To personally welcome you to the texas book festival in austin, texas when the greatest book festival in the united states. My name is brian sweany, proud member of the texas book festival comest you can totally trust me when i say that. We are here with an esteemed panel to writers that i very much admire for a panel called falsehoods, forgeries and fake news. I often think times person of the year may very well be fake news, something that comment our language. Fake news is maybe the city of houston which is sent to you we can advocate for. Fake news has become so ingrained in every aspect of our lives in terms of how we Consumer Media and understanding political discourse in the large decision going forward. Id like to introduce our panel today an esteemed writer and poet karen young. Kevin young, author of several books. The latest we will be discussing today is called bob, the rise of postaccident fake news. How can you not want to read that . Kevin also started on wednesday as the new poetry editor of the new yorker. Very little going on. Welcome to austin. The fund is another writer and novelist, jerry d. Sexton. His book is called people are going to rise like the waters upon your short. Terrific work, jerry. His work has appeared in the new york times, new york republic salon and is currently creative writing professor at Georgia Southern university. Please welcome jared and kevin. It is absolutely a pleasure to have you here in reading both of your books reminded me why it to a books like this so much because of the deep storytelling and analysis to his days reading them together because he takes us back to the 19th century and things like for a jury and humbugs and fake news and jared gives us a much more of them in an approach based on what he saw during the 2016 election and how that is carried forward into our everyday discourse. I will tell you jared is not shy of twitter if you check out his twitter account. I want to start with canada going back to the beginning of the book was a wonderful american character is the name of pt barnum. One of those things i know a little bit about the one to dive into the book relies how much you didnt know when also what you identify as the penny papers of the penny press and how much they reminded you of the modernday internet and its working in 1835 when he exhibited a woman and he claimed george they are good whether she was real or whether she was actually a flash in god for automatic con for a lot of things that are too are strange, but also barnums reach and his power. Also sort of at the time was a slave and so there is this real question that is working out in the penny papers is one of the places he did so. Around the same time pretended someone had spotted people more like beavers and i think the penny papers are like the internet in the sense they promised this democratic world or access to it for other people. They often also relied on as the way we do, that people read the penny press papers for this kind of excitement, said in a little different in the internet functions the same way as breads pretty widely and fast. At the time, other papers or 5cent, so five times as much and people picked up papers like we news today. A lot of relation to it in a traced the hoax to that only 10 is there something american is something we need to know that is told they are in barnum offered us a chance to be an expert in this democratic process of choosing whether something was real or not and that is sort of still with us, but also changed quite a bit. That is certainly one of the things we want to talk about is the internet as a democratizing tool, but tremendous all that has been everyone has their own publisher said there is real value as a former journalist myself and not having filters have been able to have direct access but also what the downside is. Could you jump us forward about 150 years and youre driving up to iowa to cover the caucuses. One of the things i was struck by, told jerry did the backroom i know he is a writer because part of the reason he took on political writing was he was trying to put off finishing a novel he was putting on. Nothing like putting on a put up a project they taken another one. He went to iowa and watch the caucuses in one of the things he found there, the commonality between them was this really an attempt in her. The electorate was really angry. Can you set the tone for your arrival at what you saw. Sure. I was in the middle of writing a novel that have ballooned out of control. It was like frankensteins monster that had gone dionne did he think i can do in true writer fashion i procrastinated to cover the election which i thought which i followed before and i thought it would come down to liquid to gibberish and i thought it would do this as a hobby. But then i started noticing the trunk and hated going to these rallies and the thing that shocked me as i started to see the movement at its heart was being fueled by people like my family. My family is a workingclass family from Southern Indiana and a lot of the things i hear these trump rallies, a lot of the drumbeats of anger paranoia with things my family would say. I started covering the Trump Campaign because i didnt want that of the american discourse. I love my family but i did not want them to be the leverage of power. So i started noticing that this anger they had which a lot of people have now started to use this phrase left behind or economic anxiety. Such by families Industrial Site there is, Prison Guards come at the exact document they are angry about the state of their lives, but also manipulated by larger power to basically appealed to the worst instincts and i started to see my family who started posting my supremacist views and now that weve learned propaganda for russia and other places i started to realize that to to realize that to prove it to realize the truth but werent powered backpack. To the sense it coming through that election were used in good examples are reported in discourse balanced by terrible examples are reported to discourse . How