Transcripts For CSPAN2 Patrick Henry 20170917

Patrick henry. If you didnt get a chance to buy the book they will be available afterwards. He will be signing them at the table out front. If you are members or donors, thank you for that support it is how we are able to bring you this program and so many others which i hope you have seen in the august issue of the associates. If you are here because you are interested in colonial history, let me point you to a program on october 30 about espionage and thats coming up monday octobe october 30. Before we begin, please silence your cell phone and you will be embarrassed if your phone rings on tv. Because as you see, the cspan cameras are here to record the presentation. If you are sitting somewhere where a tv light is bothering you, find another seat, because they are going to stay on. On. And then we get to qanda, someone is going to be running around to try to make sure that your questions are heard on camera so just be patient with thathe process. The speaker tonight is a historian whos written extensively about virginia and louisiana and is the former director of the National Monument Patrick Henry based on the plantation where he lived at the end of his life in the game, the bucs Patrick Henry champion of liberty is a big one with a lot of information about one of the Founding Fathers once you sort of get beyond a lot of people dont know much about him so i cant for one and very eager to learn. Thank you. [applause] good evening and thank you for coming out. Henry was among other things a trial lawyer and as we all know a very successful and effective lawyer. One of the stories ive seen in a couple places of peoples recollections of henry came from a couple of other younger attorneys. In the colonialin virginia and after the American Revolution, the county courts in which henry practiced before he went to the General Court and the circuit courts after the revolution basically had their schedules set up so that they met the first monday of the month the first thursday of the month and so on. They had these regular schedules set up so when the attorneys among other things who are very powerful in the legislature when they get from one quarter to the next in order to try their cases and serve their clients after the revolution when his pain was established, there was an attorney that finished a case and was getting ready to head off to the next courthouse when he realized that the great Patrick Henry. Before he headed on to the next courthouse. So, he listened to Patrick Henry for about 20 minutes. And then he looked at his watch and realized that an hour and ten minutes have passed and he was enthralled with the oratory. I told that story in order to remind you that i am not Patrick Henry. And i could make 20 minutes feel like an hour and ten minutes. [laughter] you have a handout but im going to try to refer to a couple incidents in terms of a handout. What i thought i could do tonight is basically speak to the four headings if you will. First i just wanted to introduce henry and say a few words at least developed by another biography of henry seemed to be appropriate. Second, i want to talk briefly about the cause and the stamp act. In the handout youve got a reproduction of the painting done in the 1830s. For some reason they always depict him speaking with an arm up like that. At the parsons cause case in hanover courthouse. I would like to talk about the interaction with slavery and i want to talk very briefly about the relationship to his contemporaries particularly jefferson and especially washington. And what i was thinking as we go through the evening and as we move from one subject to another or if at any time something isnt clear and you have a question, collar and i am happy to go whatever direction you want to go. The only reason i never use the powerpoint and in the technological daisies to use slides is because im never sure which sequence is going to end up being and it cant be pinned down that i very much enjoy questions and answers. Please feel free to holler and we will address it. There is a handout which is the site of the liberty or death speech in 1775. There itheres kind of an interg story Edward Carrington got to the convention and was already filled so he stood outside of a window at st. Johns church and heard about liberty or death speech and at the conclusion pronounced to whomever was around that he b need be buriedn this spot. And 1810 i think his family remembered that and thats where hes planted. [laughter] he was at critical moments in history where he made the difference. He was an orator and so i guess maybe if a space vehicle gets far enough away to pick up sound waves that have been traveling around for more than two centuries it is only under that kind of circumstance we would have any record of what he actually said. There were no tape recorders were video cameras and the like. What we do have hi this testimo, and i think that carringtons burial place is one form of testimony. People who heard henry and were impressed with his ability to communicate. I attribute his communication skills in a nutshell to two things. One, expected and perhaps another surprising. He was very much influenced as a young man by the presbyterian minister who later ended his career as the president of the university. The as a young man he was taken by his mother to hear the evangelical tail end of the great awakening. She was into that kind of thing whereas henrys father was a staunch member. But henrys mother used to take key and his siblings to hear Samuel Davies and the story goes that she would basically quiz him as to what was said and how it is said and such. This was a tremendous influence on the rhetorical skills. But the other secret of his rhetorical skills was that he was a good listener. And the diet all accounts the men that grew up with him. In the