Transcripts For CSPAN2 Samhita Mukhopadhyay And Kate Harding Nasty Women 20171022

Of this powerful moving and anthology nasty women feminism and revolution in trumps america, and we are incredibly honored to have anna holmes along with a panel of contradict tores to lead us in conversation about theme it is explores namely how we got here and how we move forward. It is very fitting to be holding this or particular discussion here at the knock New York Public Library a place steeped in history of feminist thought and action it is where betty won the feminist must speak sitting up stairs in a room where papers of maim and virginia wolf are housed along with archive of the National American Women Suffrage Association and women action coalition, iconic feminist literary magazine 13th moon and much, much more. Archives contain a fragment of the vindication the rights of women written in the hand. And we also are, of course, a place for dialogue. For us with the new york possible Library Extension of our mission to patron the people of the cities of new york with access not only great books, Research Materials and space to think and write but also a forum for discussion about the Critical Issues facing our communities, our city, our country and our world. We view our Public Programs in everything we do as steps on a lifelong educational journey so if youre a person who is interested and feminism or activism or any of the subjects were going to be touches on more tonight and any of our program the library is your partner were here to help you learn more and gain deeper insight into issues that matter to you. I encourage you to visit your local library get a library card if you dont have one. Check out a book or three or five or download our simply e. App where youll find hundreds of thousands of books to download and read for free. Or come back to this library or any of our Research Libraries to take a look at some of our items in our collection and draw inspiration from work and struggles of our four mothers that are documented here, of course, please come back for future events theres a list of upcoming ones in your handout after the program the author lbs signing books to please be sure to purchase a copy and all pl benefit the New York Public Library and now my absolute pressure to introduce anna holmes and editor and kate harding, thank you. [cheering and applause] [applause] hi. Before we start i want to take a picture with i have my phone of the audience of women that you have it later because i feel like its a good its a good thing memento to have to sew who turned out for you so hold on. A way to feel free concern one [laughter] all right. Thank you. Yeah. Youll thank me later hi. Im very flattered to be here. I didnt contribute to the book i was supposed to and then i have a job that was kind of crazy and i couldnt. I couldnt do and i didnt want to give them something that wasnt really fantastic. So im here to moderate the discussion and im very excited about the book, and im just going to start first of all ill tell you what were going to do im going to talk to kate for 20 minutes. And then were going to bring out other people. Panelists well writers in the book, and were going to discuss more things how to do with last years election, that were all feel and weal have a q and a to last 20 minutes at the end a and you should have gotten cards that you can fill out put questions on those cards theyll be collected before the q and a brought up here and then ill read from them, and well get some anxiouses as well. And for those of you who are tweeting, there are two hashtags one of which is for the New York Public Library nypl events. And then one of which is specific to the book nasty women lives. So without further adieu congratulations on the publication of the book. I realized when looking at the book relooking at the book the other day that i didnt know the origin story of it beyond the fact that there was an election last year that was [laughter] incredibly painful for a lot of people but can you take us through that origin . Oir. Yes. So night of election was working in a newsroom and i had written a 2,000 word essay about the historic moment of Hillary Clinton becoming the first woman president. [laughter] and i filed it tone went to the Javits Center like were good, and so, obviously, we know thats not how that night went. [laughter] and so i had to i realized you know 11 30 i had to go back to the newsroom and you know we need to kind of rewrite everything that we had written. And i, you know, in my emotion like it was very hard to writ essay in the first place like i just processing you know the last hundred year was American History, and thinking about how many feminist writers in this country probably have the same essay that never got published that night. So i made a video about that not publishing the essay where im cry and kate saw that. [laughter] yes, so i post that had on my facebook and we were talking about it because i had dont same thing where i agreed to file something within three hours of the election coming in for the guardian i did the same thing i prewrote but the paragraph with numbers how much she would win by and ended up getting slapped in the face by reality and sobbing and then staying up until 59 in the morning writing a guardian piece, and so i was like yeah think about feminist writers we know we could totally do anthology of the essays about hillary that we didnt get to publish. And when we started talking more it sort of grew into like no lets talk about what feminism going to look like under trump. And so here we are. Basically have you looked at those essays that you wrote that night. Recently . I havent i was looking at it on one year anniversary. [laughter] but maybe i qoangt. Ill email you that day. I actually worked mine into my essay for this. Because i dont like to waste things. [laughter] and a lot of what my essay was about talking about i was living in new york at the time an hour from seneca falls too crazy to drive to rochester to go to suzanne b. Anthony and i wait for Election Results to come in and my husband drove me up there. And we stood in front of the chapel in these, you know, women came up to me and like just never met them before hugging me, and were all going it is really happening oh, my god they had planned this trip months before. And then drove home sad p sat down in front of the tv. You know all ready to watch results come in and yeah. So i left the whole bit about going to sin ka false in my essay but context changed substantially. So how did you go about im curious about the title maybe first of all you can reminding people what the title comes from. Something that donald trump said and i think in october. A year ago. But maybe you can give us that context and explain why youve chose that. In one of the debates hillary was saying something and she made offhanded comment of you know your tax reform if we ever see them and donald went such a nasty woman. [laughter] and we immediately i was like well, there are going to be tshirts that have by tomorrow, and, in fact, there were by midnight. [laughter] and you had ordered one. I had by midnight so i missed special edition one that came out later. [laughter] but yeah when we were looking for a title we wrnght sure what with we were going to call it and we were messing with a lot of titles that sounded more academic, and i dont know who said nasty women but we believe, obviously well when we were in the green room we remember talking about some things that have been written about the book so far and one piece you showed me in the Washington Post today in which the author her critique was that the writers in the book are too nice. Was there something that once you chose that title did you feel obliged to then follow it with you didnt because [inaudible conversations] and what did the term nasty women mean to you . Because when he said it could have meant a number of things i interpret it as she was nasty and attitude. But he also has a very well documented issue documented issue with like women as i dont know living, breathing organisms. [laughter] and thinks theyre imbrues. You know, so yeah. Anyway. Sorry. Yeah, no i think the name we felt like kind of captured the historical moment and was a nice way to kind of categorize this broadser kind of sense of resistance that subpoena whatting across feminism, and yeah i think, you know, we didnt want hot takes being a rib the election overnight and so we really reached out to a wide kind of diversity writers of style and creative nonfiction writers, and more personal essay and reported pieces and and thik that might, you know, that does lead to a certain sense of like it is a