I appreciate that. Felt was an important part of the mission because so many other people were telling it to i wanted to get his voice. Thank you. You mentioned the New York Times and the articles and how numerous i am curious of their opinion . The black press did write about it and it was covered nationally from people who did not know about the story. It was covered by practically every paper across the country from the Washington Post if you were anywhere in this country would have known about ota benga. Thanks for coming tonight. It is great to be here. In doing this did you hope there are themes that white people would pick up on . I dont do my work life that i dont do what white people should know. [laughter] i think of all people. I dont work that way. For this audience for that. I of the truth junky to get at the truth that could be uncomfortable even for us. I am about humanity. If we can all get closer to that it would be a good thing. Thank you. Me. Is that it . If youd like to read more. If any spoke to his interests at the seminary . A lot of the class is academic courses and africans had studied there then read back as missionaries but he did not stay there long. She had no right things . No. That would be so great. You mentioned earlier the conflict is still going on where is that still going on . I dont do research on the human people but the last one or the last two that i saw one was in germany and what was in spain. Dash any point ever did they pay punitive damages . The city . This city supported it. To know where your next project will be . I wish i had that incite. Part of that will be to sleep and rest a the told them more. Because i go into a whole when im doing research. I disappear. So i am happy to be merged to see friends and family. [applause] senator book is available and give shop still free to come up if you have a book already. [inaudible conversations] what the terrorist group will do is put their message out of platforms that they know access via the largest population possible then they bombarded with thousands of messages every day of propaganda is run across the board so we are familiar with the shocking images it is despicable of Public Education execution but they also bombard them with micra targeted messages the same way that advertisers you to show a handsome young black actor in one video handing out candy to two children ended another video but in either hand holding a kick than. Images of a conduct life. It looks to see that large scale bombardment if they get someone on the book. Police commissioner talks about his career in Law Enforcement and the time he spent in prison following his conviction for tax fraud and making false statements from the foundation in washington, d. C. This is in and this is an hour welcome to the Heritage Foundation in the auditorium both of those that join us on all of these occasions ive ask the guest to be so kind to check their cell phones as a great courtesy to all of our speakers and of course internet viewers are reminded you can send questions or comments by simply emailing us at speaker of heritage. Org. Leading the discussion today is john malcolm as the Sherry Lindberg legal fellow at heritage is also the director of the center for legal and judicial studies. Joining heritage we joined a variety including for the Criminal Division at the u. S. Department of justice. He was in charge of antipapacy operations of the Motion Picture association of america and served as a general counsel at the u. S. Commission on International Religious freedom. Please try me in welcoming my code colleague. Its been a gorgeous today has seen incredible Justice System and the point that few of us have seen. He has been at the pinnacle of Law Enforcement in and the community. Having started as a military Police Officer he rose through the ranks to the corrections of the commissioner where he was credited in proving what had once been thought and im governable prison. He then served as the Top Cop Police commissioner where duties included overseeing the nypd response to the 9 11 attack on the twin towers. He was one of the most decorated Police Officers among the many for 30 medals of excellent meritorious and heroic service. He served as a National Security advisor to the king of jordan and king of jordan and was appointed by president bush to be the interim minister of the Iraq Coalition provisional authority and of course subsequently nominated by the president in 2004 to head the department of homeland security. Hes also served time in federal prison. After withdrawing the nomination the federal government initiated the investigation which culminated to eight charges including criminal conspiracy and lying under oath. He has written an account in the triumphs and challenges and ordeals, the copies of which are available in the lobby. He will now make brief opening remarks that he and i will engage in a moderated dialogue with each other and after that well have time permitting questions. Please join me in welcoming bernard. The process qquebec good morning. First i want to thank john at the Heritage Foundation for the invitation to be here and speak to you and speak about the buck as john mentioned ive been a christian officer, ive been a federal agent in new jersey and for six years i oversaw one of the most violent in the system. In a sixyear period i took it from one of the most violent best manage prison systems in the country to the International Model for efficiency and accountability. We averaged 150 per month and i took over in the mother became that is commissioner in the year 2000, we had one, a 93 reduction in violence and there were efficiency is in every area of management within the system. In the year 2000, i became the Police Commissioner. Violence was down, crying was down and everything was going fine until 8 46 on the morning of september 11. It was the most trying time for the nypd in the countrys history. But for me as bad as i was like out to witness the best and the worst, the worst demand that flew the planes into the towers into the pentagon and the best in watching the rescue mission which i consider one of the greatest and most substantial in the history of the country carried out by the men and women in the new York City Police department and fire department. From that point on, my