Georgia. Thanks to everybody for coming. I am so excited to be hosting susan bordo tonight. [applause] and we are also lucky to have the first year in conversation. [applause] with Katha Pollitt also as a . Note we are recording for booktv on cspan so after the formal conversation we will take questions they can hear you as well. Twenty years ago with many other wonderful bookstores to be here before Christopher Columbus were looking forward to being here for many more. So click up a copy or two or three to talkedabout important topics for crow and youre in for of wonderful treat for being a great partner. Susan bordo a cultural historian and media critic and is nominated as a pulitzer prize. And is a poet and has won many prizes and awards include the National Book critics award. Just give us a couple of minutes to set up after words to sign copies of the buck. Brooke. That would be appreciated. [applause] i thought i would start to say a couple of words what it is and what it isnt it is inspired by something that i heard. First of all, is not the insider look there recently has ben day book published i dont know the clintons are the people that worked in their campaign as a purveyor of Popular Culture . And with the virtue of the fact that i have read job that allows me to . To Pay Attention to what was going on for crow and to be dependent upon headline news. To hear the 5 00 news for crow so whenever the media has decided to present as the Important News of the day i dont think as the media is the opposition party. We rely on bad enormously. It is a hard job especially that those it of causing you very fast. To rely more and more on that narrative. With that investigation that becomes that guiding thread into over and over with Hillary Clinton. So with that examination of the policy. Not jim a different from the book it seems that it is a pretty big stretch with their faults and virtues. To be translated or reproduced to be mythologized overtime. And then to vote against hillary but then forced the caricature. But the big differences talking about three decades with the last election cycle. It doesnt put the blame on any one factor. But then that a number of things that contributed to what happened. But a thing komis announcement 11 days before the election is very important so over the course of the election. So you hear email and the male and female from the press. The hollywood tapes had just come out and people had kong forward with stories and the numbers are plummeting. And then the announcement really turned the election around for crow mung negative. I mention that because it has a lot to do with what we would read we were listening to shattered. I had not read though whole book i will not give a commentary but what we heard to except the narrative that hillary lied about her email. In that fatal mistake is that she did not apologize soon enough. I thought would be dispelled at this point. A number of those that believe that she lied. And those that believe they should be in jail because of it. So what i want to read from so of first then this chapter i approved she didnt live the did dave carelessly. So to put the blame on the mainstream media. So here is a shocker. She did not treat classified emails and the careless manner. That scandal like previous investigations is all whole lot of nothing and with that poisonous portion and then with the insinuation by putin. And then as the attention turns to the behavior that shakes them to their core we give them a flaming dessert courtesy of james komi. But then to describe how the emails scandal was constructed by the press. Clinton becomes a criminal, or clinton is vindicated but nobody knows it. After the state department produce their reports on the Rachel Maddow show. To classify their emails that system led some people to conclude nothing about Hillary Clinton at all but then part for is an abuse of power act one. You remember the first james colby announcement. But he delivered what people thought he cleared her of all criminal charges but he went on to accuse her to be careless with their emails actually a number of people came away from that presentation thinking that it was a verdict. But then to call comey engineering but then he actually admitted in that hearing not only did she not my bin she did not we dave carelessly at all. But that did not make the headlines. So with that illustration of what went on all the time. Asking them to answer questions of which he and they agree. With an extremely careless assessment but then things got rocky for comey. Eli succumbing us more explicitly only of those emails said any types of markings on them. To give them a classified status. As we remarked mistakenly as we see in the body of the email. So with that particular exchange that they were not properly marked according to the state department manual. So any reasonable person would have been possible. If not be out and of all said. And tim is a the contrary the inference that those three documents are not classified. Well then the manual in his hand i will read from the transcript. Asking about markings on a few documents the National Classified security information but dont think you could talk about those great a day properly documented . No. But if i ask unanimous consent to be entered into the record without objection is so ordered. According to the manual if you classify something there has to be a header on the document . Correct. Was there a heading on those documents we discussed today someplace . Comey, no. There were three emails there was no header. If secretary clinton really worthy expert what is classified and what is not. The absence means those three documents are not classified. Am i correct . That would be reasonable inference. Family from carelessness and negligence the lying about not sending or receiving any emails. To say that it is not appropriately marked which is what she has been saying for months. To badger her and badger her that she was hiding