little bit or more well thought out and its not just going to be this quick nastiness, but i still think the sentiments is there. I think the book is angry personally. Yeah, with theres some explicit anger a lot of simmering anger. But its funny because we were, you know, youre going to see two panelists and interviewed two of us and meredith for serious xm, and one of the things that really struck her was in her essay she talks about we have to stop being polite if you want to talk about revolution that has resolution to march, and she literally says like sometimes you have to throw a brick and so i appreciated a lot of critique in this review but it was like some of us were polite some of us are talking about throwing bricks that really goes to what we were trying to do here with get as many different perspectives as possible so that as a whole the message is feminism under trump snot going to be just one thing. But its going to be a whole bunch of us who have this share foods purpose. It is interesting to me because when i both right after the election and in the months since when e talk to women that i know, maybe this is why they say this sort of stuff in front of me or to me. They do express more anger like verbally about whats happened what is happening then i think they do in their writing almost like say the emails are very different from in person conversations styles in person conversations are extreme enough that there are comments made about dispensing with men alling together. Like [laughter] you know. And you know, but its a man was sobbing by the way. Is he . Im glad that you looked. Was there a threwline or is there a threwline in the book you think that something that angers anchors all of the pieces together besides prompt to write them but something you notice when does they started coming in did you start to see things, themes words . Ideas . Repeating themselves and if so wharm what were they . Thats a greats question beyond bandmen. I think people really can take a lot of approaches but two things that i think came through as a white woman i experienced this and those who are writers in it first time that we felt so vees are hate ied by our country and womn of color must have been nice to gotten as old as you are and never red light felt that before, and so you kind of so like weve got an essay who wrote this amazing piece that is basically like i am part of this legacy of survival from andrew scrak son, and gown my people survived jackson were going survive trump and so youve got that perspective on it and then youve also got a few of us who are like but wait but . So voices are different and we wanted it to be intersectional but gender to be at the center of it. One of the things that got to me was also something i was going through with frustration with the left. I think we wanted to cure it a variety of perspectives within the left. And i think interestingly some opinions really e involved actually as we were working with the authors on the essays of like opinions . Authors opinions . Yes. Or they felt differently after Inauguration Day or after the womens march so ali is a has a book and one of the founders of black lives matter with a essay about going to wells march wanting to be critical of it but actually getting there and realizing that the best thing to do many that moment was not to be critical to embrace this opportunity that all of these new kind of people were you know, accessing more radical politics. And you know, or calier who had deep criticism i think meredith of the women march and i think we wanted to cure rate all of those even if they dont like so the book as a whole doesnt have like one particular political like this is how we will march together as the left and more kind of agitating all of these different questions that i think helps us kind of understand where each of us are coming from. Why do you think there were so many criticisms of the wells march . Im just, i mean, it was a big thing. It meant a lot to a lot of people. But that will i realize it was a reaction to trumps election. But i was surprised surprised to see so much focus on it. On the criticism of it in particular . Yeah. Yeah. So much criticism in the book of it . Yeah. I think we really wanted to highlight those voices. You know, i i think that whether, you know, however you feel about it, like, for a president ial election to basically or refer inauguration to inspire largest mass protest weaves ever seen in history in the United States is still profound and worth documenting. But i also felt like it was important and you know kate can speak to this to have voices that didnt feel as exciteed about it in that same way. Erchls yeah, i mean, we remember both very prohillary. I was very at the wells march in d. C. , and it was a profoundly moving experience for me with. But we knew that not everyone felt that way and we wanted to make sure he included those voices as well and we werent just kind of trying to put our own brand of feminism or finding people who repghted different identities but all bairvegly wanted Hillary Clinton to win and that kind of thing. But we wanted to truly get a snap shots of women on the left. If we got more essay where is women march is an organization is and evolving brings up new issues right. They have like so they have that big controversy because they wished a happy birthday and people were like from a feminist organization like what had does that have to do with feminism, and i think the conversations that were happening arranged israel and palestine that like for whatever reason took up every op ed that was the weirdest thing like you guys never cover feminism all of a sudden you care that linda is saying you have to stand in solidarity so weird, but you know, like we can kind of like debate whether we think thats included or not included but i do think since the womens march as an organization has had trouble figuring out what the identity is and what it will do moving forward and theyve continued to do actions actually. But yods think like yeah thing this moment i would probably cure a set of essays on what is like whats next. Right. Whats next coming from women march organizers or next in general . In general for like are they continuing to build on momentum that we saw on the day after the election. You know part of what was amazing and porpght about womens march was that it was so many women coming together so you have this set of organizers who become the face of the movement but then it was so clear that the people who came requester so far beyond, you know, whatever vision the organize oars necessarily had, and so it becomes a problem that we had on the much smaller scale that you have all of these people who at some level identify feminists but have completely different backgrounds and Different Levels of engagement with feminist principles with left principles. And so it is really you know, its hard to say if it is just one thing or if womens march is going to go as just this one action or as ongoing movement. One more question i have three questions i gots five minute warning and which one to ask to two of you only. Well okay subtitle is feminism from america so i want you guys to tell me what the the rev youre referring to exactly is. And if it has happened where if youre predicting one and what form it might take or is taking. [laughter] i feel like thats a much hard per part of the title to live up to than nasty women. [laughter] i know i wasnt calling you out. Sure you werent. Were calling for a revolution actually. Exactly. Aspirational. You know, it goes become to what i was saying that its sort of aspirational. But i mean yeah like i i would prefer that it not be bloody. But [laughter] but it is. It is yes exactly. It is you know we were talking about this yesterday iftion say you have messaging saying my people survived by not all of the her people survived and not already watching whats happening in puerto rico people, you know, were not all going to make it. And so that means you know, for the first time in my lifetime im 42 talking about revolution and more of real way than ever, and it it terrifies me stills and i dont really know what to make of that. So ive got the feminism part some of the resistance revolution is an open question. [laughter] okay well bring out about [laughter] the rest of the essayists and give the bio assuming that most know who kate is but im going read your bio and bring out meredith and kara and zoina. [applause] hi. Hey you know it didnt happen if it isnt documented on social yeedz. So im going to read peels bayous to far left is kara, shes the executive editor of day magazine essayist critic work appeared in new york magazine. Glam more