonderful dialogue which was reported and then we went on and on and on after that all the way down to the car and im holding my hand on the car ledge for about half hour. And then just a couple of weeks after that we got the senior members of the faculty got a letter from the dean of the college, nancy, saying we want to encourage more of our senior faculty members to teach freshman seminars. We want more interaction between our top more established scholars and the freshman. So when i saw that letter and a request that we teach at the seminars, it occurred to me that what we should do is have that conversation that cornel and i were having with 16 wonderful, bright, enthusiastic princeton freshman. Host why only 16 . Guest thats princeton smolder there is a story behind that as well because once the word got out were going to be teaching this together, there was a big demand and had to read all the essays to see which particular 60 we would choose. Guest we decide we would not do that, just let the Registrars Office choose randomly. And in the Registrars Office decide that they would do it on a firstcome firstserved basis and students were supposed to sign up or they could start signing up at 7 00 by particular morning and, of course, at 7 00 that morning they crash the computer system. Thats true. Thats a beautiful thing about princeton. I think princeton [talking over each other] undergraduate education in terms of hands on 16 students, each senior bites a senior thesis, still focused very much on the undergrad, harvard, yale, berkeley, chicago, Howard University and other wonderful places but when it comes to highquality undergraduate education, princeton is number one i must say. Wider to come back . I love the others, too but i believe in the truth. Speaking the truth. Host weve invited you on to talk about your books but why havent you written a book together . Guest we talked about a lot and we have Harvard University press and princeton University Press are interested in having as do that for them. We both very much would like to do it. The trouble is you to really busy guys, a lot of responsibilities and obligations. Weve traveled around the country doing public dialogues in conversations and so forth. So we will get to it but we havent yet. Weve done some interviews together the we recently had one in, was at the Washington Times and the washington examiner, quite a lengthy one. Absolutely. Also in the princeton magazine trying one of the things you do in your book, professor george, the clash orthodoxies is you let other scholars to rebut you in your views. Guest thats how philosophy works. Thats a education works. Thats how learning works. Thats all scholarship proceeds. Especially not exclusively in the humanities and social sciences. We learn by giving an argument, providing reasons, producing evidence then letting a critic respond to that. This is how intellectual life in the western tradition, certainly the field of philosophy began with socrates engaging critics, subjecting their views to criticism and permitting them to subject his views to criticism. Cornel and i are old fashion socratic scholars. We both believe in that kind of education. Host and you both spent a lot of time talking up socrates and aristotle. Guest absolutely. Very much so. Harassments used to say think socrates, pray for me. He was christian. We understand the riches of the socratic legacy of athens tied to the prophetic legacy of jerusalem which is to say that self interrogation, self questioning of what the greeks called deep education, not cheap schooling that can transformative dialogue that makes is us examine our basic assumptions and presuppositions. Talk about this all the time. How do we learn how to die . You die when you give up a certain set of fixed assumptions and presuppositions and become more clear, more willing to grow and develop because youre learning how to live as you learn how to die, and education is very much a matter of trying to kill the prejudice can presupposition, the narrow dog, under ways in which you view the world and were to be expansive knowing you are still going to end up finite, fallible, endless progress, in this part of the building always in the name of which are after. Host would be fair to say your books are all about selfexamination and away . Guest but also the prophetic legacy of jerusalem because as a christian, its more than just selfexamination or its a matter of self surrendering, a matter of self empty, a matter of self givin. When jesus on that on the crost examining himself. Hes giving himself against emptying himself at the deepest level. Take this love and see what you can do with it because i love you so. So the what you actually get is socratic legacy of selfexamination but the legacies of jerusalem, judaism, christianity, mosul mizzen, islam and so forth is really one of self surrendering to something bigger than you so that you get that fusion of socratic selfexamination and prophetic witness here you cant love unless you take a risk. You cant love and lust your vulnerable. You cant love unless you do it, we try to do with what, given our disagreements we know as human beings, this person made in the image of god, that theres human so whatever the barriers are were going to find that overlook even as we honestly wrestle with the various issues that we fight over. Guest one of the point i make to our students is to render yourself capable of self surrender which as a christian i agree with cornel is our ultimate obligation and, indeed, fulfill it. Thats the great paradox of christianity that our fulfillment is in surrendering ourselves and being christlike. But i stress that to get there to the point where you are capable of that you need self mastery. You need to be able to control your own wayward desires, your own wants, your own passions, put them under the control of reason. Plato teaches us in a well ordered soul, reason is in charge, and appetite or passion is under the control of reason. When things are disordered, passion is in charge and reason is in specialized to the goal of creating rationalizations for activity that can only really harm us and others. How do we get to selfmastery . Heres were selfexamination, the examined life, liberal Arts Education comes in. We get to selfmastery by subjecting ourselves to criticism, interrogating our own assumptions, putting of the table even our most cherished, deepest, even identity forming beliefs. Thats the challenge because people dont want to do that. Its difficult for any of us to do that. We human beings being human, with ten to wrap our emotions about our convictions. Which is good in a way because if we didnt do that we would never be motivated to act for were the causes, for justice, for the common good, for human rights and dignity. And yet if we wrap our emotions to tightly around our convictions we become dogmatist dogmatists. We abandon any possibility of subjecting ourselves, our assumptions, our arguments to criticism. We become incapable of being what we should all aspire to be and that is interrogators of ourselves. Host in your book making men moral you write laws cannot make men moral, only men can do that and they can do that only by freely choosing to do the morally right thing for the right reason. Professor west, is that something you agree with . Guest absolutely, absolutely. I think what brother robbie is getting at is something so badly needed in our present day, because we live in this market of Society Obsessed with spectacle and image and position and money and status that you lose quality of character, quality of soul. We could call soul craft which have to do with the ways of being human you choose as relates to various virtues and as relates to various values. So in brother robby talks about moral character that something that the market cant teach. That something that being a professional cant teach you. Its something deeper going on. Its got to shape and mold you fundamentally about that self surrender. Its about love. Its about integrity, honesty, decency, generosity. We talk about selfmastery with regard to socrates. One of the Great Questions of western civilization is always why did socrates never cry . And jesus never laughed . Socrates never crying midhe put the primacy on selfmastery rightly so. But selfmastery is not the properly response to your mothers funeral. Tears proper response. Because you love them. Jesus wept because he loved. Socrates never cries. So theres a love for wisdom and thats important but you got to out soccer ties socrates and make a way to jerusalem. Jerusalem begins with just the two zepeda people, a persecuted people, that pictures of enslae people. Of jews these of the pharaoh and jesus weeps for jerusalem picky weeks precisely because he loves so the selfmastery as a role but its not enough. Self surrender, thats where the tears come because tears shatters the numbness inside of ones partner shatters calluses, indifference and lets window lo and behold, you are human being like everybody else. You are calling for help like everybody else. And as you know brother because you attend black churches and congratulatory phase of work in this magnificent place, but would you go to those black churches the best of those black churches is what . We are a people who have been hated for 400 years but we are teaching the world so much about how to love. John cole trained love supreme, Martin Luther king, that is highquality soul craft. Brother robbie, leaked in his own weight in his own tradition to that. I victim it on ways of them tradition even given our disagreements. Host . Guest trade try to any humn think ultimate faces a question whats the point of my life . Whats worth living . Whats worth doing x its worthwhile . Now, every human being is going to be in a certain culture, going to be formed by that, but how to act in the context of that culture, is going to have to react to what is coming at him or her in that culture. And for just about every human being there are going to be powerful temptations, because its easy to believe. In fact, we live in a culture that reinforces our beliefs that whats worth living for his status, prestige, social standing, well, power wealth. Those are not in themselves bad things and its a mistake to condemn those if they are bad in themselves. Well isnt that innocent. Power isnt bad in itself it depends on how you use those things. But to make them whats fundamental, to make them the ultimate goal is to fail to see what human life is really all about. And what is worthwhile in human life. This is our mission ourselves and for our students, to make people understand that integrity, honor, decency, these are what are truly fundamental. These are what make life worth living. This is what we should aspire to. Not in itself for their own sakes wealth or glory or power or influence or status or social standing. Thats a big challenge for young men and women who are super high achievers. Weve been left to teach those kinds of students our entire lives in place like princeton and harvard. Though students are going somewhere and it got big futures in investment banking, as lawyers, in medicine of the field and they can do a lot of good in all of those fields but they really taste powerful temptations to believe that it is standing in status, influence, power, wealth, being looked up to by other people that is what really matters. And you really havent gotten it there and nobody is finally there to our entire lives but you havent even gotten close to being there until youve got the strength of character, the selfmastery to be willing for the sake of what try, whats good and sacrifice it all. You try telling a princeton student or a harvard student or a william student or really any student these days in this culture, you might be called on to give all that up, to stand up for what you believe in. You may arrive at if you are truly openminded, if are truly going to listen or engage you will arrive at a set of opinions that mark you as an outsider, as a bad guy, a somebody to be rejected. Now are you going to have integrity to stand for that, knowing that it could cost you professionally in terms of further education, social standing, your friends and things like that . When we think back to socrates, cornel and i, we remember how he died. Guest the hemlock. Guest the make and drink the hemlock. He was a martyr. Guest died for his fellow citizens. Guest he refused to go sign on the truth even when the truth was unpopular. He did want to hear in depth line 24 a, it was because of my unpopularity. Fearless speech, and intimidated speech. A plain speech and it can get you into trouble. Brother robbie gets a lot of deeper trouble. I do. Guest just hanging out with me. A lot of trouble. But in addition to that, that hes willing to deal with unpopularity based on his own commitment to is understanding what it is to be a person of integrity. And i try to do that within my own progressive circles as well because its not a question of popularity. We recheck the chains of conformity. We want to be nonconformist. We want to be in the world and not of the world. We want to be over against the world. We want to be tied to a kingdom that is so much greater and grander than, this is what i learned at Shiloh Baptist church, the kingdom of god is within you, then everywhere you go you want to leave a Little Heaven behind. That kingdom of god means what, in this world the world of cruelty, domination, oppressi, hatred, resentment, that the dominant ways of the world. What you going to do now that you are in a . How are you going to come to terms with it . Be a nonconformist. Not out of selfrighteousness. We try to keep each other accountable because you can always fade into a selfrighteousness and not acknowledge yourself critical character of your own stand. We tend to be tribal, and tribalism today is a big problem. Guest all around the world and in our culture. People expect you to play for the team, but if your own convictions, your own reflections, your own inquiries lead you to a view that puts you outside the team on this one, and you publicly dissent or you can be in very big trouble. That is true whether youre progressive like cornel, a conservative like me, in the most recent president ial campaign. I could not in the end bring myself to vote for donald trump. I disregarded as morally unfit to be president of the United States. I dont want to litigate that here, im just using this as an example. And because i wouldnt play for the team, i got a lot of heat from the team. You want to elect Hillary Clinton. I opposed her, too. I saw her of anything worse than donald trump that got a lot of pushback from other people but cornel fan fetisov in the same position. When he refused to support Hillary Clinton after she had gotten the nomination, and supported Bernie Sanders. He got the same heat i i was getting on the conservative side from the progressives, from the left but he wouldnt yield. He wouldnt say okay, im going to stay silent on this for the team. Host between the two of your family times have you been arrested . Guest arrested . Hes that the jail door. Im not. I have offered i dont have a to bail you out. Thats true. The last time, was it down in ferguson i think it was. Maybe st. Louis or whatever it was that i got a call from her father, how much money do you need . He knows im broke as a [laughing] financially sometimes but thats just the kind of love and respect and support that he has. Ill tell you a wonderful story about this. When cornel, was a 2016 i believe, i i was being sworn in as chairman and he had States Commission on International Religious freedom. I had served on the commission and was elected chairman. So i was being sworn in as chairman by chief Justice John Roberts at the Supreme Court. So i asked brother cornel if he would do me the honor of holding the bible for me not just any bible. Guest thats true. We got the wonderful people at the upstate new york. Guest somewhere up there, yeah. But this bible is a special bible. It was Harriet Tubman bible, Harriet Tubman house. The wonderful people there gave us the bible, great, big, beautiful bible. I can imagine what that would have cost a poor woman in her time, an exslave with no money to purchase that bible. Plus it tells you something about her faith and how she must have treasured the bible. In any event they gave us the bible alone for cornel to open i was being sworn in a chief Justice Roberts chambers by the chief justice. As we were walking the steps in front of the Supreme Court to go into the building, im walking with brother cornel, and as we walked past a couple of police officers, security, i see one of them catch cornel i and the two of them, cornel and the officer stared at each other from a up and give each other a little head nod and we continue walking. I turned to brother cornel and i said what was that all about . He said brother robbie, this is the first time ive ever been to the Supreme Court when i was in here to get arrested and that the officer who arrested me. Via just arrested me two weeks earlier. [laughing] that was on Martin Luther king day we went to jail i think to pick at wall street or something tragic chief Justice Roberts was so gracious. That was a magnificent, magnificent moment. Host there is a new 25th edition out of your bestselling book race matters and in the new introduction to that book cornel west, youre right within one of the darkest moments in American History, a bleak time of spiritual blackout antiimperial meltdown. Guest yeah, that spiritual blackout, i mean the eclipse of integrity, honesty, decency. I mean that we have normalized mendacity which is to