conversation they talked about he could basically find out things about somebody but it seems to be getting people to talk to one another. He was clearly an excellent and empathetic reader of the eyes and the sentiments of the jury or legislative body or group of citizens gathered at the courthouse for a polling place in such. I sometimes like to compare him to colombo. The speeches typically start off with wishywashy and they wont see mumbling because he was always articulate, but seemingly without protectio protection hes interacting with his listeners until he found out what is the best way to persuade them. And then at that point he would start to become much more articulate. Late in life, his fans if you will begin to recognize the point at which he went from just speaking to the really incredible flights of oratory and usually happened when he sometimesometimes with a very sd written notes or Something Like that. But thats some point in his presentations, the glasses went up and the oratory began. His friends and fans if you will call back the war cant. Henry was born just to give you a quick placement of his life, he was born in 1736, died in 1799. Washington a near contemporary was born and 32 and also guided 1799. Jefferson is nine years younger born in 43 and o of course that lives into the 19th century diane fourth of july in 1826. The question is sometimes asked, and rebecca posted to the fact we remember henry for the liberty or death speech in the campaign and whatever else he might have done. And unlike many of his contemporaries, John Marshall and others among them, henry doesnt have a place in the sort of national pantheon. I think that is in part because he never held National Office. He attended the first and Second Continental Congress in 74 and 75 and was a prominent participant in in those events. But in 76, he was back when congress was declaring independence and writing the intent of the like, henry was back in virginia helping to write the virginia constitution of 1776 and helping his friend and sort of political soulmate george mason to fight the virginia declaration of rights, which i will mention again at the closing of the talk. Anything so far that remains puzzling . His father was a scottish immigrant is studied for four years at the university, did not technically have a degree from the university of aberdeen because apparently, and i think that this is very much in contrast with some elements in todays world. Faced with the fact that you havhadto pay a little bit extrae already got the education. Nowadays we can see on Television People that are prepared to sell you a certificate with no questions asked as to whether you can have an education to go with it. So they can to virgini came to e 1720s and his uncle Patrick Henry came to virginia in about 1730 as they clergyman and they settled in the county north of richmond and his father married well. Washington comes to mind and in both cases i think a wealthy widow. Henry probably studied mostly with his father and he did not formally go to school. When you see the Patrick Henry college was eighth personal bill in virginia that appeals particularly to children whove been homeschooled, the homeschooling movement is that particular founding father. He does a couple of tries at a planter and merchant. His father tries to said he and his brother up with a store. They lack the credit that is necessary in the 18th century virginia economy and the deep pockets that their competitors had and it doesnt last for very long. Ultimately, he begins to read the law. There is a question that is completely open as to how long he read the law. Some people say for four weeks. Some people say six months. Jefferson doesnt really think that he read it at all. But he goes and passes the bar exam at the hands of george who later becomes one of the first law professors in america at william and mary and Jane Randolph is the attorne attornel of the colony. What ive done in your handout has reproduced the page from the bottom of one page and top of the next from the record books in 1761 henry begi begins practf law. This is south of handover and west of, i is very committed to the south it is south of handover but west of richmond down the bank. This is when he came and began practicing law. Some of the other counties in that part of the world so the records destroyed in the civil war and so this is the earliest record we have of him coming. One of the things if you note carefully the design of the authorization for him to become an attorney and if you look in his memoirs you will see jefferson recollecting that he never signed it. He wouldnt have done such a thing. One of the things you have to contend with an 18th century virginia is the fact that basically henry and jefferson were friends up until 1781 and then after that point, their friendship collapsed along with the invasion of the british minister charlton. Henry made his reputation in the complex legal thing but basically it has to do with the question of the legislative authority of virginias Colonial Legislature and imperial authorities. The issue was a temporary law that affected the way that they were paid going up to some crop failures and they protested those that control to the Anglican Church in virginia protested to the border trade and they got the wall declared null and void. As a result, it set up said tha dispute in the legislative authority but whether the commonwealth or th the copious legislature had the authority to make these kind of good walls is something that could be vetoed by the parliament or king. So lets make because phenomenally important in American History is its timing. Henry was arguing the cause in 1763. As a result of the popularity of his arguments one at the very first opportunity at the that te residents of Louisa County had to send him to the legislature they did so thursday