Transcripts For CSPAN2 Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20240622

Come to order. I want to thank the witnesses for being here today. And we look forward to a fulsome hearing. I want to thank those, also in attendance. I know there was a little bit of an outbreak prior to us convene convening. We thank you for being here. We do hope youll respect that now the meetings in order. Outbursts of any kind are unwarranted and will respect the democratic process that is taking place here. So, again, we thank you for beg being here. We also thank you for your courtesy as we move ahead. I know the witnesses have agreed to be here as long as we wish. So well start with sevenminute questions. I do know based on last nights presentation, theres sometimes a tendency for witnesses to want to interject. And what i would say is, obviously we conduct our meetings with a lot of respect and courtesy. And i would just ask the witnesses if they would to respond directly to the question from senators on both sides of the aisle as if they ask when you ask it directly to a witness witness getting them to respond. If someone else wants to interject, they can indicate they want to do so. Senators should feel free to say, no, i just wanted that witness and move on to the next to make sure that we dont end up in a somewhat filibustered situation. Were able to fully get our questions answered. We would not be here today we would not have the information that we have today if we had not passed the Iran Nuclear Agreement review act. This would not be taking place. I think the American People now understand what this debate is all about. When congress put in place sanctions to bring iran successfully to the table as we did, we granted the executive Branch Something called a National Security waiver. What that meant was the executive branch had the ability to weigh our congressionally mandated sanctions to suspend them until such a time as we permanently waive them down the road. And as you know, unfortunately, over the objections of senator carden and myself, unfortunately, the executive branch went directly to the United Nations this monday morning. Something that was certainly not in the spirit of this this was what was always intended. While secretary kerry said its one point in time. We read the agreement and realize what they meant was eight years from now, they would have the opportunity to weigh in because thats what its thats whats stated in the agreement. So i want to thank everybody. All 19 members for coming together unanimously making that happen. And giving us a role, its a heavy lift, as we know. But a role that did not exist prior to that passing. I would like to say we had a briefing last night and i talked to both sides of the aisle. I was fairly depressed after last nights presentation. With every detail of the deal that was laid out our witnesses successfully batted them away with the hyperbole that its either this deal or war. Therefore, we were never able to appropriately question or get into any of the details because every time we did, it was either this deal or war. I believe that to be hyperbole. By the Prior Administration. I dont know if hell refer to that today but as i thought about it laying last night in bed, i realized that what he was really pointing out with that letter is unless we give iran what they want x, thats what that letter was used for last night. Let me walk through that. Weve been through an incredible journey. We began 20 months or so ago with a country that was a rogue nation. That had a boot on its neck. And our goal was to dismantle their program. Weve ended up in a situation where its a deal on the table basically codifies the industrialization of their Nuclear Program. Its amazing, amazing transition that has occurred. And yet, everyone here, not a person in this room, including our witnesses, everyone here knows theres not one practical need for the program that theyre billing. Not one. Not one. Weve not had a single scientist, not a single witness can lay out any reason. Not a single reason for iran to be developing this program from the standpoint of what it means to them from a civil standpoint. Not one. Nine months after this agreement goes into effect, we realize that after mondays u. N. Adoption unless congress intervenes, in 90 days this will be implemented. And then six months after that all the sanctions will be lifted. Incredible. Now, therell be a few remaining sanctions. But the big ones that matter will be lifted. So well have access to billions and billions of dollars. Their economy will be growing, theyll be shipping all around the world. Its an amazing thing. And so what happens, i think all of us figured this out as we went through the deal. Right now, we have some leverage, but 9 months from now, the leverage shifts to them because we have a sanction snapback. What they have if we ever tried to apply that is whats called a nuclear snapback. The way the deal is structured, they can immediately just begin. They can say well, if you add sanctions, were out of the deal. They can immediately snap back. The possible military dimensions i think most of us call it the previous military dimensions because we know they were involved in that. Basically, that has no bearing, no bearing per the agreement. And i know our witness will say, well, if they dont deal with this properly, it wont implement. According to the agreement, it has no bearing whatsoever on whether the sanctions are removed or not. And that was such an important piece for everyone to know. Last night, we had witnesses saying, i never said that. Its been a part of our mantra from day one. Its been a part of their mantra from day one. Anywhere, any time. Inspections. Now, we have a process that theyre declaring is 24 days. But we all know thats not right. 24 days begins after by the way, the ia ea has found violations theyre concerned about. And then you give iran time to respond to that. And then by the time it kicks in, there is a 24day process. But it could be months. And as we know, in laboratories when theyre developing a nuclear warhead, its about this big, its very easy to cover things up like that. And all the all the focus has been on finding uranium and other aspects of this that are very difficult to find. I know this is the most comprehensive inspection regime weve had thats not true. Thats not true. Ive talked to secretaries of state and others, we had a far more comprehensive and rapid Inspection Program in iraq. Far more. And that certainly didnt service particularly well. Ben and ive written a letter asking for the additional materials that we dont now have. One of the items we dont have is regarding the agreement between iran and the iaea. And my sense is, were never going to get that letter. So the inspection entity that were relying on to find out whether iran is cheating, were not even going to have access to that agreement. Well, let me tell you this, we do know one of the characteristics is very interesting. We have a professional athlete that spends about a month there. Hes incredibly the role model. He is having incredible integrity. Hes a role model to the world. And i was talking to him a couple of weeks ago about the program that professional athletes go through for drug testing. Its incredible. That is any time, anywhere. There are qualities to this, im told i cannot get into. But there are qualities to this program that would not be unlike causing athletes to just mail in their own urine specimens in the mail and us believing thats where it came from them. So, look, ive got some questions. Were going to talk a little bit about who were dealing with here. Most of us have been to iraq many times. And ill never forget