Transcripts For CSPAN2 Ellen Ullman Life In Code 20171008

[background noises] hello. Welcome to housing works bookstore cafe. Im melissa ragsdale, and before we get started can i have a round of applause for anyone who was never ever been to this bookstore before [applause] thats great. That gives us the opportunity to tell us about the work we do here at housing. It works as a Healing Community of living with and affected by hiv and aids. Our mission is to end the dual crisis of hopelessness and eight through advocacy, provision of lifesaving services and entrepreneurial businesses to sustain our efforts. What that means is that everything you see here in the picture, all the books, music, movies have been donated to us and the proceeds go to housing, healthcare, advocacy, job training and other lifesaving services that is needed. That means every time you buy a book or appear here you are doing a good deed and i would encourage you to do as many of those goodies as possible. You will see there is a bar here to my left and a cafe on my right, as well as a nice beautiful display of ellens book that you can buy and have that go to housing works. We are so grateful to their publishers for donating their books you can buy here tonight and were grateful to ellen for donating their time and talent to us. You can get involved and how the works by donating your time, volunteering your time, donating books and hosting an event with us just like this one. We also host real beautiful what it means and private parties please come talk to us. You can keep in touch with us on social media at ten and sign up to get our newsletter which will come to every week and tell you about the readings, concerts, parties and other awesome events we have happening almost every single night at housing works. Thats all that you have to know about how the works for me from going to introduce these two wonderful authors. Well get started with the launch of life in code. Ellen ullman wrote First Program in 1978 and went on to have a 20 year career. For essays and books landmark works describing the social, emotional and personal effects of technology. The other two novels by blood and the bug. The runnerup for the pen having way award. The wire about her life as an engineer during the internets first rise became a cult classic. Her new book tells the continuing story about the effect of the world as experienced while living in the midst of more than two decades. She is based in San Francisco. Our second conversationalist is [inaudible] shes the host in managing editor of note to self, a tech show about being a human from wnyc studios. Every week on her podcast she answers digital quandaries. Experience and conversations with listeners and experts. She is one numerous awards for her work including four of the new York Press Club in 2014. In 2013 the alliance for women in media made her an outstanding host interest in brooklyn, new york and has written a few books. Lets have a round of applause for these two authors. [applause] this was my fantasy, ellen, that we would sit down in a caee and chat about your book and you guys can listen in if you want to because the note to self team, i have to think my producer for bringing this coming in and i have my version with all the postit notes and everything. She came in and said oh my god, you guys, we arent all women team i should add but oh my god, you guys we all had to read this book and we did and we talked about it and marveled over it and couldnt wait to have you on the show which we did last week which was we got amazing feedback. It was my pleasure talking to you. Great conversation. Now i get to ask you the things we didnt get to talk about and i want to start out with this idea that your book is a consolation of essays and ideas and how do you begin you are prolific so how did you go about old that one, that fiction really did come true and lets put that one in there. How did you decide to do this . My editor said only your best work so that eliminated a lot of things and made it easier to pick which ones. The idea was to have a stop motion history and i looked at things that i wrote earliest and wondered if it was still pertinent and i did that moving forward and looking at the different pieces and discarding this one and that one until i felt there was something that made sense over time. With a pause in the middle for discussion of Artificial Intelligence which takes up a quarter of the book. Those pieces are also written in sequence over time but they make their own story, i hope. The same thing is a section called three stories about what we owe the past and writing about technology in the future and i thought it was important to sit in say well, look, look at the things that happened in 1980 and this is how i learned to have my skepticism in 1972 and im getting feedback here. The problem there okay. That is how it came about. Then i moved it up to the present, coming to the end which is tuned to a farewell. I thought oh here we go again and the boone is not going to crash and its going to slowly deflate but it will now what i fear it would be when i started in 1994, moving into the deepest intimacies of our life and there we have it. Technology is not leaving that deep in her place in human beings. I want to read you a quote you say that you knew that tech would intrude into the intimacies of our lives but you cannot know that so many people would be delighted at that change state of existence. What did you mean by that . Thats in a piece called while i was away and again i will give credit to my editor because there was a