That was not my interest so i went back. Of this or that so basically i went back to the archives. Thanks for a wonderful talk. Do they ever express remorse if you talk to the zoo orders . No. Even after ota benga died there were callous comments made about taming the savage. There is no remorse. The but they doctored up the story of what happened he went from being a cage exhibits to a zoo employee. But never an expression but on the contrary later in life many years later he did express remorse, or so i heard. His grandson said he expressed remorse. [laughter] i went to school four minutes from your. I started in 83 and finished 1986. I was a dental Lab Technician we use a variety of equipment we had a student in the class with us and i noticed he would wait for someone else to use it then he would use it. So one day i am sitting at my desk so i said why deal always wait for someone else to use the equipment . He said i dont want to use it after you. I said why not . I am from brooklyn and i am 18. My initial thought is i did not have the maturity now. [laughter] what you talking about . You have a tail . Vitarelli. What did you just said . I said no. He said sure you do i saw that in a book. How long have you been in this country . He said this year now were talking to him. He said where did you get this . Tomorrow he brought the book how his parents taught him this before he came here to stay clear of black people. Ica the disconnect. If this is what you were taught in this is we think. I have two sons and i tried to teach them this with knowledge. It is actually documented. It makes it easier to do that. They were taught that for a very long time. I used to live in england and i remember the the id said where are you from . She said i amended wife. A midwife. I am so glad. When i came here they thought we had tails. I am so glad more black people are coming here to be boarded on hospital to see that they dont have tails. 1962 that they thought when the black people were born and details were removed. The tales were removed. Good evening. A couple of questions. Usa question is under so complex. He was buried he had a proper funeral because he was not a member of the community. He was buried in the city cemetery. But today theyre not quite sure if his remains are still there because it is so overgrown but oral histories suggest he was taken to another cemetery with sell Lynchburg Community proposal we have been searching if you go to lynchburg Everybody Knows to ota benga is. He is the adored figure and everybody wants to know. So if people are prepared to take the lead dna test. Yes. So he is buried somewhere in one of the two cemeteries. Did the condo government ever reach out . Today . There has been efforts by some to reclaim his remains. I came out tonight at of interest we gain the cover of the book. It is hard to draw linear ties to what is happening today and with a caricature. One but the problem in the community so one thing i have to say this past weekend, i purchased the book four years ago called the sanctuary in this is literally a picture ever write about that period. Also there has been very little written in the south which is why i was so interested. I did know that history of the lynchings throughout the south but i did not know it was going on here. Into the draft around the civil war when africanamericans were beaten and killed by mobs had hanged entries. I knew that history but it seems like there was a dropoff. Then this story allows you to look at what was going on but yes i appreciate your comment. So that is what i appreciate that from incarceration and asked to do with people of color better blacken now behind bars. The 400 pages of people hanging from trees. I said i have not opened it in four years but i appreciate this because this tells the story in justice and peace and that is what we can honor to tell the story. I appreciate that. Felt was an important part of the mission because so many other people were telling it to i wanted to get his voice. Thank you. You mentioned the New York Times and the articles and how numerous i am curious of their opinion . The black press did write about it and it was covered nationally from people who did not know about the story. It was covered by practically every paper across the country from the Washington Post if you were anywhere in this country would have known about ota benga. Thanks for coming tonight. It is great to be here. In doing this did you hope there are themes that white people would pick up on . I dont do my work life that i dont do what white people should know. [laughter] i think of all people. I dont work that way. For this audience for that. I of the truth junky to get at the truth that could be uncomfortable even for us. I am about humanity. If we can all get closer to that it would be a good thing. Thank you. Me. Is that it . If youd like to read more. If any spoke to his interests at the seminary . A lot of the class is academic courses and africans had studied there then read back as missionaries but he did not stay there long. She had no right things . No. That would be so great. You mentioned earlier the conflict is still going on where is that still going on . I dont do research on the human people but the last one or the last two that i saw one was in germany and what was in spain. Dash any point ever did they pay punitive damages . The city . This city supported it. To know where your next project will be . I wish i had that incite. Part of that will be to sleep and rest a the told them more. Because i go into a whole when im doing research. I disappear. So i am happy to be merged to see friends and family. [applause] senator book is available and give shop still free to come u in and [inaudible conversations] good morning. Welcome to the Heritage Foundation. And the soon join us on all of these occasions and we would ask our guest to check that yourself phones have been turned off as a courtesy to our speakers and the internet viewers are reminder to send questions are comments. Of course, we will posted on the web site leading the discussion today is john not