You are watching booktv on cspan2. Host [inaudible conversations] cement welcome to the 31st annual Chicago Tribune printers row fest. And todays program is broadcast live on cspan2 booktv if there is time at the end of the presentation we will take questions and had to line up by the microphone so the audience can hear the questions. Keep the spirit going yearround as the subscription to the journal in for more information on of lit fest also please post to all social media. Please silence your cellphone two turn off your camera flash shed with that plea is will come pulitzer prizewinning columnist for the Chicago Tribune. [applause] district banks for coming i was telling john that i think this would be for the most interesting conversations of the weekend [applause] but before we get to that and wanted to you how i met jonathan eig we were trying to figure out to the late 80s as days southern correspondent in bad rouge louisiana and i went to the currency basement and there was an eager young reporters sitting there and got to know him a little bit occasionally he would send me story ideas and then you really realize the device to the kid reporter because he may turn out to be somebody important. [laughter] so to talk about the of Birth Control pill. He has written about new garett, al capone those are sort of guy topics why the Birth Control pill . Guest i get that question a lot. Al capone was one of nine children it is a logical segue but the truth is my wife said to a book that women might want to read for a change. Then i remembered i heard a sermon ted are 12 years ago that they made the case the most important invention and i thought there must have been others but then the more i thought about it stayed with me that it transformed the world overnight to change human dynamics what a family means womens ability to control their bodies and their lives as a result of this one invention all i knew is it to be 50s and 60s i had very little knowledge why would a man invent such as saying . So how could that have happened . I looked into the subject the scientist was a man but to remember vitally involved there were all outside respect and rebels and had nothing to lose and also doing something illegal that it was such a great story i had to know more. Host your subtitle is how four crusaders reinvented sex and launched a revolution give us a synopsis of those four people. Guest the doctor is banished from harvard san tonight ten year even though they did their views were the most brilliant scientist that has ever been there he was working on in vitro in the 30s to bribe some day science will control the reproductive process. He brags about it that makes people uncomfortable and harbored let him go. He tries to start his own laboratory taking any money he can get to do any research to reestablish his career and meets Margaret Sanger who is a crusading rebel who is character number two. Since the early part of the century she says women need to control their bodies so they can have sex for fun and take control of their lives and that will not happen until they have a better form of Birth Control she says rita miracle tablet to turn on and off the reproductive systems and she has it in her mind she can do to make it work. You can take it every day and stop taking it every scientist says it will not work for then science doesnt bet and advanced enough she is actually 71 windy winter when she invent meets the scientists he says i can come up with a couple thousand dollars that is good enough to get it started then the third character is catherine Dexter Mccormick who was also olds in her 70s with nothing to do whatever money but she gives it all to find the cause blood dash project entirely on her own. Remember it was illegal in the 50s it has never been done they try to create a pill that is a high risk venture likely to fail and. Host Birth Control of all kind . Except condoms because they were for men who can do whatever they want. But it is put in with the pornography law created after other the civil war but we dont want women to have too much fun it is just for procreation and daschle a matter singer went to jail many times because she continued to distribute contraception. And and they cannot go the bell this traditionally they cannot ask for government funding and they cannot even do Clinical Trials how do they test it . What company will make it . They fly by the seat of their pants. Host you have your scientists have Birth Control crusader and then number four . Somebody direction knows how womens bodies were. Pinkus is just a scientist you need a gynecologist who could run the Clinical Trials sumacs a technical you to get a catholic gynecologist . [laughter] he happened to be the most respected fertility specialist. Key was my aunts doctor she told mrs. The other day she is very excited. [laughter] so he says i think that progesterone could work as the Birth Control pill because he explains it in simple terms the woman already has contraception which she is pregnant she cannot get pregnant again so free give it to her electric the body to thinking she is already pregnant so lets try experimenting with progesterone and images this to the gynecologist he says i have already done if i have a theory it could help them mature so those who are seeking help getting pregnant those who are infertile for already trying it and pinkus is thrilled because women are not dropping dead. [laughter] check one thing off the list [laughter] so it might work and help them get pregnant later when they stop it he calls it the rebound you could tell there very good marketing and promotion to think big and pinkus says give you find more we give for gesture on to . They find gynecologists around the area to save the women you have got tried to get prelates give it to them but was not tell them why so you