l. Village sleep and salon and anthologies she lives here in new york. Next to kara we have meredith i have to find your bio sorry. Where is it . Numerous Opinion Pieces like guardian, atlantic, the news, the nation, american prospect mike, and many others. And it says here that you divide between new york and philippines. This is true. Although nots anymore because i just got a fulltime job. Well congratulations. A vacation. To any immediate left is zorlina director of progressive programming for serious xm so satellite radio formerly director of progressive media for Hillary Clintons president ial campaign. And has hosted live political and select interviews for everyone and everything from Huffington Post to cnn as well right okay, and shes also prolific writer as well as being activist and organizer and written per daily News New York daily news, Washington Post, jet, reclaire feminist and cnn. Com and with a law degree by the way from from rutgers law school, and a b. A. In International Relations from top. To my direct right is kate harding who told me tonight that i was one who got her on instagram or something. [laughter] that is a little side. It didnt take. Of alarming rape culture what to do for it and minnesota book award in general fiction shes given lectures on rape culture and body image at colleges arranged the country and in the spring of this year, she was the distinguished visiting center excuse me visiting writer at cornell college. And her bio says that shes femme this feminist and that stayed in the version why not . Youre nasty. [laughter] so a writer editor and speaker shes currently this senior editorial director of culture and identities at mike former executive what former that, pane form earl executive editor of the award waning feminist. Com and also author of outdated qhiet why dating is ruining your love life only saying because we talked at dating and i havent dated since. [applause] that is actually truce. [inaudible conversations] i realized tomato will ruin your love life. Ten easy steps or o less. And two glasses of define. Okay so i have like questions that are like directed at various writers but then also jump in. As well like dont yeah. Okay. Not an interview. No, no, i would hope it is like a discussion. So what i first wanted to ask was to what kate asked me the other day i did a podcast with them, and they have difficult questions luckily they gave me like warnings like to think about them but first one was what makes you a nasty woman and my answer was if we have to define whats nasty is so ill start with you. God what can did i say that was early in the morning. [laughter] or no late at night. [laughter] thats how the days have been. Yeah, i feel i said that ping a nasty woman seems less appropriate on the stage but but my parents are the in audience now. [laughter] like youre a nasty woman youre kind of youre embody confidence and you dont give a shit what people think about you, and you, you know, you kind of wear that, you know, around as like a badge of honor i dont give a shit and thats how i am. Is that how [applause] something you think that you are on a daily basis or something you aspire to be . I think a lot of days im like that. I definitely have to have to amp myself up to get there. But you know i have days that are like that and days that im aspiring. Kate. Yeah. I see it more as just being everything thats, you know, as women were socialized to be good to be demure differential and to not make fun of donald trump on stage that sort of thing. And which how it came about circling back. But so just kind of being the opposite of that where, i mean, it comes down to you dont give a fuck but rejecting the training. [laughter] all right zorina. Daughter of two pastors so i was taught how to sit and be poised so i think i use that to my advantage in some situations but in other situations i know how to get a message across and to be opinionated i was told that being opinionated was a bad thing. Growing up and so now i express my opinion in public as a profession. So i think that [laughter] that, you know, thats sort of what being nasty is it is just being unapologetic and confident in what you believe and expressing outloud to convince other people agree with you. [applause] meredith. Well same trend so i went through this period of like of its interesting this trajectory right buzz you dont grow up with a socialization but then it sort of like if you have to be if yowpght to be a member of the club, then you know i overcomp said for a little while so my pendulum swung and no i i found any groove and now definitely opinionated and i use my male socialization in order to talk about you know all of the these issues that women face and that the ways in which women including me you know dont even necessarily know the ways in which theyre sort of like their condition by their own gender in order to not expect more and not expect to be equal because it is really inherently absurd and i feel it every day that women are viewed as inherently inferior to men especially if somebody who has been both and you know, like i didnt my brain didnt because i transitioned. [laughter] cara actually got better. [applause] well, being the last person i feel like everybody touched on the different ways i feel like a nasty woman and to think of it in terms of how defined it, you know i think were all versions of his worst nightmare. I understand stand to be, you know, more of a nasty come in sense that im kind of person who likes to make connections with people and find a middle ground. But im very opinionated. I live the life that i want to be living. You know, im in samesex marriage always been out, you know, we have a suddenly adopting together hes black and like i would, you know, fight to the death for him like i believe that, you know, my belief system is definitely out there. You know, secular, like culturally jewish but atheist like whatever. It doesnt matter like what my belief is system is but fact is like everybody who knows me mows what my opinions are and i evolve but i also just like theres just like i think by the definition of nasty woman like i also for a living, i edit other poems feminist opinions that you know, and i love that. And i proud of that. And so i think in that sense yeah im feeling very assertive and so yeah. Like i said like everybody here, by their definition and by mine, i think im pretty nasty. [laughter] ive always said that. I was thinking like i answered something similar to the question imposed to me when i was talking to you as to what people on stage are now saying and i realize after i got off the phone with you that it felt a little i felt like the ability to say that i am all of those things opinionated, et cetera, et cetera is actually i hate the word privileged sometimes but it is a privilege that i have a lot of women dont have the luxury of being able to speak out in certain ways. I dont know that it is just a it isnt just disturb a personality characteristic but circumstances that youre in that ally you to to be nasty i dont to use the word with nasty anymore. Sorry. But you know what i mean to be that person. One thing that you said earlier kate was that after the election you felt you can correct me because im going to mug it up you felt that you were just been realizing how messed up the country world was with regards to im assuming gender politics but other things as well and that you felt that a lot of women of color were like yeah where have you been all of this time is that a Fair Assessment . Fair assessment of what i said i would adjust in terms what i actually felt at the time. Because yeah i was committed to o aipght racist principle to social justice principles before this happened so i understood things were messed up and that also as a feminist who had been, you know, living in public on the internght for a long time, yadz dealt with the outright coming at me in former of trolls for a decade. And i knew how deeply racist and homophobic they were and two i think he is for me on election night. One was just oh, man i didnt i didnt think we had more than 51 on our side but i thought we had 51 . And two was just that like that gut punch of feel like i cant go out there and like you know, the next morning and living in central new york, we went to friendlies for breakfast i went my god everybody around me probably voted for trump and that sense of isolation, and that is a privilege that i can grown up with a white person was walking into most rooms feeling like im welcome here. There are people here who look like me and think like me. And so that was just completely exploded. Okay. So phil ask were you surprised you worked for hillary were you surprised at