go. Also director of the foundation for studies. And an executive Vice President in charge of antipiracy and to offer International Religious freedom. John malcolm. [applause]. From the Vantage Point that few have seen starting off as a military Police Officer that would rise through the ranks ricky was credited with the ungovernable prison with of Police Commissioner to oversee the n. Y. P. D. Response to the twin towers. Serving as a National Security adviser and appointed by president bush to be the interim interior minister of the iraq coalition. Budget teeeighteen is also served time in federal prison. The federal government initiated an investigation that led to eight charges including criminal conspiracy and tax fraud and lying under oath for purdue is sentenced for years in prison and served most of that time. He has now written an account of trams and challenges the average yields cop are available in the lobby so he and i will engage in a moderated dialogue after that with some questions from the audience. Bernard kerik. [applause] good morning first thank you to john at the Heritage Foundation for the invitation to be here and to speak about the book. I have been a correction officer and a federal agent and the warden of the county jail in new jersey than over six years at the time was one of the most violence systems in the nation in the sixth year period i took a for one of the most violent mismanage systems in the country to accountability and safety the average 150 stabbings per month then took over in the year became Police Commissioner we had one with a 93 reduction of violence and every area of management within the system. Than in 2000 i became Police Commissioner violence was down and crime was down in the city had a 46 the morning of september 11th it was the most trying time for the n. Y. P. D. With of the darkest days in our countrys history but i got to witness the best and worst that flew the planes and the best to watch that rescue mission one of the most substantial and history of our country carried out by men and women of the new York City Police department and port authority. From that point on, my career in Public Service was straight uphill. And talent was nominated by the president and i thought i knew our criminal Justice System i thought i knew better than anyone and tell i was actually a target of the prosecutors and i found myself in a federal prison and they came to realize quickly that our criminal Justice System in my opinion is flawed and failed in many ways. I will summon up that i think this most important to evade the sentencing guidelines of mandatory minimums that we live by today have to be repealed. Or abolished perk up i think judges have to have the ability to judge. I think were putting in way too many people with addiction in prison they need treatment not prison but then retake young ben firsttime nonviolent offenders in this is what struck me the most when i went into prison, i put a lot of bad people in prison that did bad things and i am no different today of a law and order type person that i was 20 years ago. And i put people in prison that wanted to kill me and people i would seize cocaine or drug proceeds then i go to prison and i met these John Blackman 45 grams of cocaine. Touche sugar pacs 10 years. 15 years. Because it was a thirdparty or fourth Party Conspiracy and a commercial fisherman who caught too many fish are the wrong size fish. I met a guy who sold wailes to ebay. One enhanced their income on a mortgage application. Federal prison. Thousands upon thousands for these offenses. The one thing that i have come to realize that the general public by no and a mouse silly confident that the general public does not know is we are creating a permanent underclass of american citizen, of second class by the millions. Because once you are a convicted felon, you are a secondclass citizen until the day your data in die. Deere debt to society is never paid. Ever. We are supposed to incur some incarcerate we are supposed to punish and make People Better to get them back into society as a better person but i promise you that is not happening. If we didnt have the advocacy groups around this country that we do today like the Heritage Foundation and others i cannot tell you how bad this society would be ended many cases with the of lowlevel first time offender cases, a society their families into ease and the system has failed them that we stick them in prison we should not have an option for failure theyre supposed to have programs to benefit them and i can assure you where i was we have a dull continuing education programs. But as i stand here and these are real examples common knitting, crocheting, chest knitting, crocheting, chest, checkers. That will not reduce recidivism. If you take people convicted of realestate fraud and engaged them to teach a realistic class to another convicted felons. Number one you are letting someone teach the people that were convicted that is hypocrisy and worse than that is that once they teach these people, theyre supposed to teach them something that helps them for when they get out on the outside. You can teach them but they cannot get a job as a realestate agent you can teach them to be an accountant they cannot get a job because they are convicted felons. This is probably one of the most important issues Going Forward. The collateral consequence of a conviction is personally and professionally annihilating for the rest of your life. Very few and far between two people come out who are after a felony conviction with any sort of success unless their entrepreneurial or there is a special skill. But the consequences that come with the conviction are completely annihilating and we have to do something about that. You have to pay your debt to society your civil and Constitutional Rights should be given back to you because as it stands today that never happens. Ever you lose rights that are never given back the run never made whole again as an american citizen. Matter what you do. I was with a young man the United States marine sniper. Night vision goggles his own personal ones and