So to be three years old to satellite those people because they had uniforms so every time i have to take them out of my office because the kids were so scared they were shaking. So with that impact that naturally to think about yes but they have the disease it breaks my heart there is so much to do to say yes she is an immigrant but they have a very different view. I am sorry to put you on the spot to rehab your permission to dramatize some of these stories . Some other writers here. If i can be the star. [laughter] but they think they make interesting big debts civic that is fine. Just put my name on it. So i have your permission we have to have your publishers agree or you have to give assure material. Tsa churches in colorado had a of a drama from by a book i never saw it in person. I was with that border Justice Group of the dreamers. Was at the greyhound station that night. As assistant professor of education i was also a documented in the current but immigrant but what struck me was the principal who not only gave bad advice but consequential advice. And i teach teacher candidates one of the Main Missions in life is to redress educators to trade around these issues not own a immigrant minders because what happens is this bad vice is life altering the talk that happens. So a lot of my work is around that so to work with educators . Not really. That is the only story that i heard. Jay z hed been looking it up . He just says it casually. It is hard to understand how a person could do that in charge of teenagers. I dont know how much conscience there is in a pleased in a place like the knicks or tucson many children are undocumented and the schools to a great job with them. There was one episode a few years ago a kid got in trouble so how will hold fairly was deported the next day there was a huge uproar about that but the district pledged after that they would never do that again. There rested them in a cave man then they got the kids out of middle school so that was a major misstep but in general i think they are pretty good but that may be a fruitful avenue to investigate. Thanks for coming in sharing your stories. I think it is important to tell these stories in the way you have done so beautifully so we dont just hear about aleas statistics nor Illegal Migrants but those that personalize this and to empathize says a family issue as an issue of Human Dignity and human rights i hope that motivates us as scholars are activist or faculty administrators to do more to reflect of what we can do to walk away with a longer list to do. Thank you. [applause] [inaudible conversations] sales and signing. Welcome to you all. Im the moderator, my name is pam welcome to you all for cry of the moderator i am a reporter for the Washington Post deny cover immigration and some International Issues and on a very brief personal number very, very first job was at the annapolis evening capital 1974. Now you know,. [laughter] it is uphill ever since. We have very little time only 45 minutes so i will speak quickly i hope everybody else will be brief. I will introduce my to authors starting a my far left, Aviva Chomsky a professor of history and coordinator of latin american studies at Salem State University in massachusetts. Her book undocumented is a provocative look at history and contradiction is that u. S. Immigration policy. And how it has punished the illegal immigrant population. Her previous book was they take care jobs and 20 other myths. Also coauthor of the study on the history of cuba and the castro revolution. We have Alberto Gonzalez former attorney general and white House Counsel under george to be bush. He became the highestranking hispanic to hold federal office that was marked by some controversy over executive faction with the war and terror but today we will confine our discussion in to immigration. His book is called a conservative and compassionate approach to Immigration Reform. Coauthored with David Strange that offers prescriptions for improving emigration law and policy. After previously serving of the Texas Supreme Court justice from the school of law in national. Welcome to year growth. [applause] to you both for a reader might assume they come from opposite points of view but they would be wrong. Both grappled with the same fundamental conundrums facing society as it tries to deal with a phenomenon of illegal immigration and both make practical suggestions how these can be reconciled or managed both agreed there is excessive hostility and both agree that some form is needed neither advocates radical solutions differ in degree sorrow by to ask both authors to discuss to of the major issues raised in both of their books we will have three minutes after which to open for questions i hope that is agreeable m. Please me brief because the time is very short. One of the major issues is the fact that undocumented immigrants play critical roles in industry for of meatpacking to construction to a fast food in some argue theyre taking it away jobs from americanborn workers and a forced to leave the misstates wages would rise and americans would be attracted to the jobs once again. Both authors disagree but they offered different explanations with how to deal with the undocumented workers have a bike both to explain their approach to the issue of the judge talks about border enforcement while acknowledging many sectors now rely heavily on their own favor of a biking to redress the apparent contradiction and professor Aviva Chomsky says it is crucial to the u. S. Economy but to she portrays them was as victims of the un just system for program in the 60s that criminalize to Illegal Immigrants to make them domicile and exploitable characters are like her to discuss her findings just like the meat packing industry into a giddy to speak for five minutes that would be good. Judge please start. This is a very difficult issue of from my perspective the fact that i am hispanic from a border state i think i come at this from a fairly unique perspective. We are a nation of laws and i believe in the rule of law and in the post 9 11 world reno who is in this country and why but immigration policy will be right for the economy which talk about the possibility with was working in the white house and we believe it was not possible but even if we could we believe it would have been devastating to Certain Industries and the better approach is to find those that are qualified to put them in in the goal status to stay here and work and produce and by working here and being productive will enhance our economy to create additional jobs for american citizens so this is very important for our economy is security