Of course. And i read your book cuz and i was blown away. Just a the power and the honesty and the critique of a larger challenge taking place and how that if impacts individual life. Andy even before i would love to talk to about your process. So what was that process by want to tell this story . There are a lot of different pieces to that so michael was an amazing person my cousin to the book was about the was a talented writer but before he died so in the back of my head there what is a question of how to tell his story at the same time as a professor in to give us a lecture it is the famous lecture series of dubois lecture so i agreed to do these lectures and i kept giving the abstract a title like racing and the quality and as i got what closer i felt i cannot possibly try to talk about africanamerican experience without the story so that was the first just committing to do that and then reaching into my Family Members and asking for permission because it is everybodys story especially his mother and i needed to interview people but one of the hardest things it is embarrassing to say but my family never talked about what happened to michael. Sorry. What i started to interview my family it had many years since he had died but the firsttime we have tried to understand. So the fact they dont come to the surface. That was true in our family indebted is happening all over the country and failure to understand what is happening with young people with young men of color in this country was embarrassing it took so long that the process was about a family coming to a understand that is where writing the book was. You feel the process has come to a beautiful tangible conclusion . I am so grateful and my aunt in particular she said yes, talk to me and i am very grateful for openness and willingness that for her that it was liberation for herself. And also to express gratitude every bed he had the peace of the puzzle what happened to this beloved child putting all the pieces together you can make sense of that. There is absolution. I was taken by the title because in some ways there is the double entendre because that is my a cuz but also cause like because can you talk about the process . That is a great question going back to the process from a writers process when i was a kid and i wanted to be a poet when i grew up. I am not a poet but it has always stayed with me and so as i was wrestling with the need to tell his story that it just appeared and then i knew what to do like understood answering those questions so what are they . Why was he in prison for so long . Once i knew those were my questions it was just poetry that gave me the title and it all came together. And on page 60 so could you read that paragraph . Eight years after i got grounded for speaking to a class in a friends car my 15 year old cousin who also did not yet have a drivers license was arrested for the first time for the attempted carjacking a few months later to sit in court and that he wore the warner suit. That the judge determined to be charged as an adult. Is the story of children. Guest it is. That is what struck me. I wanted wheels to sneak into my college classs. That is dirty but i wanted that mobility i could not ride in my friends car and my cousin wanted mobility he wanted wheels of a different context in one of the worst neighborhoods in a los angeles so that it was not too dangerous and then that was to take somebodys car and went to prison 11 years. Host when he started to go through this process you explain in such detail what that did to him. Where almost the conclusion that this has been baked what was that like for you to watch that happen in realtime . But looking back on that to see the trajectory. And that is predictable. So if it is the hope that you have to completely imagine that alternative trajectory. So you cannot proceed without hope but hope by definition with that view of reality. It is a hard thing in the contrast to hope and move forward with that dynamics of predictability that you try to overcome. For those who have not yet had a chance to pick up the book can you talk about your background . I am one of two kids in a college town in Southern California. And in many ways with the academic family but my dad was from an extended family in so many ended up in Southern California so we had a lot of cousins. And with family holidays and one that we were particularly close. And as a single mom worked her way into a nursing. In it is hard twos stretch this time and resources but we did some growing up. The of beautiful kid the first baying they said was his incredible smile super talkative, of motor mouth his stammer when he was little because he was so much in so excited could not get it out fast enough. As a very gentle kid to end up in prison the at the other person who had been violent in the archives in our lives nobody would describe him as violent. Host how does that have been . To say this is not a five person in than ends up involved but to request that the equivalent to get documents and with those judicial records one of those things that the witness the victim of the carjacking testifies he was at the ground the entire time. So in the first instance so if you have to compress and a very small and serve that when he was ted his mother met and married a man with high hopes for the future but he was violent and that was an unstable relationship in a period of five years. In that they have to happen in the middle of the academic year. So when were all going through so to figure out who you are but to be lonely or isolated so when we landed in a los angeles than there was that social world to provide opportunity and as the newcomer stranger to that territory those who came up didnt always have to do with that