sold them on ebay. He was convicted in a conspiracy because the person he sold them to did not have the appropriate permits to sell them abroad. He was 21 sentenced to 30 months in prison. Because he did something he did not even know was wrong. That being centcom if he lives to be 120 in the complete angel on the outside you will still have that collateral consequence over his head and tell the day they put than in the ground. It is wrong. Year founded by a constitution and of the governing body said the punishment should fit the crime but today the American Government the punishments to not fit the crime and that has to change. Thank you. Just day at the podium. It is a Remarkable Book u. S. From one of the nations top cops to a federal inmates. That is quite a fall the pain is evident on every page of the book so why did you write the book . Guest a lot of people when i wrote the book, especially critics say he is writing the book to make money. To make up for losses. And i have to tell you and i could not agree more, for the losses i have had over the last 10 years as a result of the investigation of my conviction that book would have to sell more copies than the bible. This isnt about money. Basically is is about an education what i said earlier that i am confident the American Public doesnt know the things i have learned i said that for a reason. I know they dont know and i am positive many of the legislators those who write the laws dont know either. And i know that because i did not know. I work for to the biggest organizations in this country the biggest Law Enforcement agency and i did not know many of the things i have learned since. If i dont know im sure the American Public does not know. That is what the book is about. It is in educating tool for the public and i think it creates the debate to change the laws. Every american citizen in this country read the book they would have to come away with one primary question is go to the legislature how is it that we common in this country are 5 of the worlds population as a whole yet well hold 25 of the worlds prisoners . How was that possible . How do we have more prisoners than russia and china . There is something wrong. In the book will open the to create the debate. E said it is like dying with your eyes open so can you describe what you mean by that . Guest if i heard that statement prior to my incarceration, i would not have had a clue what that meant. I would have had no idea i had been there for months at the time may be a few months already when this kid made the statement in your having a conversation one afternoon he had enormous problems his wife was diagnosed with cancer you was there for the first time with lowlevel drug charge she tries to get a compassionate release he tried to get to the hospital and he couldnt get it nobody else to take care of his kids. Basically he said this is like dying with your eyes open. It knoted up in my stomach like nothing before because i knew exactly what he meant. When you go to present come i dont care who, unless you are in institutionalized animal when you go to prison that is what happens. You die with your eyes open your in a stagnant position and you watch everything go on around you with your family and personal life and a professional life, everything. Everything goes on and no matter how bad it can be and i had some bad events that happened to my family while i was inside. My brotherinlaw of the into the hospital for routine surgery. Suppose to be in and out and he never left the hospital and died. He had three sons that were 13 yearold triplets. There is nothing i could do for him or his family or his wife and it was horrible. A few months later my son who was a Police Officer officer, his partner was shot and killed. During a robbery. I had the unfortunate position to bury more cops than anyone in this country as a police chief for commissioner but i could not be there for my son when his partner died. I know what that kidman to and that is what it is about host you mentioned family hendon the book you talk about the ordeal that this blood on your family and your son and your daughters. Can you describe about how they coped and the difficulties and how theyre doing now . When you go to prison prison, your life standstill but there is doesnt. And there is the reverse everything they do does not have you in its. So your children report cards, sporting events, the good that the al klay it all goes on without you. There is distance that is created between your children and your spouse. And none of that is good. I left my two daughters there were seven and 10 i came back there were 10 and 13. They were almost adults in my eyes. They were completely different. You come back to the same home but it is a different house he go back to the scene spouse but a very different relationship. There is nothing good about that distance. Not to mention the financial problems with a lack of income. I cannot tell you i am and was one of the fortunate ones. I cannot tell you how many men were taken out of the workforce. The commercial fisherman who koch too many fish, this is one of the problems i have with the system. Instead of dealing with him through a regulatory body which should have been, we turned him into a convicted felon. Pylos his boat, the six people lost their jobs from his wife works for the company and she was left alone. He went to prison now when he gets out 18 months later he has nowhere to go, the boat is on the company upon he can get a license. He is 55 that is all he has ever done what will he do . I dont know but i can tell you there are thousands of cases like that disrupt the the economy, families destroying families, putting people on public assistance and who pays for that . The american taxpayer. It is your laws and it is costing billions of not trillions of dollars over the life of the incarcerations. Host you also mentioned charged with the tried and convicted with your former boss and partner rudy guiliani. Im sure other friends it was impacted with that relationship . Mayor guiliani and i i worked with them for eight years in a new and