visiting odierno in baghdad and every time hed have on the coffee table the ifps. That were used to maim and kill americans. They were laying there on the coffee table, every single one of them made by iran. Once we developed the technology to counter that what they did next was develop something called an efp. Explosively formed penetrator. What they do is have an explosion that heats up copper to go through a piece of machinery to maim and dismember americans. This was all iran. Every single bit of it. Weve visited these incredible heroes that have lost in some cases, two rm aarms and a leg. In some cases, two legs and two arms. We see them all over the country. Theyre living with this today. This is the country that were dealing with. A country that created some of the most disturbing types and methods of maiming americans that have ever been seen. They tried to kill an ambassador here in washington, d. C. Not long ago. I mean, we know that. Ben and i went over to, with others, to the other day to see something the Holocaust Museum put together. A young man named caesar had taken photographs of the syrian presence, which by the way, iran supports. Syria would not even be in office if it would not be for iran. We went over many of you have seen it on the internet. Its an amazing thing. Its happening right now by the way, as we sit. Some people might say, well, that was iraq and i dont know should we have been there or not . This is happening this very second with the support of iran. Do you understand that . Peoples genitals right now being amputated. People are being electrocuted. This is happening. This very second. In a prison in iran. I mean in syria that iran some would say we havent done as much as we could to stop it because, because of these negotiations. When i was in college i wasnt a particularly good student. First part of college, i was interested in sports. The latter part, i was interested in working. I learned one thing i learned about the critical path. And all over our country. And i learned that you can start with Something Like this and you lay out a vision and you build it out. And begin with the end in mind and put first things first. Its the critical path. And what ive seen our secretary do is develop a tremendous warmth with irans foreign minister and talks about it often. But what i think youve actually done in these negotiations is codify a perfectly aligned pathway for iran to get a Nuclear Weapon just by abiding by this agreement. I look at the things that they need to do the way its laid out, and i dont think you could more perfectly lay it out. From my perspective, mr. Secretary, im sorry. Not unlike a hotel guest that leaves only with a Hotel Bathrobe on his back, i believe youve been policed. Fleeced. In the process of being fleeced, what youve really done here is you have turned iran from no now congress. A few weeks ago, you were saying that no deal. Is better than a bad deal. And i know theres no way you could have possibly been thinking about war a few weeks ago. No way. And yet, what you say to us now and said it over and over yesterday and ive seen you say it over and over in television that if somehow congress were to turn this down, if congress were to turn this down the only option is war. Whereas a few weeks ago, for you you, for you to turn it down, the only option is war. I dont think you can have it both ways. Let me just say this. If congress were to say these sanctions cannot be lifted, it wouldnt be any different than the snapback that we now have where in essence the United States on its own, the United States on its own can implement snapback. But my guess is, the other countries as youve stated before wouldnt come along. So, weve got to decide which way that it is. I know you speak with a degree of disdain about our regional partners when you describe their reaction to this deal. One of the things we have to remember is if we had actually dealt with dismantling their Nuclear Program they wouldnt be responding in the way they have. But not only is this not occur, in addition, we are lifting the embargo in eight years. I have no idea how that entered into the equation, but it did at the end. We are lifting conventional weapons embargo in five years. And in a very cute way with language in the agreement. Unbelievably, we are immediately lifting the Ballistic Missile testing program. Were lifting that ban. So id have to say that based on my reading and i believe that you have crossed a new threshold in u. S. Foreign policy. Where now it is a policy of the United States to enable a state sponsor of terror to obtain sophisticated, Industrial Nuclear Development Program that has one real practical need. That is what youre here today to ask us to support. I look forward to our testimony and the appropriate questions. Senator carden . Well, first, mr. Chairman, thank you very much for convening this hearing. Thank you to your entire negotiating team. Incredible service to our country. Incredible sacrifice to their families. And thank you for your dedicated service, hard work and what you have your service to america. The iranian Nuclear Agreement review act that senator corker referred to passed earlier this year was an effort by the members of congress to set up the appropriate review for potential deal with iran. We are extremely pleased after difficult negotiations we were able to get the vote of this committee, get the support of the white house and we accomplished two major objectives in passing that statute. First, of course, we set up the appropriate review for congress. It allows us to take action, or we dont have to take action. It recognizes the fact that the sanction regime was passed by congress and that we have a role to play in regards to implementing any agreement as we now see in the jcpoa, that congress has a role to play. So its set up an orderly process. And this hearing is part of that process. It took you two years to negotiate this agreement. It took you two months in vienna to get to the final details. Were on day 4 of our review of 60 days. I have not reached the conclusion. And i would hope that most members, i would hope the members of the congress would want to get all the information allow those who are directly involved to make their case. We have hearings set up next week and the following week, and well get outside experts. Many of us have taken advantage of that opportunity in the past. And i would hope that weve all used that opportunity before drawing a conclusion. This is a very important agreement from the point of view of u. S. Foreign policy. Iran in that region is critically important to the United States security. But theres a second objective to the act, and that is to concentrate all of our effort on the bad guy, iran. And speak with unity as much as we could in the United States. So our negotiators could concentrate on vienna and not on washington. In dealing with getting the very best possible agreement. And i must tell you, mr. Chairman, i looked at the framework that was agreed to in april. And looking at the final agreements that weve gotten today. And our negotiators got an awful lot. Particularly on the nuclear front, which is beyond my expertise. We got things that there were many rumors during these last couple of months of what was going to be in this agreement and how it was going to be weakened from the april framework that, in fact, have been strengthened since the april framework. So i just want to applaud our negotiators for taking the strength of our unity and turning it into results in vienna. And well be talking a little bit about that. As we go forward. The objective is clearly to prevent iran from ever becoming a Nuclear Weapon power. That is our simple