hole in the time sequence when i wrote the novel by blood and he wondered if there was an essay in that and thats a good question to ask a writer and it turned out there was. Then i finished the book and these were things i had feared all this time what types of things mark that the internet would be intrusion and it would intrude in our intimate lives and their social life in changing politics and then i looked at it and said these are things i feared and people talk about fearing and being concerned about and then go about their lives as if those concerns and fears do not exist. It seems to me a madness of our time that on one hand we know we are being surveyed and bits of information about us down to what we like for dinner are being treated. Echo fax, anybody . And then on the other hand i like everybody and you cannot live without this anymore and its a strange tort mindedness. D look back at your essays and think there is where it happened or is it more like a frog in the proverbial pot that we are all just simmering and suddenly, oh my gosh. 1998. No, give me a your. 1996 was the first boom growing and despite it always been said that it place in Silicon Valley a lot of it happened in San Francisco. The kind of punk year, revolutionary, freewheeling cipher punk energy was in San Francisco and so i watched this grow up and by 1998 the web had really taken over Economic Life and there was a movement called or a trend called disk intermediation so there was you and the web and all those people who had helped you figure out what to do in between, brokers, librarians, journalists, experts of every variety were not to be trusted, out for themselves and come to us on the web. It was at that moment i felt that that was the first Mainstream Media is not to be trusted and this was a way to draw people directly to the web back to where you get your needs satisfied. The interfaces you had on the web were scandals even more than your Insurance Agent because you are trapped in this one website and you had no way of knowing the bias behind whatever they were showing you. At that point, i went okay, there is a whole layer of the middle class and expertise that has just been removed or disgraced or distrusted and this i thought is the beginning of something different. I think this quote i have is from that. I was walking toward Market Street one afternoon when i saw it, a background of brilliant skyblue with writing on it in eerie white letters and is it weird to have me reach you smart. No, they are not ready yet. It said and this is the now the world really does revolve around you. What does that mean for us now, to me i read your book and i was like oh my god, she called instagram a decade ago. You saw that this was coming and is personalization but you also not only saw the wonders of it in that i can get glutenfree indian food delivered to my door in 20 minutes which is great but also there was an underbelly for every wonderful thing that happened there was also another side to it. I didnt foresee anything. The things that i saw i describe what seemed to be coming all around me and it slowly dawned on me not obviously exactly but became more obvious as i more thought about it and wrote about it so, how can i say this i knew this wasng and i didnt foresee anything but when i read that back again in reading over the work i went, i am really sorry this happened. I look at it and i didnt foresee instagram or twitter, the thought machine of the universe but im really sorry that i didnt see it coming and there were things in the book that i wrote im hope im wrong about. Like what smart. Im worried about the start market bust and in the way that the first one in the general public was the last one in and this was a big gold rush and ive got to get my chance to go in and its going up up up to get in the game and those were in the general public for the for real shoeshine boys of the depression. Even shoeshine boys were buying stock. They got in late and they fueled that very last rest and they are the ones who suffered the most. They were putting in their 401ks not there extra billions. Well, i am afraid that we will have Something Like that again. What is mitigating my fear is that these companies dont want to go public anymore and they are staying private so even more insidious is the inside are billionaires going going on and i dont know what effect it will have on the larger public except to keep these very few companies who make no money whatsoever and were back to the old Revenue Growth matters but not profits and cooper lost 645 million in the last quarter and they were doing better. So, this is what i worry about that there are these people who have so much money they can afford to lose it by nancys these companies, feeling their tremendous Growth Without any natural break in terms of are they making money and will this be a benefit to the public. Usually a company that goes public has to stand on its own at some point. Its interesting that theyre playing a longer game with hoover as your example. We know that right now its about changing how you get a car ride but what they are doing is training the machine to eventually take us to a world where we dont need drivers and they essentially want to own the way you get around and is that a shift in how Silicon Valley always works are they looking ten20 years or are they always looking that far . This relates to something in Artificial Intelligence i like to talk to. For many years the movement of Artificial Intelligence was to create a humanoid robot in the fear was that we wont be able to tell whos robot and