Transcripts For CSPAN2 Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20240622

Is given turkey the capacity to take greater action both inside turkey and outside. The point that needs to be made, the first line of defense against foreign fighters entering syria isnt the turkish border. The first line occurs back in the homelands with everything they be within the coalition. This is preventive measures that are necessary but also the legal measures taken for accountability that must be closed as well. So foreign fighter, stopping before fire flow isnt what happens at the turkish border. It is what happens back in homeless make every effort possible to do with the issue of radicalization at the measures, legal measures taken to make it difficult to move from source countries to transit countries. You describe isis as being in pretty good financial shape the what did the u. S. Government learn from a special operations raid that either gidget even greater pause about this, what with the pricey coming out of that, and what can you tell us about some of the things youve learned that may be able to exploit in general terms . That operation was quite important for us. As i alluded to earlier one of the most important things we are doing right now is simply gathering intelligence and clicking what about knowledge and isis, how much did it in greater visibility . I dont know about the basic knowledge, his leadership but certainly its been a real treasure trove of information for us from the financial side. Its information we are still what kind of things . I cant get into specifics of the information that we received but abu sayyaf was an important financial figure and that rate is given us in such that were going to be do you see economic or financial more credible opponent adversaries than they did before . Our integration is Getting Better and better. That rate is an important part of the. Theres been many other intelligence operations that have given us increasing insight into the financial. As i said they have a lot of money. We knew that before the transport rate. Abu sayyaf raid. But for more details we can get the more individuals we can understand what involved, the more we can understand the network, the more wer we are ao work with our iraqi partners in particular on shutting these networks down. If something were quite interested in doing that we are actively doing and that our iraqi partners are joining us in. Ambassador, tell us more about the role that iran is going on the ground with its trainers on the ground, militias that have been trained, economically perhaps anything if you could give us more of a regional perspective. Weve been talking a lot about iraq whats going on in syria has direct impact as things seem to be constructing for the assad regime and a mr. And daesh increase their hold on the ground. People need to understand the importance of the country is not just the relation to recent history. Its a fault line in relation to nationality, relations to ethnicity, she is center, so ill countries versus non. The geography of iraq itself, the history, these are all factors that play a role and will continue to play a golf iraq to be important in relation to iran, the threat of isis is a threat to its of no National Security or whether its borders, isis at the time last year there were 40 kilometers away from the borders. More or less to have what i will call open check with iraq. What do you need close the offices virtually anything you wanted, troops and everything else. We think this is primarily an iraqi driven project. We need support from others but we cannot do without the support but at the same time we need to go to the process spirit that relationship has given people pause. Thats a washington problem, not an iraqi problem. On the ground how do they deconflict . Actually i dont think ive yet to find any single reviews and iranians have similar problems with each other. Because we can. Have been careful in how do we do with that, manage that relationship with we understand the nuances and weve not asked both parties to be in conflict in relation to iraq. What you might call commonalities. I dont think theres an common Operational Center. We have a common Operational Center with the United States, very significant with our allies in baghdad and the krb region. Thats a very important center for us. We have, they have been more forward positioned. Very few advisors, less than 200 in comparison to 3000 u. S. The problem is not that. The problem is they are literally on the front. They are literate advising us spent unlike the americas are back at headquarters iranians are right on they have the perspective, experience and so on. We can see commonalities but as for the politics concern we are extremely careful not to make parties because we need others. By the way yesterday there was a report in belgium talk about their support. We do not need the belgian military support the political support. So intifada we said we need all parties to help us. We see a Common Threat with come a, then with other countries including as much as we can get help, we have no psychological obstacle to the support of any country in our fight including iran. I wanted each one of the palace go down to the quick response. One of the main messages us, director comey last night through saturday johnson is this messaging campaign, the strength of the Propaganda Machine to isis has been generating particularly in recent months according to the director. General allen, you said this can be a message that is an american message. Ambassador, im sure you been working hard with your colleagues in baghdad. Lets start with you at this time. Was going on in iraq or working within the arab countries in the gulf to try to combat this message where presumably you make of his governmental or nongovernmental organizations may have more credibility . The messaging, primary message was talking about is that isis is a counsel in our body. We need to deal fact with it. Thats the key message, is this foreign entity should not hijack the sunni branch, should not hijack islamic bread and so it should not be perceived as which Michael International [inaudible] or any other country. I think people now do not see what, but because do not see friendliness of isis spent they dont see a . No. Population wise, no. However, talked about the richness of them. You dont need to be very rich to be destructive or because they do not maintain a state so, therefore, sellers or anything else they did not pay that. To that effect you do have a significant structure force, true, but to the hijack them what your date . No. Do we have a silent majority, yes. Can make the more awake and more vocal in the fight against isis. Sounds like have the money to spend, money to burn. They attract much of the classic foreign fighters but families, women and children coming in being part of this almost a settlement campaign if you will. How do you combat that in a counter messaging standpoint . My specialty certainly isnt countering messaging. That message i have is that we are going to fix this in a point finance and economic pressure against isil. Ive been at a treasure partner for over 15 years and i spent that entire time listening to get going to be the Financial Measures dont work and cant work. I was there in 2006 at the very beginning when we first started to devise iran strangers strategy. The one thing everyone agreed as sanctions cant work. Now one thing really thing everybody agrees on this that what brought i bring to the table is the economic pressure. We will succeed in depriving them of their ability to use their resources. John allen you said last week as part is an uphill battle to the u. S. Coalition. As you go around the world talking to people and as we are today this message simply resonating with young people who are trying to do. How do you counter that . Well, constantly look at all messaging strategy. Its about counting the message but also about reinforcing regional, ethnic, racial, religious norms that work, the families, the aspects of regional societies that create a strength and, if you will, and ability to be impervious to this message. Were constantly looking for ways both to counter the message and to strengthen the faith of islam and to strengthen regional norms. And we do that by talking costly with our regional partners are for example, within the middle east and junior King Abdullah talk about it regularly. First we must take back our faith what i think we all agree with him on, but it also has been very clear in saying that in the middle east the counter messaging and the importance of the messaging must havent ever faced and a muslim voice. When ive been out to Southeast Asia have spoken with the leaders in Southeast Asia in particular they are deeply concerned about the potential for the spread of violent extremism and groups that would be destabilizing over the long term. So we will probably see just as recently with open to counter messaging joint Operations Center in abu dhabi which will end of the movies we will probably see one of those come to fruition in Southeast Asia are looking for them in other places as well so that we can create a regional, and International Network of regional messaging centers that we can energize quickly with localized messaging that can provide the support we need of to target the population and also to counter another that has relevance in less you deal some defeated to isis on the ground. Is a complete change, the perception that isis is either winning or holding their own. And isis is losing. When you listen closely to the tactical communications, theyve got problems with their morale right now. Not long after they burned the greek captain, a number of isil foreign fighters rebelled against that kind brutality and they were executed by the central government, central element within daesh. There was during the period of time kobani a moment in the campaign when everyone said that were going to lose that and its going to be a quick victory for daesh. Daesh impaled itself on the defense of kobani and if they can you listen to the telephone traffic, they were terrified about being sent to comply because they knew there was only one outcome, either killed by the defenders or killed by coalition air. Recent activities along the border in syria have rendered other similar very clear messages that there many places within the daesh infrastructure within morale is not good. And as we we begin to strangle the defenses or the finances, it becomes more difficult to sustain their operations and to pay their fighters. Thats what a great addition for all problems. To follow on what general allen talk about the in relation to mainstream islam, its confusing the battle. Mainstream islam and dozens of countries and population. In the sense of focused messaging thats an issue which we all have to work on. Make sure the Vulnerable People are not attracted to it. At the global message, global effort. I think of aspect of it is in this sense of iraq, thats more manageable and coalition focus on the. Series is a totally different issue. Until syria is more vocal is unfortunate the brand of isis will not