would you rate the quality will we saw because part of the dynamic has been decided to leave the bull us versus them dynamic that part of the countries wanting to mislead you and not telling you the truth while the other side says the rest of the country is trying to mislead you would not tell you the truth. Did you see anything that inspired you at the same time of day decided disappointed you . The thing people keep asking is what is the hope and the hope is that when i talk to people i dont agree with politically when we have a conversation human to human we can find ground to build trust. I can tell you the truth of it which is roughly 30 of the country are inoculated at this point. They do not trust regular media. They do not trust is edited as invoices. Theyve been walled off and that is one of the harder things to undo. The thing that interests me and i came to believe in the penny press always started with race. It always was linked with questions of race and hope itself became a function of race and also race itself was kind of built on this notion that its false. How did these things grow up together and become intertwined intimately entangled that in my book tries to understand the origins of bad and i hope you are talking about ive yearned for and also wonder about because there is this connection. Speed up the essential progress we make or break for as we have is always a downside to it. Because weve carried this racial undercurrent throughout our entire American Experience there is no way to escape it going forward. I was going to say i completely agree with kevin particularly with my family. This is a database table youre talking about. My family has a lot of racism but they are in total denial of the racism. These are people who say im not racist but. What are the biggest strengths of the Trump Campaign and the way they harness the movement was they gave the excuse you are not racist. You see the world as it is indicate that that excuse. Youre exactly right at the heart of all of this is this really, really see discussing racism that allows a cognitive dissonance that allows the fake news and propaganda to come in. Its exactly part of it. The hoax depends on race which is what i almost suspected because they started researching the book in a relay throw pervasive that was the term fake news becomes this big word to describe something true where there is propaganda or fake ads are fake news that, but that its also what fascinated me was an accusation that as you said sort of challenges other truth it becomes quickly fake news is just news i dont like. But you get to call it fake because you dont like it. Also this incredible power to this fake news. One of the things they talk about with the rise of trump is the fake news that people like my family were getting told them that they were racist and they would have to actually come to the cognitive dissonance at the heart of this is incredibly hard to defeat because for you to understand the news as it is is you have to understand you have an inherent racial privilege which changes the entire nature of a persons life. All of a sudden you have to realize the world is different than you thought it was to do so much easier to accept the fake news even while you know that its fake. Deep down you have to have the instincts and thats why its so potent and powerful. Im curious in terms of you say a very personal book for you. What is your familys response been to it what are the oneonone i can only imagine the holidays. What are those conversation like . Im the weirdo in my family. Theyve always kind of looked at me as, you know, the outsider. Ive had these conversations with them and he said as i start to cover the thing i would get desperate for my reported cannot go home and my family would have a trump big upfront that i would go in and they say people are threatening to kill the debate go fake news. [laughter] so its been very odd. I do feel like because ive been able to talk to them ive been able to curb some of their worst instincts, but at the same time they are weary of me. There is a word cultural gap there. It seems to my sense is ultimately the currency of the term is going to die out at some point, that its tried to be used as this impervious shield to not just news that is truly fake as we saw during the 2016 election in a lot of different forms, but also news you just dont like cover that you throw that up as the shield. With you we talked about this happening on the right through this, but it isnt the exclusive ownership of only one side. When you factor history are there other examples that jump out to you that feels that as it feels no critical are vital to the National Discussion . I what is fascinating is the way folks crop up in different times. Very much farther than others were capturing a moment over the u. S. Is trying to understand its history, connect to a path and sometimes having to admit it is grace or however they want to think of it. In a way its very much a continuum of people trying to understand and i think of it as political about power, connections and who can hoax first in a way sometimes come of that very much between the way i came to understand that in todays saying. It is that why we deceive, the way we believe. So try to understand the gap you talk about, why people believe the white girl from Orange County of the southcentral gang member and so herbivore which happened in 2008, why did james frye stole trillions of copies of his book when it so obviously not real if you step back in the hoax tells us of the interesting because as soon as it disappears it gets harder and harder to do. We went to kind of believe this stuff. Kind of the worst things about each other. Sir, let us continue, please. We will continue. I apologize for that disruption. As i was a come a lot of things are hard to debug. It tells us Something Interesting about what we believe. I use the term way because we all have a stake in it. Im not trying to to to understand assigned or anything. Im trying to understand why there is this constant