was suddenly the lower house of the Colonial Assembly in 65 so henry was there when dust in fact da stanback arrived and the arguments that henry used and others had developed in the cause in a dispute over the Church Governance and the authority of the Legislature King of parliament were relevant to the stamp act. And its that coincidence of timing that put henry in a position of being phenomenally important and its that element of timing that put virginia suddenly into the forefront of what becomes a concerted or well organized colonial opposition to the act in 1765, which of course ultimately as a result showed opposition to. Whats important about the act, and this is one of those things almost old colonial revolutionary historian and whatever stripe will agree upon is probably two or three of those and all the world. Most of them will agree the american states and colonies articulate the constitutional principles that subsequently are at the core of dispute that leads to the revolution and ultimately independence. He writes a series of resolutions, seven of them that are affirming the power into parliament and he supports them with one of his famous speeches, the socalled Caesar Brutus speech where he points out that caesar first had his cromwell and george 3 an 3 and at that pt hes interrupted by the house crying out treason and henry is supposed to finish the sentence by saying they made a profit by their example. What happens of course is the resolutions, the governor is basically capable of leaning on the local printer to keep them published from williamsburg, but copies of all seven even the most radical left which were not even introduced in the legislature, copies of those were circulated to other colonies printed in maryland and rhode island and throughout the colonies. And they basically lay out sort of the backbone of the beginning of the resistance to the stamp act. So it has that kind of prominence early on. At this point hes just barely 30yearsold and one of the reasons this book frankly exists, ten years ago i was working on a book that i imagine would be about virginia in the resolution of the distinctive ae thing about Patrick Henry as he character in the story is that he was present at the beginning with the act. And he lived long enough to be present through the constitution and into 1799 into the First American party system and the creation of the new government. So, ten years ago i was thinking i was going to write this book about the revolution in virginia under the condition that virginias role in the National Story was a significant one and ten years ago i specifically thought there is absolutely no reason to do a biography of henry because there was probably nothing new to say. Five years into this project i suddenly realized there was nothing new to say because i kept stumbling upon things, new documents and the like, but also because when you look at one character in his interaction with other people, you see the dimensions of the guy in wisconsin, where i grew up and say no on sexual gender pronoun. You see the dimensions that you wouldnt see if you are simply going out to write a biography of one person. And so, i think the book reflects a number of different points. Not only new information that i was able to bring to bear from the news sources but also, the insight into the interaction with some prominent contemporaries. James madison is another guy that he worked with closely in the 1780s, george mason and so on, John Marshall in the 90s and his law practice. I wouldnt have written this book in five years ago i started on it and here it is. Let me turn if i need to henrys involvement with slavery. Is there a question, yes, sir. It was very undecided what to do about it for the stamp collected and they thought that it was useless and it was a done deal [inaudible] he twisted through. It goes to the circumstances around the stamp act that is a complex and fascinating subject worthy of its own book. What you are referring to is the way that george introduced the stamp act in parliament. Its when the Parliament Reconvenes we are going to propose a stamp act. They didnt see the problem of it was a nice lucrativ that wasb and applied for it. What happens then is in the party they take a full year to actually pass the stamp act so the announcement of the stamp act does cause the virginians to start talking. But as you indicated, it isnt until it is actually passed in march of 1765 and got arrives in virginia with henry being in the legislature. And you are absolutely right in referencing the fact that the older more conservative strategy if you will legislators in virginia were prepared not to take any action but because they had protested the. He had been to williamsburg on other business earlier. What was going on in terms of the extent that the act in virginia int and the involvement created a controversy among the virginia leaders had less to do with the principles then it have to do with the established leadership being offended by this nobody that came out of the frontier and has only been here for five days of stealing a march on them. Does that make sense . Thank you for your question. This documents henrys involvement with slavery more fully than weve ever had befo before. The topic is of course one of the great tragedies of American History. Its where the two originals in the American History and theres certainly much to that perspective. So what i tried to do is report and document the involvement with the complicity as weird as it was. For this im very grateful to my editor because henrys first surviving comment about slavery is not made until the end of the 1760s by which time hes already well in his 50s. That is where i took it up and the editor said to me you cant do that. He grew up in a slave society. You need to talk about that. And of course, he was absolutely right. That puts