objective. We know who we are dealing with. This is a state sponsor of terrorism. This is a country that abuses human rights. Violates the Ballistic Missile area. We know all that. But we singularly are trying to prevent iran from becoming a Nuclear Weapon power because we know that is a game changer in the region. Thats the objective of this agreement. And the standard that we have to use because there is no trust in iran, the Supreme Leader on friday after the agreements were entered into said, we will trample upon america. We dont trust iran. But weve got to leave a motion out of this. Weve got to look at the agreements. And weve got to determine whether the compliance with this agreement by the United States will put us on a path that makes it less likely or more likely that iran will become a Nuclear Weapon power. Thats got to be the test that we use. Mr. Chairman, i have many questions. That i hope we will get answers today. I hope those answers will provoke a debate among us in congress and American People and help us make the right decisions. Since there is no trust, the inspection and enforcement regime is particularly important. We need to understand how it works. Do we have sufficient time to discover if iran is violating the terms of this agreement in order to take effective action to prevent iran from becoming a Nuclear Weapon power . Thats a question that we need to understand. We need to know the breakout times. We need to know what happens after the time periods. Do we have sufficient opportunity to prevent iran from ever becoming a Nuclear Weapon state . The commitment they make under this agreement. Are the inspections robust enough to deter iran from cheating . And if they do will we discover and be able to take action . Mr. Chairman you raised the 24hour window. I think all of us recognized there was going to be a protocol for inspection. But we need to know whether the 24hour delay knowing what iran is likely to do. Does that compromise our ability to have effective inspections . And i hope our witnesses will deal with that today because that is a matter of major concern. We need to note the answer to that. Have we cut off all pathways for iran to obtain a Nuclear Weapon . Particularly the Covert Military operations. We know thats a major concern. Thats why the pmd is particularly important, the chairman mentioned the pmd. And the work that the iaea are inspectors, International Inspectors. They have great credibility in this area. But we will want to know whether they have the capacity to do what were asking them to do. Will they have the access that we need . Because we do need to know about their prior military dimension in order to be able to go forward to make sure that we can contain any opportunity they may use for covert activities. Will we discover it and be able to take action . These are questions that we were going to ask. Weve read the agreement and still have questions. And we hope well get answers as to whether we have effectively prevented iran from using covert activities to develop a Nuclear Weapon. Will this agreement provide us iaea with sufficient access to the people, places and documents . So that we know their prior military dimension . Are the snapback provisions for reimposing sanctions adequate if iran violates this agreement . Thats an issue that i hope we will have a chance to talk about. At the end of the time limits in the agreement, iran will have the capacity to expand as the chairman rightly pointed out to an industrial capacity. They can get through there and Nuclear Enrichment and uranium enrichment. That, they can do. Do we have sufficient capacity knowing their commitments for nonproliferation, knowing their requirements of the Additional Protocols. Is that going to be adequate to prevent iran . Do we have a sufficient enough breakout time that if iran tries to become a Nuclear Weapon state after the time period that we have sufficient tools to prevent them from becoming a Nuclear Weapon power . These are questions we need to have answers to. Before we can make our judgments. Now, there are other areas. I wanted to be reassured that the United States still has the flexibility to impose nonNuclear Sanctions on iran for the support of terrorism, human rights abuses, and against a Ballistic Missile program. No one expects irans bad behavior to change on implementation date. We know who were dealing with. Will we be able to use the powers weve used in the past and build upon them to take action against iran, particularly in light that theyll have Additional Resources . Can we do that . And can Congress Work with the administration to strengthen those tools . Without violating the jcpoa . I want to know how the administration is updating the regional deterrent strategy against nefarious and stabilizing iranian activities and how were going to work with our partners to build up their capacity to counter iran, especially israel. The chairman mentioned the lifting of the International Arms embargo. Thats of great concern as to how it would impact on our regional partners. How will it impact an arms race in that region of the world. These are questions we need to get the best information we can in making our decisions. And lastly, let me mention this because i think its critically important. What are our options . If the United States walks away from us. How will we be perceived internationally . Will we be able to maintain effective enforcement of sanctions with our International Partners . And will iran come back to a negotiating table with a country that has walked away from an agreement . These are questions that we need to understand. We need to know that the options are right now, do we go forward . And what are the options . What are the consequences if we dont go forward . Mr. Chairman we have a full plate. And i look forward to hearing from our witnesses. And i hope that the members of this committee will use the information that we get today to debate the issue take the time that we have, and do whats right for the American People and ultimately make the decision that we think is best to prevent iran from becoming a Nuclear Weapon power. Thank you senator carden, i appreciate so much the way weve worked together on so many issues and the entire committee. With that, i know that our witnesses here today need no introduction. Theyre well known not only here, around the world in spite of our policy differences. I think each of us deeply appreciate the that make this. That may not be policy differences in some cases. But we deeply appreciate the tremendous effort that you put up put out on behalf of our country. We thank you for being here today. We thank you for being willing to be here today as long as it takes for everybody to get their answers. And with that, id like to introduce collectively secretary john kerry who used to serve with us and sit on this side of. Helpful to all of us in understanding the technical aspects of the deal. And someone we all appreciate deeply. Secretary lew who served in multiple positions here has been certainly affirmed by this committee in several towns. We thank you all for your Great Service to our nation. In spite of some of the concerns that we have here today. I think you all understand the drill. Take five minutes or so to explain as ive looked at your testimony. I know its very brief. Just to warn people in advance. Im going to defer my questions ben, and move to you immediately thereafter. And use my time to interject as things move along. So with that, secretary kerry. Well, thank you, mr. Chairman, Ranking Member carden, members of the committee and friends and former colleagues. We really do appreciate the chance to discuss with you the comprehensive plan