say we have made lies in normal way of life and will naturalize criminality which is a weve made crimes look as if they are natural, it could be drone strikes, it could be wall street, engage in predatory lending or market manipulation. None of them go to jail. It could be so many different ways in which pupils humanities is violated. What we need is i call for prophetic fight back. Because in a moment of spiritual blackout, its not just a political issue. Its a moral and a spiritual issue as well here its only by example, we need you and people disabled, conservative or other, progressive brother, still of love, respect, willing to fight, willing to disagree. Not in abstract, by example. They want to see sermons. They just dont want to houston. Why . Because right now the dominant soul craft an american empire is a neoliberal soul craft. Smartness, smartness comes smartness. How many times a year you hear the word on television, obvious obvious obvious. Obviously this, obviously that. Thats a word for the incredibly sure that they are part of the smart crowd. Brother robbie and i we dont believe in smartness in this isolation we believe in wisdom at its deepest level. Smartness is tied to richness. Theres no accident donald trump believes hes really the smartness in the room and the riches in the room. Thats just the sight of his spiritual emptiness but hes a sign in symptom of a society that is idolized smartness and richness. We wont even talk about bombs. Barack obama dropped he got the nobel peace prize. Guest five times as many drone strikes with george bush got 45 contracts. He got five and six but he won the nobel peace prize. What happens is the spectacle can hide and conceal what real substance is when it comes to around and spirituality. This is what breaks to ideology, not just right rightwing, lef, center. Its moral and spiritual substances always substances always deeper than any political ideologies. What im trying to say in this introduction is we are in catastrophic time. Nuclear catastrophe, moral catastrophe or just survival of the slickest and the smartest. Theres also economic catastrophe. Inequality, the top three individuals three brothers have wealth equivalent to 50 of our fellow citizens. This is grotesque. This looks like the louis the 14th times. Now of course we have tax bill now. Welltodo off heightening the benefits of the poor. Wait a minute as christians we say what do you do to the least of these you do unto others, the orphan, the widow, the fatherless, the poor, the end of it, the muslim, the jew, a black, Indigenous People, gay lesbian come so forth and so on. Thats a moral and spiritual orientation. So the book is very much about where i was 25 years after i wrote the book in 93 and times are bleaker, spiritual and morally. Host do you agree with it . Guest i agree with the basic thrust of it. We disagree with things about market, whether any point in itself is bad. I think our problem is not the market economy. I believe in the market economy. I think it is lifted millions out of poverty. My critique is that weve traded in a true market economy for our kind of crony capitalism where big and powerful firms can use government, to use Big Government to regulate competitors off the field. Big firms cant afford the price of regulation. Sometimes welcome that because they know small upstart competitors cannot. When it comes to economic equality i do not mind it. I think in a just system that will be economic inequality. I dont have as a go economic equality i have as a goal equality and dignity, the equality of the declaration of independence what it says all men are created equal, we are all of equal worth it but i chose a career as an academic. I know thats not a high paying particularly highpaying field. I could have gone to law school. I wouldve made a lot more money. I couldve gone to Business School and made a lot more money than that because generally lawyers work for people to make more money than they do. So i dont have any problem with, as long as its fair i made any problem with people having even a lot more money than other people. My worry is not for the quality of economic equality. My worry is for opportunities to my big worry about our society is where losing and have to a considerable extent lost the prospects of upward mobility for awful lot of our fellow citizens. I grew up in West Virginia in central appalachia. I remain close to people there my entire family is still back to get my parents are there. My brothers are there. All of my family, my high school friends, some of my friends and relatives argue. This was donald trump country. Why . Because they are feeling the effects of being neglected, of being left behind, economically, culturally. They feel without bigotry or prejudice, but certainly on the basis of their own experience as if there is a cultural elite, a wealthy powerful cultural elite that is only its own interests in mind. Not the interests of working people in place like central appalachia, and you are nothing but contempt for the values of people in central appalachia. Those were trump buddhist or im not of these guys who condemns trump voters. Im not a fan of the trumpet i wasnt from the beginning and ill give him credit for some good things hes done, still criticize them for some bad things hes done but i think its a mistake to imagine that those supporters of donald trump are just racists and bigots and horrible people. They had legitimate grievances which no need the party, the establishment of Neither Party responded to. Donald trump reached out to them. Whether they were wise to look to them as their treatment thats another, we can debate the i have debate that with my relatives and friends in West Virginia, but he noticed those people were forgotten, were left behind, or look down on held in contempt, war was waged under economy and he benefited. Host cornel west, do you agree with what you say about the trump voters . Guest they are diverse lot. Hes got a slice of them who are, in fact, xenophobic and racist and sexist and misogynist and homophobic, but that doesnt exhaust the whole brother robbie acknowledges theres a racist sleight of trump voters. These arrows use sticking out of it, a come from the altright. Im considered one of the great seconds. Guest but theres also a slice of trump voters who had voted for burn it into a devoted for obama. So you had have to keep track f that diversity. You never want to downplay the role of the vicious legacy of White Supremacy in the country. Theres no doubt about that but because its a vicious you cant allow it to be the only thing you see. You get this out of some of the other younger black intellectuals these days all you can see is white supremacist, White Supremacy is always link to something else, link to predatory capitalism, link to slavery, link to jim crow, link to patriarchy, link to homophobia, its also link to empire. You can of black and white soldiers come together and go to the philippines and treat the philippines like they cockroaches and they are american because you have an empire. You have to be very honest in telling the truth. Brother robbie and i said look, trump voters, lets tell the truth of who the other they are a heterogeneous lot. Many of them were suffering under neoliberal policies under barack obama the top 1 got 95 of the income growth. I find that to be morally grotesque. I dont agree wholesale economic equality but i want a floor. I want to focus on poverty. Would focus on we agree with that because hes a conservative. Deeply concerned about trying to ensure that poverty is a tactic is been trying to do it conservative. I tried it with barack obama and the others. The Democratic Party has had only to concern about four people. They been tied to wall street and type two upward mobility for the professional middle classes. When it comes to working people who are poor or p people not working at all, theyve been very little to say other than some movement on healthcare and thats a marketdriven Healthcare Program coming out of the Heritage Foundation established by mitt romney. Mitt Romney Mormon brother saluting he is not known for being on the cutting edge of fighting against poverty. But hes somebody who in the Republican Party did some very decent things with regard to health care. Thats where that Healthcare Program comes from and we want to be very honest about that let us try to tell the truth. Both of our parties, deeply narrow when he comes to these issues of poverty. Jack kemp and the others putting pressure on the Republican Party. The legacy of martin marking pg pressure on the Democratic Party. The other side of this thing which everybody has to be honest about is the marketdriven Corporate Media that made donald trump the sake of entertainment where they make big, big, big money. One of the ceos made it very clear. Donald trump is that for the country, good for us. Why is it good for you . Revenues. Ratings. They followed every speech, and we twitter. My dear brother Bernie Sanders delhi 20 seconds for every 30 minutes that donald trump got. Why not have equal treatment . Its marketdriven even in the media. And god for cspan. Can you imagine what the quality of public dialogue would be in this country without cspan . If it depends just a Corporate Media, fivefold, msnbc, its Propaganda Machines. One of conservative Propaganda Machine to the other neoliberal. Their kind enough to invite us on the web dialogue with them but we know, you are not going to get the most balanced you out of sean hannity or the most fallacy out of chris hayes. Heather own agendas. You cant just promote your agenda. He got to be mentioning the truth, mention something bigger than your own agenda. Thats how democracy this is highly relevant in education as well, especially Higher Education but really k12 through Higher Education. Youve got to tell the truth began to tell [talking over each other] too often one extreme whitewashes American History, so you take out the unsavory and speedy Indigenous People, slavery, jim crow, the Labor Movement turned to the other side tells an equally false history that this is the whole story of the American Experience is slavery, White Supremacy, imperialism and so forth. Leaving many of our young people to reject the foundational principles of america which are really what do you make the country great. Whats exceptional about america . We are human beings like of human beings get we are made of flesh and bread. We are dust of the earth but also made in their image and likeness of god. Its not us as human beings who are exceptional. Its the principles on which the country rests, the principle which were founded. That it is taken a long time for us to live up to and we still dont live up to them fully and would probably never will fully live up to them because their high aspiration principles that are captured in that wonderful, we heard so often becomes a a cliche but we really need to stop and listen to these words, we hold these truths to be selfevident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by the grid with certain unalienable rights that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. A nation founded on that principle has the potential for greatness. And we need to communicate that to our young people. We need to tell the truth. Yes but not imagined history is nothing but courts. When Martin Luther king appealed to the American People he did not take a french revolutionary attitude that we need to tear down everything that came before it because its corrupt and evil. We need to build something new that would also never seen before. No, no, no. Martin luther king looked back to the american founding, despite the fact the man who wrote the words i quit was a slaveholder. That did not stop him from looking back to the american founding and saying the principal is right and good, now lets live up to the principal. Our founders wrote a check, lets cash the check, make good on the check. Thats what we need to do, call people back to our founding principles, we want to get your reaction to the professor west in a minute but first want to welcome our views. This is a monthly in Depth Program where we invite one author on to talk about his or her body of work. This month its a unique situation. We have professors Robert George and cornel west who for years taught class together at princeton your cornel west has returned to harvard. Robert george remains at princeton. Here is the way you can interact with these two. Translator if you live in east and central time zones. 2027488201 for those of you in the mountain pacific. He cant get to on the phone lines and make a comment several ways via social media including twitter, booktv, are a Facebook Page youll see a video of these two together and you can make a comment right under there, they. Com booktv. Instagram booktv and finally email, booktv at cspan dot board. Very quickly we want to do show you a few of the books that these two have written beginning with cornel west, new 25th addition out brandnew of his bestseller race matters becomes originally published in 1993. Democracy matters came out in 2004. Brother west, his autobiography came out in 2009 and his most recent book is black prophetic fire 2014. Robert george a a couple of his books. Making men moral 1995, the clash of orthodoxies 2001. Conscience and the enemies 2013, and one of his most recent books, what marriage is and why it matters. We will begin taking those phone calls in just a minute. Professor west, your reaction to what Robert George was saying just a minute ago . Guest brother robbie is committed to telling the truth and the condition of truth is always to allow suffering to speak. If we tell the truth about america, looking at a book of the day by the great denard the photo called the pulse of empires published in the 1950s and he makes a point of course that the United States and the colonial enterprise like canada, new zealand, liberia, like israel, and host of efforts of people who are escaping of the conditions to arrive on a land anderson of the people there. You have to decide do you coexist, to dominate, the subordinate, do you engage in genocidal assault or whatever . At the United States was distinct about the United States as a subtle of Columbia Society was it was a successful revolutionary effort to overthrow the empire from which it came, the fight against the george the third with the granted to the brother robbie was talking about. Those ideals have universal implications but they still have these very ugly realities. You can have slavery. You then have white men who cant vote who dont have property. Uf women in patriarchal households. Youve got gay brothers and lesbians and others who are marginalized, get by appealing to those ideals, in the context of the u. S. Social experiment weve been able to make some significant progress. How do you stay in contact with humanity of Indigenous People . Like peoples, women, gays, lesbians, working people, mexicans and so forth and so on. At the same time we have a long way to go, no doubt about that, but its a matter of trying to tell the truth so we can understand what are the impediments, what are the major obstacles. I think one of the things brother robbie and i wrestle with because he defends the market economy in the right form. Hes not for chronic capitalism. He suffer any kind of reckless laissezfaire apples begin to stance theres needful regulations. Is that fair . Fundamentally for regulations. I believe in market economies in history of this nation we resulted in monopolies and oligopolies. The robber barons of the 1890s, the financial elites today who have a disproportionate amount of power and influence with very little democratic accountability. So that the market economy i can agree with to the degree to which its got these thick regulations that doesnt allow for ways in which persons are thoroughly unaccountable. That has nothing to do with trashing them. We got brother harlan crow who is our dear brother, i was just within this week, had a debate with Alan Dershowitz on the palestinian question, media. Harlan crow was one of the finest human beings you ever meet. Theres just no doubt about that. No doubt about that. Were not talking about the caregiver particular individual. Theres of the friends of his who have much less moral character than he does. Rich, because whatever but its the structure that we are talking about because oligopolies and monopolies do not lend themselves to democratic accountabilities to sustain democracy. Host but didnt you just put everybody in a tried and talk about some of the isms that you both decry although the earlier . Is that a fair statement . Guest will be talk about class were talking about the ways in which various forms of power are used and to play. You still can keep track of the community as individuals, for example, there are certain individuals who are poor, who choose immoral ways a link in the world. Theres middleclass people who choose immoral ways. Theres welltodo people who choose immoral ways. We are talking about character, what kinds of choices people make. But the structures that are in place are not reducible just to the character. Structures have to be confronted as structures. See you can have the most benevolent class of slaveholders in the world and slavery is still evil. Because the structure of slavery is evil. We understand slavery to be as a structure evil. So in essence we dont want to reduce structures to individual characters. Characters can choose and those choices of moral weight, they have ethical residents. Theres no doubt about it but its a matter keeping track of the structures. Part of the fascinating