his win because i guess that i was say im not sure kates a qhiet person has not that you said you did. But on feeling shocked although this is what our country really is. Im not white and i felt similar to way that she did, so as of color of staffer no we were shocked. No i think we were not they wouldnt have put it you should big Glass Ceiling given us talking poingts so say were making history under this Glass Ceiling that is a metaphor i was a surrogate the day of the election. So we arrived really early at the Javits Center and i want to tell a quick that seems to pressing and when i was walking to the Javits Center really early in the morning right before 7 00. I saw my colleague and she had her hillary shirts on were so excited were like finally last day buzz you count down when youre on a campaign. And so people go how are you we go 27 days. 27 days thats all you say you say number of days it is because youre going to die. And so you feel like that all of the time. And so were walking into the Javits Center and we walk to the young side so question of to go all the way back around and we walk pasted this crew of construction workers, and this man yelled out from across the street it was a little far so he was very loud. And he said, are you guys with hillary . Were like yeah were with hillary yeah hes like go fuck yourself and when it started to turn around 10 00 at night question fought back to the morning and we were like yeah he voted for trump and those are the people that voted for trump so we were shocked right when russian hack was happening we had plenty of meetings like this is happening but were still going to win. Dont choir it will be fine. So we were shocked. I guess what had i want to say i didnt want to ask whether youre shocked that she lost but were you shocked by the number of people who voted for donald trump were you shocked by the percentage of the electorate or population that there was so many of those type was people because thats what i est that what i was shocked by. I would say yes, and i would say that part of early results coming in i was angry that it was close. Im mad hes win any states i was upset that anybody would go out to vote for him after actress Hollywood Tape part of my activist is fighting against rape culture what people decide they listen to it he grabbed pussy without consent so i was horrified that anyone after that qowld support him regardless of their politics on any other issue so yes i was just beside myself that it was close. And so for the majority of the night and until it was clear that we were not going to win, i was upset it was even a question that we wrnght going to and and clear that we didnt win, it was mostly just stun silence. I didnt cry until the next morning on the way to the confession speech and at the speech but i was in shock and made that people heard that tape and voted for him anyway. One ensayist in the book in her piece i was depressed by this, she said somewhere in her bones she knew hillary wasnt going to win and that she intimated that american women hillary supporters were so excited about her run that we ignored our instincts do you think thats Fair Assessment . Kara, meredith . Well its funny because i grew up in a dictatorship in the philippines so my entire, you know, my entire mental conditioning arranged elections is just like anything can happen. I dont take anything for granted it wasnt that hillary would win and it was really interesting because that night i was with several nonconforming friends and we had a much more i think in the action you know in the sense that in the sense for Us Obama Administration made inroads in terms of rights but transgrants people around who have been incarcerated just all of these issues for transpeople especially transpeel of color that havent really been addressed within the current state of our Representative Democracy whether republican or democrat. So on one hand people were just like oh, no. You know there are all of these material thing he is that are going to happen and you know, the live trance people will be even worse then at the same time people were just like well you know, maybe other people would puns understand how we felt for consistently even through a Democratic Administration like maybe people would be as angry as us and that maybe theres a chance that when that tie becomes strong that maybe people would actually account for trance people in that equation which is part of why i was in i was very much in that state when i wrote my essay for the book. Youre talking a lot about or essay but about womens march we can i want to address that. As well but i first want to ask kara. About your surprise or not surprise at the outcam because in your piece you seem pessimistic i completely am feeling it. Like im there with you. I mean i, you know, when i saw the returns, of course, i was like i was surprised not surprised but just devastated because, you know, trying to envision what this world is going to be like what does this mean. I did think i did think she was going to get a win but fact that like you said like that it was close. But they have like a couple of things like quickly to say likes one is that one of my writers the year before of black female writer who write doing a race column for me she year before she said hes going to get nomination and he might very well win and at first i thought cynical but she said do not underestimate the racism of this country and you know, it took me a minute, and then i, you know, because i just it was just a something i just i had to just process. But you know my mother said this to me repeatedly as a child like when things go south, theres, you know, shit gets real. About race sm about antisemitism phobia, like i say in the essay, have just but not really that she basically tells me about nazi and antisemitism when i was in utero. You know it was like engrained in my head i watched roots when it came out i was like six years old. So i knew about this. But you know, at the time not quite abstract and i witnessed racism before antisemitism and you know, i mean, not like i witnessed it because of the reason i didnt have antisemitism was because i was living in chicago in a particularly nonjewish area but i school they qengt to in chicago was started busing kids from Public Housing to my school, and this was a very working class area. And, i mean, i heard it. I saw it. Like the kids just selfsegregated they were repeating things they heard at home and suddenly theres this white flight so anyway to get back on point like so that was the first indication that i started to feel like you know this is going to happen even though it is like speaking nonsense and you know like those if you recall the debates where hes like you know calling door you know marco and like not even like addressing the questions. And as a new yorker and we saw how he would get bored of, you know, he thought about running for mayor and drop out and department take him seriously as a candidate. So that was my first indication but then the other thing i was goings p going to say is my parents are you know jewish liberals theyre not on social yeedz. Theyre in their late 60s and mid70s. And when whole plannedded parenthood video with doctored film, my mom believed it. But she didnt care because shes a major supporter of planned parenthood i thought if shes believing doctored videos like whatever she sees on the news and they dont watch fox they watch msnbc i thought shit were in trouble. Like if she tbleefs then she would say things about like i dont love hillary but ill vote for it because im not going to vote for trump i always vote the democratic ticket but you know bernie urine corn and rainbows im not crazy about clintons but what else am i going to do so i thought like man, you know, like were in a little bit of a so i shes believing whatever she saw because she didnt want to like tired she didnt want dwrown dig too deep and she voted for John Anderson in 1980s im not making that mistake again. So anyway thats how i thats to answer a very long answer to very short question. [laughter] i liked it thank you for the the i dont know. Yeah. So in your piece in the book you say the conversation is between white women who voted for donald trump and black women who supported and worked for Hillary Clinton you basically say needs to happen. I wanted to ask you why those two particular groups if you could elaborate on that how you propose conversations will happen because im pessimistic and i dont see how you get this. I do think that if it happens between black and white women theres a reason why 94 of black women voted for Hillary Clinton even though as a staffer i didnt join Campaign Like ive loved