combination so that made him very full verbal tune those techniques. Was ever a topic of conversation among family . We add had no idea. Michaels mother did not know. To know what i know for what he had been involved in but not about the of their peace and then to put battle to gather with that involvement bin then i could see that pattern of dangers kids to get involved in those 18 months but that is the common pattern benefits to achieve the bitterly none of us. What is the fact we fail to see that and to coordinate care as the failure of our family no question. Host just a teenager he gets a sentence. Guest yes. It and didnt california in the 90s is justin the preceding 18 months with the three strikes your out law and that judicial system still trying to figure out how that meant it was being used in ways that were surprising. Three times . Convicted of three felonies it is between 25 years and the life you could get more than one felony charge is a single and seven. And then with one incident those both counts when you add those up. After he was arrested he confessed he also attempted to rob a couple of other people so because he confessed those are other felony charges they added. So the judge says you confess to your convected that is your three strikes so that was the framework that was rhetorical to inviting him to a plea bargain. So that depended on the fact that the judge made the determination that he would be tried as an adult and bin trying those as adults. Live and to step up to the other sentences. In that experience of living through that that the framework was different than we understood it to be. We just did not gather those forces effectively. And it feels a possible for Something Like that. That use of mandatory minimums in in sentencing with three strikes youre out has produced all kinds of the absurd to sentences in the criminal justice system. That was a criminal distorted system and that was huge as a society trying to talk about it that we need a broader wake up on this topic so yes when you think about kids in particular literally it does seem impossible that a young person sent to an adult prison will come out better off and able to live day productive life . Prison is brutal and when you put a young person in their for the first conviction that they do have a chance to go with a different direction so i do believe juvenile justice is where we could completely reorganize how we approach that with rehabilitation and development. Host you really try to help the reader if they dont have experience so you really try in the book to make them visualize that. So help our viewer right now to understand what were talking about. Guest there are so many Little Details one end of the of spectrum is the effort to get the education that in the 90s states and federal government have eviscerated opportunities. And with access to college courses. So thats is of big structure but then the only classs he can take an with soft cover books. With the economics so now we were reduced to the two clauses that were viable. So that is the minute this of the control so the number of hoops you have to work through to get anything at all done. That is english 101. In one of the details that stayed with me that prison life that is structured along those racial lines. In what happens along the street so if day breakout along those racial lines he had a latino dance partner so when a fight would breakout they would act like they were fighting so they didnt get her and nobody would think that they were not participating. So that was a detailed. Is those small details about survival that are really important for people to understand it is impossible for someone to enter into a situation like that and come back the same. Not necessarily to say they are damaged but it is impossible to come back so how was he different . His stammer was gone. [laughter] but he was quieter and more subdued. He still had the capacity for joyful this but as a child it was part of his neighbor you could not say that any longer. So there is a much deeper quiet and to be very protective of his mother and was stronger over trying with attentive carrying directed at his mother. What did you hear they say we just dont talk about it. People who faulted world war ii. And that is what it is like. So the things that i learned about michael team for when he was in prison and then the of wall came down then there was no more talking about that time. So what about when it became personal . If anything is retrospectively in the criminaljustice system it was exploding i never thought about that. But that was the most meaningful phenomenon and when i got to college we read all these speeches. In there is no mention of prison. A World Without prison . How can that be . That is a sharp contrast so that drove my intellectual interest. To emerge from the contrast because i was not self aware i was pursuing this but was thinking of punishment from that point forward. So philosophically i got engaged early so even writing my dissertation that introduction was under that three strikes law. Trying to understand those developments so i have a hope when i wrote that dissertation which in the 19th century the jury was not enforced. With that jury nullification and then to enforce the law to set will not convict anybody but basically it is unenforceable bill will look like there was jury nullification going on so i have been interested in in criminaljustice. Is interesting a the power of the narrative to help people understand so this is not an academic understanding of the criminaljustice system you write it is in the way that people see that it their own minds and that if you mean beecher. Such as helping people to see this a way that we are raising young people. And