kind of conversation brother robbie and i have is trying to do with this complex dialect interplay between structures and individuals, structures and persons as it were. Talk about making human beings moral. If you work on a slaveholder to become more moral without an indictment of slavery, its still not enough. You would agree with that . I agree. I have two points to make. The first is i think the last thing we want on my t3 about this but the last thing we want is the socialization, a government control and ownership of the means of production. I see that as a high road to tyranny. Thats what i rejected the socialism treasure my type of democratic socialism has a crucible for the private sector. That seems to me to be very critical for the second thing is why do believe that markets the directly there should be something so not for sale. Guest i agree. Market values and a place for nonmarket values to you dont want market values invading nonmarket familiar for example, relationships. When it comes to regulation, this is a very tricky area. I want to minimize regulation. I think the only regulations we should have regulations that a e necessary but the Army Regulations that are necessary. If we over regulate we defeat our very purpose. Because what we do is we empower Large Enterprises who can use regulatory obstacles to prevent smaller competitors from getting into the competition. So you need wise regulation. Wise regulation will let the market operate to the extent that the market can operate fairly and without exploitation and without undermining institutions like the family that are not built on market principles. I think when we do that then we do liberate the market to benefit especially less well off people. Thats what creates the social mobility, the Economic Opportunity that allows people to rise which of course is the greatest aspect of the american story when you think about it. How many people have come from other lands as immigrants to this country with nothing, short on their backs, and they become wealthy . I would also want to point out theres nothing wrong with being rich in itself. Depending on how you became rich. Steal the resources. Guest but think of how many people in this country are the children or grandchildren or perhaps themselves immigrants who did really, with nothing or very little, and through hard work, initiative, a willingness to take risk, have quite great wealth. Then they can be them have become generous benefactors to every worthy cause, to the cause of justice, the cause of human health, to the cause of education. Princeton and harvard are profoundly dependent on the generosity of people who have a great deal of money for. [talking over each other] but philanthropy is not justice. Its a force for good. Guest and it means they are go right ahead. Guest it means their powers and is outside the control of government and thats important. But the problem is if, for example, we agreed that its crony capitalism, its predatory capitalism and then there is no regulation, then the week and the vulnerable are really crushed. Guest exactly right. The way to beat that is to empower the competitors. Its to make the market work. Its not to do with the market or undermine the marketer is to empower competitors to compete. I would say more than that. The crucial robot to restrict not just monopolies and oligopolies but those new upstarts trying to gain a foothold in the market. But the other crucial countervailing force is organized labor. Even given is possible of corruption, if workers have no say in the workplace, then for the most part, theyre not going to be treated right. Weve seen this in your beloved West Virginia. If it were not for those unions in the minds they would be crushing those russias brothers of all colors like i dont know. Guest thats a very legitimate point but its something the correction of labor [talking over each other] corruption cuts across gender, color, gender, nation. We have to have some kind of treachery this fall i just finished teaching seminar with the collie, wonderful scholar where we look at law in light of the teaching of the modern popes going back to louis the 13th, the tradition was called catholic social thought one of the things that struck me in reading through these documents again in 1891 all the way up to the encyclical on the 100th anniversary, Pope John Paul ii is popes are trying to find a way to avoid the errors on the one side of socialism and government control of the means of production and the destruction of liberty that comes from the. Thats in one sector then on the other side the kind of capitalism that creates plutocracy, where people can use wealth to squeeze out competitors to get control of an Economic Situation so that they can engage in exploitation. One of the things that the popes urge is trying to find ways for workers to participate not only in the management of businesses where our voices are heard which will benefit businesses as well as workers themselves but also find ways that workers can it equity participation especially in larger firms. I think that is a very good direction to try to go in. When workers are part owners of firms, second only benefit the firm and it certainly benefits the workers. I would much rather see us move in that direction than government control, that a socialist direction. This is where we learn from our scandinavian brothers and sisters, norway, the great legacy that goes with norway, the same within them and others where youve actually got workers on the board. So in fundamental decisions are made regarding the destiny of the enterprise, the workers voices have some weight, they have some substance. Michael harrington and the others tried to push that in the 1980s and it didnt go too far. But i think right now were we g in a moment of which there is crony capitalism, that is an oligopoly, a monopoly that 20 thinks. But its shifted. Its no longer a show based. Its banking and technology. Google, facebook, firms like this. [talking over each other] guest very intimate relation. Go ahead. I was just thinking of the Civil Liberties problems that are created when you have essentially a kind of new Public Square in the form of, platforms like facebook where people should be able to interact freely that its a private profit business which is fine. I have no problem with that. And yet it facebook can exercise a lot of control over what is said, if you can engage in censorship than how far have we really a monopoly or oligopoly has now placed itself in a position functionally of government exercising censorship and i know there are a lot of conservatives who are now very concerned, very worried about cases in which the conservative point of view has been censored from places like facebook. Its probably happening to people of the perfect is as well. I am much more likely to from conservatives at the seams be a genuine worry if you have case a monopoly or if every two to competitive market place take care of themselves. Business will gravitate to where the free flow of information can occur. But we dont have that with firms like google and facebook and so forth. You have monopoly oligopoly. I think theyll be a challenge for host look, its almost, its nearly impossible for radical voices to have a deep rooted and telecoms to the Public Square, which is very much driven by these private companies. And thats going to be a problem. Why . One of the fundamental questions, a great question, how do you bequeath to the Younger Generation the best visions, examples of courage, individual to the Younger Generation . Because without those milestones in the past, without as connecting to the milestones of the past, all they have to go on is the chaos of the present. The present is all about money, spectacle, status. Thats the neoliberal craft. I say neoliberal because its not just political. Its spiritual, moral. And intelligent people the end and aim of life is to be successful in terms of material wealth, power and military might that says very little about greatness in terms of the quality of their spirit and the quality of their moral character. And that is the death now ive been a civilization. Because no civilization can survive come to lose its site of the rich examples of those who came before, bequeathed to them and more and spiritual heritage here not just a great example of success when it comes to money, status and power. Can i say what about this . This is a point of which i fundament agree with cornel. Let me put it this way. Weve got a wonderful form of government. Our constitutional system, and madisonian system, has shown that you can make the republic worker that was an open question in 1776 and 1789 in 1791 what republican governor could work. Itd been tried before engage in world, in the medieval and renaissance worlds. It failed. Weve got a wonderful system of republican government. We had a wonderful constitutional system. Id like us to be more faithful to it. I think we often deviate it when we shouldnt have. Guest [talking over each other] we have a great system. I think the market system is a good system. If we can push up the crony capitalism and really get a market to work as a competitive thing so that we get the benefits of better goods and services at lower prices. The market does its work at reducing cost thats a good thing. But in the long run you cannot sustain either the republican government or the market economy, great benefits to our people, if you do not have a moral foundation. And that moral foundation doesnt just happen. That spiritual formation, that moral formation, that sound understanding of what matters in life, what it means to be human thing, what our obligations to others are, the market will not produce that. Nor will the system of governance do that. It will be produced, it will be by the family. The institutions of Civil Society, of religion and neighborhood and civic association, that assist the family in its role as the basic transmitter of values, of character to each new generation. And we need to protect those institutions of society because beginning with the family, they really are the primordial department of health, education welfare. They do more than just type of the kids and get the bed and off to school and so forth. They formed as a kinds of human beings they will be. Thats what i mean by being transmitters of values. So look, the economy, the mart system, and our republican form of government both the demand on something that neither can produce, and that is recently virtuous, decent, honorable citizens. Your talking about persons who have been shaped by what the icily brothers call the caravan of love. The love of truth, the love of justice, the love of neighbor, and as Christian Wes love our enemies but dont try that on your own. And for those i grant theres a whole owes after athiests and agnostic brothers and sisters who have great spirituality and moral charity, sometimes more than christians. I know people with great integrate who dont believe in god. As a christian myself, i know that i cannot preserve my sanity without grewing myself as part of people who taught the world about love. What would have happened to the United States if instead of frederick dougless and Harriet Tubman you had black versions of the klan. What would happen to america if in the 1960s you didnt have Martin Luther king, jr. But had a black version of the clapp. When the called the four girls in birmingham, the response is to kill four white girls on the vanilla side of up to. It was spiritual and moral character of black people that constituted the leaven for the American Democratic loaf. Would have been a wore of the generations. With we had black version of isis in america, there would be no american democracy because you cant keep track of all of them. It was a moral, spiritual tradition that produced irene cliff, brother cliff, my sister, sheryl, lord riley when i was little and a gangster. I say i was a gangster for jeh jesus. And i need people to keep in the in place. Right wing, left wing, whatever it. My loved ones. The important thing is, the point is the linchpin. If you lose that moral and spiritual heritage and its a war against all, and for triumphs over socrates. Might makes right. Tremendous violence as opposed to a love of justice, a dialogue of democracy, and a attempt at some kind of civilized society. And were reaching the point where were running out of gas. Rear oning out of spiritual and moral gas in the United States. In the 40s and 50s and 6 odd sit was at forgone conclusion that the way forward that africanamericans would adopt would be the peaceful one of Martin Luther king, i thats true. Muhammad, the early malcolm x before this conversion to an orthodox version of islam, and many others in another direction, more radical, vie dent had the soldiers coming back from fighting a thug hitler, and their come back to racism in america and jim crow. Well know the story about the double vic, victory, racism in europe, racism in america. We crushed the thugs in europe. We come back home and these black soldiers, treated like second class citizens, all of them. In uniform. What made that possible, i want to suggest, what made it possible for africanamericans to opt for the part of martin was they black church. That culture that processed irene and cliffton west was sustained by the black church over decades and centuries of slavery and jim crow and depression, and i think people these days forget that. They forget the role that the black church played in sustaining africanamericans and making it possible for us to make the progress that we have made, and as much credit as Martin Luther king deserves, its not just Martin Luther king. Its not something that happened starting in 1961 or 1959 or 1965. This was sustained over generations. Nowed a one footnote, where we get to the music, because i think the black musical tradition is one of the, if not the greatest tradition in the modern world of moral and spiritual fortitude. By fortitude i mean diffusion of courage and mag nationality, encouraging greatness of character, you can have a nazi soldier who is courageous and still a character. The music that came out of the black church, the ray charles and the Aretha Franklins frankld marvin gayes, they were no longer christians but the music they were prewitting had the love ethic that kept track of the humanity of others. Like James Baldwin who leaves the church but the love never leaves him, and the black music played a fundmental role in humanizing our relations with each other, much of it rooted in the black church but always tied to the dogma of the black church. John colltrain doesnt fit in the christian dogma but fits in the christian love and that has played a crucial roll in allowing vanilla brothers and sisters to say, lo and behold, these people have an intelligence that the creativity, imagination, and a genius that speaks to my soul, so White Supremacy might be alive, enthough its alight, might be a lie. You hear this brother played the guitar. He players serious guitar. Brother robert can play some guitar and understands the role of music that flows from the church, but also flowed out of the church, about that love ethic is still informing that you get bruce springsteen, a blue vanilla brother to the core. Connected to the black church to degree to which the black music rooted in what he does from the white site of town and doing it in his own way. Fascinating relation to the spiritual stuff that we need in order to go forward. In your auto buying aography, brother west you refer to yourself frequently as plusesman. What does that mean. Aim a bluesman, blues person whose personal narrative is shot through with catastrophe but engage inside spiritual expression of that catastrophe and doesnt allow hatred to have the lost word. B. B. King says nobody loves me but my mama and she might be driving, too. How does the responsibility to catastrophe . With a smile, with style, with compassion, with his soul, emptying himself to connect to other peoples soul, even when he is playing his guitar with lucille, he is connecting on a human level to his audience, whatever color they are, but come out of gut bucket, jim crow, mississippi genius, saying, theres love ethic will not be stopped, mediated with his guitar and you can heart robert johnson, bessie smith. The tradition. You can talk about b. B. King, dolly parker, stevie wonder, whoever, and the role of music i believe that the artists are the vanguard of the species in and that the musicians are the vanguard of the artist. When your music gets come modified. Markettizeed and no longer has moral and spiritual substance like so much music today, you know the spiritual crisis is intensified. We have spent an hour talk and well get our callers involved. Is this at all similar to what your classes were like . The difference is usually have a text. We have the boys over over. [overlapping speakers] a character in platos republic. We have text that were bouncing off. Right now we have each other and yourself, thank god. But in a classroom, we have to deal with subject matter. How much would this have cost to taped this class attend this class. Princeton and harvard, the tuition fees are well over 60,000. But because of generous donors to the universities universitieg en. Coms have the have been able to endowments they have been able to build, there are very generous football aide packages so large percentages of our student is believe now were well over a majority, at princeton, i believe true at harvard, are receive something Financial Aid and many, many of them are receiving large Financial Aid packages. I think a fair number of cases, it ends up being cheaper for a student to go to harvard or princeton than to go to his Home State University because of the generous Financial Aid that is available. The problem is that there are limited number of spaces at these universities, and the competition for one of those space is is extremely intense, so places like princeton and harvard are only admitting 5. 