that we in our p5plus 1 partners have developed with regards to this program. Let me emphasize to everybody here, this isnt just the United States of america. These are other Nuclear Powers. France, britain, russia china, they have a pretty good understanding of this field and of the challenges. And i appreciate the way in which they and germany which was the plus one all came together, all contributed, all were part of this debate. So youre not just looking at what this table negotiated. Youre looking at what the International Community, the p5 plus 1 negotiated. And theyre not dumb. Theyre experts every one of them in Nuclear Technology and ratification and verification. Smart people who spent a lifetime at this. I thank all of you for the role congress played. I was privileged to be the chairman of this committee when we passed the iran sanctions effort. And we all remember the debate, we passed it unanimously and it played a very significant role in bringing iran to the table and in helping to make it clear that we needed to bring about a serious and productive negotiation with iran. From the day that those talks began, we were Crystal Clear that we would not accept anything less than a good deal. And we defined it up front. As a deal that closed off the four pathways to a bomb. The two iranian pathways plutonium pathway and the covert pathway. So we set our standard and we believe we have achieved that standard. After almost two years of very intensive talks the facts are really Crystal Clear. The plan that was announced last week in vienna is, in fact a deal that does shut off those pathways. And provides us with guarantees for the lifetime of the npt and the participation of iran that we will know what they are doing. Now, the chairman mentioned in his opening comments, some phrase about unless we give iran what they want folks, they already have what they want. They got it ten years ago or more. They already have conquered the fuel cycle. When we began our negotiations iran had enough material for 10 to 12 bombs. They had 19000 centrifuges up from the 163 that they had back in 2003 when the Prior Administration was engaged with them on this very topic. So this isnt a question in giving them what they want. Its a question of how do you hold their program back . How do you dismantle the weapons program. And weve achieved that. Nobody has talked about dismantling their entire program. Because when that was being talked about they went from 163 centrifuges to 19,000. Everybody here at this knows what it takes to stop that. Its called military action. Theyre not going to stop it otherwise. Theyve proven it. Proved it during all those years. So under this terms of this agreement, iran has agreed now to remove 98 of the stockpile. Voluntarily, theyre going to destroy 98 of the stockpile of enriched uranium. Going to dismantle 2 3 of the installed centrifuges, and theyre going to take out the existing core of an existing heavy water reactor and fill it with concrete. Iran has agreed to refrain from producing or acquiring highly enriched uranium and weapons grade plutonium for at least 15 years. And if they began to do that, ernie moniz will tell you we will know it immediately. Iran has also agreed to accept the Additional Protocol and the Additional Protocol is an outgrowth of the failure of the north korea experience, which put in additional Access Requirements precisely so that we do know what iran is doing. And they have to ratify it before the u. N. Sanctions are lifted at the end of this process. They have to have ratified it. They have to have passed it theyve agreed to live by it from day one. Theyre going to live by the Additional Protocol. In addition, there are additional transparency measures. We can go into in the course of this hearing. Now, if iran fails to comply we will know it. And we will know it quickly, and we will be able to respond accordingly. By reinstituting sanctions all the way up to the most draconian options that we have today, none of them are off the table at any point in time. So many of the measures that are in this agreement are therefore not just for ten years, not just for 15 years, not just for 20 years, not just for 25 years of which there are measures for each of those periods of time but they are for life forever. As long as iran is within the npt. By the way, north korea pulled out of the npt. Iran has not pulled out of the npt. Remember that two years ago when our negotiations began, we faced an iran that was enriching uranium up to 20 at a facility that was secret and buried underground. And they were rapidly stockpiling enriched uranium and had installed nearly 2,000 nuclear centrifuges. They were building a heavy water reactor that could produce weapons grade plutonium at a rate of enough to produce one or two bombs per year and experts assess that the breakout time then as a result the interval required to rush to be able to produce enough material for one Nuclear Weapon was about two to three months. If this deal is rejected, we return immediately to this reality. Accept that the diplomatic support we have built with these countries that we have accumulated would disappear overnight. Let me underscore the alternative to the deal that we have reached is not what ive seen some ads on tv suggesting disen disingenuously. Some sort of unicorn arrangement involving irans complete capitulation. That is a fantasy plain and simple. At our own Intelligence Community will tell you that. Every Single Department of our Intelligence Community will reinforce that to you. The choice we face is between an agreement that will ensure irans Nuclear Program is limited, rigorously scrutinized and wholly peaceful. Or no deal at all. Thats the choice. The fact is that there are 189 nations that live by the npt. Five of them are as we know the main Nuclear Powers of the u. N. , and 184 of them are nonnuclear. In power. But they live by it. And we have lived by what the iaea does with respect to ensuring the surety of what all those 184 nations are doing. Including 12 that enrich. Now, if the u. S. Congress moves to unilaterally reject what was agreed to in vienna, the result will be the United States of america walking away from every one of the restrictions that we have achieved. And a great big green light for iran to double the pace of its uranium enrichment, proceed full speed ahead with a heavy water reactor, install new and more efficient centrifuges and do it all without the unprecedented inspection and transparency measures that we have secured. Everything that we have prevented will then start taking place. And all the voluntary rollbacks of their program will be undone. Moreover if the u. S. After negotiating this multilateral agreement with five other partners were to walk away from those partners, were on our own. Our partners will not walk away with us. Instead, they will walk away from the tough multilateral sanctions regime theyve helped to put in place. And we will have squandered the best chance we have to solve this problem through peaceful means. Now, make no mistake president obama has made it Crystal Clear that we will never accept the Nuclear Armed iran. Hes the only president who has developed a weapon capable of guaranteeing that. And he has not only developed it, he has deployed it. But the fact is iran now has. We all dont like it. Whether we like it or not iran has developed experience with a nuclear fuel cycle. To produce the material for a bomb, and we cant sanction the knowledge away. Remember sanctions did not stop irans Nuclear Program from growing steadily to the point that it had accumulated enough material to produce those ten Nuclear Weapons. By the way they didnt choose to produce them. Unlike