hillary all of my life and i didnt have hillary shrine in any house i grew to love her through the worker and learning more about her career, even stuff that i didnt know sow grew to love and respect her and i still do today. But i think it was important that black women recognize what was at stake and thats why voted for Hillary Clinton they knew what was at stake and peoples lives were on the line they knew people were going to be deported and people were going to be killed they knew it was policies were going to be horrible to affect us first. And women who looked like a first so i think thats why i picked black and white women not just because i am ole black woman myself but also because theres something about sort of existing in you know, a black girl body living that experience and then knowing how bad it could be. And i think white women who voted for donald trump internalize a lot of misogyny and sexism and i think black women we also do that too if sh . But to a lesser and black feminism is it was earlier more evolved. And i think that those conversations are not an easy conversation but it does require white women to listen to black women because weve lived the worst of the worst. And that goes back to the founding of the country. Right if i was talking to someone earlier today at lunch about you know the legacy of black women and how i fit into a timeline of feminist thought or even black women who were activists. And i think about how i feel in my bone and soul and feel women like rosa parks sat on the bus because she was tired but also in alabama because she was investigating the gang rapes of black well in the south for the naacp and thats why she was there in the first place so that piece of her legacy is something we dont even know, and i think thats we we just sort of have to look to black womens example because, you know, we were Sexual Assaulted to breed more slaves so coming from that and you know get together point where we have a Michelle Obama and beyonce and wonderful black women literally making culture and changing and transforming this country for the better. You know, we have to look to black woman as a model and example and just and listen to what theyre say. I think thats why i called it trust black women because we be knowing what is going on and i think [applause] you know not just to say it sort of as a joke but really just i think its important for you know a lot of women valley said to me, you know, yipght realize things were so bad yeah things are bad. Yeah, it has been like this, and listen to us when were talking about our experiences and i say that as a very is privileged black woman but pals know that i could be sandra and killed and no one could get in trouble for that i understand thats true and you know i feel like part of why i wanted to write an essay about i could have written you know many different essays about being a black woman in the campaign being a black feminist on the campaign against donald trump. But more black women on this campaign than any campaign in American History and Hillary Clinton did that. Barack obama didnt do that. Hillary clinton did that and there was a reason because she trust them. To inform her about what is going on in our community. And i think they were in every aspect of the campaign web design, policy, tech, communication digital we were in every part, and i think people didnt know that so i wanted to, you know, put a mark in the ground and say this is what was really going in on the campaign. And we you know, try to break through, but its very difficult to do that on a campaign of this size. And so tried break through what do you mean . More black women than in Campaign History they go really yengt know that. Right, even though we tried to make that clear and try and people black women would say to me well yont see myself in the campaign. Im like i do. Theyre all around me we have black meetings every one day 1 00 and strategize how we talk to black women and what were going to do for our communities. So that was something that i think was important and wrote that in the book. When you say trust women who are you addressing that to . Are you addressing it to the white female trumple voters or are you addressing it to certain segments of the let and how im going to pivot to you to talk about recollection of the identity politics . It is actually not addressed to the qhiet women vote for trump but progressive white men who didnt listen to us on the campaign when we said that not any person on the campaign but like we should do this. Are you sure, i dont know we would be like trust us. I dont know maybe, and we be like no were doing this and they be like maybe no, so i think so its about you keact just hire black people and put them in the office. And not listen to anything that they say so its trust us. Because were trying to give you good information and if were blog to put ourselves on the line and if like, you know, get attacked by black twitter for working for Hillary Clinton then believing what im doing shough you should trust me. This your piece, which opens the book which is an introduction of sorts you talk a bit a lot about maybe about identity politics and how, you know trump did and that was clear and a need for what people dismissively describe asitis politics. So i want you to elaborate on that please. Because especially i mean we saw it happening during the election there were certainly on social media but fractions of seemed to be split between hillary supporters and bernie supportsers and it continues now in russian. Some of the people were russians. [laughter] so yeah my interest and ping a big motivation for why i wanted to put this collection together is what i think is such an important value on the left and i think in progressive politics and policy is centralizing the idea of identity and one of the like what motivated that essay now New York Times oped about, you know, why et end of whatever liberalism because the end of identity liberalism which interestingly since then i have yet to find progressive to agree with that but they do, and title of the essay is something bernie said. He said im a vote vote for me and point is thats not enoughs. And i think what this you know collection is trying to get at what i was trying get at in my essay is, of course, thats not muff but it is also important and we have to continually remember to centralize especially as proifgs the most disenfranchised of us and not vanity but now we have i think as the point dont have a bunch of black people ojt campaign but not ask their opinion. And identity politic seis diversity or centralizing someone because of who they are. But really its about incourting it into policy so what does prison remple look like if you talk about and look at statistics on how certain communities are worst impacted than others right. And you know, how do you toss out, i mean hillary experience with sexism on Campaign Issue is of identity if she had been a man her experience would have been different. Can i like measure out exactly how it would have been different no because that is how ma s lny works it is like quarter everywhere. I dont know why but just not likable. [laughter] exactly so you know that was moving from rather than this fear or this kind of lie that question tell ourselves that as american with we have a shared experience which we do have a shared experience in terms i guess we all go to starbucks right. But like speak for yourself. Lch but we all experience citizenship dirchtsly if we have access to citizenship and that to me is to think of a left that wants to put that to the side is not a left i want to even be a part of. I want to inform everyone in the audience that were collecting cards with your questions on them so we have about eight more minutes before we start posing question so if you have a question write it down hand it to someone at the side of the aisle. So simita you were talking about misogyny and role of sexism played in the election. One thing ive been a little bit surprised by maybe im just not seeing it i would think i would see it is there hasnt been a robust accounting of the way that sex i. Played a role in not just clinton treated in campaign but in her loss. I guess theres a part of me that is wishing for suzanne sized book to cool out that week. But that is really like interrogation of 2014 to 15 to 16 and then after it hasnt happened. Are you hearing people talk about like is are your friends professional colleagues people that, you know, who are interested in studying and talking about feminism and media criticism are they is someone on this . May direct it at you. Okay. I dont know if anybody is writing this suzanne book, i want somebody