diminish. I will turn it over to collections from you. Right down here. Questions from you. Chris with cbs news. Question for general allen. Can you describe a little bit whether the discussions and the nature of the discussions with the turkish government of Prime Minister erdogan about the possibility of instituting some kind of air exclusion zone in Northern Syria have been wellknown that the turks a have asked for that and would like to see some kind of regime put in place by our air assets in the north. Was that anyone part of the discussions to obtain the use of no. Spirit is this something that is ongoing . No. Is not part of the discussion. Not adult . No. Michael . Mike with yahoo news. There were some conflicting [inaudible] was in line to sanctions as part of this. Can you clarify [inaudible] and if so was your office consulted before his name was put on the list . So im really not here to talk about the details of the Nuclear Negotiations with iran. As a general matter as anyone knows the Nuclear Related sanctions will be lifted at the time that irans compliance with agreed has been verified. But with respect to details on that im really would have to go back and get back to you. Im sorry, busy on what list . Soundtrack. General trend something to the extent he is designated for his involvement soleimani terrorist activities they would remain sanctioned. To the extent that the sanctions against him are related to the nuclear program, those sanctions will be lifted. Those sanctions will be lifted when irans complaint with the ingredient has been verified. All the way in the back. Id like to have a question to the ambassador. Mr. Ambassador, what is iraq . Is the sunni . Is it shiite, was a group of nationalists as a result , banded together to form a new country . Where is it going from here and how do you see it today . This is geopolitics of history. [laughter] im occurred and shia, the word he put me into digital . [laughter] pigeonhole. Iraq has evolved as a country, 2003 as giving us a new focus, different project based on democracy, liberalism, market economy. Thats different to the previous 50, 60 years of dictatorship, police state we are in an evolving country in the sense of a new project social contract between of the communities. How do we form . Are we moving forward . I think its still ongoing. Its up to Us Communities to how much we want to have what i must call interdependency and particularly to strengthen not just the issue of identity but the issue of interest and the issue of prosperity of the country. Is not unique to iraq. Its up to us iraqis to do something about it. National support is required. Then shape has taken place after the post arab spring, taking effect of our region. Its in our hands what we can do about this. Its got an identity, yes. Its up to us to define the identity moving forward. Thank you. Over here in the corner. Some European Countries are trying a new approach additionally. Denmark, for example, is focusing on foreign fighters who are returning to the country trying to find those who might be disillusioned and would be acting as advocates against daesh. And that is very strong and powerful message as we saw last week on german tv when one returned fire actually said this is nothing to do with islam. This is just the pure slaughter of women and children i was wondering is that an approach we should pursue in the future . It absolutely is that its been something we spent a lot of time looking at. When foreign fighters come on, until, one way or the other, when foreign fighters, and how we do with them is going to be very important. The idea of a single sanction solution which is longterm detention or imprisonment is probably a good into Political Software we want to be. What we have discovered in denmark in fact is a leader in this area. There are other european states have as well. Saudi arabia has been a leader in this, but the country that it spent a good bit of time studying public has been singapore which is one of the key members of the coalition, and they have an active Deradicalization Program for the foreign fighters that have either arrested or have come home with the intention ultimately of not permitting longterm detention or imprisoned to be the single sanction outcome of someone returning. The reason for that is if you view they did with foreign fighters in a circular wave rather than a linear way, if you and the foreign fighters against the point of radicalization whether its social media or the be imam or the family, you can have a very powerful effect upon that moment of radicalization by recruiting the foreign fighters, deradicalize event, reintegrating them so that their voices are prominent in the process at the front end of the establishment or the development of foreign fighters. The two most important voices that we have heard in this process, something were watching very closely within the coalition at encouraging states to adapt in their own way, rehabilitation processes, has been the foreign fighters who is disillusioned and is able to survive to get home, stable to message of the horror. This isnt an islamic utopia. This is just a nightmare being part of daesh. So the one voice, the rehabilitated foreign fighter is a republic or the other voice that is very powerful in in keeping order preventing radicalization is the mother of it, that is given up someone to pay for fighter. They are gone at have lost complete contact with them or they are gone and they have been killed. On have come back and theyre in longterm detention. So those two factors are very important in deradicalization and preventive measure at the front end of the potential production of foreign fighters to we are watching closely and we think its an important dimension of how the coalition can get access. Anyone else . National public radio. Following on the subject of his question and your point about morale, a couple of months ago we heard that crisis had decreed that Truck Drivers were not to pick up any fighters along the road because they were concerned that lots of people were deserting. Are you seeing any sort of upkick in desertion from some of the fighters who with her . We are. The reporting is a very sketchy though, but the reporting, the sense of disillusionment what the reason they came to begin with. This sense of being empowered from whatever their point of origin was, a sense of joining a holy cause to support the socalled caliphate is often dispelled very quickly when they get to the region. And so we have heard about desertions. We have seen some of the foreign fighters have come on to talk about widespread disaffection and ranks. But even with those reports weve also heard pretty significant reporting updated some only executing elements of the foreign Fighter Community that displayed any willingness to take a path apart from the caliphate are the daesh internal regulations. And so the sense they are a monolith, a juggernaut, the since they are inevitable, all of that is far from the truth. Its in fact nowhere near the truth. Right here in the middle. Thank you. Gary lauder. It seems that this is mostly about hearts and minds, and as is normal is being treated me as a military type of operation. So the question is to what extent has or should our government be trying to win the hearts and minds insofar as for example, was going on within the mideast is a perfect example of what there should be a separation of mosque and state. The most, i mean, the fact that she is and shia and sunnis are fighting with whats happening with in egypt, every country proves the point that the mixture of religion and stated is a really, really bad idea. And so speed is can you get to your question is, can you comment on what you think should be done in that area . Ambassador . There is another decide not getting isis, daesh of breathing space and ability to control and be on the offensive. So that affects iraq, syria and other areas on the military side. Thats inevitably daesh has its own destruction. However, until that moment the trail of destruction, identity, heritage and others, thats a threat. Its not that daesh itself will flourish, no. It has destruction but it will take a lot of damage with itself. As far as trying to contain the problem with the middle east, i dont think its just a sectarian aspect of the. What you see in libya is nothing to do with the sunnis and the shia. Thats internal. What you tell them relation to the jihadi to try to go to france or belgium or others, its more of disillusionment which we need to focus on. To that effect i think that i should not have antiislamic messaging. Been used to facilitate how and bring partners, countries, whether its in egypt are in saudi arabia and others to pass the message of any nation for daesh as ideology. That is a competition. I dont think you can go and separate the state from sort of the church from the state aspect of it or the mosque in our region. Deeply rooted and it will be iloutside of futile project to combat. However, for the state to of rule of law, respect of international and understanding what it is a nationstate concept and adhere to that, thats a clear message we have to work on. Thats our obligation. Thats great to to end on. Want to thank all the panelists and thank the audience for great questions. Thanks again. [applause] [inaudible conversations] cspan is in des moines, iowa state fair and road to the white house coverage of president ial candidates. Our live coverage is on cspan, cspan radio and cspan. Org as the candidates want the fairgrounds and speak at the des moines registers candidate hope box pictures the schedule. More now from the Aspen Security Forum and a look at isis inspired Homeland Security threats and what Law Enforcement agencies are doing to counter those threats. We hear from a top lawyer for the Central Intelligence agency and the assistant attorney general for National Security. Good afternoon, everyone. Hopefully we can get everybody back from lunch. My name is chris young, Senior Vice President at intel and the general manager for intel security business. Summer you may also know as mcafee. I had the pleasure to introduce our next panel. Which is entitled the role of law and Law Enforcement in securing our nation. And in the Justice Department and the cia we have two other Government Agencies that are most engaged in preventing terrorism from attacking the homeland. The challenge of securing our homeland has grown, so has public scrutiny of some components of that effort including surveillance and detention of suspects. This panel is going to be moderated from the associated press. Force work at ap, ken covert National Security or the l. A. Times for usa today and the Philadelphia Inquirer where among his many interesting assignments he was both offered both as an embedded an independent reporter during the iraq war. This topic is of real interest to all of us at i think you would agree with that. So im looking forward to the subject and id like to now turn it over to ken. Thank you so much, chris. [applause] its an honor to be back your investment before such an esteemed audience with two people, two career Public Servants who rank among washingtons