career was up until i was nominated by the president. And i have to tell you i thought i knew our criminal Justice System. I thought i knew it better than just about anyone until i was a target of federal prosecutors and i had outdone myself in a federal prison and i came to realize quickly that our criminal Justice System in my opinion is flawed and failed anyways. So i will sum it up in a couple of things that i found most important to me. I think that the guidelines have to be repealed or abolished. The judges have to have the ability to judge. I think we are putting way too many people with Mental Illness and addiction in prison. We are taking young men caught first time and this is one of the things that struck me when i went into prison. I put a lot of people and i believe in a law and order and i got ive got a friend today and he and a law and order type of person than i was 20 years ago. And i put people in prison that wanted to kill me and then i worked with, people i seized cocaine from, then i went to prison and i met young black men, 18, 19yearsold. Two sugar packs in a Dunkin Donuts 15 years in prison because they were tacked onto some thirdparty conspiracy. Partial fishermen. There was a guy that sold on ebay. Young men that enhance their income in a Mortgage Application to buy their first home, federal prison, thousands upon thousands of people in federal prison. The one thing that i have come to realize, and i think that the general public i know, i am absolutely confident that the public doesnt know we are creating a permanent underclass of american citizen in the country. A second class by the millions because when you become a convicted felon, you are a secondclass citizen until the day that you die if that conviction ever goes away. We are supposed to incarcerate and rehabilitate. We are supposed to punish and make people better. Get them back into the society. I promise you that isnt happening. If we didnt have the advocacy groups around the country that we do today like the Heritage Foundation and others, thousands of others, i cant even tell you how bad the society would be. In many cases especially these lowlevel drug cases, society failed these young men and women the communities have failed them and stayed in prison for ten years, 15 years. We shouldnt should have an option once the takeover and we feel them completely. They are supposed to have programs, and i can assure you where i was we had the continuing education programs. But as i stand here before real examples, chess, checkers, they are not going to do anything for reducing the recidivism. We take people that committed fraud and n. Gage them in a prison to teach a real estate class two other convicted felons. Theres two problems i have with that. Otherwise you are letting someone teach the topic for which they were convicted and worse than that is once they teach the people they are supposed to be teaching that something that helps them for when they get on the outside. You can teach that to be a master realtor. They cant get a job for the real estate agent. You can teach them to be an accountant and they cant get a job as an accountant. Thats the last thing you and this is probably one of the most important issues that i see Going Forward in this country. The collateral consequence of the conviction in this country is personally and professionally annihilated. Very far and few between the people and the federal prison or after any sort of success unless they are entrepreneurial or have some special skill. But the consequences that come with the conviction are completely annihilating. At after some time you have to pay your debt to society. Its the civil and Constitutional Rights to be given back to you because as it stands today, that never happened. You lose the civil and Constitutional Rights that are never given back. You are were never again hold as an american citizen that matter what you do. I was with a young man. He was 20, 21yearsold and was a sniper with a pair of night vision goggles. He was convicted in the conspiracy because the person he sold them to didnt have the appropriate permit to sell them. The kid was 21 and he was sentenced to 30 months in prison because he did something he didnt know was wrong. That being said if he lives to be 120 and is a complete angel on the outside. The conviction is lying over his head until the day they put him in the ground. Its wrong. Its filed by the constitution, by a governing body, by the Founding Fathers who said the punishment is supposed to decline. They and the American Government thank you. Why dont you sit at the podium. Kind of a Remarkable Book he went from being one of the nations top cops and this is a difficult book. Im curious why did you write this book lacks a lot of people when i wrote the book especially critics. Writing a book to make money and make up for losses. I heard this line once and i couldnt agree more for the losses that i had over the last eight to ten years as a result of the investigation of my conviction. That would have to sell more copies than the bible for me to make up for it. This isnt about money. This is basically about an education. What i said earlier that im confident the public doesnt know the things i learned i said that for a reason. I know they dont know and im positive of many of the legislators and the outlaws they dont know either. I know that. I went to one of the biggest organizations in the country. The biggest Law Enforcement organization in the country. I did not know many of the things that ive learned since. And if i didnt know him i am sure that the American Public doesnt know thats what the book is about. The book is an educated to for the American Public and i think it creates if i wanted to create a debate for the change to the law. That would be good to those which are in ask them how do we in this country have 5 of the worlds population. The United States as a whole is 5 of the population have totaled 25 . How is that possible . It opens up eyes to create that debate. In the book you quoted from a fellow prisoner its like dying with your eyes open. Please describe a little bit of what you mean by that. If i heard that statement prior, i wouldnt have had a clue what that meant. I wouldnt have had any idea. But i had been there for months. Maybe for four months already than