will hear a lot of this of scientific risktaking that would never be acceptable to day but well within the bounds of acceptability in the fifties for the very first women receive the Birth Control pill that was still in the injection were women trying to get pregnant. That is irony. Host so the bookstores in 1950 with the counter with Margaret Sanger but take us back before that and talk to us about the effect of world war ii of the opening of ideas of sexuality. Guest we tend to think that nobody had any fun until hugh hefner started playboy with the pill and the sexual revolution started but it really starts a lot earlier even in the late part of the twenties when women begin to control how many women they had to deny there husbands sex then they become active in local politics because they managed to do that by controlling family size. Roles were to is another huge event because women have more freedom in general they are put into the workforce put out before marriage and had romantic relationships and had sex with no people a people they have no intention to marry. Was risky but nevertheless when men come home from the warehouse, where men are not content to quit their jobs and not sure they want to give up to have fun to 18. Host also the men in the war have encountered sex in a new way. They were having some fun the government gave out millions of condoms because they understood that men needed a release in they were enjoying the services of prostitutes and they also had begun to feel like it is not just for kids or necessarily wait for marriage to enjoy it. Host so there is a shift of both parts on what sex is forced to review meeting will be holding them back is pregnancy that makes it oh little less fun. Host going back to the beginning of time with the women were looking for ways to. Abortion was the number one form of Birth Control for thousands of years just by brutal methods that resulted in death but the contraception people would use half of the of 11 for a cervical cap for crocodile done or witch doctors thought might work with edward desperate. That is to understand why they would take these enormous risk to do the back alley abortion you have to understand how terrible it was to get pregnant when they could not afford to have a more children or their bodies could not handle it. Margaret sanger died after 11 children and eight teen pregnancies that was not uncommon just to be worn out to have their bodies used up by pregnancy. Host with the 1950s world war ii had begun to change peoples perception of what sex is or might be or what contraception can be. So tell us about how the experiments proceed. It is the guy who runs the show to figure out how to make this happen. There is no prescribed path there is not a pill for Healthy People but you dont see the development of a major drug conducted by outsiders for they cannot go to the government or university backing or even a drug company to get the companies he needs and they say make sure our name does not show up on anything we will do not even knowing you. It is not on the bottle for gods sake for the papers will leave later when they see that women are craving says and willing to try it they say maybe we will get involved but he is really out on his own to the an established dr. But they found john rock theyre both of the boston area just from scientific meetings everybody knew him he was a famous and the superstar in the world of ob gyn so they would take a chance but pinkus is out to prove he is right to restore his reputation but john rocks ambition is he believes sex is good married couple should enjoy it for fun he is catholic and goes to mass every day believes the churches wrong that women need ability to control their body and thinks if you come up with the right contraceptive the Catholic Church make change its mind you laugh because the rhythm method has been approved by john rock thinks that they can embrace the rhythm method and he believes it is natural progesterone is natural so why couldnt the bill be a natural form . And he believes that it is possible he can pull this off not only to an event to the pill to put it on the market but to change the Catholic Church of view and that is what he is after. It is a remarkable crusade that for people on their own that they cared to want to change the world in ways they never expected. They really believed they were dropping a bomb. To know that from the onset is extraordinary. So john rock gives it to his patients theyre not fully apprised of the purpose they know what theyre taking but they dont know exactly why. Give the boss said area to find 50 or 60 women to find a drug that women would take every day for years and years you need a test subjects. To realize there are Birth Control clinics all over the island because the genesis because that Movement Even though it is catholicism very comfortable so we could test it down here. Outside of the United States law. With talented american doctors it seems like a great possible solution. Host another woman who plays a significant role tell us about her. Dr. Ray who decides after her divorce she doesnt want to practice in chicago but do something to help support and moves with her children to begin medical work in the slums of p. R. She agrees to help from the trials to take the pill to women in puerto rico word gets around doctors are offering a new contraceptive. Host they are telling these women it is a contraceptive. But they dont tell them it is experimental. The americans are bringing it to us that must be okay. There would not sign the forms like we would today. But the side effects are terrible they did not care how six the women got to make sure nobody got pregnant so they had to ramp up those doses but dr. Ray was complaining to say shut this down it is terrible the side effects though women are miserable but