Transcripts For CSPAN2 John Hechinger True Gentlemen 20171127

After this so leave your chairs where they are that would be great also we are recording this event with that question and answer portion of the program we just want to hear what you have to say and we are here for the book trump for the book true gentlemen of the Fraternity System across the country that have been getting a lot of publicity but specifically sigma Alpha Episilon with those under graduate brothers representatives have been extreme where we listening to john today with this . And also a finalist for the pulitzer two years ago to enjoy dinner conversation today as the top editor for Higher Education and the Washington Post contributor [applause] it is great to be here. So we will open for questions. How many if you are in fraternities . , and if you are parents . To get about third in fraternities. Were you in a fraternity . With a series of stories that Bloomberg News and when i was finished i found myself with all these questions, why did so men desperately want to join these organizations when putting their lives at risk essentially . Why did many of those young men get a lot from fraternitys but the headlines are so awful . That is a mystery to me. Did it hurt you were not in a fraternity in terms of your reporting . I was always asked solon of the extraordinary things about reporting is focusing heavily on sigma Alpha Episilon, the fraternity itself is very open to exploration. I was introduced dat meetings that i attended it was clear they called sae the deadliest fraternity but there were open to show me their archives and basically at everything that i could. They get help to have a fresh look at the fraternity it would have agreed to share my undergraduate experience. Looking through the history of fraternities and secret societies end they were segregated but it took longer to integrate to be very white or not very friendly to gays but what about their history did you find interesting not only the secret societies but segregated . They started off with Higher Education was essentially white male than with women and minorities they kept themselves as white male organizations creating a system where the newcomers found their own organizations, a jewish fraternities, catholics and womens fraternities or sororities. The system is a direct reflection with the extraordinary amount of segregation. Given where society is going to be much more diverse that they make up a large majority on most campuses of 60 . And then and that is the contradiction and then with 400,000 members 50,000 more than a decade ago. And there is a challenge in terms of men having less of a presence not achieving at the same level as women on College Campuses but it is essential to college life. They often end control the social life and the network is just unbelievable to move second to politics but the grade point average tends to go down but your earnings go up by more than a third. [laughter] that is the advantages to joining. So just how big the fraternities are. With the business of fraternitys owning property, how many schools have them and of those that do,. They have 3 billion. The quarter of a Million Students and the largest landlords with the National Organizations. With 4 million alumni with a disproportionate role in government. Going back to a the history of a secret society tucked away and did the beginning colleges wanted nothing to do with them. As that counterculture was a change of the drinking age. Now these places could have of all where the storms could not which will solidified the drinking but it has always been a pretty strong part of the culture even going back 100 years. Haven the founder of sae maybe died of alcohol. 1856 sae was founded at university of alabama but the founder was a brilliant student valedictorians going to the seminary becoming a chaplain and and he died but then it appeared he was swept away into the water he was found days later there is no evidence she was drinking it is maurer fraternity lower. So is suggest that one of the most important leaders was a temperance advocate. In the 1500 page history the help me write the book and is very against fraternities. En with the cathedral like building it is like these to science and bin and refund this jeff condemned by College President s from the beginning that has been that way from the beginning. Q mnuchin condemned it has the office of greek life even though despite all the problems they seem to have her embrace them and when you look on the web sites nobody talks about the issues with this great feeling that your children that Higher Education has a lovehate relationship. That is a big selling point to the outofstate students like indiana because of the social life centered on fraternities. And then they become the most loyal voters. Making up 90 percent of alumni of the 60 percent of donors. They are loyal with a great deal of of power to attract students and they are promoted on these campuses their palatial mountains mansions that are appeasing then when something goes wrong the universities will be pretty . To condemn them that is true. So who is responsible . Do parents rarely understand hundreds or thousands of miles away . Wannabe issues i looked at what is insurance. That is how we started looking at fraternities and one of the problem since the 80s is the they had trouble getting insurance because the risk is just like a toxic waste dump. So fraternities