most accomplished National Security lawyers. To my far left a is caroline krass, it was confirmed as general counsel in march 2014 her job includes writing covert action memos, drone target another was negotiating sensitive intelligence issues, most of which she probably cant talk with us today but will try. Before that she was Principal Deputy assistant attorney general and office of Legal Council for the department of justice, many years of government service, a graduate of yale law school. And john carlin who many of you know from years past at aspen, confirmed as assistant attorney general or National Security in april 2014. He is written counterterrorism, counter espionage and cybersecurity. He joined nsd in 2011 after serving chief of staff and senior counsel to form fbi director bob mueller. Federal prosecutor, under flawed grief and harvard, ba from williams college. Which happens to be my alma mater. John was not become law, and i was on the Football Team which explains why i am asking the question and he is answering them. [laughter] i want to talk about the nature, changing nature of the threat to the homeland which is gotten a lot of discussion. Maybe you could start by talking because youre focusing these Law Enforcement efforts against homegrown radicals. Talk about what you was in and out of threats have changed. Thanks for the introduction and its great to be back at aspen. We are seeing a fundamental shift in the threat towards the homeland. What we are seeing is a terrorist groups have changed their Business Model. Their Business Model now is use social media to to target the young and the portable, to target both young but also those who are mentally ill. This is a shift from alqaeda who may want to have a cadre of individuals who they would bring over to train. They tended to be older, late 20s or in their 30s. And alqaeda carefully controlled his brain and look to plan for sometimes months or years to conduct large scale spectacular attacks. Isil and its Business Model is encouraging people to commit attacks were ever they are and anthe not they have any other connection with isil, they will claim credit for the attack. So how is that reflecting insensible racing in the homeland . We have seen a dramatic increase in the number of arrests related to this shift. We got over 50 arrests or criminal prosecutions in the bout the last 18 months to in the beginning they tended to be foreign terrorist fighters, those who want to go overseas to commit mayhem on behalf of these terrorist groups. More recently was seen individuals inside the United States who want to conduct terrorist attacks here at home and have been directed, encouraged to do so by isil in these terrorist groups on social media. Linked to the fact it is social media who is allencompassing and definite change in the demographic of those who we are arresting. It is younger. We are seeing now of these arrests around 80 are 30 years old or younger, and of those about 40 are 21 years old or younger. Thats a serious problem that we are confronting. Recently we just had our first public juvenile case. These terrorists are targeting our children and their doing so when they play. Way they play these days not in the playground down the street and thats not what theyre forming relationships. Its online and through social media. Thats why youre hearing such a concerted effort from us to increase our effort both in government but in the private sector to make sure that the places where our Children Play are safe and theyre not going to these terrorist who are trying to radicalized them. Can you talk to the extent you can abou but how these casee being built . How is Law Enforcement warning about these people . Is it through surveillance, human ships . How are we finding these kids . The answer is yes, it is a combination thereof. Theres been great work done both went on enforcement here in the United States, by elements of the Intelligence Community overseas, and with our foreign partners. This is a problem that is not just america. And, in fact, per capita the problem is smaller than many of our closest western partners or so while some estimates show around 250 individuals from the United States have either attempted to travel to the serious, iraq region, have traveled or have traveled every turn. If you compare that to western europe, at this point it is over 4000 individuals. Worldwide we are talking about 25,000 individuals who have attempted to go over, and the number continues to grow. Thats not counting the numbers of individuals who are inspired by these types of techniques. That means but can be incredibly hard trying to find individuals who are in the basement at home and the parents dont know but when theyve gone social media they formed a new friend and the friend is a terrorist overseas whose very sophisticated at slowly walking them through the process of radicalization with the goal to give him to join the Foreign Terrorist Group or commit an attack at home. That means we need to get better at identifying where those Communications Come from but also when we have Legal Process being able to serve it on the companies are too identified. It means that Companies Need to get better at making their platform safe for children and to keep terrorists off of them. And it also means we need to get our message out to the community, to parents, to the friends of those children, to communicate that they just this is not just whether you are seeing it outside. You need to figure out who they are closing to doing when youre online. Maybe you could talk about what the cia is doing to connect these plots to act as a broad. We want to begin by thank you for moderating the panel. Biathlon 20 we have a drowsy effects and of all the lawyers, too. And also to the Aspen Institute for hosting this conference. This is my first chance to come to one of these additionally amazing, the line as well that weve already seen as well as the lineup that we have coming. So just to step back in terms of how we work closely together with john and his team as well as the fbi. The way the agency is helping to confront the threat posed by isil is one of the important ways is through the foreign intelligence collection. Thats one of our primary missions. All the things we do have that link to them. We, unlike the prosecutors or the fbi who worry about the federal rules of evidence, what were trying to get intelligence, foreign intelligence, we dont have to worry about those rules and we dont have them in mind. In fact, as they have to be concerned about hearsay, hearsay for us is our friend. We love you say. We love to get information from human sources as one of the main ways that we get intelligence. So we encourage people to talk to us. Our operational folks have great tradecraft at a very good at getting people to talk to them. May be similar to the reporters in the room. We also dont have to worry about things like chain of custody rules. We couldnt imagine how hard to be to apply kind of a rule set to the situation where you have documents that dropped under a park bench. So our rules are more flexible because we are working with human sources, what were doing this less intrusive. So we are working closely with the rest of the u. S. Government to combat the threat posed by isil, and thanks in part to some reforms post9 11 we are able to share intelligence with the fbi quite freely as long as we have a foreign intelligence purpose. If you have, for example, terrorist incident in the United States and theres understandable desire to find out right away thats connected to foreign terrorist, we can help the fbi find that out in terms of what we have any information already that might link that incident to an overseas group of actors and we can go out and talk to the people who went overseas to get more information and to try to help the fbi. The cia by a large is not on the ground operating in isil controlled areas. How could is the agencies into coverage of isil right no . Definitely a challenge. Because of the difficulty of where isil is. As we were talking about, isil uses a lot of social media. So we try to take advantage of that to try to do more about them and to share that information with our fellow u. S. Government partners. When it comes to social media, foreign intelligence collection, you can look at everything, right . What happens if you bump up against a u. S. Person . We have a very strict regimen of rules, and it depends on how the information was collected but all of our information either collected in the u. S. Or concerning u. S. Persons and subject to attorney general guidelines under executive order 12333 and johns office work stop approved those guidelines. My team, i think would be surprising to some type over 150 lawyers in my office who are incredibly dedicated and his in one big area where the there ve, very careful to make sure we are applying those rules appropriately. John, can you walk us through the process of recruitment were isis is committed with the young person in the United States . It starts out over twitter but then it moves on from there. At some point to encrypted a place where you cant follow it or talk about that. What we are seeing is a trend that were seeing is what they terrorist group will seek to put their message out on platforms that they know are accessed by the largest population possible, hundreds of thousands of people are accessing this website. Theyve been bombarded with thousands and thousands of messages every day with propaganda. The messages line across the border we are all familiar with the shocking images and despicable what to show of public executions. But what they are also doing is they are bombarding that same audience with targeted, microtargeting messages at the same way that advertisers to do. What theyll do is they wish you a handsome young isil after in one video literally handing out candy to children. And in the corner will be the grand isil, the same weight may be for some other Television Show or brand. In another videotape was shown the armed terrorist with a gun in one hand and the other in he is holding a kitten. And other messages in addition showing handing out candy to children to show images of bucolic life here in the caliphate. So what they will look to see is whether not they can with this largescale bombardment of images, and they get someone on the hook and then start to dangle them in. If they get some who they think is interested, what they will do is they will move off that public forum and then again often using u. S. Built and provided technology, has many positive purposes, but the things oliver chilled are using to talk to each other now, they would use those chats, services that are encrypted to get into onetoone conversations with these individuals, they may be very young, like i said, 80 30 and under. 