pinkus did not care. He was trying to get enough numbers to prove that it worked as the word got around the Catholic Church realized it was tested and they began to give sermons every sunday we want to remind you it is a san then every monday the line would be even longer. [laughter] it is important to note that at every stage when women found out they would raise their hand when can we get it . The side effects were concerns but having a child was a greater concern that they would say we need this eventually that convinced people to get involved. Host but there is something disconcerting to read the book. To call that suspense build. And it is very disconcerting of the four women in puerto rico and women and hospitals. It is concerning. Pinkus and rock would make the argument we do know the sideeffects of pregnancy and women died from an unwanted pregnancy. As people are forced into poverty so we know those side effects that is how they justified it. But keep in mind there with them the normal. Like an undercover drug deal the he is endeavoring samples having someone drives a urine sample and day trade that off. It is remarkable to think about how crazy this was. There is a point to attend the International Planned parenthood convention to announce they created the Birth Control panel and pinkus disagrees. He loves attention and believes he will change the world and he says wait to have only tested this on 60 women you cannot tell the world it is suicide. But he goes anyway and it tells the world and it appears said newspapers all over the world of worlds first oral contraception has arrived for gore has a better prove gore tested but it was the incredible risk it alerted the government and the Catholic Church but women all over the country began to demand it. I wanted now. Unbelievably sad letters and pinkus was literally mailing it to his friends and relatives you needed it. Host who was manufacturing at that point . Guest node names. They finally ask for approval but pinkus does not say it only on 160 women he said 1,600 cycles that sounds better. They dont ask for approval to regulate womens cycles but not Birth Control the fda approves it that the bottle has to carry a warning it may prevent pregnancy. [laughter] you cannot ask for a better advertising now women go to their doctors by the tens of thousands to say i heard there is of pill for the regular menstrual cycle they walked into the Doctors Office with nine children the doctors are calling their pages to say i have something you might be interested in and changes the world because women say we want this. Is what were waiting for. Host at what point did it come out of the closet . Guest by the late 50s by now Everybody Knows the secret and uses it off label by the 1960s they go back to the fda remember that bill for minstrel cycles . We would like to add a use it is also good for Birth Control and after much debate day approve it decided to also approved it had 11 children. Host and so talkedabout mr. Searle. He saw for himself how the women were suffering the average woman had 6. Five children in the 1950s. He saw these families and became a believer. Singer believes sex was important but smart enough to recognize that was not the best way to sell it but hoped to control population and growth at the time people were concerned it was growing too fast and foster communism and population control was a much more acceptable cause so he got on board with that. Host i actually will let you read this because it is an interesting passage where this crusade could make life better for women leads commerce. Gold mine to the company that offered it first. Here was a pill a woman would take every day for years in sickness and in health. If if worked won approval and didnt make women sick and became poplar or socially acceptable millions of women might each consume 240 tablet as year at a price of 50 cents a bill. It would be the biggest product he brought to market and they paid nothing for it up to this point because mccormick carried much of the cost of develop. That is how innovation happens happens, ladies and gentlemen. It aint pretty. Paul was working on something as well . There were a lot of scientist trying to figure out hormones work. We began to search for ways to make it cheaply and people in mexico found you can make progesterone from yams. A couple different Chemical Companies were trying to make it at the same time and there was great competition to see who would get it first. They chose another scientist formula for progesterone. Once sural came out you saw other Companies Jumping on board trying to compete and catch up. So at what point did the pill become the pill . It is the first product in america that did not need a name. There is no such thing as the car or the sofa. And it becomes the bill for a couple reasons. Women are not sure what to say when they go into the Doctors Office. And because it is so different than what came before. All of the different forms of contraception were things you had to fumble with during the sex act. And the pill was so completely different you were able to identify it by the fact it was a pill. It was the pill. It was so important to women it didnt need a name. I think between 6768 you see it changing society and you see woman waiting to get married and have children and instantly you see the number of women going to college creeping up you see the number of women graduating and going to post graduate school creeping up. And women on College Camps all really very quickly as i said before it is pretty unusual to see New Invention change the world so dramatically. The response, its one of the really important things we dont talk about much. We talk about the invention of the pill and how it changed the world, what Margaret Sanger to have women to have control. Birth control. The important word