to be doing that. [laughter] so perve here think about that. Can i just talk about the troe of the smart girl . Because this is something that ive been observing as somebody who did not go through my teenage years as, you know, female bodied or identifying as a woman. Im completely obsessed with teen movies because it is like oh, you know, like what if my life had been like this or et cetera, with et cetera but one of the things that i notice is how in movies men are, you know, when men are smart theyre just like effortlessly smart like theyre like theyre genius beautiful minds, but when it is women we have like lisa simpson, we have, you know, Reese Witherspoon in election. We have whats her name i forget the you knows theres this entire trove a smart capable come is inherently just kind of like annoying and like detail oriented and obsessive and wonky and weird, and in this way that is so terrible. And i think that trope played out so much. One of the first debates criticized for seeming overprepared like for a president ial debate. [laughter] against donald trump. Like were really overprepared is the criticism were going to get . Who said that . [inaudible conversations] thank you. [laughter] i feel like somebody should be on this piano. I love it. I wanted a simpson, sorry hey, you know, youre not going to get any objections to me. Work with on the campaign shes plea is a simpson used to say that but in a good way i like that. I want my president to be prepared. And who was cool. Its not fair. And i loved that about her and couple of things first of all, obviously sexism play a major role but every time you said that troll army descended and chuck said no, no, and it had to be like the thing of youre never aloud to talk about Hillary Clinton without saying shes flawed but that you have to you cant just say i like her because then youre like suspect. Or people youre shallower and for the magazine i wrote a piece back in like right after she announced saying im voting with my vagina this time because i supported i had supported her in the 2008 primaries to. Thrilled to vote for obama when he got nomination but i saw a lot of sex i. Then to and funny thing was way it came back we started seeing if no bernie is real thing and attacked by men on the left. And i think it was matt said oh but you know now theyre saying that it was also there when obama ran so clearly making it up. No or clearly sexism has been a thing since at least 2008. [laughter] and i think maybe it was glenn greenwald. Maybe retreated. Confused them a little. [laughter] our men look alike. I qoangt say anything. [laughter] they both have their issues. But its no, just you were want aloud to say sexism was a factor but there are good reasons to hate her im lightning okay well enjoy jr. Good reasons but can we talk about sexism . She ran a terrible campaign cant she take responsibility for that. Wait what . She was up against like russia okay russia. Okay. Like im sorry but, i mean, i still am mads about this because you know even after pet election the day after. You know they did the speech where at the funeral in campaign, and really did feel like a funeral everyone and were up against russia, and wikileaks, and you know all of the things and me and my partner in crime host of the raids owe show we go girl she was a girl. Like they didnt even add that so were like no, i mean all of these things were happening but happening because shes a girl. And ting like we skipped over that. Right we always skipped over fact that she was being treat differently by every single dimension of this. Why does putin not like Hillary Clinton what, what problem does Vladimir Putin have with a capable, strong, assertive woman . A lot. And this is history of their relationship. Thing that people forget is that she just needed to be you know like on that other side of being slightly underprepared slightly emotional, over you know four people to then for that to complete these. And you know she is the symbol of how women in america live. Right, how we navigate spaces where as women have so much more latitude to be assumed camable you know regardless of what they do. And donald trump you know is definitely a keen example that have by the way im wearing orange shoes because, you know, because i can, you know, stomp. I hate the color orange now. [laughter] theyre on my feet. Imheed. I want to thank you for saying russia because then ig thats another manifestation even now with as much as we know with level of influence by russian and paid trolls you know just its massive we ask what did hillary do wrong and its like she won. Yes. She won. Yes. And realistic measure saying yes absolutely russians in michigan, and thats where, you know, shes supposedly lost. We have to think about the timing because i think we didnt acknowledge you know we understood at the time when it was happening oh wait the first batch of emails that came out was hours after the access Hollywood Tape came out right it was all strategic were going to the dnc in the first morchght dn ceo emails with Debbie Wasserman schultz and dnc folks so Hillary Clinton campaign was not hacked that Hillary Clinton campaign was not hacked. Johns gmail personal gmail attacked and released on internght 2,000 emails every day last 30 days of the election until the election. So i think internally we were like were being attacked. Right, you know this is feels it felt look you know, an act of war. And hillary used that term on to talk about it because it was an escalation of some sort of conflict that we just were sort of in the middle of at the time and i think as kate said were only now realizing that oh, they were targettings ads towards bernie supporters in wisconsin, well gee i wonder why it was the difference of 20,000 votes. Itch a lot of other questions myself but ill ask you afterwards. Jared kushner email first question is this and are we in the fourth e wave of feminism and Core Principles does it actively include men . Flesh kate so thanks here let me look are we in the fourths wave . Yes. Which is not to say that i consider myself a fourths Wave Feminist i identify with the third wave. But im also getting old. And so there the young people coming up have a perspective where i was working with College Students last year, and seeing the things that they take for granted that were, you know, really struggles for me to learn social justice wise and struggle in the college in the 90s so im excited about fourth wave i would say i dont i cant say who is leading it. In terms of naming anyone, i feel like increasingly its important to me to recognize that as we were saying about anthology people nism is multifaceted, ideally it will be you know threaded through all of of society so its not just something that whats in clumps of new york intellectuals or you know clumps at colleges on campus and that kind of thing. There were a lot of young women and im going to throw that one because she was just editing a publication for millennials to slit to name you 20 young women whror amazing but okay she can name like four maybe. Im like i dont know. Glory of her 100 . But one of the Core Principles this the section is core principle of, you know acknowledging woman is only one identity among many for all of us does it actively include men . Sure. I it is as much as i think men are welcome to help in feminist movement and not different than the younger wave but u does it center men . No. I would say also on the in terms of the Core Principles even before the election when i would talk to younger women who didnt like hill had rei but were feminist and didnt relate to her i was like theyre ready for laverne cox to be president. They like they couldnt relate to Glass Ceiling floor. I dont care they dont need to relate to my congressperson but i think they need to be good. Call me when you get old and fat and well talk. [laughter] well see is about [laughter] real thing that i keep bringing up for you know women who are in early 20s mow, they they only became ploilly sanctioned with obama basically. And so they think youre supposed tore like this incredible rush of amazing feels about your president and better than the other guy check and so thats something i think is frustrating looking at young people notmenting to vote strategically demanding for purity from their candidates. Next question short Police Officer at election i talked to a friend who voted for trump. When i asked her it be the pussy about graying quote and nasty women on and on she said i dont know why thats stuff just doesnt bother me i had no reply to that. What would you have said . Kara [laughter] this is a question that has actually come up. Theres a person what well i was surprised to