who is a human being and there will be smarter than we are and that is utterly failed. Time and again it came up against the big problem that human beings have this thing called consciousness and selfawareness or social creature and have emotions that bind up social life so robots turn to be pretty bad at that but now what is going on in Artificial Intelligence is the machine to machine interaction and that is where the Machine Learning is going. Thats where the principles been applied to self driving are. I call them Driverless Cars to emphasize what is being taken out. No longer matters whether this car drives like a human being because they dont want to drive like a human being but its this car to this car interaction and this to the Internet Interaction so the Uber Movement is not onla combination of a trend but she said its an ugly blossom of the trend in which you remove all the intermediaries and even the taxi drivers go first and the uber drivers go next and what were left with is machine to machine interaction and its intense and Artificial Intelligence says forget human beings. We are not interested. Were interested in machine to machine interaction. You reminded me that i took a list because uber is deleted off my phone and i hope its deleted off everyones shown. Do you want everyone to know that. Yeah, you should know its operable. In any case, i took a list and it was a lovely kenyan man who moved to the United States about 13 years ago and he is a four yearold and i got this guys whole story he told me what his rent was and how many square feet he was getting and what his wife is like and the whole thing and i thought you know what . In five, ten, 20 years you would not be choosing San Francisco as the place to get a job. In fact, where in the United States would you as an immigrant or someone and where is the toehold into the american dream, as it were. There are still people coming here for it desperately coming here for it. Taxi drivers are a classic case of an immigrant job, a place to start somewhere and earn money. I take taxis. I confess, i take taxis. I know who this person is and theyre probably not drunk or stoned and if they have a d you i and the next last six month they would be driving the car and the car wont lose a wheel and i know what im going to be paying ahead of time. So, i probably wont be objected and those are all the reasons why i like taxis. Didnt your mother ever tell you to not get into a car with a stranger mark. [laughter] digression, but is it a stranger . I see on the app that its like [inaudible conversations] but if you dont give great ratings you will be demoted as a passenger. I had a bad uber rating and thats why i i take a regular taxi from the airport and i take a lift to the airport and i will say price difference has been extraordinary. Lift is half the price and you have to see how this can affect the industry in the diving industry is one example and we can go down the line of food and clothes and hardware goods and go on down and there it is all the time. Sorry, i interrupted you with my driving. Tell me more. No, no, we have to go where we go. Can i ask an indiscreet question of you could mark do you have [inaudible] i do. I dont make these choices very well. I can buy but i cant sell very well. My friend who manages this for me says you are afraid to take your cars off the table. You really dont know when to go out and i always say i might miss something and its like leaving a party too soon. She says you are bad at this and you should stop doing this on your own so, we go up and down about which tech stock to buy. It turns out apple is the best performing stock in the last ten years whether you like apple or not so, what is the future . What is going to happen to people needing jobs . Bookstores dont pay all that well, now do they no, people in retail are losing their jobs. Small shops are closing, Big Box Stores are suffering. Even walmart because people go there and use it as a showroom and then they order from amazon online. Where does this stop mark i dont know. This is the future i dont want to foresee. I leave it to someone who is looking at things now and their lifetime 20 years from now and to tell me where they think it is going. You look pretty robust. You might be around for a while. Im getting out the rocking chair. In the near term future who do you think we should be watching most closely . Facebook, i wrote down the list of things that have happened to them in the last two weeks. Special counsel Robert Muller in congressional committees are investigating the russian sponsored ads and theres a whole fake news issue thats been going on, potential antitrust and privacy regulations in europe and add buyers to target users with interest like how to burn [inaudible] so not a great month for facebook. Although, you have been talking about those issues for a long time and our show certainly over the last couple of years has delved into it but it does seem like we are at a moment where the bloom is off the rose, so to speak. Is it just facebook . Is a growing pains or army at a bigger moment where we are looking at the society that has been brought by the big five and saying no, it is not okay, not good enough. Facebook is not going away. This is the most horrible thing to realize. Uber is not going away. The europeans are doing a good job of smacking it around which i cant say i am sorry about but apple is not going away. Google is not going away, not in the near future. Even if there is a tech crash of these companies have real value and the big five are staying. Facebook is the