40 21 and under. And raising juveniles and those are just the individuals who are arrested inside the United States. All of our partners are seeing kids put in by this approach. What they will then do as they will direct communicate in some instances with those individuals, encourage them along the jihadi path etiquette and inspired to commit terrorist acts to give people in the United States, to kill soldiers, to kill police officers, to Kill Community leaders. What they will also do, and this is a blended threat, used to be a stark divide between those inspired by and those our operatives with the terrorist groups, and that we would be some hybrid where they get the general direction to commit an attack by specific date. When they have these one on one conversations through social media with a terrorist overseas theyve never met in person, they will get the guidance on how to combat appetite. A core problem we are starting to face is that the agencies will come to my office and we will be able to meet the predicate to get a court order, probable cause, that is a terrorist. We will get the court order or can get a court order from the judge but when you go to serve on the company, the company is technically incapable of processing the order. That means Law Enforcement knows of a terrorist is, they know their target person inside the United States, may be a kid but they cant see what they are saying. So thats a developing, growing problem. How often does that happen these days, weekly . I say its growing in frequency and because the Business Model o of the terraces changed and theyre doing the broadscale dissemination, using the Service Ticket into onetoone conversations. So we are seeing it occur more and more frequently. After a conversation with Tech Companies about how to solve these problems . Let me ask are you talking to twitter about trying to get a handle on the messages that are coming out from isil on tour and other social media front . I wont talk about social media writ large but when you think about it there are many different Business Models in social media and different services. We are engaging and need to both at the Justice Department but also fbi and others to engage in talks constructively with these companies. The Business Models keep changing. Theres great expertise on how to technically work, reside in a private hands. And in some of these models one may be we are a business and we are building a platform for people to talk and share ideas into business. Their Business Model is not we want to have that model used by terrorists to kill people inside the United States. Thats not the point of the Business Model. When we talk to these companies theres increasing awareness that same platform to use for good is being used to talk to people on the platform. It could just make sure your platform is safe. I would hope in addition to being good patriotic duty, and we are seeing that shared, net of interest. Whawhat you dont see is incread investments in the research, both Human Resources are identified a terrorist on your site youre targeting children or those who are targeted for sexual exportation, and the use of algorithms and other technical tools. What we need to start encouraging is right now they develop the servers, the rush to go to skilled and then they think about the problem of terrorists exploiting it. We will get better i hope together is thinking about it before you scale up. This is going to be a problem for my business. Bottom line, james comey said last night he thinks theres a potential we could see a lot more of these attacks. How likely is about . The fbi has been pretty good so far about forging them, right . The pace in frequency thwarting. Were well up over 50 cases. Even in the last six months weve had 12, around 12 additional arrests, and the fbi is doing everything it can, working with the Intel Community and private community to get in front of these attacks. But bottom line, this tactic of targeting the youth, targeting those who are mentally unstable, targeting them to commit attacks here at home which just requires you to have a knife or gun, is incredibly difficult to thwart. Weve seen attacks in canada, australia, the uk, the terrible attacks the cost 30 british lives in tunisia. We saw the attacks on Charlie Hebdo in french. And what about the way to crack this terrorist threat day in day out, i think all of those are on edge in frequency and impact like that to to the we just had a tragic attack, in tennessee, and my condolences go out to the families of those who lost their loved ones. Addon that when can you say whether he was using an encrypted phone to commit a . Are not going to talk about that case specifically, but i will say of the variety of cases that were seeing now, currently we are seeing that. Caroline, what is the cia saying about whether isil think this is a useful strategy and it will continue . Because the analysis ive seen, its a stalemate right now. Isil is not leaving their caliphate anytime soon under the current u. S. Strategy. Are we facing this threat for years to come . I think were doing everything we can to mitigate against the threat and to get the information we can get entrance of threat information to the appropriate entities within the Us Government like the fbi. I cant myself as a lawyer predict how the struggle is going to end up but we are doing everything we can. Stepping back from the homegrown threat. Intelligence committee has been saying for years that alqaeda is not capable of launching a nine 9 11 style attack any longer its been decimated in pakistan. But how do we know the isil were some of the offshoot, we dont have a terrific intelligence, however so sure that theres a major attack on the homeland is not likely right now . I would have to for my perspective have to defer to the analysts on the. What i do know is that we arent sufficiently concerned about alqaeda, alqaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and isil to view ourselves as being threatened by tim in a severe sense to National Security and is will we are in Armed Conflict with him under the aumf which is the 2001 authorization for use of military force. I would say that look, my division was formed, National Security division was formed after september 11. We are the first read in 2006 and the core reason for christmas to break down a wall that had existed between Law Enforcement on the one hand and Intelligence Community on the other. To be dedicated to ensuring that as lawyers we had our prosecutors, our intel lawyers, our regulatory lawyers, policy dollars sitting under one roof focus on National Security threats and being driven by what the intelligence picture shows the threat is. So in terms of what they are telling us that threat is, it remains, we remain concerned about alqaeda conducting a largescale attack. We remain very concerned about safe havens and doing everything we can as a government through the authorities, but its covert action, military action, Law Enforcement or other sanctions to prevent safe havens in yemen or syria and iraq or libya for preventing this terrorist groups from having the time and space to plot and plan largescale spectacular attacks. At the same time in terms of a current threat at home weve seen this changing Business Model where instead of large scale spectacular attacks, you dont need it plot and plan overseas because they are encouraging people to do the attacks at home. They are occurring simultaneously. Do you agree with jim komi what you described has eclipsed alqaeda as a top threat to the homeland . First, we defer to the fbi and Intelligence Community first. We are driven by their intel as to what the threat is. Theres a clear and present danger here because you are seeing in these cases in one instance of someone with a knife trying to board a bus to commit an attack was shot before he boards the bus. So we are seeing instances here now where the attacks have occurred. Occurred in chattanooga, almost occurred but stopped at the last and by Law Enforcement. We remain concerned, vigilant and working hard with our military, Law Enforcement and intel partners to try to prevent a largescale spectacular attack as well. Both of you have been involved in meetings where your sign off on the legality of very sensitive characters and operations, write . Caroline, you are a member of the Lawyers Group. Of defense secretary gates have criticized what they called micromanagement of these kinds of operations from the white house. Can you shed some light on how this process works and how these decisions go through the process of . Sure. The interagency Lawyers Group is something that has been in existence for many years. I started going to meetings in the clinton administration. Im sure i have predated that as well and ive been going to meetings for over 20 years, and whichever agencies are relevant to what the topic at hand, the nsa Legal Adviser will pull the general counsels and most senior members other legal teams together to talk about that particular issue. Spent four years dont have the nsc and i believe in the value of that process. I think in the same way that the nsc process is an effective way of getting all of the agencies were relevant together and to share their views and to come to as often as possible, to understand. Thats usually local of the Lawyers Group process it because each agency has its own perspective on what they think is legal, what they can comply with international law. The goal is of everybody the goal is of everybody trying to come to a common understanding that i think that helps the agency that those lawyers are advising to make sure theyre all on the same page and graduate degrees. This Administration Takes very precisely whether our actions are consistent with domestic and international law, and thats something were constantly evaluating. You as if it can stop proposed covert action in its tracks. Its incredibly powerful. Yes. Its true that i am the Legal Adviser to the agency, so if the we covert action that i thought was on global was unlawful i would make my views known. As an outsider how have you observed that the cia we ask to be loitering your office conducts . Forcing to live under these rules spirit that was one thing i was pleasantly surprised by because i had explained with the agency for years, died at jesse five and nsc and a new the lawyers were a terrific group of people. I didnt know how the operational components, for example, would feel about their lawyers. And i have almost a third of my livers are embedded with the operators. I think that really helps to foster a strong relationship from the ground up. When something is being planned for lawyers is right there, they understand what the goals are. If the original proposal is something not consistent with the law or regulations, that lawyer condensate wait a minute, i can help you. If you do this by the way, then that would be lawful. So that a very collaborative relationship. And very much speak the views of dollars. Ive received no complaints during my whole time about the quality of the legal advice they are getting quite concerned that if you like one of those lawyers would just be quiet and i could do everything i needed you to keep the country safe. They understand how important is for us to follow the rule of law because of the need for legitimacy but when you for the american people. Lets move to surveillance. One of the snow and revelations was section 702, which gathers ashman snowden as part of that there is inadvertent or external questions about u. S. Personal information to the president appoint a task force concluded Deputy Director mike morrell to look at all the surveillance. Some of the recommendations were it is u. S. Person information that was obtained without warrants, there should be new, tougher rules. You shouldnt be able to use it against a person in a legal proceeding. Shouldnt give the search u. S. Persons may be considered you should purchase an unless it has foreign intelligence value. Those recommendations were basically tossed out. Can you explain why . Well, that was a view of that group we have a competing view from the president delivers an Oversight Board which was established quite some time ago but got fully staffed up and running more recently in which issued an independent executive arm of the branch and found 72 collection is lawful, consistent with the fourth minute. Then you about this infidel collection issue. The fisa court is completely unaware of it. John can speak more to the specifics of it but there are rules about what you can do but information that is incidentally collective has been collected lawfully. Were talking about policy concerned, the ability to search for information. Lawfully but not with out a probable war, write a . 