believing. Its weird that fake news just came to her payroll. Is by family members. Uncle billy, come back. Its always good to catch up. [laughter] i think its fascinating now talking about pizza gate, which is so absurd and laughable. So that whole thing, again this goes back to confirmation bias. We are in a polarized time in this country was divided what people believe is so great that we have people who stayed here in talk about liberals as if they are all criminals and satanists in evil, evil people and confirmation bias. If you are a pure talking about liberal ideas in fake news that you are a or Something Like that. That is how deep this is now. It could lead to those things that keep the gate and thank god no one died there. We are looking at a ticking time another example for me though as powerful as rachel dolezal, the way person who is head of the naacp because she painted her skin and did her hair quite well. [laughter] but she troubled me. A week later there were the charleston murderers. I try to understand in a part of the book that considers this the connection between the two which was it just to be chronology, but they both misunderstand blackness in a certain way is a tragic thing could rachel doles all im going to take that on as a figure of trauma, but also the lead roof prayed i bet not to say his name out loud, prayed with people, but not being able to put together their prayed with him and i found very common in the church in kansas where he went to church with linda brown of brown v. Board piano teacher. This is where the heart of civil rights came and they accepted him and then he shot the ball. The cognitive dissonance is at play of the hoax because the hoax of race affected them each in different ways, but also brought them to this essential trauma affiliated with blackness and i really troubled me because misunderstanding each other, but the hoax is making use of the deep division in our culture. I really glad you brought up the charleston tragedy because in america we are really bad at putting things that cant tax. The tragedy will happen you will forget about it a couple weeks later. But murderers in charleston or link to what we are going through right now. Until a group who did it, but we have to understand he was completely radicalized by fake news. Would you read his manifesto in the writings he left behind, he had educated himself. This is a person who had gone online and found one site that he had been so inundated with it i had to do this. All because he had been radicalized by fake news. What we talk about things like like charlottesville and the guests weve had, we forget the people of charleston were murdered because of their ms does it stop in 2016, 2017. Goes back a lot time in florida long time. It seems to me what you think of those tragedies that we are all directly affect the diet. A lot of us are able to see through it and when i say that i want to be clear on the left and right, but the real danger which has been pointed out time and time again to the margins of our society, particularly vulnerable for Mental Illness to alonso of hopelessness come in the actions of one person can be profoundly tragic for it is the people around them and that is where the danger is when we see these people act out beyond what has gone to deterioration of discourse and the erosion of trust we have in so many of our in the tuition that i think we need. We desperately need a fully functioning government. We desperately need a First Amendment in press. We need these things. [applause] thank you. I retain the chips away, even if it seems like a little bit here and there, i worry we are losing something we are not going to recover. I was a journalist for 20 years here in austin and loved my job and cover it but it did seem with the rise of the internet that every story we did it was harder and harder to Breakthrough Research mail to my wife used to say you worked so hard on certain stories or certain issues that are seemingly nonpolitical and a double at the commenters come in and hijack it. I remember reading something about the weather that defaulted to a discussion of president obama which you did not make it rain. That was the problem. This sort is sitting right beside us that we begin to lose our ability to reason. I like very much which is what you is what you instead which is what we feel ourselves off through twitter accounts or social media where we are only with people like minded to ourselves, we wouldve the sense of the person next to us was a good decent person even if they dont share our beliefs. I think both things are true, which is journalism has been really important in uncovering Sexual Assault and making people aware of things that they might have been aware of that now have these consequences. I hate to say we are in this tragic moment of journalism, but at the same time there is this perhaps it goes even further to thinking about what is object to the d. . Is that a problem . I talk about this in the book because it had the effect of how we think about these. They are doing finish of accuracy as our goal. Sometimes it means what you think about slavery . Was it okay . You because its true that where there is a debate about the weather as you put it or the changing of the weather. We have to step back a little bit and not think about journalism or the internet because we built the internet appeared we made it and got the internet we deserved or at least some of us deserved. At the same time, penny press had the same problems. There is a more interesting night teen century selfawareness. You knew you were being a little bit entertained. There was an awareness lecanto gardens pg mermaid and you go when it was a monkey so to a fish tale and you were like okay. Part of what you reacted to with how could i be so foolish, not just iowa school. I dont think the second part happens so much. Instead of arnhems promise that we are all experts, that was part of the appeal. Now no one can be expert on anything. In fact coming to be a doctor or scientist is to be a fool. That