1 . Of the students who apply. Host as notable professors on these campuses, are you encouraged to fundraise . Not really. Host no, generally not. I began becoming a fundraiser and am one now. When princeton authorized me to found a program called the James Madison program in american ideals and institutions, that wag back in 2000 so were in the 17th year, and this is a program brother Cornell Cornell was a brother of our program the year before last. This center, this program, builds on princetons historic strength in areas like political philosophy. Constitutional law, American History to try tone reich the students understanding of american ideals and institutionses and the broader civilizational structures that made possible the american founding. Now, because when i founded the Madison Program, the University Made clear that while they would assist with fundraising, we would not be given an annual allocation of money from the universitys central account. I have to rates the money each year for the program, and were now up to over 2 million annual budget. So i have to be out there raising the money. Our Development Office is very helpful at princeton. Ive very grateful to then helping me. We have some generous alumni, foundations who support us. So because of that particular unusual circumstance for me, i have become a fundraiser, but princeton but purr me to do that. I wanted to do something. I wanted to do something new. I wanted to introduce as a model i hope for other universities, a program that would enrich our students understanding 0 basic american constitutional and moral principles and that ended up making me a fundraiser. I met a lot of wonderful people this way. Its a burden, but youre charm helps facilitate the relationships. Ive been very blessed to be a fellow. Just for the audience, hes got fellows who dont have economic support. I was part of the fellow because i was teaching in the freshman seminar and he was open in enough to jointly support the seminar. You got some fellows who receive Financial Support who just glad to be. The im glad to be there. Im just in there for the dialogue. The course that cornel taught, the seminar taught at the university itself. Im not in the ideal person to rates moore for an elite institution because i love to be part of the conversation but a lot of times my critiques can be so intense that they say to themselves, were not really sure that this public face is the most effective in terms of being able to rates money. Sometimes they dive they have a broad perspective. If theyre committed to a robust, uninhibited conversation, then i think we might be aye able to get some contributors, but a lot of times i think a lot of people too radical to be raiding money for the well to do. On the guggenheim, the agreement i had to make sure that poor children throughout harlem and other places had access to instruments, but you come into these big institutions, concerned about the back weak ae vulnerable and ensure the institutions are attending to what theyre about. In that sense i wouldnt mind but i think generally speaking they would probably off on me. Very interesting experience. When it comes to my fundraising for me Madison Program, our donors, almost universally, many donors are politically conservative have counted it very much in favor of the program that cornel and i do the work we do together. I got not a single complaint from a donor or anybody else about our sponsoring cornels course last year and making him a fellow. That was on martin king and prophetic figures. The work that corn expel i do at princeton and around the country together issue find that supporters of the Madison Program are enthusiastic about that. This is what they want to see. They want to see the civil but robust engagement. Thats true. Working together across different lines. We have to be together, i think. Im not sure they would invite me all by myself. Its understandable,. We havent had an experience at the american enter prize institute, it was wonderful and as we were walking pout brother cornel we are we were treated graciously, and brother arthur and as we were walking out, coel said im not sure a progressive to think tank would have treated you as well as ive been treated. Hope thats not true i dont know. We havent tested that. Do wonder. When you have money and power and privilege, might be easier to treat somebody nice as opposed to folk who basically are pushed against the wall right now. The left is so weak, so feeble right now. I dont see it that way. I see it the opposite way. The liberals are powerful but not the left. You mean the you see the lib a dont confuse liberals and the left. They tied to wall street and imperial expansion and drone strikes and surveillance and massive Security State in way wes have to be very critical of. Host gentlemen, were going to get our callers involved. First a call from a woman named e in maryland, e, you are on we cornel west and Robert George. Caller id like to tall thats true spiritual serendipity. I came out of prayer and everything seems to fit. The question i have is what do you think of disavowing being in the republican and or democratic parties and file as independent with the more spiritual, truly spiritual stance . Host you know, well leave it there and let cornel west answer. Robert george, if you would flip the switch on your box, that should turn on your audio. Not that one. Dont turn that one. And garrett will come in and take care of that in just a minute. Cornel West Virginia ifif you want to tenant caller. I just want to thank you for your own spirit in terms of resonating with what were trying to convey. As we know, spirit can go in so many different directions, and im just concerned that when we talk about spirituality, that its tied very much to social justice for the most vulnerable in our society no matter who they are, and vulnerable in the world. When it comes to choosing which particular political party, i think we ought to look at the world through the lens of the most vulnerable, as a christian for me thats what means to look at the world through the lens of the cross, for amos, when he talk about looking at his society through the lens of those who were suffering and that could lead toward you being an independent. Very much so. I think that could be a sign of a certain kind of integrate because i think both of our Political Parties are just shot through with levels of myopia and cowardice and tied to big money that is so sad and so disempowering. So i think we need more independence, but the choice instance up to you. I deposit believe in dictating anybodys choice. Host next up is robby arbabsiar lon, new york. Ron, were listening to you, please go ahead. Caller i respect the value of love and caring for others, and the liberation of self and the concern for others. I think thats something that i really respect and think both of you gentlemen have talk about and are champions of. The question i have is you also have the principles of our country and beliefs in our country and the way the country was set up, and part of that is the congress, and part of that congress is the actual compromise of the congress, say, the current tax bill. Theres some good things and some bad things in that tax bill. How does that deal with the ideal of morality and love when indeed the road were on is an incremental road and a growth road and compromise has some bad elements. So i have a question in that area. Host thank you very much. Robert george, you only missed the kind comments of the discussion and then talk about the tax bill. Cornel west. I think the tax bill is colassal failure when it comes to issue off morality and spiritualality when it comes the vulnerable. Start slashing corporate rate for taxes, corporations are able to hire these very, very smart lawyers and create loopholes already. Offshoring, tax havens already. And now youre going to slice it with some take it down to 20 . I dont believe that the consecutive argument often put forward not but aconservatives but many disif you slash the taxes of the rich, thats going generate Economic Growth that will have an uplift for the most vulnerable. I do not see evidence of that. I hear it over and over again. So i do resonate with what you said about the concern about the vulnerable. You look at this tax bill through the lens of the vulnerable and impact on them, thats colassal failure. My open view is we did need to and do need to cut Corporate Taxes to make our own businesses more competitive. We have among, if not the highest Corporate Tax rates in the world and that has had verse consequences for american workers. This is a classic case of watching the sauce sandal sausage being made, and, yes there are a lot of compromises that are made and some of themmer very unfortunate. I have a worry, it was the worry that caused senator corker from tennessee vote against the bill in the senate, which is that were further expanding the deficit, not dealing with spending issues. I think a lot of ordinary people will get a small tax cut. A lot of wealthy people get a much larger tax cut. Taxes will go up for some wealthy people. Not for others. Its going to be a complicated situation, but at the end of the day, i dont think what we will have is fundamental change. I dont see this as a big breakthrough and i dope see it as big catastrophe. Ill will shift a few thingsright but not fundamental change. What i would like to see is a rethinking of the whole system, but that means tackling something that nobody wants to tackle and that is the spending side. Also, here im going to introduce an issue that one almost never hears about also the issue on the monetary side. We have had artificially low Interest Rates for a very, very long time, perhaps an unprecedentedly large time. Certainly in any lifetime. Never had such a period of very, very low Interest Rates, and of course thats the work of the fed. There are winners and losers as a result of that. We dont pay nearly enough attention to monetary policy, and i think there should be a serious, robust debate about that. Again, its not happening. So i think what were getting in this tax bill, at the end of the day, after all the storm and drang and dramatic speech biz the senators on both side, is not a lot of change, just some relatively minor rearrangements and the reform we need is not happening. And both sides agree, that for every 53 53cents out of a dollar goes to the military. When it comes to serious interrogation and accountability of the military industry complex, very little talk coming out of either party. Thats tied to our venturism, our Foreign Policy that often times does not have financial accountability to Public Interests. Im a person who believes in a Strong Military use as you now has to be accountable. Yes, too often its just easy to say, i have increased military spending, vote for me. I made our nation stronger, vote for me. And the money is taken and we dont have money for schools of quality and jobs with a living page wage and decent housing. Host lets hear from barbara in oak bluffs, massachusetts. Caller whoever said one and one does not make three has never encountered this road show. Absolutely thrilling conversation. I learned that m. I. T. Put their entire curriculum online and i like to get it filmed by npr, radio, a pod cast. Get it out here. The obvious power of his partnership is so extraordinary, and its almost like a leftbrain right brain partnership, because brother west is so warm and brother other is so cool and yet the words and the ideas are where its at. I have to remember that. Caller one more thing, its very important that we use means, memes. I heard the world soul craft and never heard that and its an invention of brother west here, i think, or both of them together. For me, i to me the better meme to focus on is integrate because integratey is its not connected to religion. Doesnt have the he i dont want to bad mouth soul because of that magnificent thing you do on the music. Its true. But for this Younger Generation, im 70, a reformed jew. Im an intellectual. But we have to understand that we are not going to be here much longer and have to figure out how to communicate this moral interesting grit thing to the next generation. Host well hear from brother west and brother robert. Brother other. Host thats right. I want to thank our caller for the kind comment. My own large undergraduate courses in Civil Liberties is going to go online fairly soon. Well do the first online version of that starting this spring. So this is an experiment for me. Ive been looking at what some other scholars have done, including our find, Michael Sandel with his course on justice, and done it very successfully. So, im hoping to make that work for my Civil Liberties course, but a seminar is a different this thing. We have wrestled whether we should make our seminar more public. We have had reporters ask the about sitting in or doing a clip on a newscast, and we have in the end always decided, no. Why . When someone is watching and reporting, when youre online, or when youre doing it as an online course, the students know theyre on display. The beauty of a seminar is that people, knowing theyre not on display, are willing to experiment with ideas, to speak if the minds to try a thought out even if it might turn out that its not going to work, and might even be embarrassing. So, to try to preserve the intimacy of the semar to try to make sure student does not feel as though theyre on display, in that format we have opted against any broader involvement of people in the seminar, trying to make it more widely available. Its a shame because theres so magic in the seminar. We just havent been able to find a way to share it. We could shift to a different format. We could do a big lecture course together, but ill let the viewers in on a little secret. You get two bigmouthed showoffs in a classroom, in front of 600, 800 students, youll lose some of the magic you get when its a seminar. Thats true. Brother unger, a towering figure at harvard law, where brother robby teaches, we teach a course at the law school, called american democracy, and we put each lecture on youtube and hes been doing this a long time. Thats the case where you have two persons who give lectures, very Little Exchange because by the time were done, the class is over. So you mills miss that dialogue that is so very important that brother robby and i revel in because we learn so much from each and were empowered by each other and the students are able to feel that energy ricocheting off our interaction. I loaf what my dear stir daughter sister said from oak bluff. A very special place. Thats the chocolate section marthas vineyard. No terms of cowl craft soul craft, when i talk about that, shes absolutely right, when we talk about soul craft as a fancy term this going back to plateau and medieval, through the man at the times but the issue of fortitude, all these need to not just be talk about but people have to see it exemplified. Enacted on the ground. Day by day, touch by touch. Laugh by love. Movement by movement. Guest religion and dismiss talk about the soul. Ive heard this suggestion before, and i know a lot of good people believe it. I cannot persuade myself that it is correct. I think if we go down that route, what we will be doing, basically, is spending down the capital of our great religious riggss, especially, of course traditions, especially, of course, in our culture and the jewish traditions, spending down the capital without replenishing it. So, yes, i agree with brother cornel, and i know from firsthand experience one need not be a religious believer to be a person of integrity. Theres no question about that. Guest thats right. Guest but can we defend these ideals, can we make them meaningful for people including our young people . Shes right to focus on our young people, theyre our future. Can we do all that by cutting off the routes, by going silent about religion . Do we have a way of defending our ideas of honor and integrity on the basis of a purely materialistic metaphysic or an idea of man of the human as mere material forces, as in a world exclusively made up of efficient and material causation where theres no soul, where theres no sense of a person as more than merely the material. Im dubious about this. I have very grave doubts about this. John adams famously said our constitution is for a moral and religious people and will not serve well any other kind of people. That was not controversial in adams day. Its very controversial in our day. But even adams knew that there were people who were skeptical about religion who were honor probable people. What he was doubting is what im doubting, whether you can cut these concepts of integrity and decency and honor off from their religious roots in our culture or relegate them to the merely personal and still sustain them in the face of the natural human desires to gratify ones own needs, to put ones self first, to favor ones self than ones comfort over others, to seek honor and glory and fame and power and influence. How do you fight back against all that if we cut off the roots of our basic understandings of moral concept . Guest thats guest thats my worry. Guest i think of the last word in the other adams, henry adams, the education of henry adams, that