really struggled with this and the solution was to craft insurance policies that excluded drinking and hazing and Sexual Assault. You dont want to subsidize that. Is somebody terrible happens and there is a lawsuit the Fraternity Members that doesnt cover them it covers the National Organization but they are on their own in these losses can drag on for years. So parents have to tap into the homeowner policy to hire the lawyers and pale settlements. And most parents dont know that. Definitely not. The title of the book true gentlemen comes from a the creed of sae which the beginnings as the true gentleman is the conduct from goodwill and the acute sense so you think these are supposed to be gentleman who are supposed to act well but as you note in the book all of the incidences of alcohol, death, other incidents stemming from our call, a Sexual Assaults, how bad is it . And how does it compare if most people with fraternities will say it is no worse than Everything Else on campus. That is a pervasive problem. What happens is no worse than the rest. So is that happening any worse . We definitely hear that a lot there is the sense among Fraternity Members because they are higher profile there held to account with the problem drinking but this is problem on campus no doubt but the social science researchs clear that fraternitfraternit why men drink more than anyone else on campus. They binge drink at twice the level of other members with study after study that shows this if you are worried about the drinking problems certainly it is the place to look but in terms of Sexual Assaults the best data i confine shows fraternity parties themselves women who frequent fraternity parties are one and a half times the risk of Sexual Assault. What i am not clear if a lot of Sexual Assaults involve the overall environment and that is what fraternity parties are like or something about the culture of the fraternities themselves in terms of consent that there is a lot of cases of disturbing emails that become public. Isnt part of a the problem and try to attract as many women as possible houses with many rooms, they get them to drive them it is part of the culture and planning of these events . Many times it is invite only but that is usually that all women are welcome so that you have a very high ratio of women to men which is another reason to join the fraternity to have access to these parties. But you have under age bartenders people away from home for the first time, that is make Sexual Assault a particular outcome. To me that shows there is a serious problem. Talk about the stories in the book about a specific incidents and there is one case in bin court know where they leave the guy on the couch overnight he is dead in the morning. We have seen more recent incidents where cameras captured the student that died and it makes you wonder with those students at cornell part of sae, it is a selective school, athletes school, athletes, coming from varying backgrounds but what happens in this environment that logic does not kick and . In all of these cases is seems there is a moment in reading the reports somebody says maybe we should go to the hospital or do something but then groupthink takes over and they go on pouring alcohol. What happens . Is there something you saw as a pattern with the kids that ended up dying . Did anybody say we should stop . Mentioning penn state there were a lot of students in february you said we really should and i think there is a problem that if you report you have been drinking then perhaps the University Shutdown dutch chapter so there is underage drinking and the chapter lies to the university and everybody then somebody gets really drunk and it is dangerous there is a decision made that he will be okay and sleep better off we have all passed out and it will be fine. There justice and the recognition how dangerous this is. There are so many cases the most dangerous hazing is you take a freshman who doesnt know his alcohol tolerance and give him a bag of liquor and tell him to finish it calling it a challenge. You pray on their insecurities and one of the chapters involved in maryland i spoke with for hours and hours really got a sense of why he stuck with it. He really wanted the social life. He thought it was a way to succeed, and work on wall street and once he suffered the early indignities, he was strapped in a basement for nine hours listening to some horrible music. [laughter] he was a prisoner forced to drink and beaten with up paddle so why would you continue . He said i have already done this they keep telling me it will not get worse. But that is the other thing it is hard to stop. You lose your free will. The story is fascinating the tissue grew up in Montgomery County but his whole life changed largely because in these few weeks to pledge a fraternity can you talk about that went into a whole different direction . He wanted to join he didnt just drop out he reported this to the police and eventually he did not pursue that as far but the school to their credit found out and started a disciplinary proceeding documented the hazing he was telling us about. His name got out and was harassed by other Fraternity Members and people said he was lying and to this day we can find people who say it didnt happen and i looked at this for a long time and found another witness who said absolutely i was in the basement with him and the school said it happened but it is hard by the end he didnt