is the state would have to think about. That reminds me of an anecdote. I was on a plane a couple weeks ago at the pilot got on and so there is a dead to detail that would not allow him to fly in people that is a large part of whats happening here. Did you fly . No, i got off. [laughter] weve actually been in denial of the difference between object to the subject committee. I think we now have the tool with our internet and phones that we can now create our own reality. I think the impulse has been there, but i also think our media has done a disservice because for the longest day of the has pretended object to but he was their goal. We do not live in times were object to journalism exists to tell the truth now is a partisan dig. Way down to is an existential crisis with anything other than what it is we are lying to the date of object to the pier for the longest time, trump was treated like an actual politician when he should have been treated as a disease. [laughter] [applause] i will actually say going back to the book, when i start going to these trump rallies, i start watching on tv and they put a camera. Like an hour and a half, two hours, however long you want to go. No one was talking about these rallies. All he heard racial slurs, misogynistic slurs aldus was building up underneath the surface but nobody wanted to talk about it because the news wanted to pretend to be objective. At the end of the day, not limited a time where such activity is everything at any time to pretend its not we are doing a disservice to reality. We are here with kevin yelled and jared sexton. We have 15 minutes and our panel. If you have questions, and begin to think about those. We have microphones. You can use your loud voice. One last question to wrap. I want to remind you which i failed to see at the the beginning of both authors will be signing two tenths down on congress. They will be doing not immediately afterward. I hope youll buy the book and have them sign. Ill throw this out to temperature and then turn it over to the audience. Often will we see a National Reactions and trade elections as a reaction to the election that came before it even with that even with that in coming to some degree which is what will presumably having 2020. Do you have a sense that the talk, dialogue, conversational changes to result to what we thought in 2016 or are we on course for more of the same . No. I think 2018 and 2020 are just going to be barbara rolls. I think it will be really repulsive. My hope is by the time we are done with 2020 the electorate will be tired of this nonsense. That is my hope. [applause] viva judoka people ask me or ask myself, is there some good hopeful . Theres a line in my book that is a quote but American People what a tragedy with a happy ending. I was tracing the hoax is a tragedy, but i was really looking for this happy in aid and speaking about, is the hoax getting more frequent and i came to the key asset is getting worse. What is funny as it seems truer now than it seems when i was writing it three years ago. May be some enough can be truer in a few years. I also think that there is a breaking point or a Tipping Point that we start to think again as critical receivers whether it is news or even just autobiographical stories. I would love it if we fall back in love with art and fiction is fiction as a place you can explore ideas that they are pretending to be real. I think it hurts people come it hurts our motion of truth, but also her notion of art about art can do. I think this will spontaneously get better because of the narrative. The antiamerican will heal itself. The fake news subjective reality authoritarianism creepy dude is it going to get fixed if we take education seriously in this country. [laughter] ended the notion that it will automatically correct itself is exactly what donald trump hope that the American People believe because we have to be good and we have to take take this seriously or will be here forever. Well said a couple people like her questions. Try to speak clearly. Hopefully that. Hopefully the mics are working to keep the question as direct as possible. Yes sir, please. I was wondering if you think its time for journalism to change because i saved journalism is falling short now. When you are the press secretary of the executive branch come out and later lie upon lie upon lie to cover and run interference for her boss to liar lie upon lie upon my daily, no one seems because you never hear anybody say thats a lie. Taking him on. I think theres a gap in the fact check cycle, so thats part of what happens with the fake story in people run and they try to decipher it and analyze it and rejected, but it takes x hours. That is the gap people start working on is a new story and it becomes hard and that realization is the way that fake is sort of becomes a polite name for propaganda and in my book i liked it better when it was just called propaganda. I also think kerry would have a better i think theres two ways that is combat dissent is time to take it seriously. Number one, we need to stop tiptoeing around the fact we are in a crisis. I want to know who people are getting their money from. I think on the news every time someone comes on we should know who their donors are. [applause] and because that is the context we are not getting. Im telling you people in who they are inclined to believe it like my family, if they say youre getting money from they can smell it. They can make that leap. Those are the things we need to be doing. Thanks a lot. And you for your question. This is a question for kevin picky talked about the role of the penny papers and helping disseminate back in the day. What was the Mainstream Media of its time doing and what was their take on these . And perhaps how does that compare to the Mainstream Media is coming the sorts of things today . One is i think the penny press quickly became mainstream and quickly became quite popular. The circulations rose dramatically from zero to 40,000 copies and lots of readers. I also think the Mainstream Media did a look