702 has a different legal content. Thats a misconception. Some which were in your question. The idea that football guy [laughter]. Others are looking to adopt it, but right now the only country with three branches of government involved in what is traditionally very much a prerogative of the executive from a collection of intelligence and the National Security purposes. What this regime was at its core was the oversight within the executive ring is by the inspector general, general counsel to the Intelligence Community and the relevant agencies. There is than applications that have to take place between the same judges that appeared before as a prosecutor in their day job working at the same judges and are publicly known to be sitting on the foreign Intelligence Surveillance course to review the legality of Certain Applications in those applications are pursuant to statute overs and by the Intelligence Community mlr templates require disclosure of information to the Intelligence Committee said they can regularly review what the applications are and whether they are accurately replied. What you saw with section 702 that communications have changed and many communications now that our nonus persons overseas, the same type the u. S. Has been collecting for years will hit u. S. Providers. When you do the collection can be served the order, but the reason is to target the nonus person located overseas. When they have the debate, one of the core reasons why they adopted the program was to prevent another 9 11, prevent terrorist attacks and what the operators, one person in come Intelligence Community are most concerned about when they know there is a terrorist overseas who is in direct communication with the u. S. Person here in the United States. The privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board is this issue is that its very important and therefore for the Law Enforcement are in telecommuting to search and find information targeted overseas in the nonus verse in overseas when they find out the u. S. Are saying they want to provide the information and theres a variety of other restrictions including restrictions on use but the program is litigated in an adversarial manner and our court system including the Mohammed Mohammed case, the individual convicted by a series of his peers by a 10 day and two bomb makers history Lighting Ceremony in portland and there was noticed that there was private information in the case in the court has upheld the legality of the 702 program. We look forward to the ongoing policy discussion, but it is not something occurring in secret. The actual collection may be, but the structures in place have been largely declassified. One more in counterterrorism and then we will move to cyber. Ive got to ask about the decadeold cia program. I want to ask a forward moving question because john brennan in his News Conference seemed to leave the door open for his future president to reinstitute eits and some republican president ial candidate this very year said they bring back what some people consider to be torture. If either of you see a scenario where you would sign off on the legality of enhanced interrogation techniques. How would you respond to a president saying he wanted to do this. Would you resign your position or go along with it . What would you do . First of all, i dont know if you are aware by senator mccain and senator find time would basically codify the executive order president obama put in place when he first got here in the languages supported by the administration including the Intelligence Community. That would make a loss of a could not. That would be the best way forward. I dont anticipate being in a situation in which i would has to sign off an eit is. John, what is your view on this . The executive order has forces within the executive ranch so it is currently prohibited. Catholicism and i would go to caroline. I was over at fbi and something the fbi chose not to adopt for fbi agents at the time. Lets talk about cyber. John, last year you explain how the Justice Department was reorienting itself to tackle the cyberthreat and that was presony. We have a sony attack. Maybe you can explain how the new system worked in that case. Last year we talked about the fact that we were seen on an unprecedented scale and again going back to the mission of our division, which is to take what the intelligent when asked about the threat and take sure we adopt what we were seen wednesday in come a day outcome of billions of dollars worth of data stored by u. S. Companies. Its not sufficient to watch. Ready to come up with ways to disrupt and change the activity. We have christiane a year from an tell them what we talk about was the need to go on offense, that defense alone is not going to change. Right now often outstrips defense in terms of the ability particularly a sophisticated nationstate that there is. If someone tries to sell you a product in their sales pitches we can take your internet connect to computers and make them save for a breach. We can build a wall that is high enough or deep enough to prevent a determined nationstate adversary from getting into your system. They are selling you the brooklyn bridge. It does not exist. We are in an environment of Risk Mitigation and looking at other ways to address the threat. Part of that is getting smarter and have been whole Risk Mitigation approaches defensively, but part of it also has to be doing what weve done in every other area throughout which is telling the bad guy in adversaries this is not cost free. It may be new but not permanently anonymous. You can get away with this without paying a penalty and we need to get better at increasing penalties. We reorganize at the Justice Department to retrain hundreds of prosecutors and we were structured to focus on nothing but to make sure when it came to the nationstate actors, when it came to terrorist groups and the National Security threat, that we werent leaving the criminal Justice System off the table and we werent repeating mistakes made pre9 11 with terrorists, which was doing line person on one hand and intel on the others. After we retrain prosecutors, the fbi put out by the said thou shalt share on the intel side of the house with a specially trained cadre at the National Security division. Using the new information led to the indictment of the five members of the Peoples Liberation army unit 61398. We never thought one incitement alone would change the problem but it was important to bring the criminal Justice System on the table and among other things than the message this is criminal when you go winners deal from a private company just like a uhaul truck that took the secret spirit we talked about this new approach leader after i went to meet with the fortune 100 general counsels and we talked about the similar issues and we were telling them to Risk Mitigation issue needs to be at the level of your ceo or the way others are as a serious drag. What we found is those inspectors who had been attacked like finance or defense got it and had constructive questions and came to talk about working with asp. Others came up and said yeah, im not an industry or defense. Im an entertainment and i dont see this ever really happening. So i got my voicemail is unanswerable, a flood of calls and emails from the general counsels and could you go back to what you were saying about the National Security threat in what were supposed to do. Kevin put out a report of what hes seen in the than 90 of what he sees now are nationstate could be as persistent threat intrusion into the systems. What you saw opposed tony and we talked about this hypothetically because we havent done it last year and asked them in the criminal just system we need to bring tools in the terrorist arena to this thread and that means being able to do three things. Weve got to get better at figuring out who did it and that means working with the big gun, fbi come Intelligence Community. Second after we figure out who did it, we cant be afraid to say we did it like we do in other areas or we will not deter her. Third there needs to be a consequence and he saw that with sony. Sony was a great partner in that they came in immediately to be a t. I. To work quickly to figure out who did it. When we figure out who did it and that it was north korea you saw the unprecedented step of the fbi. There was in a charge attached to it, but we announced to did it, that it was north korea and then you saw the president issue sanctions against north korea and Officials Say public late somethings ccn somethings you dont say, but there will be consequences. That was important not just back there, but others in the world who think how much can i get away with . You sent me a beautifully. Who set up opm and what are we going to do about it . Post sony, now an executive order in place that allows the use of sanctions for a broader set of actors. Weve also talked about the idea designating certain entities under the Commerce Department regulation who can do Business Inside the United States. We need to continue to look across the full range of legal authorities to see what we can do to increase the cost when we have high confidence of who did a specific intrusion. While im not going to talk about opm, what i will say is i strongly believe in this approach and that we need to continue when we can do were to hold specific consequences and tell the actors here is why we are doing what we do because you did ask why youre seeing there will be a consequence. There will be pain induced as a result. We are talking about the office of personnel management, records and security clearance data was hacked and is described as one of the worst counterintelligence in american history. Incredibly Sensitive Information for people who procured or didnt do intelligence work work in some cases. Can you talk about how devastating a blow this has been . I want to echo what director call me sad in terms of explaining the