valedictory word, shudder. Guest yes, exactly. Guest what do you do with the death shudder, the dread shudder, the despair shudder. All of us shudder like faust in the ram of guest yeah. Guest to be human is to shudder, to shudder in the face of knowing you are on the way to extinction in terms of your body, to knowing that you may be betrayed by friends, you may be trash ld, misunderstood and misconstrued. And if religious narratives at their best allow us to come to terms with that spudder, you cant deny death. Sooner or later youre going to have to leave main street, come on back to your street andly your life. If you and live your life. Learning how to love, learning how to take risks, learning how to be vulnerable, learning how to have a certain kind of openness to others, and without those religious narratives as a species we know that theyve been crucial, but on the other hand we also know that were living in very, very secular times and that, you know, the debate between t. S. Eliot, you cant make it without religious tradition. Here comes chekhov saying religion has gotten in the way. It has promoted the hatred of jews, it has promoted the hatred of nonchristians, the hatred of muslims with the various crusades and so on. So how do you wrestle with that set of issues in an honest way . And its a tough one. Its a tough one. Guest you know, we can make a case. We can put things in terms of the human being as a creation capable of the human will if we continue to believe in those things, but even fated in that way it lacks the compellingness of the guest religious story. Guest human being is made in the likeness of god, of the supreme judge and ruler of the universe. Having a transcendent significance, something that goes beyond the merely material, beyond the here and now. I mean, now, be, in fact, the truth is that human beings are just atoms, molecules in motion, just atoms of no more significance than a rat or an ant, then we have to face that truth and do the best that we can with it. Guest but you have have transcendence without the religion well, im not sure about that. Guest i beauty, democracy, friendship. You can have rich friendship that transcends individuals among seculars that takes persons outside of themselves, that is transcendent guest but can you give an account of that, if all human beings are is material stuff, of no greater significance than a rat or an ant, you can give no account of why human beings should treasure friendship, should nurture friendship, should never betray a friend, should make sacrifices for a friend, should have integrity even at great cost, should be willing to sacrifice themself. Guest but you can ascribe significance to friendship even if you believe were nothing but these bumming of molecules in the relationship without necessarily referring to an external god. Guest all that is to do is to not ask the question, what is assuming that theres no answer to it. Guest its a secular source. Sphwhrg you think that can guest its aristotle, its lucian, its even mark twain ends up very atheistic, but hes a spiritual being in his guest living off the capital. Guest but hes living off the capital and its rhetorical and metaphorical rather than any claim to substance. Guest yeah. As you know, im a natural law theorist. Guest oh, i know, i know. You know im a bucket christian. Im just trying to think the strongest position against my own position. Guest which is the right way to handle it. Host tell you what, lets interrupt that, and lets hear from beck in inglewood, california. Hi, beck. Caller hi, how are you . Thank you for taking my call, professor george and professor west. Here is the bigger picture. Im very concerned regarding a potential military conflict between the United States and north korea. Here is the exact question. Can you identify any person or any group of people that may have an acceptable level of integrity and moral character to carefully and peacefully guiled us away guide us away from any potential conflict that can affect not just the United States, but the entire world. Ill hang up and ill wait for the answer. Thank you. Host thank you, beck. Gentlemen . Guest thats a very serious, very serious question. Administration after administration has tried to come up with a way of dealing with north korea and with the dictators of north korea. All have failed. Will President Trump do any better . Well, we can only hope so, but so far it doesnt look like hes going to do any better. May do worse. Guest yes. Guest this is a grave, this is a grave situation. We have very little controlful all we have been able to do so far is to put pressure on china to put pressure on north korea. That assumes that china is in a position to put pressure on north korea. We like to believe that, and to some extent i think that is true. But i think its limited. Theres also the question of chinas will to put pressure on north korea. Thats very dubious, to me. I wish i had a solution, beck. I wish i knew what to do. Yeah, i can think of, i can think of people i would trust to manage the most difficult of situations. I have my own favorite people in politics. But it would be an enormous challenge for anybody, and so far the record of administrations, republican or democrat, liberal and conservative, has been a record of failure. Guest no, its true. Its a fundamental query. I mean, i wish that President Trump had more of the poise and diplomatic maturity that we saw in president obama. Im not as one whos been critical of president obama, i go at him tooth and nail, but when it comes to it, theres a diplomatic maturity and the use of language and ways in which you try to lower the temperature, because this is an all of nothing this is a matter of pushing buttons, and lo and behold, were in a completely different time and space and zone. The kind of childish nonsense you get in the rhetoric of President Trump as opposed to the more mature diplomatic language of president obama, you have to acknowledge that. And that might be a way of lowering the temperature, but its not a direct answer because i dont know of a set of individuals who you could really trot out to help mediate this thing. I just dont know of any. Guest our only, the only possibility anybodys come up with is trying to work through china. Guest china, thats true. Thats exactly right. Maybe south korea may have some secrets of having connections with the north on the down low and, therefore, be able to serve. But at the moment, we do not have an answer to that question, and its a crucial one in terms of impeding nuclear catastrophe. Host cornell west, you met your first president in 968. 1968, who was it . Guest my first president . Host he wasnt president at the time. Guest oh, i met Ronald Reagan. Number one miler in the country, went on to uc berkeley guest i can tell you guest oh, i tell you, Ronald Reagan, we got a chance to interact with that brother. Now, he was a kind and gentle person, but i was very close to the black Panther Party and very supportive of angela davis, upset with what he had done with angela davis, pushing her out as professor of philosophy. So we had a nice little dialogue about his views host you were a teenager. Guest i was then 14. 14. But i have been raised by mom and dad to treat people kindly even if i had deep ideological disagreements [laughter] host have you ever met donald trump . Guest oh, yeah, absolutely. I met donald trump years ago in atlantic city, and hes exactly the same way then. Narcissistic, insecure, all spectacle, very little substance, obsessed with being the smartest and the richest in the room. The problem was that he was one of the few White Brothers in the room. So for the most part, he had to keep his mouth shut. He was in there with mike tyson. He had to keep his mouth shut because we had a certain kind of predominance, of style that pushed him to the margins. But you could tell that hes still the same little not little, but the same person who just never grew up. Never grew up, opportunity feel as if he has any accountability, responsibility, anything beyond himself. And i would have never thought if somebody had told me then that he would be in the white house, i would have toll them to get off the told them to get off the crack pipe. Theres no way. Theres no possibility that he would be elected by his fellow citizens. And lo and behold, here we are in this mess. Guest its worth asking ourselves how did it happen. Guest thats true. Guest theres a lot of blame to go around. The neglect of people who are the trump supporters, thats a big part of that story. Can i tell a story . This, of course, brother cornell met Ronald Reagan long before we knew each other. But ill tell you a little story about it. So one of my brothers happened to be at a reception where he met former president bill clinton. And he was telling me about this, my brother keith, keith george from charleston, West Virginia. Guest hes a good man. Guest keith had had a little conversation with former president clinton. And and so i asked keith, well, how did that go . Keiths a strong conservative like myself. [laughter] so he said, well, you know, what was interesting was that he was so warm and so engaging, and when he talked to me, he made me feel as though i was the only person in the room. And so i was reporting this story to cornel, i told it just as i told you and our viewers, and i said, isnt it interesting these politicians, they have that ability, they have this knack for talking to people and making people like them and make them, making people feel as though the politician is talking to them and that theyre the most important person in the world. And cornel replied, saying, well [laughter] ive met bill clinton on numerous occasions, and hes just faking it. [laughter] with Ronald Reagan, it was real. [laughter] guest bill clinton is a master at it. Hes a master at it, theres no doubt about it. But by being a master, hes able to appear a certain kind of way. Host one of the things we like to do on in depth is ask our guests who some of their influences are, what are some of their favorite books, what theyre reading now. Here are the responses we got there Robert George and cornel west. Heres a look at some of the best books of the year according to amazon. Edward luce, chief u. S. Columnist for the financial times, argues that liberal democracy is threatened in the retreat of western liberalism. In the last castle, Denise Kiernan reports on biltmore house, the largest private residence in American History. Tom nichols, professor of National Security affairs at the u. S. Naval war college, argues that due to the spread of the internet and 24hour news, Expert Opinion is now being discounted in the death of expertise. A look at the future of humanity, and wrapping up our look at amazons best books of 2017 is buzzfeeds essays on the upbringing as a tower of indian immigrants in canada, one day well all be dead and none of this will matter. In my eighth grade biology class, our teacher gave us a checklist to teach us how babies come out looking the way they do. The subtext from this particularly nationalistic teacher appeared to me only years later that we would all end up looking darker and more vague than we did in the past. She wasnt exactly unhappy about it, but she did express some concern regarding the eventual loss of the blueeyed and natural blonde. We were paired up with someone of the opposite sex so we could compare genes to determine what our potential child would look like. Let me really drive this home. A public schoolteacher in suburban calgary told her teenaged students to pretend they were going to have sex with each other and their biologically likely babies. I was one of the only ethnic kids in the class, my genes were already steamrolling everybody elses [laughter] my partner, eric, a white boy who was a holster tshirt personified, weapon down the checklist with me. When we arrived at hair on fingers or knuckles, i looked down at i my hands for what seemed like the very first time. Soft, black strands of hair. I was horrified. How had i never noticed such a grotesque feature . I always knew my legs were hairy, my arms covered, my upper lip bristled enough to catch flies, but i had overlooked this new barbarity. Well, i dont have any, eric said. I nodded and said, me neither. Some of these authors have appeared on booktv. You can watch them on our web site, booktv. Org. A look now at some of the authors recently featured on booktvs after words, our weekly Author Interview program. Daily Caller News Foundation editorinchief Christopher Bedford explored the leadership skills of President Trump. An fbi agent detailed his experiences fighting terrorism as a muslimamerican, and Bob Schieffer examined the role of the media today. In the coming weeks on after words, gold star father california zero khan call his immigration to the United States and offer his thoughts on what it means to be an american. Christopher scalia, son of the late Supreme Court justice antonin scalia, will share selections from his fathers speeches. And this weekend on after words best selling author Jennet Conant will report on the work of her grandfather, Manhattan Project scientist james bryant conant. There was a great fear that this weapon was so powerful that it could really destroy the world in the wrong hands, become something that terrorists could use. All of this was clearly envisioned by its creators really before the war was over and they began trying desperately to put in place some kind of international controls so that this weapon could not proliferate, you would not have people stockpiling and Building Nuclear weapons left, right and center. And so this meeting in moscow on Christmas Eve was so crucial because my grandfather and the americans that went were desperately hoping that they could convince stalin and molotov to agree to control the future of this terrible, terrible force. They were very optimistic that it could still be done, but by the time they left moscow they were, they were less convinced that the russians really wanted to participate in these negotiations. After words airs on booktv every saturday at 10 p. M. Eastern and sunday at 9 p. M. Eastern and pacific. Heres a look at some books being published this week. President trumps former campaign manager, corey lewandowski, and Citizens United president david bossie provides an inside look at the 2016 president ial campaign in let trump be trump. In the doomsday machine, whistleblower daniel else burg, responsible for the leak of the pentagon papers, reports on the governments Nuclear Defense program and shares his experiences as a defense analyst. University of texas womens history chair Jacqueline Jones recounts the life of political activist lucy parsons in the goddess of anarchy. Also being published this week, the saboteur looks back at the life of a french aristocrat turned antinazi saboteur during the french resistance. Senior circuit judge on the u. S. Court of appeals steven f. Williams explores how a russian lawyer attempted to forge an alternative political path in the leadup to the 1917 Russian Revolution in the reformer. And in the last man who knew everything, David Schwartz recalls the life of Manhattan Project physicistmen rico ferme. Look for these titles in bookstores this coming week, and watch for many of the authors in the near future on booktv on cspan2. Host and we are back with Robert George and cornel west in our new york studio, this is our in Depth Program, and sean in battleground, michigan, you have been very patient. Please go ahead with your question. Caller actually, battleground, washington, but thank you for this wonderful opportunity. Dr. West, i have in my hand a book you coauthored about 20 years ago called the war against parents. Dr. West, you referenced the scandinavian economic model. Its not a mystery what causes healthy, positive outcomes for children and families. Theyve been practicing it in scandinavia for years and years. The christian right and the libertarian right have been marching arm in arm with deregulation and deunionization policies that we know devastate poor and working class children and families. These families that have been catching hell now for the last 40 some years in this country. When you have people like Charles Murray writing books like coming apart attacking the poor and working class for having poor moral fiber and you have someone like Speaker Paul Ryan who claims to be a christian, he makes required reading ayn rands atlas shrugged. It seems to me the christian rights god is not jesus, their god is a kind of nietzschean ayn rand type. Could you host all right. Sean, were going to start with cornel west and then Robert George. Guest no, no, brother sean, boy, he was on fire. Hes laying it out there. Again, i think when you talk about the christian right, certainly, theres a lot of danger in terms of the hatred there, the contempt that we see too often, but its not homogeneous. Theres a variety of different voices there. Certainly, its the case that not just the christian right, but the american right as a whole has such a deep suspicion of government playing a fundamental role in the lives of everyday people that they can easily overlook the ways in which Government Intervention into the lives of everyday people can be profoundly empowering as opposed to simply authoritarian and repressive. We have to keep track of the government intervening, but certainly when you look to norway, finland and other places, we can look to canada, our beloved canada just north of the border. The government can play a very Important Role in intervening into the lives of others to enhance liberty, to enhance wellbeing. So