something. Comey should of had a fullblown press conference to apologize firkins assessment of handling classified materials but instead was silent while the media hammered away at her carelessness and one of the chapters is called untrustworthy hillary and how that image was built up. It as a recklessly disseminated narrative. But yet the time of the of this characterization comey offered no retraction that is less of that political dirty work. Because the importance had never turned into breaking news. The media does their heels an even further. But then i will skip a bunch but i do want to finish the end of the chapter. Having gone through and what impression that left with viewers but after a the comey exoneration that he had broken the law with another 36 piling on to show bad judgment those numbers are ghastly in fact, had broken no laws or behaved carelessly. So without overwhelmingly negative attention and all policy issues combined june 7 through november 8 with that Media Coverage one when she had pneumonia the other two was right after comey. But that story came to dominate the president ial election. But i think that was a fatal blow. To vastly over show cop policy proposals. And to have that totally false impression between sanders labeling clinton and g. O. P. Obsession with her emails both which were lavishly covered the Clinton Campaign was defined negatively. It was and that they had no message now it was delivered as the emails scandal. [applause] to get the full story. But to move on but to broaden that out a little bit. That is the indictment of the of media. With msnbc or the washington post. That they created a portion that is a likable. And how you show that impression went to be a piece of news. And i just remember a 1. Why do people this like you so much . But i would like to know what you think has a media critic and billionth philosopher why do you think the media took this approach . It requires an answer. The way the media is inspired by the g. O. P. Going back to the Clinton Presidency that the world is rightfully theirs taken over by a bunch of liberals. Where hillary later described at the time it turned out to be pretty damn true. But the g. O. P. Got into the habit to ferret out whatever they could that could not be turned into raise business suspicious behavior scandal at that point. And feeding negative like red meat to a the press. So there is a tradition and there was a wonderful piece in which suspect everything never let them explain so when you begin there with the couple of calls the hillary herself fell into that day may remember about her career choices but the media at that piece and then to say for my entire career. For 01 to have the choice cephalon or the other or both. Housewives across the country that she disdains our choice. Wagon you describe bay stay at home mother you express that in a way. And was talking about being gay governors wife. A governors wife but she did have that role but maybe she should have come now to say i want to be a lawyer. And she did so. I dont think arkansas was ready. But then she helped them get reelected and her hair. She took off her glasses and put on makeup. Let me just finish. Over time she has become very cautious with the press i think that has annoyed them to know when to. To no end. She doesnt speak as spontaneous because she got into trouble. She gets along and complicated explanation and consistently had them chopped up with inflammatory sound bites. She has become less available to them and they are as annoyed as hell at her. They say that. Even with the primaries she wont do press conference what is she hiding . I fink that was a big piece of it. I have the thought if she could have barbqs with the press then it would pay off. But i think that is much harder for a woman to do but do you think in some way hillary was a transitional figure . Which meant you have the job and wrote articles for the law review . But what we see now was a woman who was much less radical for the standard issue urban democrat woman. Issue was born 10 years later she would be a different person. But that is a hard balancing act. And the most controversial part of the book especially Millennial Women with their mad love for Bernie Sanders. Can you talk about that . If there is any response is that. Some of my best friends are millenials. We talk about the generation gap of the time. First of all, give credit with those supporters of Bernie Sanders one she got the nomination and. They did not support her. But it is a large contingent of bernie supporters say they may not have been the first choice the was more focused the of the of lesser of two evils. And and and and and now but i think that happened with this book because the guardian prepublication in the guardian only one chapter the way day headline the destruction of the sexes and and sanders. Which right away is seen as the argument that is not my argument. Have some issues with Bernie Sanders the way he presented his campaign but really with the millenials it is a generation gap. That is a great question. But it is grounded in policy. It is difficult to sort out what was rough wellrounded policy differences turning into a brand. The what happens to the problems of hillarys position but turning into a hallmark. So a lot of those responded. Who wants to be on the side of the establishment . Space to be on the side of the of progressive. Sanders her style. Better hair is rarely a mess if youve ever seen her in a pair of jeans. And something that is very put together and composed in to venture into that part they translate into conservative. To see her of coalition. But they were not meaningful. We want to get to some questions. Is spend a lot of the book comparing her to the part of the book that everybody should read. There really got me stuck on the tudors and everything about them but these ambitious women married to very powerful men became targets for all clients of accusations than just being a witch