detailed information that was on one of the recipients of an opm letter after the first breach was announced. It is very a climbing and certainly is not a good thing for anybody who is compromised to have people know your relatives and all those things. It is fair to say even a covert cia officers were not in the database they were impacted. It would be fair to say anybody would be impacted in the u. S. Government. The hackers linked to china worst osmo for this. Why isnt the u. S. Government say not . We need to do everything we can to hold specific act is accountable and find out who did it and build the picture in the Intelligence Committee. We need from my dad used to insert legal authorities to both figure out who did it and look for either evidence or other information we could publicly use through the right authorities to hold specific people accountable. If there is a period of thinking it couldnt be done and we are starting to show it can be done. It is hard and we are new at applying this approach. It can be done in a bowl be done and we need to work to do it in that region others. On the cyberquestion in general you talked about things you wont see. Are there things the u. S. Government is doing to distract cyberespionage against other cyberattacks short of sanctions are things we are not, covert actions or other things . There will be things you see things that you dont see, but there will be consequences so thats an answer to your question. Are we seeing any diminution in the level of attacks . I think you are seeing changes as a result of these efforts. I would say we as a country moved incredibly quickly from 20, 25 years ago restoring 99 above the value to 99 of locally stored in Digital Space and we did so using the medium designed for free communication and not for security. I was billions and trillions of dollars in investment to make the massive shift. We are playing a game of catchup and we are behind in the private protection of governments nervous as and store it digitally as vulnerable to criminal spies and eventually will be more and more vulnerable to terrorist to a party stated their intention to develop the capability and are trying to develop the capability and we do our best to slow the development down. I am not sanguine about where we are now and among other things that call again on congress to pass additional legislation to allow better information sharing within the private sector and with government and we in government and the private sector and working with that hell need to do more faster to prevent catastrophic attacks to occur. Like john was describing the changes within the National Security division, you may be aware we are engaged right now im the most historic reorganization and modernization of the agency since 1947 when it was first created by moving along at a very rapid pace and resulted from an internal study and working group that came up with a variety of recommendations. One of the most significant was to figure out how the agency can better deal with rapid technological innovation so we set up a Digital Direct or at directorate of digital information. One for analysis, one for support, one for operations and one for science and technology and this will be a single new directorate to integrate cyberdefense, cio as well as open source manner as well as efforts on the operational side to take advantage of opportunities in the cyberarena and we hope very much this will have significant benefits by integrating all those people together and it is quite a big effort within the agency. Each of the other director as i mentioned has their own Careers Service which is meticulously brought to a certain incredibly High Standard and the idea is to have the same Careers Service. The people are incredibly talented but theres not a Career Service in the innovation change. The idea is to create that. I would like to throw it open to audience questions now. Sarah, right here. Dylan from duke law school. As mr. Krass said we are in Armed Conflict with some of the terrorist groups here would not make it appropriate to the law for targeting regime to go after is the sum of the website and secondly, if that is impossible, what about materials for statute go after some of the platforms. And thirdly, what about civil liability along the lines of their case . Ill start a little bit and turn it over to caroline. We need to look at the full range of tools and trying to disrupt the way terrorists are currently trying to communicate with individuals inside the United States. It is very fact specific over which tool would he pass. Right now, i can there are current models were the one causing us the most concern is using these platforms that are provided by u. S. Namely providers that are used by the englishspeaking children as the place they think is safe. So when it comes to the use of those platforms, ever since the violation of the terms of service i can think of is the particular companies, they are targeting the kids and encourage them to take terrorist attacks. What you see there is the company can take action and in other systems the best. What they do now and i think it has been a more positive conversation as people become very aware of the threat. They are not just hearing it inside the United States. They hear it from australia, canada, united kingdom, france, spain, other places where they do business and customers use their services that you need to do more to help make these platforms save him that is causing resources and then other symptoms last to prevent these messages from reaching vulnerable populations. We need to improve in that area. With Material Support, lets take the far end of the example. There is somebody holding a camera as the decision was made to slowly behead an individual by a terrorist and kill him for propaganda purposes. I will avoid in general that is someone who is providing Material Support under this statute. If we can identify that type of individual providing support to the designated terrorist group, we can use criminal authorities to identify and locate them. What we dont do is we wouldnt target under the First Amendment and we have to look at the facts and circumstances. There is conduct in the middle that my plan itself itself to a criminal prosecution of intentionally aiding the terrorist group. The third area talked about with civil liability starting to see under existing causes of action that there may be several suit depending on the Business Model, what they are promising customers send this possibility on behalf of the company if terrorists are exploiting their services. You just heard senator whitehouse call for more conversation and disregard. At the end of the day i hope we can all agree is governments, citizens and Companies Providing services that the status quo was unacceptable. Terrorist groups are taking advantage of it and we need to Work Together to make sure they dont cost innocent lives. If we cant do that under existing authorities is more of a discussion about what Additional Authority to need. Are they as a member of the Lawyers Group to go to the first part of your question. It is the right paradigm. What is tricky as the plane principles in this relatively new area and what is not of war is a hard question to him or in the cyberbomb. One thing it reminds us that mr. Member how you would feel if this were applied to you and be careful we are taking that into consideration. Stir here in the glasses. Hi, joe smitty from santa clara county, california. The panelists referenced the opm pack in the comment was made that we have to be mindful of the fact that digitalize can be stolen by the phrase criminals terrorists. Should we be concerned about the nsa both telephone records that have been acquired over the years . Telephone records that indicate pseudowe have all been talking and for what. It time. If that information at risk . That is 310 million of us as opposed to 21, 22 million federal employees and applicants. Their unclassified systems where there is internet connected systems designed to be connected and those are incredibly they are vulnerable and determined adversary can get into the system. Wouldnt say the same thing about topsecret systems that are enclaves to be had from the internet. The Business Record that the atmosphere was collecting under the Metadata Program which were repositories that can only be queried when you have reasonable articulable sunder the freedom not moving away from a different system with the provider. Business records are cap to nick says that the companies under that particular machine. Twoyear concern to the extent they are digitally stored by whoever you choose as your provider whether its your telephone service, if those are in a nonclassified internet system regardless of whether the program existed or not, they can be targeted by an adversary and it certainly an area where we definitely encourage them to be concerned about cybersecurity and think about how their mitigating the risk. That is true of your telephone Business Records but certainly also true what you might consider more sensitive records are equally sensitive like healthinsurance records. Or other business transactions when you do your credit card purchases or your financial records. Many of those are held in unclassified internet protected systems and that is where we play the game of catchup. Were i to think theres been a sea change in terms of awareness and resources by his years, boards, direct heirs, general counsels than the government. That is relatively recent but we are still in catchup mode. Thank you. Josh rogan, bloomberg news. You have noted in the past theres been an uptick of the rest of the lone wolf terrorist people that previously the u. S. Government had been keeping a surveillance that given the rising threat and changing trends are talking about are now picked up off of the virtual battlefield. If you pick through those indictments and legal documents, you will see instances of where the suspects are defended talk to people they believe to be related to terrorist groups with the suggestion we have the u. S. Lockers and halogens community of people in these arenas in chat rooms posing as terrorists and the evidence is used in these cases. What are the legal implications of that. You wonder if we are creating terrorists by drawing into conversations and what line does it become entrapment, stuff like that. Use of undercover operations by the fbi and Law Enforcement has been long established in the u. S. With the technique i use when i was doing her products cases are onsite cases in other cases are prosecuted before switching to the National Security field. It is a vitally important tool in preventing this particular threat and that is because you identify the nature of the threat. If we cant get people into the forum where they are having the discussion and be sure people from getting into conversations because they are not sure if they reach the terrorists they want to reach or of Law Enforcement agent, that is the way weve been able to disrupt many of these clouds. Its critical to our whole change in approach post9 11 of success is not successfully prosecuting a case after people have been