part of its the ideological and a political question of perception and will. The christian right suffers from it, the secular right can suffer from it, the buddhist right, the hindu right and so forth and so on. But i had great fun writing that with my great sister sylvia whos gone on to do magnificent things in terms of issues of inclusion at the corporate level of women and people of color. Shes still going very strong with her center for talent and innovation right here in new york, but that was over 20 years ago when we wrote the war against the ways in which the parenting is the ultimate guest seans comment was a highly theological one, kind of detected a sort of dogmatism in it. I am not a fan of ayn rand. Im a very sharp critic of ayn rand. The whole of the christian right is not randian, most of the christian right is not randian. I have my own criticisms with leading figures on the christian right as you might imagine, but work done by Charles Murray, by robert putnam, by david and amber lapp and others on the cultural foundations of the moral collapse that we see not only in minority communities and inner cities and places like that, but in appalachia, in the south and old rust belt cities among White Working Class communities, the cultural foundations of that are reel, and theyve got to be are real, and theyve got to be dealt with. 1965 when dan yell patrick moynihan, then Daniel Patrick moynihan, then just a Young Harvard professor who was working as Deputy Assistant secretary of labor, if i recall correctly, did his study that the out of wedlock birthrate among africanamericans had risen to 25 . And moynihan could see what the consequences of that would be for this historically persecuted and oppressed sector of our society, that that meant wide scale fatherlessness and together with that delinquency, despair, drug addiction, violence, incarceration and a vicious cycle. When moynihan warned about all that, warned where it would lead, for his efforts he was labeled a racist. He was stigmatized. And so people went silent on cultural questions, on the cultural foundations of that family collapse and moral collapse for fear of being treated the way moynihan was treated. And so a very significant aspect of the problem was swept under the rug. The one thing moynihan, i think, was wrong about was he thought it had mainly to do with race and the history of racial depression. We now know that that is too simplistic an account because were seeing the same effecting happening where the effects happening where the family has broken down for cultural reasons, in White Working Class communities, appalachia and other rural areas. We can make the mistake also of imagining its only culture, that economics has nothing to do with it, that other factors including racism has nothing to do with it. That would be a mistake too. But just as it would be a mistake to leave those factors out, its also a mistake to leave these other factors out. And you can stigmatize murray and call him a racist. Hes a libertarian. Im a critic of libertarianism. But in his recent work, calling attention to the disparities between the haves, the wealthy and the have nots, black and white and the cultural basis and the importance of families and especially intact families in the success that people have as citizens and as human beings, hes doing a service. So is putnam, so are the lapps, so are brad wilcox and other socialologists who are finally calling attention to this. So my point is just not to oversimplify. Dont imagine its only culture, but dont leave culture out of it. Dont shoot the messengers, however much you dont like them, who deliver the message when the message is right. Guest id just add one point. You think about legacies offing rabbi Abraham Martin king, malcolm x accenting the moral lapse among elites, the moral lapse of wall street, the moral lapse of ivy league institution, the moral lapse of the journalistic elites not our dear brother peter. But were talking about moral lapses that cut across class, that go up, they go down, they go horizontal. Its not just a matter of picking on the vulnerable ones, the coming aparts or poor whites, blacks, browns, reds and so forth. This spiritual blackout that were talking about cuts across every nook and cranny in sight in our empire. Guest i think it also has to be pointed out that while the spiritual consequences of this moral collapse are borne most heavily well, the spiritual consequences are really borne by everybody. Guest right. Guest the material consequences are borne by the most vulnerable. Guest oh, absolutely. Guest by the poor, whether theyre black or white. Guest i agree. Guest and people are finally starting to call attention to that problem. One of the things murray says in his new book is very often you see now a rebuilding, a successful marriage culture, lower divorce rates, more family formation among educated and affluent elites. Things seem to be going in the right direction while things continue to go in the wrong direction for poor and working class people. So murray says its time for elite ares to start preaching elites to start preaching what they practice. Dont preach moral relativism when youre practicing the moral virtues that are leading to successful lives for yourselves and your children. And working class and poorer people who often are devout religious believers and who preach a message of family integrity, fidelity, uprightness need to, need to actually practice what they preach. And i think theres some truth to that. I think we need to call really on everybody to lead the kinds of lives that will not only produce spiritual value, but also make them materially better off. Guest absolutely are. Host from Robert Georges book conscience and its enemies, professor west, he writes the two greatest institutions for lifting people out of poverty and enabling them to live in dignity are the market economy and the institution of marriage. These two stand or fall together. Guest yeah. Im not sure that i i certainly would acknowledge the importance of those two. Very much so. But wed have to, first, examine much more closely what kind of market economy were talking about, what kind of marriage were talking about. There are many marriages that that actually need to terminate because of people catching hell, patriarchal violence, the indifference to callousness and so forth. One proceeds very cautiously, but certainly what is the quality of each one of those categories that he puts forward. And i think brother robbie would agree with that. Thats one sentence out of the text. The question becomes, okay, lets look at the kinds of market economies that can provide the requisite conditions for the flowering of our fellow citizens. And theres a variety of different kinds. Lets look at the kinds of marriages. Theres a variety of different kinds of marriages. There are some very ugly, patriarchal marriages of abuse that theres no way that the woman can live a life of wellbeing, you see. And im sure brother robbie would call that into question. Guest sure. Guest so that would be my First Response to that particular, particular sentence. Guest my point is if you destroy one of them, you will destroy the other, and if you destroy both of them, no one is going to flourish. Im not defending every form of market economy, im not defending every marriage. Ive said that i think the problem with crony capitalism is it prevents the market from doing what the market does well when its properly functioning which is it increases quality, it lowers prices, it provides Employment Opportunity and social mobility for those who are at the bottom of the scale and enables them to rise. When i say the market, thats what im interested in. Guest absolutely. Guest and i want a culture in which families function to transmit the virtues that children need in order to be successful, to lead successful lives and be contributing, good citizens. Thats no, in no way to license abuse or any of the other guest right. Domination. I think its true that brother robbie and i, we really wrestle with the issue of our precious gay brothers and lesbian sisters and trans because theyre, for example, the very notion of what some people call samesex marriage or a love that flows in which person of the same gender that brother robbies always many our dialogue been very cautious and very careful in saying as a christian, he still loves gay brothers and lesbian sisters made in the image of god. And so hes trying to stay in contact with their humanity even as he is critical of samesex marriage. Is that a fair characterization . Is. Guest yeah, absolutely. Guest and then the question becomes, and i push him on that because im very much one who supports love flowing in a variety of different forms even in this legalized, having legalized status when it comes to gay brothers and lesbian sisters or trans folk or whatever. And there we get theological in terms of what kinds of resources can i pull, can he pull and generate support for his argument, to generate support for my argument. And thats a serious matter because there are certain biblical passages that one can invoke that are highly critical of samesex marriage. Theres crystalcentric understandings of the biblical text in which you focus very much on jesus, why was jesus silent on the issue. If paul says x, paul says, slaves, be obedient to your masters, well, were not going to accept that. Paul says something about samesex marriages, we might accept that. Those are the kinds of dialogues that we have, and i think those are the kinds of dialogues that we need to have in the country that begin with the preciousness of each every one of us as human beings. And then move to various ways in which we disagree regarding the coming together in a marriage or coming together in a relationship or what have you. Guest yeah. The bedrock principle is that of the profound, inherent and equal dignity of the human being. Guest right. Guest thats it. To put it in religious terms, the idea of man made in the image and likeness of god. Now, in these areas of morality and family, my own argument, i suppose, would be typical for a catholic. Different for a protestant. Natural law. Not appeals to scripture. I do think that scripture can enlighten us guest thats true. [inaudible conversations] guest thats right. Its guest yeah, or im glad you correct me on on that. Yeah, absolutely. Guest that tens to be made more central tends to be made more central. But the fundamental issue for me, i mean, the great majority of cases youre going to have opposite sex relations, the critical thing for me is that those relationships be supported by a culture that will enable them not only to last, but to provide the milieu in which parents can transmit essential virtues that will enable their children to resist all the terrible temptations that can reduce them to narcissism, selfishness. Were living in the wake of this was our generation the me generation whose motto, whose slogan was if it feels good, do it. Well, a lot of young people of successor generations have taken that to heart. And its a very, very bad message. Now, how can we empower men and women to transmit to their children a different message and to inculcate it in them in a way that will enable them to resist the temptations to think that what really matters in life is me, me, me, me, me. Money, power, influence, wealth, social standing, status, respect, so forth. Guest i mean, the sad thing is that so many children in the last 30 years or so, reminds me of Phillip Larkins thing about how my parents messed me up, its the parents who have been narcissistic. Its the parents who have been indifferent, the parents who have been callous. And they passed that on to the Younger Generation. The Younger Generation has to find countervailing ways of being in the world over and against what their parents transmitted to them. Guest you know, when we moved in the direction of nofault divorce going all the bay all the way back to the 60s, decent people thought it would be good for the spouses because they could separate, and that would be that, and it would be less fuss and bother and less of the burden on the counts and on the public purse because the public purse supports the courts and so forth. And they even thought it would be good for children because its got to be bad for children living in conflict situations with their parents. But if you look at work thats done by sociologists today, people like the lapps and others work on the consequences of nofault divorce, you know, it has not been good for children. Children in most cases where theres not violence or abuse, even where theres a high degree of conflict do better with their parents sticking together. But what have we done to support marriages . Very little. What have we done to encourage parents to stick together . Very little. What have we done to provide cultural support for parents, to make it easier for them to sustain their a marriages . Really very little. Now, this is not a critique of government fundamentally because theres very little that government can do here other than get divorce policy right, get family law policy right. The real work has to be done by the institutions of Civil Society. Its got to be done by those nongovernmental institutions, what burke called the little platoons; family, extended family, church, other religious community, neighborhoods, civic groups, groups in which people of different ethnicities and faiths and so forth support each other. Thats where the real work in supporting marriage and the family has to be. Guest but if the government did help provide jobs with a living wage, quality housing, arts programs, music programs, sports programs that channel the energies of young people in such a way that was tied more to Public Interest rather than just privatistic orientation, that would be a way in which, like scandinavian countries, families could possibly be sites where children would flower and flourish. Guest you certainly need those things. Guest yes, yes. Guest now, whether government should be the provider guest not the sole, but can play a partnership and a role and a fundamental guest right. But the part of the way we do that is have taxation at a rate that will enable people to retain enough of their money to be able to provide things like Music Lessons and ballet lessons and religious education for their children, also to put parents in a situation where if they want to choose private, including religious youve been very good on this education theyre able to do that. The situation now, of course, is one in which people pay property taxes to support Public Schools even though they want to send their own kids to religious schools. Its increasingly expensive even in the old days when priests and nuns did most of the staffing. Well, the vocations crisis in the Catholic Church now means its more difficult to do that. The costs of education become higher and higher, its harder for parents to afford to send their kids to catholic schools. So i think government does have a role to play here, but often it is in facilitating rather than in actually providing the services and support thats needed. Id rather see Civil Society liberated to do that providing than to have government come in and try to do it directly. Host cornel west and Robert George are our bests. Heres a couple of their bookings. Cornel west east best selling race cornel wests best selling race matters. A new introduction. Democracy matters came out in 2004. His autobiography, brother west living out loud, came out in 2009. Black prophetic fire, 2014. Heres a couple of Robert Georges books including making men moral, 1995, the clash of orthodoxies which weve talked about today in 2001. Conscience and its enemies, 2013. And Conjugal Union what marriage is and why it matters. Weve done a little constitution on that today as well. Cornel west, if somebody wanted to buy one of your books, which one do you recommend to them . Guest i would tell them to buy James Baldwin [laughter] listen to some Curtis Mayfield and John Coltrane and nina simone. Theres so many other voices more important than mind. I would never promote my own text. But if they had a little extra time, i would say read race matters with the new introduction. Host Robert George, same question to you. Guest well, i suppose it would depend on a persons particular interests. If theyre interested in the deeper sorts of philosophical questions, then id recommend my bookmaking men moral Civil Liberties and public morality, which is the subtitle of that book. Thats the book on the basis of which i was given tenure at princeton, so its kind of a special book. It was my first book. Guest absolutely. Guest i reread it recently, and i still think im right about that. [laughter] much of the rest of the Academic Community thinks im wrong about it guest for 32 years. Guest found it interesting enough to award me tenure. If people are interested in contemporary issues, issues of marriage and sanctity of human life and all the kinds of things weve been talking about today, then perhaps my book conscience and its enemies which is my most recent book would be, be the one to look at. Ive also written with coauthors books on particular topics, so if people are interested in abortion and euthanasia, infanticide and those kind of issues, i have a book that ive written with the philosopher Christopher Tollefsen could embryo a defense of human life. And if people are interested in the marriage issue, i have a book that i wrote with two of my former students, a pair of brilliant young men, and that is what is marriage man and woman, a defense. Host eric is in lutherville, maryland. Hi, eric. Caller