want to stay there. Key went to the university of maryland and then stayed at home. He says he has nightmares and it can be pretty traumatic. As a typical reporter we just talked about some pretty bad things so i heard some of your callin shows you have done. It is interesting people will always called to say your focuses focused on the negatives so what about the great things . Talk about the positives. The Positive Side is important. Historically when reading of college rethink of the residential experience, liberal arts studying topics useful to our careers, networking of fraternities help to create that environment for colleges. When they started there were social fraternities but in the early 19th century colleges was a dreary place no place to live, studying greek and latin, they were literary societies of american poetry shall they wanted to create a College Experience and that continues today if you are at tens of thousands of people it isnt easy of lots felt it gave them a group of friends and a family. There is some research that shows members of fraternities report a higher sense of wellbeing and feel better prepared for life more loyal to their universities. You had a figure from indiana of the percentage . 19 of alumni the 60 percent of daughters and that is pretty common. That is an interesting point. Twenty years of covering Higher Education one of the things against reform are the alums who are pretty powerful or on the boards of trustees and when you say we want to change athletics or fraternities you cannot do that because that was my College Experience. Do you sent since that lovehate relationship is the issue of many are powerful . And big donors so it is hard to reform with their in powerful positions . That is sure the sauls Barry University case the founder of the chapter withdrew a 2 million donations about was a real consequence to the university. With a lot like, there is the split and some are very upset that fraternities are losing track of their founding values of true gentlemen that sae been working hard to figure of the way for word. I see a very recent president who will work very hard on this to find different ways to move forward i focused on and sae because after all the deaths more than any other fraternity, they decided to ban pledging which is where most of the death had happened period a half years ago. And have not had a death since. Their insurance rates have gone down the losses have diminished it is like 90 percent drop. One of the of messages of the of book and wanted to send it has gone on for a long time but there are strands that people can look at they can focus on alcohol there are those within the of fraternities to want to work with the colleges in just this week all State University Fraternity Council agreed campus wide they would move to a band of parties with alcohol. Seems like a really good place to start, the banning the theres also i think some promise in saying freshman first semester freshman year is not a good time to join a from a turnty wait until second semester. Thats there are a number of colleges that have tried that. With the thought that you know, that is the most dangerous time for a young man. So thats another possibility. I was also amazed at how little data there was how Little Information you could find about what was actually happening. So i proposed it that the colleges would, you know, have public listingses of where Sexual Assaults have occurred over at least reports of Sexual Assaults or alcohol related hospitalizations by fraternities, fraternities are now disclosed grade point averages a enthats actually l been effect of in materials they compete with each other to have reasonable grade point average or highest and also compete for, you know, having safest fraternity thats true about demographics. You know about with its not wiewdzly known that there are Fraternity Chapters that dont have black members. I went to alabama there were a number that had never had a black member not that thats something that should be made public and push from a turnties to change. Question. To what extents does the sorority culture is it linked does it parallel or inhabit a separate universe . You talk about that a little bit . One of the things about very arety that is interesting is in the 60s when when fraternities basically decided not to have in house advisors and not to have that much adult supervision sororities kept they have basically inhouse adult living in every chapter. And they also almost all sororities ban ban alcohol in the chapter. So there are no parties with alcohol in the chapter but actually chapters are a lot nicer like all trashed you know, listen to that. [laughter] and you just dont see that many alcohol related deaths at sororities. So theyre a lot safer so now when they go to Fraternity Party at high risk there have been studying showing like three times you live in a sorority you might be three times the risk for rape. So thats kind of a mixed bag. So i think that if both from aty and sorority had same approach i think fraternities qowb safer. To what extent are fraternities religiously not segregated in my day i did not belong to a fraternity but jewish fraternities and a gentile fraternity has at all changed is there any fac for example . Yes, one of the main figures in the book brad cone who was one of the leaders who called or for the pledge he was the first jewish president of fae so definitely theres been progress on