here is control, and the pill would give women control. It also gave men kind of a pass in a way that are not necessarily good. Because men are able to say well its her problem. And thats one i think, of the unfortunate side effects. But, you know, im ten years older than you are, i now reveal it, and one of the fascinating things to me about reading your book was growing up in the time when this was being invented, i grew up in a big catholic family. My mother had eight kids, there was no pill. Catholic. And when i got to college in california, all of a sudden all the girls were getting the pill at the health center. And that was my introduction to it. Its like oh, whoa, there is a pill . Whats that . And just, you know, and then once you knew you knew, and it felt like youd known forever. But really just, as you say, how quickly it all changed. Right there in the 50s. And how revolutionary it was. I think you can make an argument if the pill doesnt come along, we dont have Ruth Bader Ginsburg on the Supreme Court. Even sandra day oconnor. They were able to go to law school and start careers because were at an age and i dont know about their personal use of Birth Control, but theyre at an age when women are starting to be able to have make more choices for themselves, and the choices are not all controlled by the timing of their marriage. I think we may want to take some questions from the audience. Sure. Yeah . I asked jon, we were walking over here, about questions hed been asked, and he said hed never been asked anything that was too embarrassing about sex, is so dont break that now, okay . [laughter] thats okay, bring it on. [laughter] i though we have do we have a microphone here somewhere . Where are people going . Yeah. Right there. So while somebodys getting to the microphone, how did you find all this stuff out . Well, you know, the great thing about scientists, theyre way better than gangsters and Baseball Players about keeping records. [laughter] they wrote thousands of letters they saved every scrap of paper from their research. Margaret sanger and Katherine Mccormick wrote each other sometimes several letters a day so this was a gold mine for me x. Most of it was already archived and organized really nicely, so i was able to do a lot of my research at these libraries where the research, the archivists have already gone through these papers. Was there any information that was really hard to get aside from the dutiful work of getting it . I worked really hard to find women and find the children of women who were some of those early guinea pigs in the mental asylums and in pert rio and that was tough because you say, hi, i want to talk to you about the fact that your mom was in an insane asylum and may have been one of the first women tested as an experiment for the Birth Control pill. Well, you get a lot of hangups. [laughter] so it took a lot i had to get a lot were better at how i introduced myself before i got a few of them to stay on the phone and talk to me. Those stories were really moving, but those were hard to come by. Yeah. Hi. I have a question about the science when they moved from progesterone toest to general. I dont know if you covered that in your book. Yeah, its a great question. Pincus was scared to death of using estrogen. He knew they worked in similar ways but estrogen was thought to cause cancer so he avoided it as best they could. And when they were doing these experiments in puerto rico there was one period when they were cataloging all the results of the, that period, that cycle of tests and women were complaining a lot heads about the side effects less about the side effects. They werent getting as nauseous. He became confused, why all of a sudden are the numbers looking better . He asked sir ril to test cyril to test that batch of pills, and they had contaminated them with a small amount of estrogen. Pincus said, well, keep that in there now, and lets see what happens. [laughter] so they began using a combination of progesterone and estrogen, so it was one of those great accidents of science. A great, great book. We discussed it at great length in our book club. Thank you. Fascinating book. This is sort of tangential. Clearly, there was a very interesting comment sort of the connection between the early work and eugenics. As one section. But, you know one of the things im same basic age as you are mary and i remember if youre of a certain age you remember lots of conversation when i was in college about, you know, zero population growth. Can you comment on what because that was clearly a motivator or some of the participants in the story. Can you comment on whats happening today in the world using the pill for sort of population control, you know, in all kinds of markets, especially in the underdeveloped world . Yeah. The Birth Control pill did not do everything that Margaret Sanger thought it would, and it certainly didnt work the you eugenicists thought it would because it did not help much in poor parts of the world. It became something that was enormously popular among middle class and upper class women who could afford to pay for it and who could visit their doctors regularly and get prescriptions refilled every month. But in, you know, remote parts of the world where access to health care wasnt good, the pill did not have the same kind of effects so obviously it did not help reduce population, the population explosion the way people thought it would. And as far as your question about the eugenicists its really a messy business, and youll hear people complain that Margaret Sanger was a racist because of her willingness to ally herself with the eugenicists. I think its very complicated as most people are. And certainly in the 1930s and 40s most peoples relations with race were complicated. You know, we were a very racist society. She, on the one