at what it does today which is responded to the story. They would often recount is it a hoax . They were as interested in reproducing it and prepare to get because they wanted readers rather than saying heres why it is bunk. Thats whats interesting is this way which the hoax becomes contagious. As much as people reprinted there also trying to gain readers but also kind of say i dont know, and not debunk it as quickly as we might wish. Damn, i was hoping it was better in the good old days. [laughing] yes, maam, please. Has anyone suggested that the repeated use of the word fake news, fake news, fake news were done deliberately in the event that the russian connection was discovered . Because then that would be discounted. I of the mind, people ask me is donald trump stupid or brilliant . I think that a lot of this was done instinctually. Like what is it was it was right after the election he had his First Press Conference which is where he took over the control of the news. I think of the power of that term more than donald trump and what hes done this entire time with his followers, he just needs to give them a counter story. Thats it and they will take it and run with it. All they have to do to every scandal and problem is to give them another story and it will go with it. Take news is, his coopting that phrase was one of his most like brilliant instinctual moat and i think it is inoculated his followers. I think the news is worse, which is that in a way, this idea of how he emerged out of barbarism quite specifically which we know now was a hoax, maybe we all knew always, but that was admittedly a hoax. But it still has this traction. I think thats the harder thing that is happening now is someone asked me is the internet makes these things worse . I dont know. These things spread quite well before but i think its harder to get rid of them. The internet becomes a kind of semipermanent place where you can find what you want to find. That i think is the harder part. We cant discount that connection of race and the hoax is what propelled the National Stage for trump and others all along. Thats a good point not to jump in but that notion earlier you said americans openly ultiy want tragedy with a happy ending. I think a lot of us, i think this cuts across party lines or at least i would hope so, a lot of us would think to perpetrate that sort of hoax to say that president obama was not born in the united states, that it would ultimately a price to be paid for having done that once it is proven it is, in fact, false. One of the things that was really troubling about this cycle, very few prices to be paid for Something Like that. , and that feels new us me them what made you what weve had previously. They just didnt pass it got caught in a a lie that was it,u admitted it was a lie. Now donald trump completely overloaded the system. He will not admit its a life. I dont know what to do now. And its that shamelessness i think for the longest time political spin existed until your caught and then you sound sorry and you took your punishment. Yes, maam, please. I was wondering when you are on the trail, campaign trail we able to inform an opinion about why these people are such hardcore followers and unshakable despite the fact it seems his policies dont help their lives get better . Yeah. Its not about donald trump. Its not about who he is. Its not about policies and principles which there are neither. Hes an avatar, right . Its like being a sports fan. Think i am a trump person says something about you personally. So that if you said im a trump person it means an entire worldview and it means opposition to liberals and progressivism and political correctness. I dont think it matters what he does on a policy level. It doesnt matter what he says because now they are so tied into it, its like a sports franchise. If you like, i dont know, the Baltimore Ravens, and but if you like the Baltimore Ravens and ray rice gets arrested for doing awful things, that doesnt change how you feel about the Baltimore Ravens. He is the mascot. He is at a avatar and as long e is that i dont think they will abandon him, unfortunately. I think our last question unfortunately, so yes, maam. I was wondering how as a consumer of news can best ensure that we dont fall victim to some of this news that is not correct . Secondarily, how do you or can you argue with somebody who is claiming fake news . Is there a way to refute that after you found your own, found the fax . I think the antidote to fake news is more time spent with the news. One of the recent we had a proliferation is because we now live in et cetera times would want everything concentrated and given to us. Now every time i i read an arte and want to consider it i spend like two to three extra like minutes looking round vacation or other places have this. I think thats part of it. Talking with somebody else like us that its forming a personal connection. If they can see you as a human and see your humanity and recognize it then they will talk to you. You youll find it when the concessions. As soon as you start with the news and start with the disagreement it doesnt work but you to show the near a person and go from there. Start with social media of some kind now . You get your news from twitter or whoever. So i think going beyond that, going beyond the initial story i think is really helpful. Thinking critically of course. To what you said earlier we all need civics lesson. I love those classes when i was a kid and why are they not there anymore . Its like jim went, art went, no civics. We lose this kind of outlet for understanding how even the government works. My book is mainly about hoaxes and the fake of that and how we can kind of get past that. Thank you very much. Id like to thank you all for being here. [applause] and id like to thank kevin young and jared yates sexton. I hope you enjoy the rest of the vessel, and please member to go by the author book signing ten. They will be there immediately after. Thank you again. 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