that front. Sp especially since, you know, one of the chapters looks at the 1950s when you know, before 1951 there was a clause in the law it is that said that you had to be an arien to be a member of fc and neither parent could be a fulled blooded jew, and it was pretty and that was highly debated. They dropped that clause in 1919 but in the suspect i found in a hearing they were doing it for publicly for Public Relations and they kept discriminating for years after. But now, i mean, ting that the religious i dont hear that much about religious but you with hear some fraternities in general antismettic episodes, and there still are jewish historically jewish fraternities but i think now the issue really is more is more an issue of issue of race i went to convention a big debate about addings a not discrimination clause. And at first members lined up and said you know, we dont want to have but you needed a twothirds vote to pass, and the members talked to each other you know minority members particularly were extremely upset about this. And they went back the next morning, and there were pees passionate speeches including from Steve Churchill here in the audience about how this isnt who we are. We have had this history. We need to address it. And it completely changed. They added the discrimination clause certainly they dropped they dropped discrimination clause. And it was really a dramatic moment there was a huge applause so you can kind of see that theres been some change. Thank you very much. Built on last thing you gave in the book it seems like you exposed a lot of historic or racist actions by fraternity about National Organization may not have known about. Have been any response after your book kale out from the fraternity about what they wanted to in response to it . About in materials of the historical response . Yeah. Ive had conversations where i think there are there are leaders who would like, would like this to be addressed, i mean, one of the issues that i came across is that Leadership School is named after this guy mosley who was a major figure and he was really adamant about keeping segregation all colleges are voling with this but i think it is important to recognize and to tell people, you know, that these leaders have these flaws because there could be a blind spot. Its a good point. Inch thank you for your work weve always been told the adage that sunday mornings and some saturdays are your most seg regated time in the United States of america and now this is in the churches okay. So now it looks like they minute running neck and neck with some of the fraternity and never given much thought to that. But certainly thank you for your work and thank mr. Church hill and saying so that we can give him some applause. My question is what did they substitute in place of you know, the banning of, you know, hazing and banning because they do something. So now what do it they do and are there offcampus and secret meetings or whatever to substitute if for that . Well what thats a good question. They do something. So with pledging the way that its supposed to work you make them an immediate offer and they become full members not a lot of timed to any kind of facing ands theres not supposed to be any kind of servitude. Now a lot of members said this cant be enforced like you were saying and there was concern to hurt a long tradition of this in military in the you know you dont want people boys will be boys. Boys will be boys. [laughter] and a you know, if i not to put steve on the spot but saying it is not like we we probably know that not every rule is followed all of the time and probably some hazing going on but its clear that theres less. I mean, thats really, that is really, you know, o the data is pretty inconvertible the chapters are now safer. So if it is all or nothing in my mind if you save some lives make good progress. Good question. This is a serious issue, and you know, certainly from a Health Medical perspective that is very serious. Okay, thank you so much, in fact, mr. Church hill whatever you are [applause] yeah. My question is also about hazing. Three or four years ago the story came to light about a hazing death at florida a m. It was not involving a fraternity per se it was involving a marching band. And many people had no idea that hazing was going on. In such organization, i mean, i never heard of it in a chess club, i mean, im just wondering in research your book did you uncover any other sort of pun expected hazing ritual that other organizations on campus . Thats a good question. There was a study from the university of maine that looks into this, and what it found is that had about three quarters of members of greek organizations found said thaifs been hazed or at least described behavior that amounted to hazing that was the most of anyone on campus except for rs varsity athletes a lot of hazing among varsity athletes neck and neck and theres definitely hazing performing arts, bands, you know theres theres thats been a big problem. Theres probably theres less hazing in other o organizations. And of course there are i think the chess club is probably relatively safe. [laughter] when i showed in 1968 during orr yen there was a beer truck and you know drinking is not necessarily just in fraternities so thats one point. The other is i was one of 14 members of rochester, which is very unlike a lot of other houses which are mostly the jocks say usc or whatever, we went down to