devil. [applause] that. What else can i say the whole fake news thing started with them when the right wing said okay you have these humans curators of turning news and they are leaning liberal so facebook went we cant have that so they fired the humans and they replaced them with algorithm so the algorithms looked at what was trending and they looked at all the things that people were chatting about back and forth and these are the arguments and people went into rumors like there was a childhood abduction ring in the back of a pizzeria in new jers jersey, you know, and that would be turning news. Removing the human intermediaries in this instance created fake news. We have to remember this is where it started. To push back, again, i was in San Francisco last week and i dont think they are like laughing at all. Most of them want to be paid well and they are good at what they do and they want to go to their job and go home and get their drycleaning and go to the gym while there at the job but thats another thing. I think Mark Zuckerberg generally seems really does think that he has our best interest at heart. Yes, San Francisco general is now called Mark Zuckerberg San Francisco general hospital. I dont think anyone involved in this says i will be a greedy ogre. I would say some venture capitalists are greedy ogres. That is what they do for a living. So, they are very upfront about it but thats all very well but how will it take me money and that is what they ask and that is what they do. I dont think the individuals there are at fault but something arises out of that conglomeration of people and software that is created an entity of itself that runs like a machine in its own way. Yes, it does. Thats a perfect way. And i dont like this book for another reason. And this is something i began to mourn as soon as it came on but the first way back when the first internet the great thing was that people made their own webpages and we had been locked into the user interfaces of apple and Microsoft Windows and it was such a great relief that all this creativity nothing looked the same as people had 20 fonts on the screen, fun with funds. [laughter] it was living with letter font. I will remember that. But it was easier and easier to make a webpage and it became simple. But now we have facebook and this is this very tight format in which you express yourself and not only that but they changed the format on you. Just when you get comfortable as to how you express yourself and talk to other people and say what youre interested in, now we are doing it a different way. This is true all across the web. Just when you get to be an expert user of your banking software, oh, try our beta and now youre an idiot all over again. But it works better. Oh yes, it is better, that nice feature you used to have now you have to pay quickbooks to get it. I want to switch two women sitting on the stage talking about tech is pretty unusual an thank you for saying this a few minutes into the conversation. While, we talked about something between women in tech. I wonder if an explosion will happen when is it possible but the scene another woman probably wrote quite an extraordinary piece in the New York Times over the weekend and i dont know if you saw it but it was extraordinary and about the sense of misogyny that has always been there because i read ellens book and it has roots but now it has become tied to a movement more a codified movement it sounds like with the name where women are not needed and also tied very much to extreme right politics in many ways. I wonder if and i dont know where to start with this but when ever there has been an effort to bring women in or minorities of any sort or let me give you a hand out and let me welcome you. Let me go out of my way a little bit to help people in have been excluded. There is a fierce backlash always. Yes, i mean, in tech it is amazing how quickly it turns pornographic. My book the bug came out and on . Dot, its a geek site, some lovely guy said oh you should see the review, this is like she wrote about my life and this guy was a bug that he couldnt fix and his life completely fell apart and there were a couple of other interchanges and by the sixth one it was i know ellen and i saw her naked body and i didnt like how it looks and so on and so on. They drove me off . Dot and this is the place i felt comfortable and where i belonged as a Software Engineer. This is what happens. I felt driven out the door and i felt like i should go back and be tough but i thought screw the mall. Who needs a . But i did need them. This is the conversation i wanted. I can cite instance after instance where a python comes in it which they made an effort to welcome women and girls and they had this wall where people could put up yellow postit notes to make comments and within 48 hours no one came and it was only a three Day Conference but within about a day it turns pornographic. It starts with why do we have to help them, cant these [bleep] make it on their own . What you are reading about is the follow on to the james do more memo and these guys are saying we are and its a witch hunt. Lets face it, this is turning on its head the victims who victimize themselves in what is a witches. Witches were tortured and murdered and these poor guys are being put upon by a few women who might make sense in their 200,000 a year salaries. The poor guys. So, i have this idea that women just cant make it in the to more memo, if i go through that and okay, ill give you an example. This is funny and will relate directly to your book. One of the things he says is that