a historian who in my case went into the primary sources and a bit of a quandary and said okay now what do i do, and if he didnt say anything about slavery that we know until he was in his 30s. The. Thats where they were growing up in the 1730s and 40s and what i found particularly helpful, the positions taken by the presbyterian evangelist stuff we know in some of them speak about slavery, and also the positions that the church, the uncle reverend Patrick Henry would have expressed. So, basically i was able to start with attitude toward slavery that henry grew up with as a young man. They felt that slavery was sanctioned by the bible and the responsibility of face plate holder slaveholder is to teach them to read the scripture scrid bring them to christ. So, thats what the sort of where henry started in the 1740s. By 1773, we know because we have one of many letters that henry wrote, and this one happens to be the most famous, in 1773, henry wrote a letter in which he basically says it is evi that hu cannot justify it by religion or in terms of the principles of the enlightenment. Its an evil thing and yet here it is. Who would suppose in this modern age. They could say our families had slaves for four or five generations what am i supposed to do. He was admitting his complicity in the institution when he talks about owning his own purchase and yet it is wrong. Subsequently, he tends to be engaged in discussions with slavery particularly with robert and i was able to find more documentation for the buyer wont fan had been seen before. Most of them there is an archive of the. Robert decided he was going to start freeing up some of his slaves and giving them land and give them an opportunity to be Small Farmers and make their way in the world so its five years before this is legal in virginia and they passed a statute aimed 1782 that allowed for slaves and prior to that it was a rare happenstance. As it turns out and documented in these letters there is a letter to a philadelphia quaker in which he talks about the difficulties that he is having because his neighbors dont like it and they are threatening to use some arcane laws that are still possibly affect in the colonial period to claim ownership of. Hes clearly involved in the correspondence reflects the fact that he was supporting him and giving him legal advice as to how to make this work. Also he talked about how they are trying to change the law and in 1782, virginia this past legislation allowing slaveholders for whatever reas reason. It is in effect until about 1809 and thereabouts when it is repealed so it is at the high water point of the reservations about slavery. Doesnt that require if someone were to what they had to provide money to the states to assure that they wouldnt become a burden on the rest of society . There were conditions under the virginia law. One of them was the notion that after one year they needed to be the commonwealth. So that virginia law does not indicate a a multiracial society. There were also some protections in the law. There was any age limit on how old they believe could be to be freed because what the legislature didnt want to have happened was basically have them work people into their old age and then suddenly failed to take care of the. You mentioned one of the obligations was so they could read the scriptures. Whabut am i mistaken i was under the impression that the position was prohibiting the. What you are referring to is getting into the antebellum period and typically those those prevent whapresent what others k of as agitators from thinking other peoples slaves to read it as a slave owner it would have been not only legal, but people were encouraged to do this. As you indicate, there is a notion around. Its the reformers, liberals and whos to be meddling with the institutions. The [inaudible] that is reported in the late century book of the constitution of 1778. And i quoted in my book that particular line does not appear in the published record of debate in the constitution. On the other hand, there is an admonition by Edward Randolph challenging henry again using his language freely and asking hihenry to be more philosophica, which i think is basically calling on him to be go to a euphemism rather than to be blunt. The question of henry and this is where i was going to go next, one of the wrinkles in thinking about this which he did oppose for a lot of other reasons as well, thats one of the things he recognized and it makes an argument and i rely on this caller from california who put all this forward in a pivotal article about 20 years ago. But its what he called a structural argument for slavery. It would give some delegated powers of taxation to the new federal government but proposed. This is the funny part is that itof thatis the right word, ir. It was evil and repugnant and therefore the northern legislators not familiar with slavery would have to confront it because they have to levy taxes and make sure that they weighed down heavily on their constituents. So henry says here it is built if you get the power of taxes to the Central Authority by congress, its just axiomatic not as a matter of principle but just as a matter of hardball taxation politics that they are going to come of after southern slaves and that is the argument that he puts forth. And the argument only works with a premise that it is immoral. Those are the positions that he voiced in 1773 as well. Why would he object to that . Sickly by that time, there were a lot of that were scared out of their minds that this would lead to social disruption and bloodshed. Of course tragically, they were especially confirmed when station revolution breaks out. And its a point in th bd nine,0 and so on henry is retiring from politics and thats where his correspondence closes the. He believes it is evil, repugnant, but what h did he do about that . He cant figure