north korea that developed one and exploded one and iran has done none of that. The truth is the vienna plan will provide a more strong and comprehensive and lasting means than any alternative that has been spoken of. To those that are thinking about opposing the deal because of what might happen in year 15 or 16 or 20 remember, if we walk away year 15 or 16 or 20 starts tomorrow. Without any of the longterm verification or transparency safeguards we have put in place. Over the past week i have spoken at length about what exactly this deal is, and i want to make clear what this deal was never intended to be. First of all, as the chief negotiator i can tell you i never etuttered the words anywhere anytime nor was it every part of the discussion we had with the iranians. This plan was designed to address the Nuclear Issue. The Nuclear Issue alone, because we knew that if we got caught up with all the other issues we would never get where we needed to stop the Nuclear Program and it would be ropeadope, staying there and negotiating one aspect or another and the highest concern for president obama was to make sure iran could not get a Nuclear Weapon, and we were disciplined in that. We didnt set out even though we dont like it and i have extensive plans i will layout if you want them about how we will push back against irans other activities, and its contributions to sectarian violence in the middle east and all of those are unacceptable and pushing back an iran with a Nuclear Weapon is very different than pushing back an iran without one. Ash carter was there yesterday, and the foreign minister said that Irans Nuclear deal appears to have all the provisions necessary to curtail irans ability to obtain a Nuclear Weapon, and saudi arabia, and the foreign minister of iran will be in the emirates this weekend. I would suggests effectively we will continue to press iran for information about the missing american and the Immediate Release about americans that have been unjustly head and there is not a challenge in the entire region we wont push back against if iran is involved in it but none of those challenges will be enhanced if iran gets a Nuclear Weapon. So the outcome cannot be guaranteed by sanctions alone and i wish it could but it cant be. By the way, it cant be guaranteed by military action alone. Our own military tells us that. The only viable option here is a comprehensive diplomatic resolution of the type that is reached in vienna and that deal we believe, and we believe we will show it to you today, and in the days ahead will make our country and our allies safer, and it will insure that irans Nuclear Program remains under intense scrutiny forever and we will know what they are doing and it will insure that the World Community is youtube knighted and insuring that Irans Nuclear activities will remain peaceful. We believe this is a good deal for the world, a good deal for america, and a good deal for our allies and friends in the region and we think it does deserve your support. Thank you. Secretary mmoniz. The agreement provides strong verification measures and it gives us time to respond if iran chose to violate the terms and fundamentally takes none of our options off the table. I want to stress that americas leading Nuclear Experts at the National Laboratories were involved throughout the negotiations argan livermore oak Ridge Pacific northwest, and Savannah River and the white 12 National Security complex and the kansas city plant all played important roles. They were essential in developing technical proposals and support of the u. S. Delegation and as a result of their work i am confident the technical under pinings of the deal are solid. The deal meets the president s objectives verification of iranian Nuclear Program that is exclusively peaceful and sufficient time to respond if it proves otherwise. The jcpoa will extend for ten years, the time it would take for iran to build a Nuclear Weapon. The first point i would like to make is the parameters as the Ranking Member mentioned are maintained and infact strengthened, not weakened, but strengthened in the final agreement. This means restricting the number, type and location of centrifuges, dialing back the rnd program and dramatically reducing the irans stockpile of low enriched uranium, and infrastructure is removed. All the reasons taken together are taken to establish the oneyear breakout timeline for accumulating highly enriched uranium. Something we have not stressed but i do want to add, at the end of the ten years, iran will have far fewer than 19 centrifuges because they acknowledge the breakage rate and they will not have a large replacement capacity because of the agreement. In addition, iran will have no source of weapons grade plutonium and the reactor is transformed under International Oversight and participation to produce far less plutonium than their current design and essentially immediate recognition if they try to deviate from that practice furthermore, all of the plutonium bearing fuel for the reactor goes out of life of the reactor. Iran will not engage in several activities that could contribute to the development of a Nuclear Explosive device including multiple point explosive systems. These and neutron special neutron sources. These commitments are indefinite. And for 15 years iran will not pursue plutonium, because iran will not engage in activities where that would be needed. To be clear, the deal is not built on trust its pretty hardnose requirements that will hreul. Iran limit irans activities. This is not what iran wanted. Its a substantial dialing back of their program. To preclude cheating International Inspectors will be given unprecedented access to all the nuclear facilities, and i guess there could be an exception if there were military occupation, but thats not the case and any other sites of concern. As well as the entire Nuclear Supply chain from the iranian supply to centrifuge manufacturing and operation. This access to the iranian supply chain comes with a 25year commitment and beyond 25 years even after a quarter century of compliance with a peaceful program assuming we get there, we still have as we have said many times, Additional Protocol in place to monitor Irans Nuclear activities but another thing we have also in perpetuity is their adherence to modified code 3. 1 which means they must notify the iaea even before they Start Building any nuclear facility. This eliminates kind of a loophole where one could do something covertly and say, oops we were planning to notify before we bought Nuclear Material. They must do this now in the planning stage so its another thing that we have beyond 25 years. The iaea will be permitted to use advance the technologies, including things like realtime inreachment monitoring which is a Technology Developed by our laboratories, in this case by the way oakridge played a major role, mr. Chairman. If the International Community suspects iran is going to cheat they can request access for inspection, and much has been made about the 24day Inspection Period where they could get access, and i did say the words anytime anywhere, and i many a pleased that yesterday a member of your caucus acknowledges however, the full sentence was anytime, anywhere in the sense of a welldefined process with a welldefined end time so i am pleased that we have established that. In fact, the iaea can request access to any suspicious location with 24 hours notice under the Additional Protocol which iran will implement. The deal does not change that baseline. The issue if an agreement is not reached then when the iaea requests access the 24day clock will start. This is a new tool a finite time, a new tool for resolving disputes within what we think