killed. That is important. Success is preventing the terror attacks from occurring and under u. S. Law we dont prosecute people for talking the talk. We prosecute people for walking the walk. You have to put them to the test to see whether they will take that step and furtherance of the criminal act that they want to commit. I think you will see that tactic. In meeting with my counterparts and justice ministers from across the world at the United Nations last year and this year we will have the anniversary of the passage of the United Nations revolution 2178 which people were agreed on nothing else. Everybody agreed on the importance of the foreign terrorist fighters thrive. One of the best practices discussed with counterparts in something called the global terrorist reform is how they can put on their books undercover operations. It is important and her cover operations are there to figure out who the real who actually kill people or join the Foreign Terrorist Group versus those who are talking and thinking. It is a sign of the carefulness with which fbi has supplied the important tool that in the hundreds and hundreds of terrorism cases that we have prosecuted, not once has the defendant been able to successfully employed the entrapment defense, which is a defense under u. S. Law. I think well have to wrap it up there. Thank you both very much in thank you for listening. [applause] [inaudible conversations]. Get are complete schedule at cspan. Org. The iowa state fair begins today in des moines, iowa, and will hear from several president ial candidates at the des moines registers candidate soapbox. Its a longstanding tradition what each president ial hopeful gets 20 minutes on stage. Coming up at 2 p. M. Eastern democratic candidate jim webb followed by your phone calls, tweets and facebook comments. Later today on cspan2 a discussion on the Iran Nuclear Agreement and what it means for the international community. We will hear from National Security advisers to the president and Vice President , also a state Department Official who coordinates sanctions policy. Thats live from the policy. Thats life, center for strategic and International Studies at 2 p. M. Eastern on cspan2. With us and in its august break we will feature booktv programming weeknights in prime time on cspan2. Booktv izzard weekend on cspan2 and with the senate in recess this august of tv is in prime time each weeknight. Tonight we focus on the white house. This sunday night on q a, institute for policy studies fell and antiwar activist Phyllis Bennis on u. S. Foreign policy since 9 11. The recent negotiations with iran and the war on terrorism. Who is isis . What are the origins . Why be so violent . All those questions are addressed in the book. I think whats more important in some ways because its something we can do something about is what is the u. S. Policy regarding isis . Why isnt it working . Can we go to war against terrorism . I would just doing the war wrong or is it wrong to say they should be a war against terrorism at all . Those are the questions that consumers are the most important and will be the most useful. Sunday night at eight eastern and pacific on cspan q a. Earlier this summer the Senate Aging Committee held a hearing on telemarketing fraud targeting senior citizens. Witnesses at the hearing concluded a phone scam victim, a regulator with the federal trade commission and a Computer Scientist who talks about the Technology Used by telemarketing scammers. Susan collins chairs the hearing. Good afternoon. When Congress Passed legislation creating a national donotcall registry in 2003, without we put an end to the plague of unwelcome telemarketers who were interrupting americans mourning, noon and night. But now nearly 12 years later, phones are once again ringing off the hook. In the searing we will look at why americans who have signed up for the donotcall registry are still getting unwanted phone calls, and what can be done to stop it. We will see that a large part of the problem traces to the fact that the Regulatory Framework behind the do not call list has been rendered ineffective by advances in technology your it used to be that phone calls were routed through equipment that was costly and complicated to operate. Highvolume calling was difficult and expensive, especially for international calls. That old equipment could not be used easily to disguise or spoof caller id. But now phone calls can be routed from anywhere in the world at practically no cost. This can be done by using socalled voice over internet protocol technology, or voip. And the Computer Programs needed to generate these calls are remarkably inexpensive and easy to use. Now reputable telemarketers scrub their calling lists against a database to make sure that they dont die of numbers belonging to consumers who have signed up for the do not call list. If you were on that list, theres a good chance that the telemarketer is calling you is not legitimate. Instead, it will be a scam artist using a Computer Program to generate robocalls. These robocalls typically originate offshore often from call centers in india. But you would not know that fact from looking at your caller id. Because the scammers spoof the caller id to add credibility and hide their true location here as we learned in our recent hearing on the irs scam, fraudsters and even spoof the numbers to make victims believe that they are calling from the irs, or local Law Enforcement. When these unsuspecting victims see the Internal Revenue service or their local Police Department pop up on their caller id screen, they are worried, scared, and often easily hustled into doing whatever the scammers demand. Simply put, spoofing is very easy, as i will now demonstrate. My screen is reading the Internal Revenue service, but lets see. Hello . This is Susan Collins. May i ask who is calling . No, hello, chairman collins, i am from your staff. Sand, my phone says that you are calling from the irs headquarters number, which is 202 6225000. Are you calling from the irs . No, senator, im actually over here. [laughter] there you have it. Thank you, sam. And here is what the number would look like on a standard landline phone where you have the screen where your caller id shows up. Now, the irs of course is part of the department of treasury. My staff was able to spoof that number using a free iphone app rocket in this hearing room. And looking at my phone i would have no way of knowing that it was not really the irs or the department of treasury calling me. Obviously these fraudsters have no intention of following u. S. Laws. In fact they may use the do not call list as a source of working numbers in their hunt for new victims here if we are going to win the fight against scammers targeting our seniors, we need to get ahead of the technology that they use to generate robocalls, and to spoof caller ids. Lets see who this one is. [laughter] hello, this is Susan Collins spent hello, senator collins. Sam dooley from your staff again. Sam, this is getting old. This time, sam is pretending to be from the department of justice, and he has just demonstrated how easy it is to spoof multiple phone numbers, not just the irs, the department of justice and virtually any other official sounding numbers. And is also demonstrated just how annoying these repeated calls can be to the consumer your soul, sam, im turning off my ring are now. Ringer this is a serious problem. It would be one thing if the real number were showing up on the hard lines id screen your then college might have some chance of protecting themselves by simply not mentioning the phones as weve advised in many of our hearings. But when you see the irs or your local Police Departments number, or the fbis number showing up on your screen, you are going to answer that call. I wish that senator mccaskill were here right now. She will be coming im. [laughter] so you managed to miss my very exciting opening statement, which had to spoof calls turning it. All, darn. But you were here for the praise part of the hearing. And i do want to salute you for the work that youve done on the Commerce Committee on this issue and for the legislation that youve drafted which im very pleased to join you in cosponsoring. So before we turn to our witnesses whose testimony on very much looking forward to, i now would like to call on our Ranking Member to deliver her statement speed at first, my most sincere apologies. This place is, all my colleagues will attest to the fact that all best plans it blown up by crises of schedule. So i apologize for being a few minutes late late and apologizer missing your opening statement. Thank you so much, chairman collins, for holding this hearing. This is a topic i am very much concerned about, and, frankly, i think anybody who come and another witnesses here, Missouri Attorney Generals Office can speak to this, if theres one topic that comes up frequently with missourians, what im talking to them it really is cant do anything about the robocalls . Im on the do not call list. Why cant you get him to stop . I watched my mother get victimized when she thought she was being called by medicare and those with a Company Called med care. That was robocall in her and lying to her about whether or not they talk to her doctor. In our 2013 subcommittee hearing in the Commerce Committee we heard about the inability of enforcement agencies to keep up with this came up whackamole. That phone scams have become, and providers please help them by offering technologies that will block unwanted and fraudulent calls. Ive been tough on the phone companies not because theyre causing the problem but rather because they are in the best position to do something about it. Some innovators have made Great Strides in developing Call Blocking technologies. However, to my frustration industry representatives have continued to insist that the law does not allow them to do this. That doesnt work. I wasnt the only one seeking clarity. Missouri attorney general, democrats along with indianas Republican Attorney general spearheaded a letter to the fcc, and 37 other attorney generals, attorney general signed on. They wanted a formal opinion that clarified whether what we were hearing from industry was true, that their hands were tied about their ability to provide Call Blocking Technology Based on consumer choice. I am pleased today that we are joined by missouris Deputy Attorney general, former judge, Joe Dandurand, to explain why giving consumers more power and choice in which calls they received such an important concern for Law Enforcement nationwide. Im also pleased the fcc commissioner wheeler hazard concerns coming from capitol hill and across the country and resort announced the proposal to be considered at the Commission Later this month that would allow telecommunication providers to offer Consumers Technology tools to combat unwanted calls. This proposal will be voted on next week at the fcc and im strongly encouraging the fcc to adopt chairman wheelers proposal. I am grateful that the fcc has used its existing authority modernize its rule. However, i also recognize in some cases statutory changes must be made to keep up with rapidly evolving technology. To