in order to see that you have to look at their life and feel what it is like to be lost and confused at 11 or 12 to figure out your id depended trajectory so all those the in the summer of the verge so why did i make it safe . There was a lot of luck involved in with that degree of difficulty. Yes my degree was way lower than my cousins the yet he is responsible with the major degree of difficulty scale and we have to rid knowledge that i believe as a society so if you can see that degree of difficulty issue so put yourself back in in each of those years who are the kids you are paying now with . So lucky man michael during that same moment. Is that a personal responsibility or society . A double helix. The customer collectively we build that. In the world we live in there are different degrees of difficulty so the context of where they are born it doesnt matter so to do that massively difficult being and succeeded but most people who try bad breaks their back so in that regard at the end of the data is not all personal responsibility with that incredible disparity as they come of into the world. Host so michael comes home a young man at that point. Not a child and has a context to be institutionalized at the core part of his childhood. What did you see about his prospects . With the ability to live a successful life . And then he was out about six months when the problem started to become apparent. And then there is more connections. So in his case that was a bad generally but he had a girlfriend he loved profoundly as a fellow inmate we did not know she was still in his life and that became apparent i think honestly he did not know if he would reconnect with her. With the one and only love of his life if he would cut that off to build a world complete these separate. Host you do a really good job to explain in the dynamics of their relationship to understand the fact to have a clear sense this was not the healthiest relationship what is the psychology behind that . So they can have that experience in their life if they are being honest with themselves there is something unhealthy about this. With the intensity of the adolescents so going to present at 15 or to come up with a relationship and it makes sense in the adolescent relationship at that played in their 20s. And to have that los takes practice relationship it is craziness. And then to go away from our the summer and there are questions of adolescents with those granted relationships because it just isnt the trajectory from adolescence to adult relationship and that prison has something to do with that . And princeton i mean prison. [laughter] that was a bad slip. [laughter] so why is it that will stun development in different ways. That it complicates growth that i did even know how to talk about that. It is even structural. In the ability to keep relationships and to amend relationships with the structure in place back into society so other basic things. So it is also a psychological edge of a structural. No question about it. And the spread of hiv right now it is the day crisis but because we have a lot of hiv circulating in prisons and men are heterosexual or bisexual so those numbers are staggering so that is a Public Health crisis so when you got word about michael and his passing what was your gatt reaction . Guest for so many tragedies i would be embarrassed to claim anything special but it is just a complete inner collapse physically and emotionally. I was at a garden party that was a jovial location it was a sunny day. Host how did you find out . My dad called in my husband he did read a full load and said michael. I just waited and he said he is dead which i had just seen him not even one month earlier. We had just gotten married and he was at the wedding. So if my head to be energetic to be energetic as ever. Host what space was he in . Guest again by the end of his life he had gotten very good at keeping his life separate from his daily from his prison connections so when we saw him at the wedding and family occasions he seemed a good. He looked good. He looked clean and great but at that point getting increasingly involved in the violin world connected to his girlfriend and her own cousin as it happened. I dont know the details i have river and some things from the Police Report but it is clear that by the end of his life criminality is what he was involved with. Host just because your layout it is almost like the people at that point and probably less surprised by those Family Members. Absolutely. And a way to underscore the contrast of the two worlds he had to funerals. [laughter] his mother had one at the church it was what i was used to growing up with my grandfather as a baptist preacher with beautiful music with color and Community Warmth completely to recognize the Civilrights Movement there is a service that the church that michael attended headed by a pastor who made it partly his mission to engaged in street activity and those whod turned out that that were much more closely connected to the world he was now living and the Police Showed up at that service said they were investigating but that day of those Funeral Services was a clear view that we started to have what his life had become in the last year. How did your relationship with michael change after he died . Guest that is interesting. That is super interesting. Michael used to send me mothers day cards when he was imprisoned. I was very grateful for and i am still very grateful for them. When he was imprisoned we were very close friends. We would talk and it was a peer relationship. He was a very supportive person. Although by the end of his life he was a little voice of wisdom in the head this helps me to see danger signs and other people he has taught me how to look