is a short period of time and short is defined because of our confidence in environmental sampling that we will be able to have to implement to detect microscopic traces of materials even after attempts are made to remove the evidence of activities with Nuclear Material. In fact, irans history provides a good example. In february of 2003, the iaea requested access to a suspicious facility in tehran, and it was denied and negotiations dragged out for six months but even after that long delay environmental samples taken by the iaea revealed Nuclear Activity even though iran had made a substantial effort to remove and cover up the evidence, and we have an addition conducted our own experiments to verify the ability to detect very very small traces of uranium. The agreement will be implemented in phases, as has been said already. Some 10 years 15 years, 20 and 25 years, and then the key transparency measures that stay beyond 25 years, of course as long as iran is in the npt and if they were not in the npt, every alarm bell would go off and appropriate actions would be taken. In closing i want to acknowledge the tireless work of the negotiating team led by my colleague, secretary kerry and the u. S. Multiagency delegation worked together seamlessly, and the e3 ue plus 3 played a big role in the endeavor. The u. N. Security council is crucial to making sure iran come replies. I just want to say again, the deal is based on science and analysis because of its deep grounding and exhaustive Technical Analysis carries odd by our doe scientists and engineers, and its a good deal for america and our allies and global security. Iran will be thwarted from a Nuclear Capability with rather than without this agreement. Thank you for the opportunity to be here. Look forward to the discussion. Thank you very much. Secretary lew. Thank you mr. Chairman. Members of the committee, thanks for the opportunity to speak today about the joint comprehensive plan of action. A Foreign Policy decision of this significance deserves a thorough review. I am confident a full and fair debate on the merits will make it clear this deal will strengthen the u. S. Security and that of our allies. These measures have clearly demonstrated to irans leaders the costs of International Law cutting them off from the worlds march etc. And crippling their economy. Today the iranian economy is 20 smaller than it would have been had it remained on a pre2012 growth path. The United States government stood at the forefront with the bipartisan support of congress and this committee. We established a web of far reaching international ansanctions to come to the table. The worlds major powers have been and remain united in preventing a Nuclear Armed iran. That unity of purpose produced four tough u. N. Security Council Solutions and sanctions in many countries. The point of the sanctions was to change Irans Nuclear behavior while holding out the prospect of relief if the worlds concerns were addressed. Accordingly, once its verified irans provided key steps and extend its breakout time to at least oneyear phased sanctions. There is no signing bonus. There will be no immediate changes to u. N. Eu or u. S. Sanctions. Only if iran fulfills the sanctions, sanctions that target thirdcountry parties doing business with iran. We must guard against the possibility iran does not hold up its side of the deal so if iran violates the commitments once we suspended the sanctions we can snap back both u. N. And u. S. Sanctions. Since preventing the snapback requires an affirmative vote from the u. N. Security council United States has the ability to reinforce the sanctions. Our primary u. S. Trade embargo, with very limited exceptions iran will continue to be denied access to the largest market and maintain powerful sanctions targeting irans support for terrorists groups such as hezbollah, and its Missile Program and its human rights abuses at home. Just this week, treasury sanctions hezbollah leaders building on designations last month targeting the facilitators. Some argue that sanctions relief is premature until iran ceases these activities and i understand the concerns, but irans ties to terrorists groups are exactly why we must keep it from ever obtaining a Nuclear Weapon. The combination of those two threats would raise a nightmare scenario. A Nuclear Armed iran will be a far more menacing threat. If we cannot solve both concerns at once we need to address them in turn. Jcpoa will address the Nuclear Danger freeing us and our allies to check irans regional activities aggressively. By contest walking away from the deal would leave them with a short and increasing Nuclear Breakout time. We must measure realistic and what sanctions relief will mean to iran. Irans 100 billion in restricted foreign reserves which many fear will constitute the countrys longterm savings and not the budgetary allowance. After sanctions relief iran will only be able to freely access about 50 billion, and thats because over 20 billion are donated to china where it cannot be spent and additional funds are to irans energy and banking sector. Iran cant spend the usable resources as they will likely to be needed to meet International Obligations for external net and imports. Moreover president rawouhani, he faces over 500 trillion500 half a trillion dollars. Backing away from this deal to escalate the economic pressure and try to obtain a broader kau pitchlation from iran will be a mistake. Even if one believed that extending the sanctions pressure than resolving the threat of irans Nuclear Program, that choice is not available. Our partners agreed to impose costly sanctions on iran for one reason to, put a stop to its Nuclear Program. We could be left with neither a nuclear deal nor effective sanctions so its unrealistic that sanctions would force iran to toelgly capitulate. The joint comprehensive plan of action is a strong deal with phased relief only after iran fulfills its commitments to roll back a Nuclear Program and a powerful snap back later if they break the deal. It blocks irans path to a nuclear bomb. Thats an overriding interNational Security priority and should not be put at risk not when the prospects of an unconstrained Nuclear Program are such a threat to america and the world. Thank you and we look forward to answering your questions. Thank you very much. Senator cardin. It has been stated many times the United States maintains its ability to impose sanctions relative to support terrorism and Human Rights Violations and Ballistic Missile issues. I have read the jcpoa and there are several paragraphs that give me concern. Let me just read one. Its paragraph 29. The parties will refrain from any policy specifically intended to directly or adversely affect normalization of trade and economic relations with iran. Secretary lew, i want to get your assurance we have full ability to use the tools of sanctions against iran for its support of terrorism, human rights and nonnuclear typ activities which include congressional action that Congress Might want to take . Senator cardin, it was a matter of extensive discussion in the negotiations. We made clear in the negotiations that we retained the ability and we were going to keep in place sanctions on terrorism on regional destabilization and Human Rights Violations. In fact, we are not lifting sanctions that are based on those authorities and we are not designating entities that were designated for those reasons. We also have made clear we reserve the right to put additional sanctions in place to address concerns about terrorism, human rights when you say we that includes the congress of the United States . Congress has authorities in this area, and i know there is legislation pending regarding