women cant be Good Software engineers because they want to balance and they cant sleep under their desk at night and get work so they can even bring their dogs to work. Wait a minute. That is bad software is engineering because banking year headed to the screen or to stay at your desk all my preoccupies with one set of problems and will not get you anywhere. You have to walk away. You have to introduce emptiness and poured them into your life. So not only to express misogyny but also bad for Software Engineering. Why that concentration of the junior men, i was sad google last week and taking of my idea is of their deal the digital habits there are wonderful thing san difficult thing is. There is a huge backlash from all of the engineers they just wanted to know how to avoid burnout. Really . They are just like us. The one that stayed behind to chat was super awkward. [laughter] but also kind of lovely i told them they were not alone. And they seemed completely benign. Why does this industry have this particular beef with women . More going into medicine, hopefully politics why . Speaking in broad generalities i often express it did the book as often as i can that i am selftaught her by working areas there were made the men. If i didnt have these helpful then i would not have a career such as it was. I came to love abbevillian to geeky this. So it was not all bleak but there are women coming in the to the profession following the same route as those women in medicine. Becoming primary care physicians than trying to get into surgery the path gets narrower and narrower but right now they are relegated to the front desk. The front end and a bad back and. The front end is the web page and coding that is over the internet into the servers. That is where the down and dirty of a rhythmic and billing happens. Even women who have experience go into google are offered jobs of fran and development. So then they are shuffled into the pink ghetto which is the front end so i think we are repeating a pattern and then it is a weaker career path. Because that is how it has always been . You just sit back to 1986 the head of the Math Department said i should not bother to try to do calculus because obviously i was not very good. You just cant say that in this day and age. To say they are not very good at this is that the root of this . In general. Eleven years old they are confident then puberty have been san all of the confusion of who would ever want me . So you are told that i have tried coding and i find it hard. It is hard. Any thing you really want to know is hard edges because it is hard does not mean you cannot be good at it. Are you intrigued . You get that tiny Little Program it doesnt matter if it is hard. That is the message that has to be put out over and over. Maybe you will not like it. If i ever hear that condemns them again that is not too soon. Also steam for the arts. That is better they and stem. Your description of coding was a real light bulb moment. There are few people that bring that literary eloquence anybody who has not had a ton of experience so if you are wondering about it give it a go but then you talk about your experience of a massive online course. E open course. That is to be the great equalizer anybody can go online. They have their own internal lies preconception of a bias. They have expectations. No matter where you go the ethernet is not the purifier it is a concentrator. If it starts here with programming videogames all the of students around the world then you cannot take this course. Theoretically it is an introduction to python which is a beginners language programming for everybody i want to have always out words so people in general so people say it is my hero but before it starts there is a link to the video that they call it there Digital Office hours. In the course of this she begins talking about that she says i just found out those three little lines are called the hamburger he said he said he did not know that . She said no. She is teaching web design for everybody. Dont you see those three lines with the man cutout that is called the of the hamburger . Meehan burger and this goes back and forth. This is stream to live around the world. Dont tell your students that is the latest thing because it is non did you lose your credibility. Actually had to soften that in the book because the lawyers dont like that. [laughter] actually originally it was verbal dominance she literally moved aside. It is hard stopping to watch this then she says i of the Computer Scientist i guess my job is to be a little goofy. She is just reaching for anything to regain her composure. There is an excerpt and harbors and day objected to how they were portrayed. But there is the transcript. There is the video. They said i took it out of context. Of course, i did this is the only context around. [laughter] it was shocking. This is what you will find. With those coated messages . And the bias is in their. And then you can show them to groups of people. You can have your computer set up and talk about it together so they are useful so they can filter out all that stuff. I think if people are excluded excluded heard you are curious just to see if you can find it fun. You dont have to do all of the assignments it might be fun. You dont know so with the proviso there are social biases. I could keep going who has a question . [inaudible] i will repeat the question. So the fight for Net Neutrality has any implications for minorities or women and to have a greater voice in technology. Is that fair . If anybody doesnt know what that neutrality is, the idea