this kid made a statement and we were having a conversation one afternoon he had problems his wife had been dying from cancer and he was there on a charge and tried to get a compassion to get to the hospital. He had nobody else to take care of the kids. It was a mess and then he was basically standing there and said to me it is like dying with your eyes open. They knew exactly what he meant. When you go to prison, i dont care who it is unless you are an institutionalized animal when you go to prison thats what happens you die with your eyes open. You are placed in a stagnant position and watch everything that goes on around you and your family come in your personal life of your professional life, everything. Everything goes on and no matter how bad it can be, i have some bad incidences happen. My brotherinlaw went to the hospital for a routine surgery. Supposed to be in and out in a day. Three sons were 15yearsold, triplets and there wasnt anything i could do for him, his family, his wife, and it was horrible. My son who was a Police Officer, his partner was shot and killed during a robbery. I had the unfortunate position as a police chief or commissioner. But i couldnt be there for my son when his partner died. I know what he meant when he said its like dying with your eyes open, and thats what its about. In public you talk about the idea of a cure son and daughter. Can you describe more about how they cope with the difficulties and also how they do it now. When the wife standstill, theres dont. And then theres the reverse. Everything they do it doesnt have you in it. So the sporting events, you made it, the good, the data, the ugly. It all goes on without you in it. Theres distance created between the kid, children and spouse and none of it is good. I left my two daughters that were seven and ten. I came back and gave her ten and 13. They were adults when i came back. You come back to the same home that you left and back to the same spouse, very different relationship. If there is nothing good about that distance not to mention that the financial problems that occur. I cant tell you, i am and i was one of the fortunate ones i know i cant tell you how many were taken out of the workforce. The commercial fishermen that cost too many fish, there were a few where i was. And this is one of the problems i have in the system. Instead of dealing with that guy through a regulatory body which it should have been, whats what we did is turned them into a convicted felon. He lost his vote, his wife worked for the company, she was left alone, he went to prison now he gets out of prison 18 months later and has nowhere to go. The company is gone and he cant get a license. What is he going to do for the rest of his life . I dont doubt that what i can tell you is that there are thousands of cases like that, disrupting the economy and families and east roy and families, putting people in public assistance. Its your loss and its costing us billions if not trillions of dollars over the reported cost of incarceration. For a close friend and boss Rudy Giuliani and im sure you had other friends impact on the relationship i wondered what you could talk about. I have known him for two years prior to that. Once i retired, we had a company together and we were very close to a. When it started, we created between us mutually and it was understood. I didnt want him involved in my case and he didnt want the focus and the attention that was coming down on me on him especially at the time that he was running for. He announced he was going to run for president. I understood that. What happened later was in the aftermath of my conviction i never heard from him again. In the distance that he wanted to continue, thats fine. But i dont think theres anybody in the American Government that doesnt understand. In the absence that was painful but it was behind me. On probation for another year as i recall what are some of the current restrictions that you face and what are the additional restrictions youre going to face in the future . Spaghetti with constant oversight by the department of probation, and they have an enormous job in overseeing people in the system. The problem that i have in the system is that there has to be an evaluation process for people that are a threat for getting back involved in crime. Spec they are not a threat to society. They are not a threat of violence and probation officers can be better served by focusing on people that are problematic. So thats why i find the difference of opinion county supervisor for so long. But i will tell you regard this as my own circumstance. They dont want to hire people on probation because they dont want them showing up at work and watching probation officers shoving about your company. You dont want that oversight. You dont want the government looking at you in any way. So, the supervised release program and Probation Program is needed in many aspects but when it isnt needed it should be granted so that they can go get a job you do something productive instead of sitting around and doing nothing and having them hinder that having a successful returning to society. Spec about to read a somewhat extensive quote to you. You have a cliche that the conservatives have been indicted. Being a former lawenforcement officer that the people behind bars i found this passage rather eyeopening. You said the courts say the courts are over punishing people that make steaks and prisons have no rewards or incentives for Good Behavior. And this allowed the commercial justice and prison systems contradict their own mission statement. For 30 years i believe the system is honest and fair and in some ways i still do but after experiencing firsthand from the other side its failures and injustices its not only wrong but dangerous for every american in the future of the country theres Nothing Better than to protect the citizens freedoms and liberty as aggressively as it pursues justice. What did you mean by this . Like i said, we punish bad people that do bad things and what i didnt realize is that we also take people that violated the regulatory rules or civil issue. I never witnessed the indicted in that it existed until i was on the inside and got to talk to people. Her case after case after case. The stuff that i started to realize on the outside in the arena of prosecution