for the trouble that people have suggested giving simple he loved the outdoors. He needed that and imprisoned he fought fires he was part of the california inmate firefighting crew and you could hear it in his voice that was called and good period and his schoolwork kept him busy but the activity outdoors so only after he died i got clarity about that he did that together he ran the marathon and he loved to be outside. So i watch him and think that is what michael was like to be outside to be alongside school. Adolf a guy would have spotted that all honesty without his voice in my head with your Family Members and michael . He is a beautiful person but it always like to say if you dont know if it is everywhere, dont give me this there is no talent in this innercity neighborhood for this devastated parts of appalachia so if we dont foster that and everybody then we are feeling feeling then to friends and family into the much more selfconscious to not let shame qiviut from telling people what is going on because michaels life was hindered by the degree of difficulty his family set for him and was full of injustices and his family that hid his schaede and did not talk or dive into the problems we were addressing. That is what were all thinking about. The idea to understand the structural challenges to not be open and honest. Yes. Fake you for saying that. That is what i am trying to say so there was a talk at the beginning of the conversation i gave this as a set of lectures at harvard it was a weird experience for the audience i basically cried through the whole thing they were very generous. They dont come to an academic lecture so this incredible a Group Therapy but what was powerful is the number of people that i never told anybody have a Family Member in prison it was not a racial. The prison system is as big as ours . With that prison population and . There is a lot of stories up there were not telling. We have to get those stories out. So thank you for saying that. Not talking about it. Somebody said something you know the best way to make a friend. The best way to make a friend is tell a secret because then they feel you the bin foldable with them but theyre willing to be vulnerable with you because they feel youre willing to be full verbal that i got myself more than i can a selfconscious the realized. So yes i did make myself full verbal. So we agree to do this . So there you have it. Host what did you you want people to get from this story . That if nothing else i want you to walk away with this . Our prison system with the injustice we need to find our way out of mass incarceration. Host because of what it is doing. Guest to millions of young men like michael. And to all of those that there are these millions of prisoners now in with that negative current and it is insane. So what have you seen around that issue that gives hope . Guest there are two places to begin so i have been pushing and pulling how you lead to mass incarceration every which way. But i have come to believe to end the war it is not the sole cause but mandatory minimums are another huge part of the problem but what i mean by that specifically is to legalize marijuana and decriminalized cocaine and heroin that is an important distinction with legalization and decriminalization it is like alcohol you can buy it decriminalization means it is still a misdemeanor but you dont get a felony and portugal has experimented when it is a misdemeanor they are more willing to ask for help with the very serious investment in Public Health to deal with the adduction paradigm with abstinence paradigm there is never any drug use of birth ever but they have spent 100 billion per year on illegal drugs. It does happen but it takes the of black market out of it with regards to marijuana to invest those resources with those highlevel traffickers and to some extent were already jimmying some of this but they dont really prosecute people any longer for possession there is some disparities but even though they dont do what is on the books legally, people take what theyre doing is a felony they will hide that so we keep submerging the Public Health problem under the veil of darkness anc grossi. So to use the tools of Public Health and reduce the scope of the black market to come back into a legal economy with Economic Opportunity and how they are currently participating in the black market economy back into the legal economy. When people make the argument to end mass incarceration people come back to say only 14 percent in prison right now is a drug offense but that is only 14 percent but that is an argument because so many other actions are connected and not only that but that is outside the rule of law. So the number of things it is much bigger than 14 i believe because so many resources of criminaljustice have been directed to fight the war on drugs sinbads to the problem that they could focus their resources where theyre needed to help restore a peaceful equilibrium in the neighborhoods that are currently tormented. I have one final question what is next for you . Guest there is always something. I had the luxury of being a professor to control your own time. With this ongoing passion as a political philosopher. And i suppose to give that to the publisher one year from now. I am incredibly thankful for this type read your contribution is it important story. I appreciated. Batted say big decision to make. But they dont necessarily show up as a former first lady they show up. That is part of the devastation of the continuity of our government and there i was on the platform feeling like me out of body experience in this speech was of cry. This american carnage stops. What an opportunity to say either product supporters but that is not what we heard at all