two years prior to the police department. We had a company together a consulting group. We were very close. He was my boss and reporter and also the godfather to my two youngest daughters. When the investigation started, there is a distance we created between as mutually. And it was understood. I didnt want him involved in my case and he did not want to the attention coming down on him as he was running for president. I understood that. What happened later in the aftermath of my conviction, when i was sent to prison, i never heard from him again nor did my kids. I get it. If you did not want to speak to make to continue that distance it is fine but i dont think there is anybody in American Government that doesnt understand the pain that comes to a family when someone is incarcerated in a former u. S. Attorney. I would have hoped he was there for my children in my absence and he wasnt and that is painful but that is beyond me. So then you find out who your friends are. You are still under probation for another year. What are the current restrictions that you face and additional restrictions in the future . Travel restrictions. Constant oversight by the department of probation. They have an enormous job to do and a difficult job to do with probation to oversee people in the system. My problem that i have with the system, i think there has to be an evaluation process the people that are a threat better getting involved in crime, you have to stay on top of them. But then there is thousands of people that wind up on supervised release. They are not of a threat for recidivism or a threat to society. Not to threats of violence. The probation officers could be better served by focusing on people that is problematic. So that is where i have differences of opinion who is supervising and for how long but i will tell you my own circumstance. Companies dont want to hire people that is on probation because you dont want probation officer showing up at your work or at your company. You dont want that oversight or the government looking at you in any way. So the supervised release Operation Program is needed in many aspects. The win is not, other read the ec should be granted a real read these so they can go get the job and do something productive instead of sitting around doing nothing and having that hamper them to have a successful return into society. Host i will read the first to that conservativism but to be a former wellknown officer, i found a passage to said that the courts are punishing people who have made mistakes and no rewards for Good Behavior. For this alone our systems contradict their own Mission Statement for go for 30 years i believed it was honest and fair and in some ways i still do the after experiencing firsthand from the of the side the thaw and failures and injustices is is not only from the dangerous for every american in the future of this country. No greater threat to a free and democratic nation that a government that fails to protect citizens freedoms and liberties as aggressively to pursue justice. What you mean by this . Like i said. I thought i knew the system. I thought we punish people to do bad things but i didnt realize we also take people that violated a regulatory rules with a simple issue or administrative issue and we prosecute them. I did not understand that i never witnessed that. I did not know it existed in july was on the inside and got to talk to people. I heard case after case after case. Forget the stuff i read on the inside but i started to realize on the outside in the arena of prosecutions prosecutions, especially federal, prosecutorial misconduct is on the increase with staggering numbers. So much so the recently had a judge on the west coast that banish an entire United States attorneys office. For misconduct. Here is my problem. When i talk about governments protecting the liberties and freedoms of people and people who make mistakes, they can be mistakes. Not everybody is that bad bad guy. Not everybody has criminal intent. We have evolved where nobody can make a mistake. If you do it is criminal and the punishment is prison. I can assure you that prison is not necessary in every case for people to pay for their mistakes or to learn from their mistakes. Used to to wonder who is the person in the Sentencing Commission or in the u. S. Government determines ten years is better represented than five clicks because im curious to know what do they think happens that extra five year period it didnt happen in the first five. Somebody sentenced to a year and a day versus five years. Im sure that they never lived in an institution because i can tell you a day is like a week and a week is like the week is like a year, a year is like ten. And you dont know that. You dont get it unless you are on the inside. I spent 60 days in solitary confinement, strict solitary confinement surrounded by a bunch of terrorists and i can tell you that 60 days to me was like ten years, so i believe that we over punish and the people that that impose the sentences compose the sentences have no conception of what time is on the inside and as far as the rewards for Good Behavior weve had the second act, weve had a number of laws that have been put on the books to give men and women out of the system faster if they behave themselves i can tell you i was put into an extra Halfway House and i was denied and i know many other people that were put in as well. Nobody leaves the system earlier than they are supposed to no matter how good you are. They have four different jobs who did everything he supposed supposed to come in ever had an animated action, not one thing, he didnt get one thing off then one of the most in the compound but we live. Its wrong. We talk about being a country that is one of second chances. There are no second chances. Hispanic so you made reference to some of the people that you met in prison and you dealt with drug dealers and developed a relationship with jack eber off. Im curious what the differences in the similarities do you see among the inmates and what lessons did you take away from them . Most importantly, families and children. If there are similarities for most of the people that i was with it was their concern for the kids. Even the drug thugs as i would call them, some of them had been in the system for 25 years and they had come down to the point they were finally allowed to be in a minimum security camp. They had been in a the system for 20, 25 years. And ironically, nonviolent. They had a nonviolent offense they couldnt get into the camp and many of them are offenders. 