out what to do about it, so he and a lot of this generation come back to the position that is tragically very much like where they started out. Only now slavery is wrong that we dont know what we would do about it, therefore we should treat them well. In fact transit, the only thing i think we can give henry and his contemporaries credit for its declaring that its wrong. There is a sense in this tragic story of the involvement with slavery and a sense in which we measure their failure by that standard that they try to uphold that its wrong and it cant be justified. Unfortunately it has been the Great American dilemma. What was it that made it so difficult for them to [inaudible] they found a repugnant but they couldnt figure out what to do about it. Whats causing the way of configuring out what to do about it. What got in the way to do anything about slavery and the answer to that would very. There were virginians who believed slavery was justified under the property rights. If you go back there is an article in the william and mary quarterly that published a bunch of 1780s petitions from counties in the james river and north carolina. It was to take away our slaves would be an affront to our property rights. I bring it up in part to answer your question but in part because that is part of the climate of opinion in which anybody in politics had to try to contend with making some change so what they did to was successful, they were able to end the slave trade and they were able to pass a law allowing slaveholders to free or minion at their slaves for whatever personal reason. There are a couple of celebrated cases of prominent virginians, Robert Carver of the Carter Family is one of them. One of them got inspired by the ideals of the revolution and did in fact freed the slaves. My friend called [inaudible] anyway, treating robert carters effort which was on a larger scale than roberts effort to try to free his slaves and give them land and start them out as slaveholders, but the other thing is of course theres a great deal of fear unleashed by the haitian revolution indicating as jefferson puts and notes on the state of virginia how can we free people seeking reinvention of a [inaudible] absolutely. We are seeing a great deal of documentation about that aspect of slaveholding in the antebellum south with the work of baptists and others have documented the ways not only of the southern economy but the whole economy was vastly dependent on forced labor of slaves. I dont mean for a second to minimize the horrors of the slave regime or to minimize henrys complicity. Im simply trying to explain what i was able to piece together how he made a transit from essentially its okay but treat them well and such to the position at the end of his life which i think that he shared with too many others. Its not okay, its evil but i dont know what to do. During the revolution they said the loudest cries for liberty come from the width from the drivers of negroes. Did he have Patrick Henry in mind when he said that . I think that he had a lot of virginians in mind but its the same juxtaposition of the existence of slavery into the attachment to liberty. People who study the rhetoric of the American Revolution will point to the fact that quite aside from the institution of the enslaved black people of america, the slavery in political discourse in 18th century britain had a distinct meaning which was to say slavery was the complete absence of ones autonomy. It was the polar opposite of liberty. Theres a famous section in the classic studies of the revolution that basically talks about the contagions of liberty and the way in which the language of politics in the 18th century inevitably draws the existence institution of the enslavement of the labor system and regime. Said into question because of its juxtaposition with slavery and liberty. [inaudible] justices on one side and self preservation is on the other. It was a basic property right [inaudible]. Virginia settlers on the frontier and native americans , he was able to see that center for multiracial society. He thought he would help to bring peace to the frontiers. How are we doing on time . Ten minutes. Okay. Hey dad, a question up here. Okay. [laughter] could you talk about him in virginia and the bill of rights. Sure. The question is can i talk about henry and freedom of religion and the bill of rights. Henry grew up in a household where religious toleration prevailed. His mother on sunday went off to hear the presbyterian evangelists and his father went to hear his uncle. Henry was, and this is something i chronicle in the book, he was a very active in his support of baptist prior to the American Revolution. He faced off against some other influential virginians and Archibald Curie who were in Chesterfield County were throwing them into prison. Henry went and argued on behalf of of the independent baptist. The problem with the independent baptist was that they did not acknowledge any authority so they constantly got themselves into crossways because unlike the presbyterian evangelicals who were willing to go along with religious toleration the degree to certain rules, the independent baptist wanted to be able to go wherever they went without any control by the state. So henry had a reputation, a very strong reputation of being interested in and supportive of the baptist. The early baptist writing about the history of their denomination in virginia singled him out as being one of the real heroes. The basis of the that, theres a chapter in the book of him meeting with two baptist leaders and basically the deal was struck that they would encourage their young men to go to fight for independence if the legislature as they did would allow the baptist to send ministers along with the troops, and thats the deal that was struck between henry in these two leaders in the early years of his