find out that there were people in in meredith my wife and my life that did vote, i mean, that were related to that did vote for trump, and, i mean, to me it is a deal breaker i never want to speak to them again. But we have to because theyre you know, they show up at holidays. And therm like i didnt like hillary im like not an answer. Like like i just i find if unspeak public act. So i tried with others i knew that they did but one person who told me i just she is actually hates him and he wants him to be impeached. So how to i think that that the response i would have is you know hes not joking. Right . Like it doesnt end there. And its not just about rape culture its so rarely about like not that its theres a joust misogyny but a whole realm of hatred like he has no rpght for you. And that comes out in legislation and the kinds of things that hes going to do in office. The next question direct ared at dorlina im directing it at you not the audience member. How do you explain 53 of women voters voted for trump . Now is it 53 of female voters or 50 of white female voters . Where were the nasty women . This is a fun question because this comes up a lot. But its important to know that white women vote for republicans. Always the majority of white women vote for republicans 56 voted for mitt romney so actually she did a little bit better than president obama. Did in 2012 so i think it is complicated smflt focus Group Information were getting at the time it was clear that married white women in particular either didnt like hillary because their husbands didnt like hillary or o they didnt like her because she wasnt warm enough. Right they wanted her to evoke some various stereotypical yoin nurturing warmer in her approach so she wasnt doing that and men arranged them usually their husband hated hillary. Shes shrill reminds me of my exwife. She felt entitled so zero women so entitled. So i felt like in some ways it was internalized misogyny one of the most frustrate moments to be into the campaign coming from the block so obvious to me but yet it was hard to relay message to hose who didnt come from that space and talking about capitol hill and dnc theyre like whats that . You know they have no idea. They dont understand it is in the same by and nuance way and understanding that well can also be misogynists, and that women can hate had other women and per wech wait misogyny and so i think that you know its important and remember ka remindinged you know everybody on this and her terrific piece that shes written about the election and Hillary Clinton that white women vote for republican and so she didnt i think that will be thought and hillary say this is any her book you know, you know why all of these blacks voted for bum and voted for obama why werent women vote for a women and race is a much bigger motivation than gender is thats by design. Right, and so i think that in part its important to understand hoirksly that white women vote for republican but also that gender its nor complicated in some ways i think now sitting here today ting that first woman might be of color and they identify that. Is it going to be nicky haley . [laughter] or going to become [laughter] kamala harris. Delivering i know who i want it to be. But i hope haley and setting hes up right now u. N. Ambassador trying to get forb policy experience and looks Police Vehicle adult among this circus that we watch every day on television. But its interesting because i think that she has to get white women to vote for her and there are places in our society and how theyre a culture which is different than women of and different of women of color lightning when we speak out and assertive we have to be because were always im always only black person in the room and im also the only black come in the room a lot so i have to sort of mess things up and you know, speak out and make people uncomfortable all of the time, and i think white women are culture in a different way so i think thats the result that we saw. This question meredith ill direct at you and everyone afterwards how to quack aipght trump line without keeping him focus because he lives for that attention. Great question. Thats i like i just really dont care what does or how trump feels. Unless his actions have a affect on lives of people. I feel theres intuls to say im not going to do something because it will affect, you know, it will be somehow, you know, it will make trump feel better. But our job as citizens is not to care about the personal feelings of our president who is lead our country that trump, you know, trump himself created that entire dynamic in which you know an entire nation is beholden to his, you know, capricious feelings right so from my vannage point i think that i will be as antitrump as i want if i feel like that is that is the action and the motivation that would get people that would convince people to rally against him and i dont give a fuck how he feels it be. When he was her in new york at trump tower for the first time if you can recall the week of charlottesville and down the elevator of trump tower he said crazy stuff about there were good people marching with nazis very fine people over there marching, that was because he was very tired. Because people have been protesting owsdz of trump tower always night and he could hear them and first time he was here in new york the election so he wants to be liked so he likes attention but he doesnt like bad press and always freaking out on twitter because hes watching teff and if it turns to russia you get fake news tweet he freaks out so yes it is attention. But he wants positive press it is very much you know hes narcissist so he want it is that positive. That is all donald trump. Yes. Theyre right and do stuff successfully i dont think she was is trolling him but one of the questions that came through was a audience member asking whether he had used the natsy woman line font mayor of san juan puerto rico. I mean i could google it right now. But he did and she went on tv with a nasty shirt on. [laughter] oh, my hero. [applause] okay this is yeah this is a tufts one. Kate maybe you can try this. How dealing with the distrust of the media and move forward to get message and facts out there besides ban facebook. Howl do you do that . [laughter] and twitter. Theres my personal distrust after the election one first thing i did was cancel knock times subscription so i dont have that lifelong for the times but way they covered emails made me so angry i was like this is on you and i still see it with with, you know, i had to unfollow, i couldnt deal. See the way that people for paper record are trying to still really you know, play down russia. Slay up hillary mistakes, you know suddenly everyone involved in the administration has used private email servers an were getting two seconds on that but it was what hillarys candidate so i have a lot of anger and mistrust about but that the not only times but able to unsubscribe and you know its everywhere. Its in a lot of publications i still read. So that is very frustrating but then theres the other aspect which is how do we deal with people who are watching nothing but fox news and people saying this is fake news and then you have actual fake news thanks russia. Like its if its really hard and ive been saying for a long time before it became this spicer that i feel like what the next generations need to learn more than anything in school is just Critical Thinking and how e vault sources even when were dealing with a big internght full of information to be able to look and say okay this is a reputable source and these are people it can trug and this has been fact checked or even just a basic level of this comports with observed reality. [laughter] i think thats something we have to it teach more and more and like Critical Thinking has to start in first grade at in point. Do one last question and this is for everybody. There are a couple of comoants of it and ill ask them all because they all relate to one another. How to get involved first name doesnt say but i think we know what he or she means look to join an organization how can we help with a feminist movement . You can supply like specific answers or more general ones about strategy tactics. Things to do not to do. Zomita. Okay so i would say i think that feminism right now in terms of looking at one feminist movement is not necessarily the right way to look at it. I think that there are different applications of feminism i think theres a lot of amazing activism happening right now in organizing work. I think in different areas that all require funding, i mean, i think that while aclu got a ton of money after the muslim ban, i think that there are other