hi, how are you . I have a question host go ahead. Caller primarily for professor west, but also for the other professor as well. Im trying to understand [inaudible conversations] caller the last eight years of the obama presidency, and he painted a very Progressive Agenda when he was running as a candidate, never delivered on a large portion of that Progressive Agenda. And im wondering whether that was caused because the agenda i wasnt his real core beliefs, whether he lacked the courage to pursue those beliefs or when it was just the whether it was just the dynamics of the political era that were living in. Guest yeah, appreciate the question. I think one of the revealing moments of the Obama Administration was march 2009 when he met with leading wall street haze of firm heads of firms there, and they told him that they were wondering what he had to say. And he told them i stand between you and the pitchforks, but i rest assure you i am on your side, i will protect you, you have little to worry about. Thats a failure of nerve, thats a spinelessness, thats a lack of courage, that thats what you tell poor people, thats what you tell working people, thats what you tell black people. You dont tell wall street elites that i will protect you, i am on their side. Its no accident not one wall street executive went to jail given the massive crimes that were committed in terms of the predatory lending and inside trading, market manipulation and fraudulent activity. It was very clear youd have a wall streetfriendly, neoliberal Democratic Party in power, and the same was true in terms of his Foreign Policy. When he preserved his elites in the state department and in the pentagon so that the same folk tied to drone strikes, the brennans and others remained in power. When he brought in tim geithner from wall street, he brought in my dear brother larry summers. Smart as a tack but at the same time at that time tied to deregulating neoliberal policies. It was clear he had wall streetfriendly, drone presidency escalating and, therefore, a lot of the progressive rhetoric and that audacity of hope would become empty in regard to poor people and working people. Symbolically, he was masterful. What i mean symbolically, is to have a black face in the highest place in the American Society empire in government meant that not only had he made progress, which we had, but we had black people being empowered. We were in power for eight years, and you look around at poor people, look around the ghettos, look around the schools, look around at the massive unemployment and the massive incarceration, wow, who was in power for eight years . Theyre the ones who did very well, ask the folk in prison, ask the folk in the hoods whether they were in power. Not at all. There was a failure of nerve not just among barack obama, but among intellectuals, black intellectuals became cheer leaders for barack obama. The same folk would talk about Martin Luther king jr. As the extemplar of justice didnt want to talk about policy. The same people talked about Martin Luther king jr. As a great example of justice didnt want to say a word about the drone strikes that were dropping on babies in yemen and pakistan and so forth. The same folk even on the middle east. Want to talk about justice consistently, didnt say a mumbling word when 550 precious palestinian babies were killed in 50 days. Barack obama didnt say a mumbling word either. Why . Because he lacks courage. Hes spineless. He didnt want to tell the truth. Hes a politician. It was not in his interest to speak about that kind of suffering, you see. And so we ended up with another politician rather than a visionary leader. Now, was he a good politician . Absolutely. He got elected twice. Was he better than john mccain . Absolutely. Who was the other brother who ran . Mitt romney, absolutely. But did he fall short in terms of the standards of the martin kings and others . Absolutely. And not enough people told that truth. Guest ill let everyone in on a little secret. Big business does not consider Big Government to be its enemy. [laughter] guest thats true. Guest it loves the government. Guest exactly. Guest wall street loves Big Government. Now, upstart entrepreneur dont necessarily love Big Government. Small Business People dont necessarily love Big Government. Guest thats right. Guest but big business does because big business benefits. Ill tell you my own story. Obviously, it doesnt have to do with president obama, who i never met. But i was, i served during the Bush Administration as, the second bush, george w. Bush on the president s council on bioethics, and i was in the white house advising him on bioethical issues. We developed a good relationship, i have a lot of respect for him. He called me in, though, with two or three other professors right at the end, in his last week in office to talk about his memoir. He was already planning his memoir. So we were talking about his eight years, and right in the front of his mind was something that had just happened which was the bailout of the big banks. The big bailouts. And unprovoked by any of us, he just said as if talking to himself almost, he said, you know, i hated to do that. I hated to authorize that. Everything in me said, no, you dont bring government in to bail out businesses that have failed, that have failed because of their own practices. Thats not the role of government. Im a free market guy. And yet, he said, what what coui do . The leading people on wall street and the leading wall street representatives like snow in my administration are telling me that if we dont do this, it will be a 1929 stock market catastrophe. What could i do . I had to authorize the bailout. Wall street has tremendous influence in any administration, republican or democrat. They can be very promarket in theory, profree market in theory, but if wall street wants a Big Government intervention in the market, wall streets going to get it. They can be very progressive in theory, but if wall street wants something, wall streets going to get it. Its very hard to stand up against that. And in president bushs case, i mean, he did not want to be the president who presided over the next great depression, and he felt that his hands were tied on this, and he had no choice. Wall street got what it wanted. Free market guys were not in favor of those bailouts. My free market friends were scandalized by it. Yet wall street wanted it, wall street got it. Guest but the difference is president bush didnt put a figure, a representation of Martin Luther king jr. In the corner acting as if youre working on his project and based on his legacy. It was more consistent even with president bush as a conservative. If youre going to be someone coming out of the legacy of martin king, youre going to have to be courageous, sacrificial, serviceoriented for the week. If not, just tell the truth. Im a neoliberal, i might have a statue of him, but i dont have no plans of following through. Im not going to bail out main street, im not going to bail out the homeowners, im going to bail out wall street. Be honest. A lot of black people have been moderates. Whitney young was not Martin Luther king jr. , didnt run around acting like he was malcolm x. He was whitney young, he was a moderate, head of the urban league. Dont act like youre some kind of progressive and radical when youre really a moderate. That was partover of my part of my critique of barack obama. Dont use Martin Luther, he suffered too much, he paid the ultimate price. Quit manipulating his witness with neoliberal policies. If youre going to get in trouble, youre going to follow martin. If you want to be moderate and adjust to the status quo, follow whitney young. Just tell the people the truth, thats all. Thats like saying you show up at a concert acting like you al green, and then you start singing like a brown version of pat boone or something. [laughter] hey, tell people the truth, this is who i am. Quit lying about yourself. Thats the thing that upsets me. Not only that, but thats part of the best of the black tradition. Host robert, email. Facebook, twitter have become the new nonstate powers which have a huge impact on societies worldwide. They seem to accelerate polarization and disinformation. Guest theres some truth in that, and i cant contradict can it. Now, now, i also spoke earlier about my worries about monopoly and oligopoly and especially when it comes to free speech issues, these type of firms and platforms. But i think that people who care about the quality of our civic discourse can use those platforms to counteract the bad things that this gentleman rightly points to. I, in my own work, use facebook as a kind of ongoing seminar. I have serious discussions with facebook friends of source issues. I call to the attention of my friends things that i think are worth reading. When i say my friends, these are mostly people ive never met in my life, but theyre people with whom ive developed relationships online because theyre interested in the kinds of moral and political, civic, religious issues that im interested in. So my advice to the gentleman is lets make the most of facebook. Its not going to go away. Facebook and twitter are going to be here. Were not going to get rid of them. Now, there may be some steps that we can, that we can take to make them behave a little bit better than they are behaving, but we ourselves in using those assets can use them to counteract the bad things and to advance things that would improve the quality of our civic life. Host absolutely. I mean, you think, for example, the great reverend William Barber ii whos reviving the Poor Peoples Campaign right now. When he uses this new technology, its a way of reaching out across and race, class, jenner, Sexual Orientation to bring people together. Thats different than the neonazis who we were staring down in charlottesville just a few months ago. We use the same technology to bring together the fascists and others to try to bring some kind of contemptuous attitudes toward blacks and j everything ws and muslims and gays and he lesbians and others and catholics. Even david duke is catholic in the klan. Get a catholic head of the ku klux klan, my god. Someday youre going to have a negro head. I did see a black person who marched in charlottesville. Guest s with nazis . Guest s with nazis. Theres confusion everywhere. Very much so. But generally speaking, it reflects who we are as persons. The bastardization, the division and so forth. Thats what we bring to the technology. We havent undergone [inaudible] guest yeah, thats exactly right. Host suprea is in edgewater, new jersey. Please go ahead with your question or comment. Caller hi, thanks so much. Its been great listening to both of you. Im really, i feel more than just informed by this conversation and educated, but i feel my heart is healed a little bit, and so i want to echo the calls from others to figure out a way, there is a way. And i know, professor george, i think youd been kind of wrangling this issue of bringing your seminar to the public, etc. But there is a way, and much more Creative Minds than i can figure it out. But weve got to get you on television, and weve got to get this out because i think the way that you both go about having these discussions, disagreeing with even other and the with each other and the obvious affection you have for each other is really important. So having said that, let me get to my question which is going back to a framework that you brought up earlier. You were discussing earlier for how the sort of American Experience or experiment works with the three sort of elements, right . We have the free markets, we have the foundation of virtuousty, and we have, sorry, a second pillar of democracy. I guess my question is how in the world, where do we begin when i think whats become so obvious to so many of us in the last year, we have some really deep problems in all three of those areas . You know . Ive been spending the last year trying to figure out where to focus my attention, and im one person of millions whos doing the same exact thing. Question is where do we begin . Is there a chicken or egg kind of situation here . Are there things that we can be doing host thank you for your time today. Lets hear from the professors. Who wants to start this time. Guest well, thank you very much not only for your kind comment, but for your very thoughtful question. And its the right question. Ive wrestled with it myself. Heres the best i can do. I thinkal of us can do i think all of us can do a service to all of the rest of us by reaching out to people whom we know have a very different perspective on basic issues than we have. So if youre not a trump person and especially if youre someone highly critical of trump or someone whos afraid of trump, get to know a trump voter. Get to know them not just to lecture them, not just to harangue them, but to try to understand where theyre coming from. I think that would be a service. If youre a trump person, if youre a trump voter and you think that trump is the tribune of the people to stand up against these horrible elites, get to know one of those horrible elites, you know . Reach out in a personal way. And just listen. One of the things we need to do, one of the things with brother cornel i love listening to this guy. Its easy to listen. And listening is where i think sending a signal across the ideological or partisan divide that im willing to listen is the necessary first step. And were badly divided in this country, were deeply, deeply polarized. Its not the first time this has happened. Go back to the election of 1800, the civil war, look at the division over slavery. But its still even considered existence that historical backdrop, this is a period of deep polarization, animosity, resentment, americans resenting other americans, americans thinking of other americans as villains. Large number, 62 million as villains with the other side thinking the first 62 million are villains. If this precious experiment in republican government and liberty is going to survive, were going to have to get past this, and it begins with talking with each other. And you cant talk to someone else unless you signal to that person a willingness to listen. So lets begin there, seems to me. Guest absolutely. I think one begins with ones self because one, on one hand, has been shaped by traditions in the past. We critically appropriate the best, we hold at arms length the worst. But also you attempt to exemplify in your thoughts, in your actions, in your organizations, in your networks the kind of truthtelling, witnessbearing but also more than that. And this relates to [inaudible] music again. Robbie and i grew up in a time in which you had tenderness and and sweetness and kindness shot through your music. You had groups that could sing not just in tune, but touch the soul at deepest level. They werent just titillating the body. These days the music titillates the body in order to make money as opposed to shaping the souls, in order to make persons stronger, to make persons spiritually equipped and ready to take on the world. Curtis mayfield didnt sing just to make money. He quipped people of all colors to deal with the crisis and catastrophes with smile, style, humor. Thats whats missing. We need all of that in our own lives. We need that in movements, in leftwing movements, centrist movements. Where is the humor that allows us to laugh at ourselves such that we can grow and thereby be better relative to who we are . Because some people are going to be who they are. Everybodys not going to agree with you. But you can touch them, you can unsettle them. But if they shut down before you even get a chance to touch an unsettled, then were even more divided in that way, you see . Robbie and i, we brothers for life. And were going to fight, were going to struggle and so forth and so on, you see . But at that human level, thats just the way it is. No matter how unpopular we become or whatever. It aint about unpopularity, its about the type of humans we choose to be before the worms get our body. Thats the kind of people we come from. Thats not just this country, thats just every other country. America has no monopoly on integrity. They got it in list lithuania, s in turkey, the jews got it in tel aviv if they are willing to be courageous. Youve got the same cowardice in each place. Most of Human History is a history of domination and hatred. Thats what it is. All were trying to do is interrupt it. Were trying to disrupt it. Guest you know, when youre talking Curtis Mayfield, im thinking hank williams. Guest oh, that country musics soulful to the core. Different kind of twang, different kind of rhythm but very similar story. Bob marley imitating in jamaica with his genius. Guest you know, one of the things we tend to do, suprea, is we try to signal things to each other, especially others in a group that were already comfortable in to make clear that were in the in group, were on your side. We say things, especially saying things about other people with different beliefs that are meant to strengthen our bond with people in our tribe. Well, i think we need to be willing a little bit to be the gadfly in the tribe, do it whats been done so well on the progressive side. Question some of these established orthodoxies. Dont worry so much about signaling that im an insider and im on the part of the in crowd. Be a little willing to take the risk of being an outcast. And if youre made an outcast, thats something that were going to have to, were going to have to live with. Its much better to have integrity. Its much better to try to do something to reform a situation badly in need of reform than to