with a broomstick. So the story of hillary with those ancient stereotypes what do they tell us about the next woman who wants to run for president . Christiandom iran says she has no interest in running that is that problem being a woman or a feminist . A lot of the women that get power are conservatives they dont think they want to take away their privileges. Do you think mickey haley would come in . I thought about this a lot. This is a lot of fragmentary thought but it seems to me that we have a particular problem i think other countries are more comfortable with powerful women than we are there is a way in which to have this reverence that will not let go and one of the things that you learn from hillary there is a crazy tight rope walk that if you are too feminine bin it takes too long to rule but if you are seen as too powerful or assertive so of they can walk the tightrope is unusual you mention end Elizabeth Warren when she ran in massachusetts was accused of a lot of stuff that we no longer hear about her. I dont like her voice. Exactly. Pocahontas. President trump actually referred to her as pocahontas. So this is certainly the case then hillarys career when she was secretary of state and helping the survivors of 9 11 people loved her. She had 60 percent approval rating. But then the ambitious part just going beyond their rightful places when they get into trouble. And to satisfy everyone. Will we live long enough to see a woman president . I will be 100. Give it time. I think to understand actually think that is where will come from to be a much Younger Generation of women growing up the with men who were different this and dont have this difficult baggage that we bring with us whether actual baggage or associations i dont know if we will live that long. Blood pressure medication we will open up to some questions. You can call on people. There was the moment during the debate when i held my breath because i thought from that moment this man has a chance that is when she tried to get her policy position and was very calm and contained but with her mother behind her back some people began to chant that why couldnt she have turned around and say i will not go on until you stop . There has been a sense of frustration in the way she was literally treated that went beyond anything of our social construct with the candidates and debates and things like that kept happening over and over again. So much so that 1. And people 12 through 96 many of them say we had the choice and i was astonished they would come back to the conclusion how could that be comparable to be on the same page to gather . It is hard to think about what she did or did not do without getting too how incredible the behavior and actions were. You have to answer all the questions. [laughter] it is a really good question. Wanting to answer in terms of what he did i am not sure what she could have done. There is virtually nothing but what is it about him that allows him to get away with so much . There is a lot of different ways of approaching a question. I think of tin hillary fell into that type unfortunately because that erases the of a real person but there is the type in the culture for the lovable con man professor harold hill in the music man or guys and dolls, if it is the collective cultural consciousness it is a kind of male figure who could just lie and steal and grift and get away with it because we have affection for him and part of the feeling affection people have for him created the election. He was already a pop culture figure people felt they already knew him and they are charmed by the fact lot of things that appall some people they thought he was laughable and charming because he talks like a real person. I think that is part of what is going on. Fall into the niche and it is frightening to me that what can you do . That we will call him to task for. Short of a nuclear holocaust. Lets stop there. [laughter] thanks book. My god was listening to the shattered people you refuted them totally. I want to make a couple of comments but first of all, if this is on femininity more than capitalism that is what that is all about. Second, i want to say a the burden of the times i agree completely. International airline pilot. He lived a lot of her policies overseas and i found the derby supporters have no idea, for instance what they consider this idea for clean energy and countries yo you couldnt breate the air or find a runway. Also, the other thing i want to say is, and then i will wrap up with a question i think that the narrative is still out there but its being perpetrated by men like frank rich, and most certainly delmar and i will also add dean beckett of the New York Times who should have been removed from his position as the chief editor because he was largely behind the emphasis on her emails. Do you have the opportunity to do other speaking engagements. Are you going to be in the new york city area for a while . I live in kentucky now. I would like to suggest that you get in touch with susan on 92nd street. She is extremely left reviews but places like that i hope you have the opportunity to go there and find out. Anyway, tremendous book. Thank you. Thank you very much. You started to touch on the question that i had, but you talked about how there were many moments as secretary of state people stopped loving her and as a millennial clinton supporter, the number one thing i kept hearing from people was well, i wouldve voted for Elizabeth Warren but not Hillary Clinton. Theres a great article that came out about a year ago Elizabeth Warren is your girlfriend in canada. [laughter] its easy if looking to the future, i hope its someone a little bit older than me that gets to be the first president , i hope its not as long as you seem to think that it will be but is there a way over that hump to be the hypothetical powerful one to the woman that could actually get that power . [laughter] maybe they will want to answer this because i am very bad at