to put them in a temporary legal status is the way to go and from there have no problem to walk into a of a Government Office to say a drivers license that i should be entitled to most of those privileges and we can talk does that mean they become american citizens . The one that i think can be dealt with in a respectful way and agreeable to most americans. I am a historian. I will answer by talking about history and i think what we see today is the dual labor market and the United States has always had some sort of a dual labor market we have some workers who are protected by a the law who have a stable and safe Employment Conditions with benefits and job security and the security they will work under safe and healthy conditions. The other sector is the son of regulated and Informal Sector of the economy if its outside this protection of losses and since the founding of the country or before, we had this segmented label marked market for the first 100 years the legal regime was slavery etiquette a Significant Group of people outside of the protection of the law while creating a system for other people working in the country and after slavery was abolished we have been through a number of different types of legal regimes that have kept a secondary support in this sector who did not enjoy the same protections as others. One way this happened was the new deal legislation that explicitly excluded agricultural and Domestic Workers from the protections granted to others the right to a maximum hours or workplace protection and Unemployment Insurance or Workers Compensation those that were excluded and were not protected and guess what . There were primarily people of color so there has been a racial aspect to how that market has functioned in this country but the next step is the program from 1942 through 64 and 67 was phased out that brought mexican workers to work primarily in agriculture as second class workers you did not enjoy the same rates as others. And to complain about your working conditions meant you were fired and deported youre almost the indentured servant beecher right depended on working for this employer. I argue since 1965 the secondary labor market has been maintained primarily through the use of the legal category of undocumented where workers are still deliberately recruited and brought into the United States with a wink and worked as undocumented and the meat packing industry is one that has taken full advantage of this undocumented labor force. But in a particular case that pamela referred to do the kosher meat processors in postal iowa post bill iowa it was recruited from thailand villages in guatemalans favor indigenous who were brought to a the United States and asked to sign papers and put to work through direct recruitment and theyre all undocumented. In the first decade there was a series of workplace raids sarah ivy publicized were large numbers were arrested and deported it happened at the agra processors plant in one of the many cases we see what happens when they are punished by deportation and forced to leave we see a collapse of the economy and industry and devastation for the town where theyre living and working. So that serves a role in our economy it isnt a good or fair system but it is not to further victimizing and punish those working in lowwage jobs. Faq. Why is it for example, in that case we know meatpacking used to be a stable will paying bluecollar job and wages were good it was not fun but it was good. The influx of undocumented for aliterate people if they were sent back if the meatpacking industry would be forced to raise wages to make them more attractive again or is it gone forever . With that processors the company went bankrupt. But look at the transformation in the economy has undergone but not just the meatpacking industry were Good Union Jobs have disappeared but a deliberate fight back against the new deal for Corporate America with labor legislation anyway they can and most industries do this from living abroad. Through the meatpacking industry to blame the workers or to punish the workers with the industrialization which is a structural and global problem we need to the cat a row who are those principal victims. Would you like to Say Something about ee. Verify . One of the problems we have we have unscrupulous employers and what we propose to scenes the employer sanctions. If you want to to stop, then take a c0 them put them in jail. So it is unfair to focus solely on the immigrant. Is mr. The faster tour day provides for themselves and their families. But this time we have laws in place for one important component dealing with the 12 million better and documented the have to deal with the employers that is an important piece of this. Now i will raise the second question before we go to the audience. The issue of what should be done permanently about the vast population of 12 million undocumented People Living in the United States today with deep roots in the community. Both authors agree on a basic point they all should not be deported and some form of pride reform is needed but they proposed Different Solutions such to offer that pragmatic solution that would most likely take the form of legalization so as he puts it are less or more deserving of leniency and relief. Described the proposal in detail and smaller reforms made in a the immigration law. The professor Aviva Chomsky describes it as an arbitrary labyrinth and obstacle with unintended consequences welcoming yen threatening and imprisoning and deporting Illegal Immigrants to wonder they are confused. She does not specifically advocate a policy but officials must examine the deeper structural reasons we like to hear her respond to the proposal for limited legalization. As paramus spoke about that what is possible today . In terms of legislation or policy. My own view is controlling both houses with the notion of citizenship, it just is not doable. On the other hand, we cannot deport them so if we are in this country those who qualify to dont have a criminal record or pay back taxes to show evidence that they can provide for themselves and in their family to put them into status the whole notion of citizenship has been politicized. I am a republican and i will confess that the mini have the notion that these lawbreakers should not support any dont support amnesty. What is that . Is complete forgiveness of a group of individuals for transgression but i propose those to qualify stay here with a more permanent status but that could involve additional fines but what i would not support to allow those individuals to come on lawfully that allows them to become citizens than those who