20 to 25 years in the system. But there was still concerned with the kids and family members that was the area that many of us were like everybody had political differences. Everybody had differences of opinion but i think the thing we focused almost as our children into the reason is your kids are alone in life without you. Theres nothing you can do. I dont care what their needs are. If your spouse or family cannot help, they are doomed and that is why we see so many kids that have parents in prison and upcoming and prison themselves because there was nobody there for them and i believe that. So you got to see the common humanity of people. Everybody had that connection. Let me ask one other question them leave time for people in the audience. You said every prosecutor, judge, correction officer and jail and prison officials should have to spend 72 hours in the solitary confinement to see what its like. I am. Curious what advice would you give to the new york city Police Commissioner and head of the records i find. I think i said this in the book that wasnt just a thought. If i was running Rikers Island today part of the curriculum would be for every single ceo that goes through the academy would have to spend 72 hours in solitary. I would make that a mandatory portion of the training for a few reasons one of which you need to know what its like for the people on the inside is when you are outside to respond to them in a deal with them were respond to an Emergency Community to know whats going on, why they are thinking what they are because at the end of the day i can tell you i was in a cell that was 12 by eight that had a four by six cost so you are in a cell that is 12 by four. I was in for 60 days. I was left out of three times a week to take a shower and that was it. There was no contact with the outside world except one phone call, 115 minute phone call a month. No communications with the outside world except for mail which took forever. In and that 60 day period i found myself hallucinating, talking to myself. People would ask me how did you get through it. I counted. I counted up the steps from one one end of the walter the other into the bedsprings in the bunkbed overhead of the. There was nobody in it but i used to count them up and down to see if i could come up with the same number over and over. I counted the cracks in the walls. I counted up the blinds on the windows. I counted the mud splat on the windows forgot the state. You have no conception of what its like in solitary. And those that are in prison in the country, the is one of the most dangerous jobs but they have a job in which there is no conception of what its like to be on the inside of that and i think every one of them should know and the other thing when i talk about the prosecutors and judges, you watch from this point on and youve probably never paid attention to this but i would like you to look at it Going Forward when you see somebody arrested for the crime to hear that person has been placed in solitary confinement and then all of a sudden the person pleads guilty. Im going to tell you you will do anything to get out of so. You will say anything and do anything and admit to anything and that it should be a contributing factor to every decision and every prosecutors motives behind what they do and how they do it and whether they accept the plea from somebody. I can tell you you that you would do anything to get out of that so. You talked about a number of correction officers and interact with some that you thought were professional and did their job well and others decidedly less so. Lets bring up questions from the audience. I would ask when you get handed the microphone that you told your name and affiliation. Keep it short and end with a question. With that i dont we start with paul. Hispanic you were the director of the new York Department of corrections and the new york city Police Commissioner and say that you didnt know what it was like on the inside. How can a member of the the member of the public that works in a field that has no relation to the criminal Justice System come to learn what youve learned and how can the public be educated about the things youve learned when they dont remotely the experience you have in the system. 20 to 30 years ago when i got involved in Law Enforcement not many people knew about the cardinal Justice System. Not many people do with my knew what my job on this. Not many people that i knew 30 years ago knew anyone that has ever been in prison. The numbers changed substantially. And i notice even more since ive gotten out because i get flooded with email responses that come from my work website from people that have experienced some of the stuff that i talk about not themselves but through family members. Its hard for anyone to understand what goes on in the system and what the prosecutions are like. The cost. I talk about this in my look at one of the things ive learned people would find may be confusing or upsetting. The reality is there are so many people in prison that didnt have the money to pay for the real attorney to the violent appeal to their conviction or sentence in. The calling of the world today are astronomical. I was billed 150,000 cents 250,000 per month. In october of 2009. For the the one month of his 476,000. So you tell me if i cant get justice, if i can type system, how did the hundreds of thousands of other people that are less fortunate, how do they do it, they cant. And thats the thing the public doesnt get into the public doesnt see. And as far as how we educate them, this forum is one thing and this book is one thing
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