hand opened clinics in harlem and had w. E. B. Duboise on her board. On the other hand she absolutely welcomed the support of the Eugenics Movement because they were powerful, because theyd already done some of the work she was hoping to do, and she saw in them a useful ally. Whether she herself was racist or not, i dont think she was any more racist than the average White American at that time. Thats not to excuse some of the deals she made and things she said, but i think we need to understand the complexity of those kinds of issues back then. Id like to also thank you for the book, for a great discussion and it really does stimulate a lot of good conversation. To me, one of the things that i found most interesting was published at the same time, i think, the hobby lobby ruling came out and i wonder if you could talk a little bit about the controversy that its hard to believe almost 60 years later, theres no resolution, it seems, particularly with now the overthecounter possibility of the pill. Maybe you could speak about that. Yeah. A lot of people say to me, wow, its great timing when hobby lobby was coming out. I wasnt really smart or anything about it [laughter] you can pretty much count on the fact that theres going to be controversy over Birth Control anytime you publish a book, which is sad, the fact that were still having these fights, still basically arguing over whether a woman should have the right to control her own body and make these decisions for herself is ridiculous. If these were questions thank you, whoevers clapping back there. Police[applause] if this were a question addressed to men if men were being told by politicians they couldnt control their own bodies, it would not go over very well. So i think its really rooted in just flat out sexism. And id like to i know Margaret Sanger and all these people involved in the creation of the pill would be horrified that were still debating that now. Jon have you faced any political backlash or specifically political response to your book . No, not really. Its been surprisingly pleasant. I mean, ive had really nice, smart commentary from very conservative publications, from religious organizations. I think people have really used the book as a chance to discuss these issues. And because i try to really stay right down the middle, i dont take a side. Obviously, i think you can read between the lines and see that i think Birth Controls been good for society and that women should have access to it, but i tried to write the book as straight a history as i could. Yes sir. As you say the cultural questions go on and on, but you had said earlier on that the contraception, contraceptives were illegal early on when this whole process started that youre talking about. Were statutory changes preceding the pill or were they pushed by the advance of the drug . Thats a great question. It was really the drug that moved the ball forward in many ways. Thats something you see throughout american history, our actions change, and then the law catches up to it. So women began using Birth Control, using it openly even telling their priests, yeah ive got to disagree with you on this one im going to go with the pill. Finally, in 1965 in griswold v. Connecticut, the Supreme Court affirmed women have a right the Birth Control as part of their right to privacy which was an unusual constitutional argument. It was the first time that argument had been made, but it was hugely important and it opened the door and really, i think it was very much an example of women speaking up for themselves and saying we need this, and then the law found a way to catch up. I got here a little late so if you covered this already, i apologize. My first question is what prompted you to write this book, and number two, in all of your research what surprised you the most if there was something that stood out. I did mention earlier that i was prompted just by how incredible the story was, and i think that ties into part two of your question, what surprised me the most. What surprised me was they were able to pull this off. [laughter] they never should have been able to do it, it was ridiculous. Think about it, four people with no Government Support no university support with one woman writing the check for the entire process testing something thats illegal. Its mindboggling that they pulled it off and that, to me, is the biggest surprise. You know, i think it goes to show what a few people can accomplish when theyre willing to take chances. I think we have time for maybe one more question. Its a quick one. Besides the corporation, did the original people in it profit . Thats another really good question. No, none of these four heroes made any money on this. And pincus was in a position to. He might have tried to patent this himself, but he never did. And part of the reason for that was he believed it was important to get this done as fast as possible, that we needed to get this in the hands of women and the best way to do that was to let g. D. Cyril take the money. If they were motivated by profit, they might be willing to take the chance and bring this drug to the market. The other reason, again, there was a lot of sneaky, slimy stuff going on. Pincus was also taking money from cyril, so i think he was worried he might get into some legal issues because he was in some ways, an employee of the company. So, as usual, it was not neat and tidy and you cant wrap it up in a ribbon and say that pincus was being unselfish. But he did ultimately, do the right thing. And had he tried to control the patent and profit from it, it might never have been released. So thats again, historys messy sometimes. Most of the time. Jon, were still talking about this book, but youre writing your next book, right . Can we ask you what its about . Yeah, sure. Im working on the biography of muhammad ali. T