governorship. Henry was involved with writing the virginia declaration of rights which was passed in june of 1776, right before the adoption of the constitution. At least one participant in the art you that henry was responsible for clause 14 and 15 which has to do with certain republican civic virtues and then in the case of the final clause that had to do with religious power ration which is something that was put forward. Toleration supposes that there was an established church that has the authority and supported by taxation, but tolerates dissenting groups would be the language language of the religious discourse. In the 1780s, he put forward, a number of other virginians and people throughout history that it was really important to maintain virtue and this is something they counted on them to do so he put forward a statute in 1784 that would have established state support for teachers of the christian religion. You can argue, i think ultimately he couldnt figure out how too do it, in much the same way that we havent yet figured out how to make a voucher system work for those people who are advocating this kind of thing in our own time. He put this forward, people debated it, basically i think he realized that if not only for it unworkable, it was unpopular with the baptist and the presbyterians and the beginnings of the methodist organizations in virginia as well. He basically abandoned his legislation and one off to become governor which gave James Madison the ability to rally henrys friends in support of the bill that Thomas Jefferson had written in 1776 but it was passed in 1785 which is a statute for religious freedom, and the difference of course is that the declaration writes speak of toleration and says the state should not have any involvement in support for religion. Id like too. [inaudible] if Patrick Henry is so accomplished and has done so many wonderful things, how come we as a nation dont really know him now or dont sell celebrate him . I dont think you would want to listen to hiphop that i write. The question is basically why dont we know more about him. I think part of the reason is that he didnt hold National Office. Henrys reputation, which is a whole another story, in the 1h century it was phenomenal. In fact, as it happens, it was 200 years ago this year that the first biography of Patrick Henry was written. That went through 2400 and before world war ii and it still in print. There is a core, one of the things thats funny about modern scholars, scholars are lazy. One of the funny irony about his reputation among scholars is that in the 19th century, he was thought to be important, and therefore in 1890 there was a three volume documentary addition of his life correspondence and speeches. It was not as good as we would like it to be today, but for a long time it was better than we had for lots of people. Then all of a sudden, in 1950, the scholarship was overturned by the jefferson papers. Scholars who are interested in various subjects today will go back to the sources and the sources they go to other papers James Madison and George Washington and Alexander Hamilton and on. Those three volumes of henry stuff look like theyre just really old and outdated and hardtofind so he could sort of left out, and the reason he wasnt elevated into the National Area is he never held National Office in the way that most of the people we think of as our National American heroes from that time typically held office. Yes or. [inaudible] virginia was his country. He did get offers and, if we had another half hour we could go into them. He got offers from washington on many, many occasions to become an investor and have a seat on the supreme court. Henry and washington, despite the fact they disagreed over the constitution they had forged a working relationship during the American Revolution and there were other events where washington always knew henry had his back and speaks about that in the last years of their live lives. So basically, by that time, henry was not in good health. He retired from politics and 1791, 92, and then basically his health goes downhill. Hes only 63 when he dies. If it is real quick we might be able to squeeze one and. [inaudible] what about people who felt the National Formation of the United States had to be confederation because he couldnt trust a central government. [inaudible] Confederation Just wasnt Strong Enough to work and needed. [inaudible] it sounds to me, from what youre saying that Patrick Henry mightve been more in favor of confederation. This again is more story that we have time for, but its here, you can read it, but basically in 1784 and five, he recognized Congress Needed to have more Financial Resources and he held young jimmy matteson and said you write something up in all supported. Between that conversation and the writing and ratification of the federal constitution, henry witnessed some new england congressmen over whether or not they could swap the navigation of the Mississippi River for some special trade deal with spain which wouldve been great for new england fishermen. Henry felt betrayed and suddenly became aware of the way in which sectional interest could work against virginia. Thats one of the core moments that turn his sentiments and lead him to be a very vigorous critic of the constitution during the ratification debates. My argument in the book is that basically he was playing political hardball and trying to achieve the kind of amendments that would make the National Government less dangerous to the interests. Now i know shes going to pull me off the stage so i want to say thank you very much for the opportunity to talk about henry. [applause] book tv is on facebook. Like us to get publishing news, scheduling updates, behindthescenes pictures and videos, author information and talk with authors during our live program. Good evening my name is tom campbell