were waiting patiently. Thats not fair it is not right. I am not necessarily opposed to citizenship, but i dont think they should be rewarded and with one final point of vast majority are less concerned about citizenship been simply being able to be in this country and worry about not being deported. We can find a solution this is an issue that teach the touches for policy and security and our economy the very essence of who we are as the people and in order to reach the Common Ground iran the solution everyone has to be at the table and everyone has to compromise never guess what they want and theyre disappointed and frustrated from washington today we cannot accomplish this wide reelect governor leaders . It is disappointing that has not been done. There are many things that i agree with completely stick is that good or bad . [laughter] so what is possible . But if it is not possible is a useful we need to talk about what is possible. So i am proposing what is possible. By work with many undocumented people the truth is that from a philosophical perspective or idealistic perspective that we are a nation of laws. But theyre not all fare if they treat them unfairly rather than sticking to that idea then what we to do is change them. We have done that many times that they did not treat them fairly. There also a nation of rights and one of the questions is to people have equal rights . The idea of creating a new status seems problematic if we are an asia and the rights we should not have rights of other people do not have but the goal if we change laws is to create a system that treats everybody equally. I firmly believe that. A river for the undocumented people i work where a, i would have to save the judges proposal will look very attractive that they are less interested in the idealistic physician everyone should have equal rights to seek if you can live without fear of being deported in people to work so this is why i have to separate the two from the idealistic and philosophical perspectives says the law should treat every by the equally. From the realistic professors says the proposal will fulfill a lot of needs and is realistic. And to have a comprehensive Immigration Reform in 1986 that created a path to legalization and citizenship with a large people that are undocumented. The also created a new enforcement regime with employer sanctions to militarize the border and we a knows the results was. Some people got access to a new legal status and the others skyrocketed. Minis have shown us the reason that they grew so quickly, there are a number of reasons, one of the main reasons was the militarization of the border. Not that they were crossing to come in but fewer people leaving. Once the border became so difficult to cross, those mexicans chose not to leave. That was a system of circular migration turned into a permanent migration for at the same time. But we are running out of time. I will make two quick comments. Has pointed out earlier, the immigration policy already has a number of limited the cavity status there are millions who dont have the right to vote but have the right to be here for a short period of time or a long period of time so it isnt anything new but a legality that is not unheard of. Only 2. 0 is entering the country illegally is not the same as committing a murder it is the of minister if offense so what dont you understand . I do think it is important to europe point out that if someone has committed a murder or arrested for drunk driving while in this country illegally certainly they should be deported if all they have done is cross the border to spend 20 years working and has not broken any criminal laws, perhaps they should be treated differently. I want to leave you with that thought we have exactly 15 minutes open for questions. Please keep them were brief and make them questions rather than speeches. Thank you. Good morning. My question has to do with tomorrow we have a number of people who have entered the country legally and illegally. Into the role of Senior Citizens and we have access to all of these folks if we think about tomorrow and the effect that will have all of those in the Senior Citizen status relative to supporting these folks because it will have an impact on the overall society. I have no idea what those downtown are thinking these days but there are shortterm and longterm cost but to talk about additional dollars, to modify to make it difficult that will have an additional cost. With respect to individuals that we allow to become citizens. That will be offset by day contributions of working and the tax is that they pay about what is important is our politicians have to level with the American People about the costs which could be significant we need to understand and we as a nation come together to decide read is the best way to spend our dollars . To continue growing deficits eliminate spending somewhere else . I get that but that is why you left people in washington. Some things the people dont know that many Illegal Immigrants pay Social Security taxes and they will never get the benefits from them. It is a fact for or dont have numbers at my fingertips but that might partly answer your question. I was teaching in the spring of 2013 with many undocumented students. One was telling a story from a very different social backgrounds and one of their professors said something in class about the parents and the 401k plan and she looked around to say i am my parents 401 k plan. They dont have one. So from that anecdote first most of the people working in Senior Citizen homes are immigrants. Who will take care of the white people is the new immigrants because we are not replacing our population it is replaced from the young immigrants and second, latin american immigrants are much less likely to put their old people into retirement homes. Those cetera undocumented are taking care of by a the children in their homes. My generation had a draft which was a great Americanization Program civics and american his revenue heard the panel if you would americanize Illegal Immigrants . What do mean by americanize . First of all, the children of undocumented immigrants rather born in the United States or elsewhere, go to school and the americanization process for those who grow up bin the United States is unquestionable. We dont need to do anything else to make it happen. Those who are adults the come here as adults are extremely eager to learn english and find their way to survive. They know in clashes necessary. The problem is extraordinarily long waiting list in english play bridge programs. To become americanized with competency but the resources are not