atlanta to our convention, and got rid of the black ball against blacks and so theres quite a diversity among even fraternities isnt there . You make a really good point theres hundred of chapters like seae and you the during Civil Rights Era local chapters some of them say were going to break away and were not going to do this and you mention black ball that is this is black ball is requiring unanimous consent to ask to for someone to become a member. And that that was used as a way to basically keep or black and jewish members and it was very Heart Disease and that changed over time and a lot of there were a lot of local chapters that at least gradually become more diverse i think youre right. Our chapter in rochester was heavily jewish and everything and we rushed first black in sigma chi that was 69, and so that was kind of neat. [laughter] i found fraternity experience to be great managing your house, and trying to make sure that the cook couldnt find his secretive bottles and and you know, we visit him in the hospital or whenever he was and keep track of the dog, and you know, it was a great experience. [laughter] and that should not be discounted there was stories in the book about young man whose mother was dying of breast cancer, and whose Fraternity Brothers offered him unbelievable support and even made her member on his deathbed saying hell never forget that and feel like theyre his brothers and you do i came across a lot of examples like that where it is really meaningful. So i think question is whether it can be disentangled from drinking and all of these other certainly seems like it is qort a shot. Thank you. Thank you. So i know you talked about about drinking reform. But it seems to me that theres sort of like this larger and problem about the attitude and women in minorities, like for instance, the college i went to was known as Sexual Assault expected. So basically im just wondering like do you think that these reforms are actually going to change the attitudes the negative attitudes and perceptions that Fraternity Members do have and what do you think reforms will be u enough to do that. And thats a really good question and theres a chapter in the book called Sexual Assault expected. I kind of explore that, and and what i found is that its its so hard to even get data or to figure out which assault happen so many of them arent reported it is a huge, huge problem, and the surveys show some pretty disturbing attitudes towards women which do have a long history. Theres a certainly aspect you know, again and again comes out, and you know, my view is these are important and i think Fraternity Men are held to account more given what theyre seeing it in terms of Sexual Harassment and assault and hollywood and the media. I think that those thats going to put more and more pressure in the meantime, though, it seem like you dont want, you dont want Fraternity Men under age Fraternity Men controlling all of the alcohol and parties at the a school because its those attitudes take a long time to change. But theres, you know, two current definitely women are making strides in terms of raising awareness about Sexual Assault, and its got to make a big difference. In welt next question, thank you. What about idea of some schools are turning dominate in terms of percentage that belong there and otherses are small. How much of this plays into kind of the social aspect then when it dominates or doesnt dominate disease it change kind of the nature of campus . I think so. If you have somewhere between 30 and 50 or o even 25 of the big school and a you know they have some of the best real estate on campus and they have, you know the best or really only party yours experience at the school will be defined whether youre a member of the fraternity or not, and, i mean, one of a lot of schools are trying to think about can we have alternatives can we build houses free housing so nice that people might choose it. Theres all kinds of ways that that could change. Question here. Read most of the book i havent seen anything about parents. [laughter] i wonder if theres anying indication or any knowledge about what role parents do or dont play in preparing their youngsters men in this case to behave properly in college. Home for the first time. Well, we have a son who was so appalled by what he saw at the university to which he went that he wrote an essay about it chfsz published in the student newspaper. He thought that was the wrong thing to do now he didnt learn that at the university. I just wonder we didnt give hill a lot of moral instruction it just wasnt necessary. But i keep feeling you know parents have a responsibility to teach morality to their kids, of course, religious institutions play a role in that if the parents happen to be participants in a lnls community which most americans now are not. But i wonder about that. Its a great question that goes back to a mentality even if you have one or two people who just believe that something is wrong, its really hard to push against that. Well i think i didnt mention this before but theres a legal change in starting in the 60s, and colleges no longer were considered, you know, standin hads for parents in local and so college is now that gave students more right and hard to discipline with due process many these cases which is they can cite. And the parent so college arent really in the same kind of parental role and one thing that i feel strongly about is it doesnt make