is providers charge of semen fees for connectivity and then the various web site says i want to run faster i will pay more to go on a faster channel. They knew dave maurer bet you do for regular home line. However what that does is the smaller websites are riding on a slower speed. Where facebook and google run on the fast ones. So the young startups that have to get started somewhere because they are less well funded like women and minorities it has gone away and that Current Administration the fcc just ruled against it. There is a lot of politics back and forth i am not sure the outcome right now. Is delayed again. But if we dont continue to have Net Neutrality. That doesnt seem very fair. [inaudible] the better and better tool for this is a very low level job so yes that automation goes deeper into the province of human intelligence. That is all i can say i have no solution. I want to work on a solution. Here is my theory. All these people say all these people have to teach them coating but like the digital blocks is coding the answer like jobs and education but the interdisciplinary approach and using the technology if not in this they and that . Coding is the dumbing down of programming but my point asking people to expose themselves that we are surrounded by the algorithms and there is a sense we cannot do anything about it. It is enough to know that people write to these things. I have a wonderful and happy story about this. I wish i could remember his name but proposing a bill that all of the algorithms would be examined for bias. Even the garbage pickup schedule but to me this is hiring people that are motivated to do this for a City Department this is why i hope there is a wider society. Went to a funding tech company recently. And they went there because there are better tacos on thursdays. [laughter] we need those people who were willing to work in the bronx. [inaudible] a horseman. [laughter] i feel google is complex there is parts better doing really cool things like jigsaws but then other parts that it has become so fracture that worries me wishes hope that they stay cool and you are friends with them. And said she is offered a job at a Cocktail Party and she says held no. I feel like emilys in between that chasm. But with that state of affairs basically teaching myself processing using two or more chips of a computer do you want a job . Do i . This was the late nineties and i became terrified. I was like a lizard on the wall. I was afraid i would fail. I look back on that as a moment that i regret for called the of the times i said i will learn this. I will figure it out but this was different. This was really hard hard and i lost faith in my ability to figure it out. Go. To when they started when those early officers got up there talk about monetizing eyeballs to say all these people coming to the site how we make money . The story goes on from there. Google has tried hard to have humans occasionally interact. If you search for du the first is due haters if you search for jewish people then occasionally they will intervene but i remember talking with larry and his mother i said i am kind of worried about this algorithm and he really thought about it and said i am concerned about that but i dont know any other way to do it. He meant algorithms. They can make choices. That i cannot go and evaluate the quality of that only by how many people think it is good. And then had to make money. That isnt in the book. [laughter] i have a lot more stories it is funny how amazon because we all have prime and have given them a pass. I dont. To the ignition and i did not have to make. [laughter] [inaudible] so are you scared light elon musk . Yes. That much confidence and that much money can do whatever he wants. He is terrified of a. I. But there is no way to build machines about it. It is an everything you do. Robotics and Artificial Intelligence woven into any electronic thing you have. But the problem for me is Machine Learning because what has happened the algorithm of the rights the algorithm that operates the algorithm in response to outside influences. We can get to the point where they dont know what it is doing any more now this is the part that goes into science fiction. I dont generally worry about babette i do think there is a concern. There are other scientists who do worry about this and what is the responsibility that create these Machine Learning algorithms . There are some Amazing Things happening in the field in terms of the diagnosis or to understand how a cancer cell grows to have vast amounts of information if there is one hospital looking at three cases a year that another take all of that information across the globe to have incredible discoveries instead of learning about this leads prior whether it has pesticides sprayed on it or not. So there is some wonderful scenarios if we get to that point how fast these things move of letting it is doing any more that are ethically questionable. Right now twitter is the space to declare war but that is the scenario. It wasnt considered smart but we have to remember that is where we started. They were conceived, not as beneficial objects such as war agents. A lot of technology began as war. Going back to catapults, right . I also think porn had a lot to do with the internet. How did we go from catapults to board short. Im trying to tell what drives technological change. Porn was the only thing making money in the first boom and they were making actual dollars and they were the ones who needed for all of those videos to devise a way to get bandwidth and a lot of what was devised for