especially in the federal prosecutions, the prosecutorial misconduct is on the increase of staggering numbers so much so that we recently had a judge i think out on the west coast that finished the United StatesAttorneys Office for misconduct. And heres my problem. When i talked about the government protecting the liberties and freedoms of people, the people that make mistakes can be mistakes. Not everybody is a bad guy. Not everybody has no intent. We have evolved into a society right now where nobody can make a mistake if the punishment is present. I can assure you prisons are not necessary in every case for people to pay for the mistakes were to learn from the mistakes. I can assure you that the amount of time people have been given for those mistakes in the case. I used to to wonder who is the person in the Sentencing Commission or in the u. S. Government determines ten years is better represented than five clicks because im curious to know what do they think happens that extra five year period it didnt happen in the first five. Somebody sentenced to a year and a day versus five years. Im sure that they never lived in an institution because i can tell you a day is like a week and a week is like the week is like a year, a year is like ten. And you dont know that. You dont get it unless you are on the inside. I spent 60 days in solitary confinement, strict solitary confinement surrounded by a bunch of terrorists and i can tell you that 60 days to me was like ten years, so i believe that we over punish and the people that that impose the sentences compose the sentences have no conception of what time is on the inside and as far as the rewards for Good Behavior weve had the second act, weve had a number of laws that have been put on the books to give men and women out of the system faster if they behave themselves i can tell you i was put into an extra Halfway House and i was denied and i know many other people that were put in as well. Nobody leaves the system earlier than they are supposed to no matter how good you are. They have four different jobs who did everything he supposed supposed to come in ever had an animated action, not one thing, he didnt get one thing off then one of the most in the compound but we live. Its wrong. We talk about being a country that is one of second chances. There are no second chances. Hispanic so you made reference to some of the people that you met in prison and you dealt with drug dealers and developed a relationship with jack eber off. Im curious what the differences in the similarities do you see among the inmates and what lessons did you take away from them . Most importantly, families and children. If there are similarities for most of the people that i was with it was their concern for the kids. Even the drug thugs as i would call them, some of them had been in the system for 25 years and they had come down to the point they were finally allowed to be in a minimum security camp. They had been in a the system for 20, 25 years. And ironically, nonviolent. They had a nonviolent offense they couldnt get into the camp and many of them are offenders. 20 to 25 years in the system. But there was still concerned with the kids and family members that was the area that many of us were like everybody had political differences. Everybody had differences of opinion but i think the thing we focused almost as our children into the reason is your kids are alone in life without you. Theres nothing you can do. I dont care what their needs are. If your spouse or family cannot help, they are doomed and that is why we see so many kids that have parents in prison and upcoming and prison themselves because there was nobody there for them and i believe that. So you got to see the common humanity of people. Everybody had that connection. Let me ask one other question them leave time for people in the audience. You said every prosecutor, judge, correction officer and jail and prison officials should have to spend 72 hours in the solitary confinement to see what its like. I am. Curious what advice would you give to the new york city Police Commissioner and head of the records i find. I think i said this in the book that wasnt just a thought. If i was running Rikers Island today part of the curriculum would be for every single ceo that goes through the academy would have to spend 72 hours in solitary. I would make that a mandatory portion of the training for a few reasons one of which you need to know what its like for the people on the inside is when you are outside to respond to them in a deal with them were respond to an Emergency Community to know whats going on, why they are thinking what they are because at the end of the day i can tell you i was in a cell that was 12 by eight that had a four by six cost so you are in a cell that is 12 by four. I was in for 60 days. I was left out of three times a week to take a shower and that was it. There was no contact with the outside world except one phone call, 115 minute phone call a month. No communications with the outside world except for mail which took forever. In and that 60 day period i found myself hallucinating, talking to myself. People would ask me how did you get through it. I counted. I counted up the steps from one one end of the walter the other into the bedsprings in the bunkbed overhead of the. There was nobody in it but i used to count them up and down to see if i could come up with the same number over and over. I counted the cracks in the walls. I counted up the blinds on the windows. I counted the mud splat on the windows forgot the state. You have no conception of what its like in solitary. And those that are in prison in the country, the is one of the most dangerous jobs but they have a job in which there is no conception of what its like to be on the inside of that and i think every one of them should know and the other thing when i talk about the prosecutors and judges, you watch from this point on and youve probably never paid attention to this but i would like you to look at it Going Forward when you see somebody arrested for the crime to hear that person has been placed in solitary confinement and then all of a sudden the person pleads guilty. Im going to tell you you will do anything to get out of so. You will say anything and do anything and admit to anything and that it should be