hezbollah, and we would work with you on legislation. The thing that we cant do is we cant just put it right back in place everything that was part of the Nuclear Sanctions and just put a new label on it. We reserved our rights to put sanctions in place that address those continuing malign activities. The iran sanctions act expires at the end of 2016. We will still be in the jcpoa period of time where a snap back of sanctions a viable hedge against irans cheating. Congress may well want to extend that law so that that power is available immediately if iran were to violate the agreement. Is that permitted under the jcpoa . I think if its on expiration its one thing and well advanced its another. Coming out of the box is very different than what you do when it expires. Let me ask the question is why would that be, its either allowed or not allowed and we will get to that, but the 24 days you referred to and i appreciate your explanation, but there are three types of activities that could place in violation of the jcpoa by iran, and they could be using material in violation and you have already addressed that issue as far as the 24 days, but it could involve weaponization or it could involve research not using Nuclear Material. Would the 24day delay compromise our ability to determine if iran is in compliance with the agreement. With the Nuclear Material, i think we addressed and is quite secure. Clearly when it goes into weaponization activities, even there there is a spectrum, for example, working with uranium metal is something that would involve Nuclear Material and i think we would have very, very strong tools there. When we go to other activities without getting into too many specifics, they will still be a variety of signatures for example, my secretary priority on the weaponization list would be explosively driven neutron sources, and i think there are there are certainly tell tale signs that we would have access to, and all the inspectors more precisely would have access to. Clearly as one gets into other areas, such as computer modeling and thats a different kind of detection challenge, and in all of these cases to go to undeclared sites we will rely upon our intelligence capabilities and those of our partners to be able to point the iaea to suspicious activities. But there are nonnuclear signatures, but it does get more complicated. Secretary kerry i want you to elaborate a little more on the capacity after the time limits and irans obligations after the time limits on its Nuclear Enrichment towards weaponization of a Nuclear Weapon. I understand they still have obligations under their nonproliferation treaty and they still have obligations with the additional proceeded calls under the nbt but can you tell us how much lead time we will have, what a breakout looks like after the 15 years and what assurances do we have that we will be able to detect and take action before iran becomes a Nuclear Weapon state after the 15 years . First of all, senator, after throughout the entire life of the agreement, the Additional Protocol provides for the right of access, and that is where the 24hour notice access comes from and they have to respond to it. So if we had any intelligence regarding a suspicious activity or suspicious site i might add among many, israel, countries in the region, we will have an incredible amount of sourcing for this and we would be able to put the ask to them and they have to respond to that and if they dont respond to that we have the ability to convene and vote and put back in place sanctions or to take other actions if we deem that appropriate. After the 15 years . Yes. Yes but let me just fill out for you, we also have a 20year component which allows us televised tracking of their centrifuge production of the wroters and bell yos on the centrifuges centrifuges, and we have access and monitoring tracking of the life of the uranium cycle, so from the mining and the mills and the gasification and the centrifuge out into the waste, we will have an ability the iaea will have the ability to appropriately monitor that every step of the way. If we have x amount of uranium coming out, or in the mill, if there is x amount of milling taking place and something is diverted and we dont see it go into the place its supposed to go to we will have extraordinary insight into this. Under the iaea process for civil Nuclear Programs, all of the facilities are declared because its a civil Nuclear Program. As such, there is literally 24 7 visitation in those sites. They are not even requests sort of situations and its only for the undeclared facility that you have a suspicion that you have to go through the other process. We will have amazing insight because they are living by the nbt, or allegedly they will live by the nbt, and thats what we have to make sure they are doing. They have daytoday insight to that. I might add to all of the colleagues, under the interim agreement, which by the way a number of people called a historic mistake and tragedy and you heard all of the same rhetoric now, and those same people asked for us to keep that in place two years later because it has worked. The fact is iran has lived up to every component of that over the course of the last year, they reduced the 20 uranium and undid iraq and so forth and so forth. I wont go through it all now. We will have a level of insight that is not being examined enough and understood enough, and nothing ends at 15 years. Simply, the size of the stockpile limitation ends and the enrichment they can enrich further, but we will have insight to that enrichment. 5 is the high end of it. If you start to enrich higher up around the 20 , you are talking about the Tehran Research reactor or a few other things. There is no rational whatsoever for something bigger. We would be all over it, and able to respond. We would actually have months to respond, to be honest with you. So the fact is the Breakout Team never goes down to a level below which we have an ability to respond, and i think earnie can speak to the full breath of the scrutiny. Mr. Chairman, may i ask one footnote because its what could be a collateral benefit of this agreement is that going to the uranium supply chain, the safeguards, i just want to add this is something the iaea really wants to have something more broadly so this would be a first in moving towards cradle to grave safeguards. I might add there are other firsts that unfortunately we cannot talk about relative to some of their procedures which i eluded to, and i would say to mr. Secretary, yes people have said that they would rather keep that in place and that doesnt mean they liked that in the first place but its on comparison, and i wanted to just clarify. We really need to leave emotion out of this, and i couldnt agree with you more, and it should be done in a nonemotional way but that doesnt mean we have to leave common sense out of this with all due respect. We have gone from the mantra of no deal is better than a bad deal and i have heard everybody say that a couple few weeks ago, and now we have gotten to the point where, well you have to accept this or else its war. The mantra has changed dramatically. All i can say is after reviewing this, and even in a cursory fashion, anybody who believes this is a good deal really joins the ranks of the most naive people on the face of the earth. When you are dealing with the people that we are dealing with here, with the history they have of cheating and everything else, anyone who can say this is a good deal i know the justification is well, its not perfect, but its not even close to that. I join the chairman in this in a closed hearing yesterday, we have been told we have no choice in this because we have gone from the