that end this week i introduced and im very pleased to have cosponsorship with the chairman of this committee, chairman collins, we introduced together the robocall and calls the enforcement improvement act. This bill would give the fcc more enforcement of for allowing it go after nonlicensed robocall violators at increasing penalties on them. One of the other concerns weve heard from our Law Enforcement agency is there anybody take it ask spammers to spoof calls from overseas. Is the would love to see to enforce our laws against overseas callers who directed activity to those living in the United States. Additionally, the bill would grant the fcc explicit authority to regulate third party spoofing service. We have to stay on top of this because spammers, movers and robocall is what continue to use whatever tools are available to them to defraud American Consumers and americas seniors. We must give them the flexibility to fight these fraudsters. The cowboys our own increasing your analysts five years of sec reports monthly complaints about Illegal Robocalls have doubled. In missouri as we will hear from attorney general Joe Dandurand, its not even close to his office gets 50 times the number of complaints for those calls than it did for the next highest category of complaints. We can do this. Together we can do this do i look forward to hearing the testimonies from this bill and exploring more ways to help consumers fight these unwanted calls. Thank you and i look forward to all of your testimony. Thank you very much for your statement. I would note we have been joined by senator heller, senator casey, and senator kaine. Ananova others of our colleagues will be joining us. Their schedules permit. We now turn to our panel of witnesses. First well hear from linda blase, a lighting designer and photographer from dallas, texas. She will tell us about the constant barrage of unwanted telemarketing calls she has received despite registering with the do not call list. Second we will hear from professor Henning Schulzrinne from Columbia University in new york. The professor will explain the technology and described the work that he is doing with the industrystandard setting grew. Third well hear from ms. Lois greisman, who is the associate director of the division of marketing practices in the bureau of Consumer Protection at the federal trade commission. Finally, we will hear from Joe Dandurand who is the Deputy Attorney general in missouri. And i want to thank all of you for joining us, and we will start with you, ms. Blase spent chairman collins, Ranking Member mccaskill, and members of the committee, thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak for thousands of american citizens who constantly receive unwanted telephone solicitations. As a Small Business owner working out of my home, my phone number has also found its way to telemarketers who target business. I know there are more Critical Issues to address in todays world, but there are few that affect as many of us on a daily basis as a barrage of robocalls constantly interrupt our lives. In addition to scammers posing as the irs and the fbi trying to steal my savings, ive been bombarded by unwanted and irrelevant sales calls. I telemarketers tell me that my credit card processor is not in compliance with government regulations and their Company Needs to come out great immediately, as if i ever had a credit card processor. One tried to sell me an atm. Maybe i could put it in my living room. Several had Important Information about my credit card account, adding that theres no problem right now, but this is my last chance for them to lower my interest rate. If only that were true. Ive been getting these calls four years. And in person and you start with hello, seniors, and then tries to sell me a device that calls for help if i fall. And by the way, someone is already paid to set it up for me, about a dozen times. Is a just a few examples of the calls we are all getting every day. We do not call this was established, i immediately registered my phone number. But it seemed tactics in became clear to make a difference to these people. All they do is change the number or spoof one to either identities and if a prosecution. And thats assuming anyone was even willing to invest the time and Energy Required to do so. And with the proliferation of robocalls they got even worse. If you actually speak to a human being and ask where the company got her phone number, if they dont end up immediately they will tell you they have no idea. They just get on the line after the computer has dialed your number and you answer the phone. Sense of tollfree numbers apparently are not public record, telemarketers can hide their identity that way. I am reminded of the board of mantra on star trek, resistance is futile. There are too many ways these unethical people can debate our homes incessantly and with impunity day in and day out. If you answer these calls or press one to speak to a sales rep or press two to be taken off their list, youre just making matters worse. You have effectively told the computer that it has reached a working number. It also know that you answer calls from numbers you dont recognize. So not only will it continue to call you, your number may go on the list of targeted numbers which can be sold and resold many times, for two of telemarketers roble college and scammers. So you have very few options. You can do a quick pickup at home hanging up without saying a word or you cannot answer giving to call a chance to go to voicemail for you to spend the time to retrieve and delete the number. You can report the calls to the fcc using a detailed and timeconsuming online form which ive done several times we can go to a consumer driven website that clicks complaints from others who are also carrying their hair out over these calls. Is all an exercise in futility. So in search of a solution to the problem i agreed to pursue state and the Consumers Union campaign against unwanted robocalls. I found while call blockers can be useful straight out of the box, their effectiveness is limited, and to be fully functional may require additional and sometimes complicated programming. And my aging brain is looking for more simplicity, not more competitions. It would be so much simpler if the phone companies could just block calls from a telemarketing clients to all the numbers on the do not call list, or to provide free roboCall Blocking tools to the residential and business customers. Or both. As far as im concerned, these calls are unwanted intrusions into my home. And scammers create disproportionally on our elderly citizens. Why should telemarketers be exempt from regulations similar to the common requirements or doortodoor salesperson to skip homes within the solicitors signposted near the door. We need a similar mechanism for these unwanted phone calls. A national donotcall registry was supposed to do this but the Technology Used by the robocallers has made enforcement nearly impossible. Ablated Telephone Company said the ability to do more in this area, and that they should do so. We are certainly paying enough for their services. Its time for all to take a good look at this issue and Work Together to stop or least sharply decrease the number of these unwanted and fraudulent calls. Thank you for your time. Thank you very much for your testimony. When we get to questions, im going to ask you about the robocall log that you cant for a month. I think its very illuminating the dozens of calls that you received and the variety of them. Professor, we look forward to a finance spent thank you. Chairman collins, Ranking Member mccaskill and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. My name is Henning Schulzrinne and i am to live a professor of Computer Science at elliptical in giving at Columbia University new york. I was the chief technologist at the sec from 201214 and truly serve as a Technology Advisor to the fcc. I am pleased to join you to discuss technological issues and potential solutions surrounding what we call spoofing. The views expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of the fcc. Illegal and more general unwanted robocalls come in many flavors but we heard a few of those described in great detail already. All our unknowing, some are harassing, threatening or deceptive. Beyond the wellknown irs and techsupport scams, Similar Technology also facilitates swatting, that is false 911 calls claiming a crime in progress, or an out of service attacks that interfere with the operation of nursing homes, hospitals and other institutions. All of these as they seem leverage the same three enables. Cheap and Anonymous International phone calls at you mentioned, easy spoofing by the telephone number, whether it looks like a really number like the irs or Law Enforcement agency or even completely nonexisting numbers are used simply to obfuscate the origin. And fake or misleading call the main information. Fortunately, while new technologies have enabled the scourge of unwanted calls, emerging technologies can also help reduce and i hope eventually eliminate these calls. In my written testimony i describe eight tools that are being developed. They are, however, relying on three key concepts that ive outlined now. First, we need to make call id information trustworthy again. Secondly we need to provide traceable and reliable polling information, and thirdly, we need to let consumers and businesses decide which calls they want to receive and which ones they do not. These techniques, as different as they seem, attack unwanted calls i make it harder and more expensive for fraudulent callers to reach the mark and make it easier for enforcement authorities such as the sec and ftc and the state attorneys general to locate and shut down these operations. Let me start on the first topic. First, to ensure that all the entities authorized to use the telephone numbers can place calls using that number, a working group within the internet engine and task force is finishing up a set of specifications that allow legitimate originators of calls to cryptographically find call setup messages. I am hoping that working group as well. The technology is very similar to what it is currently used to assign websites used by, for example, banks or other financial institutions. These techniques can be in limited as voice like calls which traditional phone networks and those they can predict Legacy Networks even though we may not be able to upgrade those technologies themselves. Theyre able to protect both landline and mobile subscribers from fake caller id information. However i believe that even before we can implement cryptographic validation on a large scale, we can prevent the spoofing of numbers used by the kind of institutions mentioned, by banks, government offices such as the irs and social service agencies. I have called this approach organizations who are likely to be impersonated by fraudsters would provide the numbers to operators, and then to that no legitimate call which is those numbers. Date way operators decanting either remove or translate a bogus caller id information. For example, all such calls with fake caller id is within appear as area code 666