sense to have freshman move without an adult living there or at least under very strict adult supervision because you have this possibility that flies and one of the a later chapter in the book where a young man really sort of take this is chapter, troubled chapter in ohio state you unders wing and really make it is his kind of calling to sort of molds behavior on him about how to treat people. How to treat women, you know, under his guidance,ed chapter president actually turned in a brother for because of what he thought was disturbing. Disturbing behavior toward women. So yeah so parents need to ask a lot of questions perhaps even talk about how they might be you know, that there could be real consequences they could be expel ed and a lot of that but i think parents have a role also adults thank you. Why haze hadding continues it seems to me something much deeper than tradition, and just really curious about why it doesnt stop. Well it is a great question. You know, first of all it goes back to English Boarding School and desire for older men to kind of abuse the younger men and to atheir power, and i think if you sets up a program where the older, the older students have any kind of power over the younger students like that it is inevitably whats. Theres, you know, theres this whole concept of, you know, very rigid kind of rigid notions of masculinity that is enforced through hazing with a lot of Good Research on that. And you know the fraternities in particular i think you know once college became coed there was kind of a sort of fear of being looked at as, you know, theres homophobia basically enforce this view of sort of macho view that youre a tough marine whatever and so that weak will be tossed out hipped enforce that, and so it has really tough and military has had a lot of trouble getting rid of hazing. But what happens is theyve been trying to get rid of hazing since 30s and 40s start out with not doing hell week that is the last week where, you know kra sen doe of violation against younger kids to okay to do light hazing and i think sort of this true zero tolerance policy really is the only way. Thank you for addressing this subject does it go into black fraternity and does it go into drug use on on from a tern since some places plairn is now legal. Thats a good question. I talk about africanamerican fraternity in terms of the history of the exclusion behavior of historically white fraternities. And also in terms of the hazing of black fraternities which has been a huge problem. Its interesting its actually typically different kind of hazing its much more much more physical abuse. So cases of peat beaten by 2 by four much less focused on drinking, and where most has happened and it is a serious problem. The drinking is actually less of a less of an measure in africanamerican from a are ternty than historic. A new question behind you but i want to make sure we get questions because did you look at legacy and it comes to mind because when someone scdz about parents, i mean many of the leadership and faculty on College Campuses and stuff and even with these fraternities are members as are maybe their grandparents and great imrpts. So did you look at that this terms of tradition . Legacy a big issue and one of the about reason why theres segregation especially in schools very is strong, old Fraternity Culture i have a chapter about university of alabama where fraternities recruit in high school and same theater schools and so if you come from, you know, if youre a first generation student, your energy is probably not a space for you when you come until and that makes it very, very difficult so i think the whole legacy issue is big, in fact, in ohio state sort of this fraternity that turns itself around the they stopped looking at legacy they said were going to pick them, the men we want and we dont care theyre fathers or grandfathers it make a big difference thats a good point. Hi, i dont have a question churchill called me out couple of times and [laughter] you know, i went to school iowa State University and i joined because i wanted to be able to make friends when i was this school a great experience for me so i served on board for ten years. But when i first joined our board we didnt have a huge issue with deaths that related to alcohol because they really became compounded that we looked at that. When i was in school we didnt really drink hard alcohol in the drinking ailing was 19 and when the drinking age went to 21 at iowa state two things happened one is fraternities became bears because there was no really safe place for people to drink, and second was fraternity outlawed text, and because they wanted to make sure that people arent drinking too much. But what happened . Went to hard alcohol. We have not had one single death i dont know if fraternity has either through beer. Beer does a lot of things to cause you to act stupid but does not necessarily lead to death so thats interesting. You know, i wasnt sure what to think when you said you were running the book i think that you did an accurate job i didnt enjoy every page of the book. But i learned a lot. Theres a lot i learned about my fraternity and given us the gift to look at that heifers because sometimes you say even the students that are in college saying we debated whether or not it was necessary to have protection for individuals and bylaws in materials of descridges a lot discriminationg i dont see that but not a part of the Civil