position where we started, where we had iran isolated and they were viewed on the world stage as a poria, and if we dont go along with this, were told, the other negotiators are going to go along with this and the United States will be isolated on this issue and we will be the poria on the national stage. Just think about that. Where these negotiations have taken us from a situation where we had iran exactly where we wanted them to now if we dont go along with this then we are going to be the isolated poria character on the national stage. Well, look, the other thing that was so important in this was verification. We have to have verification. Everybody said this is the number one thing on verification. Well, everybody here knows that there is a site called parchin, it was designed i heard the secretary say that we are going to insure that their Nuclear Ambitions are only for peaceful purposes. How in the world does parchin fit that. It was designed and operated as an explosive detonation place and they designed a detonation trigger for a Nuclear Weapon. That stays in place. Does that sound like its for peaceful purposes. Let me tell you the worst thing about parchin, and you agreed to not even taking samples there. They are going to be able to test by themselves even the nfl wouldnt go along with this. How in the world can you have a nation like iran doing their own testing . I know secretary moniz who by the way, one of the brightest guys i know, he says we will watch it on tv and theres a good chain of custody for the samples being taken and are we going to trust iran to do this . This is a good deal . This is what we were told we were going to get when we were told that dont worry, were going to be watching over their shoulder and put in place verifications that are absolutely bullet proof. Were going to trust iran to do their own testing . This is absolutely ludicrous. The one thing that bothers me incredibly about this is the billions of dollars that irans going to get. We have been briefed on the fact that while they have been in the horrible Financial Condition and we have gotten them to a horrible Financial Condition, one of their National Priorities has been to support terrorism. They have supported hezbollah, hamas, the houthis with every kind of aid there is and everything we are trying to do in the world has their fingerprints on it trying to do us in. These billions of dollars will be put back in their hands in im told, about nine months. And it doesnt matter what we do, congress go ahead and do your thing, it doesnt matter, because we dont have control over this matter, and it was the other people sitting at the table that have control over the money and no matter what we do they will release the billions of dollars. Well, i got to tell you, this is a very heavy lift when you sleep at night and you say, well i am going to vote to release, and people are trying to kill our allies. To say to be able to walk away from this and say that this is a good deal with ludicrous. With all due respect you guys have been bamboozled and the American People are going to pay for that. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator boxer. Can we respond at all to any of that . [ laughter ] my time is up, mr. Chairman. I suspect we will hear lots of responses. Isnt there time built in for answers or comments . I want to make sure this gets a full and fair hearing. Let me start at the beginning here the comment was made that what is it naive if you think this is a good deal. This is an article from the washington post. I urge you all to read it. How the iran deal is good for israel according to israelis who know what they are talking about. I urge you to read it. It says here a host of prominent security establishments came out in support of the obama administrations efforts. In an interview this week with the daily beast, the former head of israel top Security Agency suggests israel politicians were playing with fears and a fearful society and he praised it as a measure to curb the iranian threat. I dont think he is tphaunaive. He praised the former chief of israels spy agency hailed obamas victory. Folks, you can throw it around, and senator you said we had them exactly where we wanted them 19,000 centrifuges and enough materials for 10 to 12 bombs . Is that where we wanted them . What was the purpose of the sanctions . To dismantle their operation. I was chairman when we passed those sanctions and our purpose was to bring them to negotiations so we negotiated. I guarantee you, the first 15 years you have unbelievable restraints that make it impossible to even think about making a bomb. They can think about it but cant do anything about it. So at the end of 15 years, you have every option that you have today. Your decision is whether you want those 15 years to be right now or take the 15 years and figure out whether or not this is going to work. Thats really the choice. I dont know what you mean by we had them right where we wanted them. To what end. Giving you a talking point with the 19,000 sepbcentrifuges, ten of which are operating, but we all know they are antiques. They are antiques. We all talk about the number of centrifuges but this deal lays out their ability to continue research and development on the hour sixes and eight, and year eight they can industrial that for a peaceful program. Let me finish. I let you talk. They said the ir 8 is their future, and ir 1 doesnt operate most of the time and its slow and they want to get rid of those. They did a masterful job to get the west and other countries to focus on something over here that is of no use to them while they are able to draft them an agreement that allows them a pathway so they could put in a covert facility and enrich in levels and pace they never can imagine. With that, secretary boxer. Mr. Chairman, if i may add, i must say every element of the rnd program is rolled back in time. The fact is they right now they are very active in all of these areas and its significantly delayed. Thats a fact. And it is a fact in year eight they are given that time in year eight, and thats why the president said in year its an incorrect characterization, and i apologize, but in year eight they are in industrial activity and its a small cascade they can start to do years after their current plans. And many people thought it was going to take that long to have the capacity to do that. As i mentioned from a standpoint there, they have been brilliant. I dont think there is one person involved that doesnt believe iran is a bad actor, and so thats why i believe we need to curb their Nuclear Ambitions. I think its essential. I dont think the American People want another war and at the end of the day i know some disagree with this. I think thats at the end of the day, thats really the option. Which everybody tiptoes around. Now, you know i support the right of my colleagues to say anything they want but you have sat there and you have heard two of my colleagues go after you with words that i am going to repeat. You were fleeced. One said. The other said you have been bamboozled. So putting aside the fact that i think thats disrespectful and insulting, thats their right to do. There are other ways to express your disagreement, but that goes to your core as a human being and your intelligence, and i think you are highly intelligent. Let me ask you, and if you could answer yes or no and i know its hard for you, secretary kerry for you to do so because were senators and its not our way and then i can get through the rest of my list. So my colleagues think you were fleeced and bamboozled and that means everybody was fleeced and bamboozled, everybody, almost everybody in the world. I want to ask you does the