groups that are doing grass roots organize oing around reproductive rights ping Sexual Assault groups i also think you know immigration rights, activism and lbqt activism and a lot of work that is happening around suicide prevention. So many other issues that i think are so deeply underresourced and you know a lot of exciting anyone vattive work happening in those spaces too that i think are one way to get involved and so i dont think theres like a i mean you can buy this book and give it to somebody also. That is popular. Nasty. [laughter] so thats any answer. Theres a lot of ways to answer this and im going to just go with the middle aged white woman answer i started joking not joking like after election through it it is done im in emily list fell scientist right now and thats it. That prochoice Democratic Women is what im focusing on. And so i moved to florida an once im done with tour i want to get involved with governor, and move to florida strategically . Nonches. No. That is is an idea, though, basically to avoid winter but yeah. We were [laughter] no. Happy to live in illinois and new york otherwise the vote corvee will give more interesting progressive answers than that but also support democratic prochoice being counted. Please. And to add to that one of the reasons that so many women are hesitant to run outside of being trolled rit ridiculed and watching what happens to hillary is theres a huge gap for what women candidates can fund raise. So also move to red states. Red states move to wyoming we can flip that one easily as i understand it. [laughter] hi its hard so you see something happening around you that is problematic and comfortable safe to call it out or to have a conversation that might be unkivel in office or at school and with your family member. You kind of have to be that person to have that conversation. And you know, i often use any dad as a example a daughter of two pastors and mid tay was a republican until 2004. And i used his him as example so a rational thinker i used him to figure out how to make convincing arguments that would work so i made him a supporter of Marriage Equality just because i kept trying i kept trying different angles i was like what if it is this and that, and you know, hes like you have a point. You know and so i think that practice train me so sort of talk and debate and do it all in public but also it it means people can change their minds and im not going to do that but what was said about war in iraq that changed my mind. And im going to change my position on that issue. Im going to support Marriage Equality and love bum and support Hillary Clinton, i see what shes talking about when shes saying that people are being sexist towards Hillary Clinton. Its horrible you know i get the messages from him like i cant believe how theyre treat her right so i use his example because i think that we all have people in our live who is have different views or they say things like i never thought it be that way. I know you didnt thats why were having the conversation. [laughter] so its about having those tiflt conversations when we feel safe and enable to have them because if we dont it will keep going. Dont change mieppedz. But youre saying in essence to approach people with a certain generosity of spirit that they cant have their minds changed. Which is really hard to do. If i didnt believe that i wouldnt be sitting here soy recently saw one of my aunts when marched in third march in selma shes 65 years old so because black women dont age really fast she looks gray hair but looks very young so for me seeing her reminded me of fact when she was 17, we couldnt vote. And that she had to hide from the clan in back of a pickup truck for fear that they were cooling to kill them. When they went to march in selma and shes standing in front of me and lifetime she couldnt vote and hiding from clan and i worked for Hillary Clinton and i went to selma with president obama. So for me i think its about about change can happen and it sucks so much and slow, and if i didnt feel like peoples minds could be changed idea could i try to change minds . You know, if mind couldnt change we went from channel slavery to im sitting on stage talking and expressing my opinion in front of all of you people right . I wouldnt i wasnt a person at some point. Those are my an seis stores so, obviously, we can make change in peoples mieppedz and it is slow and sucks and painful but i have to believe that. I have to have some optimism always. [applause] i feel like for me i lived in the United States since i was 15. And one of my biggest consistent challenges have been to become Close Friends with people who are very different from me. And i feel like and that is a challenge. They live every day even as somebody who is, you know, an minority who occupies a bunch of categories i feel like were so kind of like you know we live such difficult lives when minorities you know in one direction. That we sop often find it very difficult to empathize with each other and to feel and to deal with the struggles that each other is dealing with unless we actually care about you know people that specific people that we love in, you know, in specific ways. And so for me a really effective ways much of being able to sort of organize around issues your honor be it black lives matter, be it you know around black trans women issue and disability issues has been really to form close individual relationships with people especially people who challenge you especially people who question you. Especially people who push back because its really the only way that your point of view can consistently be challenged and such a way that you you can be changed as much as youre changing another person. And so thats been a very important aspect for me of being able to sort of key into specific political issues, specific ways that people think. See, this is the thing about being the last person. Its good. Im sorry. Because i know everyone is like touched on a lot of things that i was thinking. But i mean dialogue and listening is key to, to become like to do integrating feminism in your life and into social justice in general and for me those two things are you need to be together. As, you know, i feel very lucky that i get to edit this feminist onis line magazine because i have learned so much from all of the these different writers. And the perspectives that they bring, and as an editor im listening, you know i also am a writer but i get to listen. And i have learned so much of, you know, about disability rights about black lives matter, about trans rights so i feel like im part of a dialogue too but im also bringing that to a readers and it gets bigger and bigger every day and so were all talking about it. Not everybody, you know, and, i mean, like i think we have like one of the best dialogues about abortion rights, you know, like, you know, of mainstream feminist magazine although i been doing amazing stuff. Were very small and independent but i just, you know, we get to say whatever we want buzz were independently owned so if we want to like have a really bold headline we can just get it out there. So i feel very lucky that we get to get to take on as much as we do with our one or two posts a day. To start small and that is how it begins. It starts with School Boards and city council this is how the two parties did it and came to power. Because it works apparently. But this is how it has got to be done. But i find how activism starts you have to get out on the streets. But i do find a the dialogue if you are not listening you will not get anywhere. Andy will just stagnate light intersection of feminism as it comes to a crisis. Everybody talks to the same people. [applause] there are books for sale outside in the auditorium but there will be assigning so you can have a booking and bring it down by the editors and the authors also thinks for coming. [applause] with your very hardworking and this book. [applause] [inaudible conversations]. Good evening. If you have a sense the academic world is losing its mind or in the right place. [laughter] we will discuss what is going on in India Academy these days with a joint even with Heterodox Academy and foundation for individual rights in education we are very excited to have you here. Also watching on the of live stream or the podcast. I am the director of Heterodox Academy and a professor in New York University at the school of business Heterodox Academy and fire have a strong with the ship. The admissions are complementary from fire to stream individual rights of americas colleges and universities with a leading defender of free speech on campus. The mission of Heterodox Academy to improve the quality of research and in