a contributing factor to every decision and every prosecutors motives behind what they do and how they do it and whether they accept the plea from somebody. I can tell you you that you would do anything to get out of that so. You talked about a number of correction officers and interact with some that you thought were professional and did their job well and others decidedly less so. Lets bring up questions from the audience. I would ask when you get handed the microphone that you told your name and affiliation. Keep it short and end with a question. With that i dont we start with paul. Hispanic you were the director of the new York Department of corrections and the new york city Police Commissioner and say that you didnt know what it was like on the inside. How can a member of the the member of the public that works in a field that has no relation to the criminal Justice System come to learn what youve learned and how can the public be educated about the things youve learned when they dont remotely the experience you have in the system. 20 to 30 years ago when i got involved in Law Enforcement not many people knew about the cardinal Justice System. Not many people do with my knew what my job on this. Not many people that i knew 30 years ago knew anyone that has ever been in prison. The numbers changed substantially. And i notice even more since ive gotten out because i get flooded with email responses that come from my work website from people that have experienced some of the stuff that i talk about not themselves but through family members. Its hard for anyone to understand what goes on in the system and what the prosecutions are like. The cost. I talk about this in my look at one of the things ive learned people would find may be confusing or upsetting. The reality is there are so many people in prison that didnt have the money to pay for the real attorney to the violent appeal to their conviction or sentence in. The calling of the world today are astronomical. I was billed 150,000 cents 250,000 per month. In october of 2009. For the the one month of his 476,000. So you tell me if i cant get justice, if i can type system, how did the hundreds of thousands of other people that are less fortunate, how do they do it, they cant. And thats the thing the public doesnt get into the public doesnt see. And as far as how we educate them, this forum is one thing and this book is one thing. I have created the American Coalition for criminal justice. My function behind this is to educate the American People and make them go to the legislators have called for change because at the end of the day, but the Heritage Foundation and all of these advocacy groups allowed for fighting for change in fighting for the reform. If you dont fight to change the laws you will be having this 30 years from now doing the exact same thing. The law has to change and the more the public knows about what goes on in the system and the reality, the more they will fight for change because i promise you the American Public and the legislators who saw what i saw and witnessed what i witnessed there would be in there and outrage and chain. Now the mission is to get them to see. Hispanic did you get any different perspective after you got to know jack abram off and also did you have any speculation or theory about the arrest that led to the death of a man in baltimore and the six Police Officers that have been accused, do you have a sense of what they are going through now . I knew jack by reputation before i met him in prison. I found him to be charismatic, funny, standup canadian if he couldnt find a job. He was a nice guy. I read all the stories. I read some books about what he was accused of and convicted of. I can tell you this going through with the baltimore Police Officers are going through forget the baltimore cops for a second. Any one of you, anybody in this audience if they handed you a criminal indictment, that indictment says the United States of america versus what would have your name on it. Tax evasion, i dont care what its for. Its a fight for your life. Neil franklin from the Law Enforcement against prohibition. You mentioned some of the things of what you are trying to do as far as asking citizens to go to the representatives and advocate for the reform to assist with that are there any other specifics regarding policy reform and any type of policy reform that you would advise on advocating for what were some of the specifics in the pieces of legislation . First the guidelines and second, for the legislators to look at how they incarcerate a mentally ill and what we did for the first time violent offenders in the drug world. They have the vocation skills and things of that nature things that would help reduce recidivism that can be monitored and tracked and there could be accountability in the systems. Last, the fourth and probably the most important is the removal of conviction. At some point you have to pay your debt to society but it shouldnt last eternally until the day you die. Only in the most extreme cases should that happen. There is a reason for prison. Prison as a punishment. You put them in prison. Some are there for a long time and some are there forever. They get back into society or try to get back into society to be a successful citizen and get rid of the conviction, get it off the record, do something that helps to give back the civil and Constitutional Rights because as it stands today they are a second class citizen on told the day they die. I matter how good they are and how good they become afterwards. I had a quick question. I believe that there is a selective prosecution. But also maybe im wrong. Please correct me. When we look at some people who use the billiondollar and some people like you is a different issue he was the night and it seems like theres some selective sentencing and also it is appointed by the precedent in any comments that you have would be fantastic. Anyone that thinks that there is no selective or political in the country come you have to be really naive. Thats what i think. And that is the reality. I want to make this clear ive worked with some of the best United States attorneys in this country. Ive worked with some of the best prosecutors and grand one of the most substantial investigations in new york history prosecuted through state and feder o