bandwidth was for them. There were certain things that drive changes in technology and porn was one of them in my opinion. Anyone else . You talked about this for where larry was concerned about [inaudible] could you speak up . You mentioned before how theyve expressed their concerns about the blood how would you describe [inaudible] specifically machine . Its about how you would describe the people making or writing the code the algorithms and their ethics. Well, thursday the fourth i will be at paul ford startup whats the name of the startup . Post light and that is the discussion topic. How to be a Software Engineer and lead an ethical life. This is a big question. I think scientist space this also when i first joined a group called Computer Scientist for social responsibility during the star wars and it was an idea that we will shoot down all these missiles coming over and they were concerned that working in computing would do this would make war more likely because we had a false sense of security about it. This is something i find district engineers are beginning to think about. As there are people with the humanities education beginning to enter the profession, places like google are beginning to recognize what do you know that there are people who learned a lot of other stuff in thousands of years and maybe were doing all the stuff about learning and maybe there are people who have in richer point of view. As the mix of people involved in engineering is a slowly changing these questions are coming to the floor, at least, i hope so. I can be optimistic at times which surprises me. I think youre right because three years ago i went to talk at a code conference and i dont code but i did say what you guys, would you people think about maybe having a code of ethics and people looked at me like what the hell are you even talking about and now it is being bandied about in its i wouldnt say a mainstream thing that people are talking about but its not unusual to hear it brought up pretty regularly. I would also say that some of the regulatory stuff going on in europe is forcing these companies to confront a lot of that. Pretty simple, one of the projects we did about privacy, google had to bring an inhouse philosopher in to discuss what is a privacy. I love the idea. Isnt that great . Its one. I think, and you know, why, there in europe there is a history that goes back to world war ii the right to privacy is seen in a very specific way there and we also have a right to privacy. Its called the Fourth Amendment but we dont seem to want to legislate towards it when it comes to the tech industry. We have time for one more. Yes. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] do you want to ask a question . Okay. No, but i take your point that the discussion is happening in all different sectors of the industry including privacy and security, as it should because i could fax and thats a great place to end it because we are at this moment where we are starting to see the reallife indications of some of the things that you sought being a build around you and cultural shifts happening right now, would you say . Every generation thanks it lives in extraordinary times and that is true. Great place to live it. Were going to hang out of it. Come check out the books and if you want to come say hi. Thank you for being here. [applause] [background noises] here is a look at some authors recently featured on the tvs after words. Its our weekly awfully interview program. Investigative journalist art levine reported on the Mental Health industry. New York Times Magazine conservator susie henson acted on her travels abroad and weighed in on americas global standing. Progressive policy Institute Senior fellow, David Osborne examined the Charter School movement and offered his outlook for the future of public education. In the coming weeks on after words credit surely will discuss the life and political career of newt gingrich, federal judge john newman will detail his career in the judicial system, first as a prosecutor and currently as a federal appellate judge. Former face the nation acre will examine the role of the media today. This weekend on after words, former radio host in msnbc contributor Charles Sykes will provide his thoughts on the conservative movement in america. Im a conservative who believes that america should be the sitting shining city on the hill. They reject the idea and they reject the values of independence rather its mostly. They dont believe that america is an idea and they believe that the geographical location that people five people of certain ethnic or racial backgrounds. There is a dark side there and the reality is that throughout the Campaign Donald trump had more than one opportunity to repudiate them, reject them, speak out against them and he dodged in delayed and went again and again and again. Its a pattern. This is not a one off, this is a problem in a cancer at the heart of the conservative movement. If we are not willing to say that the left is not right to tolerate these people. There are these moral judgments, key moments in every movement. Liberalism had to expel the communist in the late 1940s. Conservatism had to expel the birchers in the 60s. We have to deal with the right. After words airs on sunday at 9 00 p. M. Eastern. You can watch all the programs on a website, booktv. Org. The importance of discussing Artificial Intelligence may very well be crucial to human destiny. Trying to assess everything that could go wrong is not being alarmist, on the contrary, deep thinking, analysis and advanced planning will allow us to