Rights Movement and dont see it but they see the book they can say theres a history here and given us a teaching tool that is really painful but when you talk about relation in our fraternity it is not just issue for that but for the United States of america this is an issue that were all struggling with. Now fraternities were not a leader in the Civil Rights Movement but i think we were pretty much where the country was at that time as country is evolved we have e but it takes Leaders Organization to say you know what, this is important were going to try to make a difference. So you know, thanks for doing a fair job with the book. And i think it will be a great tool across the country. Thank you, and thank you so much for your help with this it wouldnt have been without being so open, and do you think most members agree with him on terms of the fairness of the book . Thats a god question. Im not sure they do. Well, no i dont know that you can dispute what youve written. It is what it is. You know you to go it right out of the to like the fact that it was written probably not everyone appreciates it. But i havent heard anyone talk about its accuracy in materials the not being accurate so it had a good positive end and so in terms of a hopeful future that things can change but with the right type of leads youre at the convention imh you look around that room pretty Diverse Group of students. The alumni were not so diverse thats half of the voting members that challenging part when you lock at that group of students it looked like a pretty Diverse Group. So anyway. No thats true. I mean, you make a good point if you look at the history of Higher Education you look at places like, you know, harvard yale and princeton, its pretty ugly. You know, the comments about about whos in minority and you know a lot of resistance to women web and theyve changed. I think thats possible that from a tern is could too and i think maybe there are later because by the, you know, 69, 70 schools start to change. Brought up a good point saying you joined because you wanted friends and frank had this piece in the times about first year students and it is a real struggle for first year students particularly for men. Women this is i think a key difference between fraternity and Sorority Women tend to be able to find their social next on campuses especially in the first couple of weeks but men are struggling and men are struggling in high per education. Could this be a real role for fraternities in materials of that social so in some ways youre talking about reform maybe they shouldnt pledge the first semester of a freshman year but at the same time thats when they might be most needed. Pledgets thats what fraternities would argue. Theres a lot of resistance to that because theyll say that, you know, you better outcome if people have that kind of might drop out. Theres definitely some part of that. And then i mentioned that you mention sororities interesting i dont know steve you saw that study recently that from Union College that Fraternity Membership increase here your earnings by a third. It was what was really interesting that wasnt true about sororities. And one of the one of the hypotheses that researchers had is that women without sororities are actually still pretty good at coming up with network and finding support. And men just maybe theyre not. And this this is actually really, really helpful you know, i dont know that probably needs more research. [laughter] nobody behind you so i think were wrapping up. John any last thoughts anything we didnt talk about in the conversation . You want to add . Trying to think, we did cover a lot. Let me ask you a question i asked if brothers would think the same thing in materials of fairness. What im shocked about is that they cooperated with this. Like how thats surprise you that you would get their cooperation . I mean, it didnt surprise me later in the process because after writing the series about, you know, the deadliest from a from a turnty i did a story where i was also welcomed in and i knew that brad cone and Steve Churchill were up for this. You know, and extraordinary i never written like an investigative series about an organization and had had reaction you heard from steve which is that this is helpful we need, we need this. We can use this to educate people. And so thats it that make me hopeful and you know i think thats a thats a testament to, you know, a desire for real reform. Gentleman its a great read very well written as well and please join me in thanking john for that all. Thank you. [applause] cspan where history unfolds daily. In 1979 cspan was created as a Public Service for americas Cable Television company and brought to you today by your cable on satellite provider. Up next on booktv afterwards daily call or News Foundation editor in chief christopher examines donald trump leadership as a businessman, politician, and president of the United States. Hes interviewed by robert, xm radio host and political analyst. Why did you decide to write the book . Because people around the me didnt get it. Journalists who often take themselves very seriously they theyre supersmart and understand the world were frequently understilting donald trump being surprised by things that he did, and being incorrect in prediction because of this. At the beginning when he first started to run this round i have kind of assumed to make a splash gotten some publicity not been serious, and i