just live with the comfort of being in the in crowd by saying what other people want to hear. Host have you ever been criticized for your friendship with cornel west and vice versa . Guest very rarely, in my case. One of the i have to hand it to my conservative friends, very rarely has i think the one exception would be on issues having to do with israel where cornel has been perceived by some conservatives as going over the line. Too harshly critical of israel. Now, i know in my heart there is not anything antisemitic about cornel west. Hes got a heart for the Palestinian People and their suffering. He wants to see justice done. We would have some disagreements about guest sure. Guest israeli policy. But no government, and i want all my friends who share my support for israel to to understand, theres no government that should be immune from criticism. Theres no government that doesnt make mistakes. The Israeli Government has made mistakes. The netanyahu government has a made mistakes, has done things that are wrong. Nobody is perfect. So those create kim criticisms are perfectly legitimate. Now, there are people who go over the line who use criticism of the Israeli Government and the state of israel as a pretext for expressing antisemitism. There are people who would like to see israel disappear from the face of the earth. I believe its still in the palestinian charter, isnt it, cornel [inaudible conversations] cease to exist. So i think thats caused the sensitivities in some circles that have led people to say how can you, robbie george, strong supporter of israel and the jewish people, associate with cornel west. Now, people who know me also know that i have been one of the leading voices, i think its fair to say and you can correct me if im wrong, cornel, on the christian and conservative side in the defending the rights of muslims. Guest thats true. Guest i made that a big part of my work guest i was on the commission. Guest u. S. Commission on International Guest we had many joint statements supporting muslim brothers and sisters. Probably does that on the local level, the Muslim Leaders in guest so i think we need to avoid tribalism of any sort here. But apart from that, im really proud of my conservative friends who really have seen value in the work that cornel and i do. They have Great Respect for this man, by the way. Great respect for him. Host have you been criticized for your friendship . Guest sure. You know, the left tend to be a bit more vociferous than the rightwing brothers. A number of them say we understand why you spend time, his stance on samesex marriage, we wrestle on abortion issues, we wrestle on instances of extended regulation and so forth. And i just tell them i say, one, you dont understand who he is as a human being. You have a stereotype of him. You understand a conservative and then think that somehow by some law you can grasp his complexity because he calls himself a conservative. Every conservative in a stereotypical sense is in no way a human being who is conservative and has a variety of different complexities, orientations that dont conform to the stereotype. I just tell them up front youve never met brother. Why dont you come to dinner with us, come to lunch with us, have a drink with us, have a coffee well, he doesnt drink much, but i have my cognacs. [laughter] and thats the same thing he tells them. Well, brother west says if theres a palestinian occupation of jewish brothers and sisters, he would be saying the exact same thing against palestinian occupation. Its a consistent and moral and spiritual issue. Palestinian baby has the same value as a jewish baby, and vice versa. Innocence and humanity on both sides. How do we proceed . We can disagree on tactics and strategy. Weve got to make sure our spiritual and moral foundations are in place. So it is with brother robbie. Brother robbie and i, we went to dallas with brother flowers, terry flowers guest thats exactly right. Guest precious young people there and his engagement not just at the personal, spiritual level, but also in terms of the framework that he provided in terms of [inaudible] thats empowering to them. Hes the only vanilla brother in the room. But the Human Connection is made. Flowers is Visionary Leadership flowers visionary guest absolutely fantastic. I need to tell your viewers. Dr. And mrs. Flowers, they have no public funding whatsoever. They take children of prostitutes, drug addicts, kids who you think are lost, they have no future, theyre going to end up in jail, theyre going to end up in trouble. They take these kids, and they give them a first class education. I dont even know how they do it, cornel guest well, they do it out of love. Guest i know why they do it. How they pull this off. And the kids go to notre dame, stanford guest youve got a genius like erica bahdu, youve got a variety of kids there and yet that love is there. And harlem crowe, actually, has made a contribution. Guest he has, indeed. Host who is he . He has come up several times. [inaudible conversations] guest down in dallas, very generous donor to many, many good causes including the school that the flowers run for black kids in dallas. Its wonderful to see the kids are there in their school uniforms, and theyre being taught not only classroom skills, but just the human skills guest thats right. Guest the rules of finish. Guest selfrespect. Yeah. Guest congeniality, how youre sensitive to other peoples needs. All those things that go into the making of any human being of integrity. Guest at the end of the day, this is a retail operation, isnt it . Soul craft is a retail operation. You know, its working with individual kids. Its somebody, a parent, a teacher, a coach, a grandparent, a pastor working with individual kids. Host i just got a message from my producer. It says you can just go home, its cool. They got this. [laughter] i think youre right. [laughter] jim, pine ridge, south dakota, youre on with cornel west and Robert George. Caller good morning, gentlemen. I have a question to both of you. Host hey, jim, youve got to turn down the volume on your tv. Theres a little bit of a delay. Why dont you go ahead, hit the volume and just go ahead and state your question. We can hear you. Caller my question to both professors is, what are your thoughts about rewriting the u. S. Constitution to make it truly more equal for all peoples . Thank you. Host thank you, jim, very much. The u. S. Constitution. Guest i rather like the one we have. Now, i do think that from time to time reconsidering elements of the constitution its important. The constitution provides methods for its own amendment, so it contemplates the possibility of improvements being made. But i think the fundamental structure of the constitution is a work of extraordinary genius, and we would, wed be making a bad mistake if we threw over things like the separation of powers, the concept of the National Government is a government of delegated and enumerated and, therefore, limited powers, and the states as governments of general jurisdiction exercising plenary authority, federalism. There are, i think, crucial dimensions of our bill of rights that i wouldnt want to see touched. Now jefferson, Thomas Jefferson believed that the dead hand of the past should not control the living. So he wanted to have a new Constitutional Convention every 20 years. His sense of what a generation would be. I dont think that would be a good idea. The founders with this constitution have given us a way of preserving something that was, before that time, impossible to preserve which is republican government. Government not only of the people, which all government is and not only for the people, which all government is but this rare thing, government by the people. Our problems have not come from our constitution or from our excess of fidelity to constitutional principles. Our problems, whether its racism, no matter what it is, have been a lack of fidelity to our constitutional principles. Had we honored the declarations principle that all men are created equal, we would have done away with slavery from the very beginning. We wouldnt have had jim crow. We wouldnt have had segregation. The problem wasnt the principle, it was our failure to live up to the principle. The same is true with the separation of powers. The same is true in so many other areas. An area that im concerned about is the seepage of legislative authority off to the executive branch and the agencies on the one side and off to the courts on the other side. Congress does everything but legislate. And take responsibility and be accountable for legislation. Were governed not by our elected representatives. Were not govern by ourselves through our elected representatives, were governed by people weve never heard of in bureaucratic agencies, and were governed by courts on crucial issuings. So i want to see fidelity. I want to come back to the constitutional principles we have. We dont need new ones, we need greater fidelity to the ones we have. Guest theres a wonderful book i just read called in the shadows of the american centuries written by a brother named alfred mccoy, and he makes the point that to live in an empire in which the executive branch eclipses the others in terms of its ability to engage in per progresstive per oggtive ability, its a presidency that goes hand in hand with an imperial america. We got, what, 587 bases in 42 countries and 140 special operation activities around the world, you see. So we are, in that sense, a kind of empire in a very real way. And the question becomes can government by the people, for the people and of the people survive in the face of an empire with military overreach, corruption of elites, a culture driven by market sensibilities unconcerned about the centrality of public life, common good and a rule of law that can be undercut by big money . Now, thats a serious situation, and i think it requires more than just a rewriting of a constitution, it has to do with the kind of people we are. The marvelous constitution that we had was still a proslavery document for over 80 years. The marvelous constitution after the 1880s was still very much a promonopoly, capitalist constitution and with poor people, gaining collective bargaining, the 1930s, it took that long. Argentina had it in the 1830s. And argentinas not known to be on the cutting edge of social justice. They were 100 years ahead of us. Women voted, when, 1919, 1920. So the same constitution with persons who are not prepared to fight for working and poor people can be used on behalf of the wealthy or on behalf of everyday people. Would you accept that, brother . Guest parts of it. Guest probably parts of it. [laughter] guest our military as an imperial guest well, weve been an empire, though, since guest well, you know, we, men like my father, joseph george, my fatherinlaw, irving, marched over to germany, and they defeated hitler, and they came home. Guest that was grand heroics. Guest and they didnt occupy. They werent like the roman legions, they werent like caesar. They defeated the nazi tyranny, and they came home, and they handed to the german people a democracy. They handed to the japanese people a democracy. So i think that the pictures complicated guest yeah, yeah. Guest and i do think we need to be respectful to our military. I think we need to be respectful to our veterans. Guest yes. Guest you know, a lot are feeling disrespected these days guest right, right, right. Guest and thats not good. I think all of us as americans should acknowledge whatever mistakes we have made guest but theyre following the rulers, and theyre the courageous ones willing to put their lives on the line, but its the rulers who too often dont have the kind of vision required relative to the courage of the ordinary soldiers in the country. Guest sure. Yep. Host lets hear from hassan in caramel valley, california. Caller hello, good morning, its an honor to be on your program. Mr. West put it best, if we didnt have cspan, im not sure what would have happened to us. I see that during the whole talk you two gentlemen are talking about truthtelling and the role of the family. My question is what kind of parents would you suggest you would be or your neighbors or your friends would be when they talk to their kids about sources, the main sources of the human problems right now; isis and the force of religion in our culture in this country . Isis, actually, when they chop off a reporters head or someone they arrest, believe it or not they call it [speaking in native tongue] they call it the abraham tradition. So, see, their hero is mr. Abraham that is revered by muslims and jews and christians. So if we introduce this man as a hero to our kids, then of course we will have people like isis, of course we will have failed states like iran, pakistan, israel, sudan, afghanistan. All these countries are failed institutions, failed states. And i guess, please, bear with me because you encourage your viewers to talk about the truth. So this is my version of the truth, that we have to face the fact that these failed institutions judaism and islam are failed institutions and host all right. Hassan, i think we got your point. Were almost off the time. Gentlemen, we have three minutes for that question. Guest i think we need to be very truthful with our children about all things. And when it comes to religion, the truth is that some of the greatest, most heroic, most generous things that have ever been done have been done on the basis of religious motivation and in the name of god. But the other side is some of the most dastardly, horrible things that have been done have been done on religious motives and in the name of god. Isis does act in the name of god, and as far as we can tell, that is sincere. Its horrible, its unjust, but these people, religious fanatics sincerely believe theyre doing what god wants. So theres no guarantee of justice just because youre doing it on religious motivations. Now, the rest of the truth is some of the most horrific deeds ever done in Human History have been done on a secularist motivation. The great tyranny of the 20th centuries that are responsible for the highest death tolls of any regimes in Human History were a validly secularist regimes; the nazis and the communists. So i dont think its fruitful to try to draw up a grand Balance Sheet and say on the whole religion is good or on the whole religion is bad, but to recognize that good things can be done in the name of religion and bad things can be done in the name of religion. Lets try to do good things and avoid bad things. When it comes to what i think we should all agree is the best in religion, the idea of the dignity of the human person, jews and christians understand the person made in the image and likeness of god, others may have a different way of articulating that dignity, but when we focus on religions teaching on all human beings have dignity and worth and are not reducible to the status of ants or rats, then we will do good things, then we will honor people, then we will practice virtue. Guest i think were just talking about the history of the species. Edward wilson at the end of his career he talked about what do we need, evolutionary theorist, we need something to push back our egotism, our tribalism, we need universal visions in which people can be brought together focusing on the most vulnerable. Well, thats what is the best in both religious and secular tradition. Most of Human History is a history of mendacity, criminality, hatred, envy, contempt, domination, exploitation. How do we disrupt it . And you only disrupt it by keeping alive traditions of love, of love of truth, beauty, goodness and enacting that love with the body, mind, soul, group, network, organization and democracy is one of these very difficult efforts to fuse truth and goodness and beauty so it might disrupt the longer Human History of domination. But we know imperial democracies have their own form of domination, so theyre incomplete, theyre unfinished. In the end, youve got one life to live biographically, what are you going to do in relation to your own love of truth and good theness and beauty and how it be connected, how will it be connected to others involved guest can i Say Something to parents based on my now 33 years of teaching at princeton . And that is this, parents, please, care as much care more about the integrity of your children, care more about their character, care more about who they are as human beings guest absolutely. Guest than you do about whether they get into williams or yale or princeton or ohio state or wherever it is and go on to Harvard Law School or go on to Goldman Sachs or Something Like that. Were right, as parents, to care about the professional futures and the material futures of our children. Were right to encourage them to aspear to be person aspire to be persons of high standing and make good incomes. Thats very important, im not denigrating that. But whats more important than that is character and integrity, and thats where your real focus as parents needs to be. Guest absolutely. Host Robert George of princeton, cornel west of harvard, thank you for being on booktv. Guest pleasure, thank you. Guest thank you. Its always a blessing. This brother here, indeed, indeed, indeed. Thank you so much. Good evening. It should hardly come as a surprise to anyone in this room that colleges and universities have become flashpoint for the most hated culture war conflict of the day. Universities are now the sites of our leftwing indoctrination of students and violence against conservative speakers and students, administrators literally under siege from radicalized minority students demanding social justice