foreseeing whats possible and whats not and its harder than ever before because we are so unhinged and off the rails. Wonderful questions like yours i dont know how to think about it. It would have to start happening for me to figure out a whether or not shes going to make it over or be able to walk the tightrope. I dont think Elizabeth Warren would be able to do it. If i could just jump in here before barack obama ran for president i dont think there were too many people that said america is ready for a black president especially one who was as young as he was and didnt have a huge parcel of experience behind him. One reason he won is because the disaster in the Economic Situation so i think some people voted for him who would not have because he was smart and they knew what he was about. So, we kind of forget that when it is happening at the moment, for example, people say that this was changed year. And hillary is presented as a third obama term but people wanted donald trump. But we have to remember she won by almost 3 million votes. So anyway, we dont know what the world is going to be like in three years and ten months or nine months and i hope that tim goes really fast. Rebecca said something really insightful and she writes about hillary a loss in the pages of her magazine and she wrote about her in her earlier campaign and said if america is ready for a female president ended sexism wasnt a big part of the downfall, how come she is the only woman that got that far and i think that is a good way to phrase it that she did get that far so putting on my optimist hat i have to believe when we sorted this out although not normalized donald trump, we must never do that, we will see that its more possible to imagine a woman that is president then before she ran. One of the things that struck me about the misogyny, not just the sexism, is it masks itself in the way people couldnt hear her and im not talking about the superficial i hate her voice because she reminds me of my exwife for that nonsense. Her style of governing was a consensus and she was folding for that. She cant make up her mind, she needs a committee. She wasnt going to stand up there like a firebrand and spit people away like bernie and the other person did. I think she was ashamed for god in ways that we have not ventured and thats going to be a problem for whoever comes next because we havent seen, she created one model but was rejected for it. Absolutely. I think it was ezra cohen wrote a book because piece of her style versus bernie or trump who just reveled in the admiration of these large massive gatherings and spoke in short, declarative and forceful where she is a more feminine style, i dont care what you call it, but she would get together with didh people, talk to them in small groups, listen to them, respond to them. We dont see that yet. We are appreciative when someone is serving. Just like we are glad when we have our own moms to do that work. But as we would expect from a president , it didnt translate well. Its a very good piece, by the way, the ezra klein piece. I forget what its called but it talks about the problem. There is another piece of this dimension its harder in america for a woman to become president and in other countries. Im not sure thats the reason why although i think its true. But in america the president iss the commanderinchief of an extremely military might country and that is masculine but the interesting thing is she would always be criticized for being a hawk and if she got along well with generals would seem kind of weird although now we have a president to reverse two my generals, like talking about my cleaning lady. [laughter] taken care again she fell between because she was too militaristic for the last that she was a woman for the more conservative end of the party, so i think she will be seen as a transitional figure and the faster we can transition, the better it will be for all of us. [laughter] one of the things im starting to be more hopeful about and its like youre talking about work in this country and others and i think somebody mentioned consumerism and capitalism which helped. I think our country has been so religious. Religious. Women cannot be the head of the household. 52 of white women voted for trump and a lot of them are evangelical women. Until the shock some of that out of our system and it seems like not religion is bad but its been a little too dominant in our culture and its influence on how we look at women and mothers and everything else. I think as we get away from that, and we are more and more. People are not as religious as they have been in the past i think we are going to see a little more acceptance of women in power just like europe is much more secular than we are and its not a big deal. They are so puritanical in our ways and i think until we get over that its going to be tough for anyone into rise above the lawn caretaker role. I think that is an important piece, but theres other pieces i dont even know how to begin to figure out. But i do know that when i was researching the book talking to british men, the way their households were structured as they were growing up its much more of a how should i put it, a mom. Im not saying the country had gone beyond the sexism, but the mom was allowed to be much more powerful. Theres that greater kind of comfort wherever they are. Its different than the new think tank to the 50s with the little apron and high heels and pearls. Thats a different version of mom that isnt shared by all cultures. People grow up with a different Comfort Level i think witches and to say that it doesnt matter. From your mouth to gods ears, what can i tell you. [laughter] if hes listening. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, susan. [applause] thank you, everybody for coming. Please give me about a minute, minute and a half to get set up. Thank you everyone and congratulations to susan. Thank you all. 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